If Dean is electable why can't he win a primary?

[DJcairo]

I've noticed many people on DU saying they think Dean would make the best GE candidate because he would ber the clearest alternative to Bush and would inspire base voters to get out and vote. However, it seems to me Iowa and NH pretty much wasted that notion.

Can we all agree on this and put this behind us?

Dean is clearly not electable and it seems very doubtful that he will get to be the nominee. It's a good thing some Dems went through buyers' remorse now and not in November 04'.

[Tweed]

1. Good point

At least Edwards and Clark will probably win in at least one state

[dsc]

2. He won DC

but since the voters there are black I guess that doesn't count.

[knight_of_the_star]

6. THAT is VERY racist on your part sir!

All I can say is HOW DARE YOU!

[dsc]

7. It is called sarcasm

I am not the one claiming the DC Victory doesn't count the original poster is.

[arwalden]

55. I Think I Know DSC Well Enough To Be Able To Spot His SARCASM

... trust me, that little throw-away comment of his was sarcasm and irritation at how the results of the DC primary were almost totally ignored by EVERYONE.

Minus any sarcasm-on-off tags and without any rolling-eyes emoticons, I can understand how you'd misinterpret it. I can assure you that DSC is not your enemy.

-- Allen

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. I thought it was nonbinding and the real caucus is on Valentine's Day

http://www.politics1.com/calendar.htm

[DJcairo]

37. Wait a minute...only four of them were on the ballot

[dsc]

38. Which means Kerry was too afraid to even complete

After all DC didn't ban him from running. He chose not to. He was afraid it is as simple as that.

[Octafish]

52. Kerry knows no fear...

...except that of letting his country, family or self down.

[jab105]

3. Media...

n/t

[PVnRT]

4. Yep, two primaries

That decides everything. No need to let anyone else in the country vote. :eyes:

Why are people so offended that anyone would support Dean? Seems to me you people are afraid - you want him to drop out pretty quickly. Why is that?

[mdmc]

11. Why is that?

We want your support! Dean is the only team to really build a nationwide organization very early in the campaign.

This is a courtship ritual. We want you. It's like third grade; we tease the girls we like.

Nice handle. :~)

[eileen from OH]

28. And IOWA WAS NOT A PRIMARY

(sorry for the caps). Iowa was a loosey-goosey, non-documented, political free-for-all, with vote swapping, and arm-twisting, and deal-making. Great politics. Lousy as a true referendum. Not a vote was cast.

How it ever got to receive the prominence and importance that it now enjoys, I do not know. I personally think it sucks.

Seems like you have to move to Iowa or New Hampshire to ever have a say in who gets nominated in this country.

eileen from OH

[MarkTwain]

5. Great question....

.... and since I don't look good in blue, I'm not holding my breath for a dispassionate, objective, and politically mature answer from the candidate.

[frustrated_lefty]

8. Exit poll

In NH they asked who do you think stands up for what he believes in. Response: 17% for Kerry, 60% for Dean.

Spin that however you want.

[On the Road]

9. Are You Kidding?

No, of course we can't agree on that. Not unless you're assuming that Dean has the weight of both party organizations and the media against him. Yes, that might make him unelectable.

Just think: George W Bush was elected. Or close. That means he is "electible." You think Bush is and Dean isn't? You've been listening to Fox rather than listening to the candidate himself.

[Hoppin_Mad]

10. You're asking this after TWO primaries ?

---

 
     We've just BEGUN to fight !     

[MarkTwain]

13. Actually, this is being asked ....

... after two primaries and the recent announcement by the candidate's "CEO" that he is going to defer on the next two weeks of primaries in multiple states - which, by default now, he will not win.

Someone should tell Dean that the mark of a good Doctor is to know when to call the "time of death." Because this candidacy has been in the morgue for the last week.

[Hoppin_Mad]

16. Yup - This sure looks like a morgue

Today in AZ.

---

 
     We've just BEGUN to fight !     

[MarkTwain]

24. Oh, Puuuuleeze....

... I could show you the same compressed shot and staged scene right out of the Karl Rove scrapbook. We criticize the shrub for it all the time.

Dean is toast: Firing his Campaign Director. Campaign treasury depleted; no money. Irrational outbursts that made him the laughing stock of the country for a solid week. Defaulting on the next two weeks of primaries. Further irrational and mean spirited challenges to his fellow primary candidates. A wife that will never weather well on the overwhelming political stage that is a national campaign for the Presidency in the general.

Not to mention the fact which is known to all: he is just not electable in November. Plain and Simple.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MarkTwain]

45. My regrets...

... that there seems to be a gross naivete specific to the realities of the modern American political dynamic and how it is practiced in the "big time."

Appropriate or not, in the general election, this country elects a "family," not just an individual man. Like it or not, they elect a carefully packaged "image." Mrs. Dean has indicated that she prefers not to be part of this "image," regardless of the cost to her husband's candidacy. That's the fact, plain and simple.

Mrs. Dean failed miserably in her outing with him in his most recent attempt to repair a mortally damaged candidacy. That's the fact, plain and simple.

Mrs. Dean has demonstrated, historically throughout Mr. Dean's life, a singular disinterest in participating in the political aspects of his life. This unwillingness on her part to be an active and visible component of his candidacy is but another critical failing of that candidacy. That's the fact, plain and simple.

Just "wishing" these facts were otherwise will not make them so.

Oh and by the way, in the big time, regrettably nothing - absolutely nothing - is "out of bounds." You can be sure that Karl Rove knows that rule - even if the less politically practiced among us here fail to.

[fujiyama]

43. Lay off Dean's wife!

That's out of bounds, dammit!

[KFC]

12. The fact that Democrats won't vote for him makes him attractive in the GE

Because Republicans will think that he must be ok if Democrats reject him.

Dean, Dean - the tweaking machine!

[janx]

14. If we use your logic, that would make five other candidates

"unelectable" as well, wouldn't it?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seaglass]

19. I hope the Dean campaign isn't going with this strategy of

blaming everything but themselves for these losses, it's a losing strategy. Nobody votes for a self-proclaimed victim.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. So you endorse cheating then?

Why are you excusing such inexcusable behavior? What if these heinous acts were being employed against YOUR chosen candidate. I highly doubt you'd react the same way. If this is what Kerry is all about, I'd rather keep Bush, thanks. If I am going to be stuck with a dirty misearble cheat I'd rather have one that doesn't try to hide it than one who talks out of both sides of his mouth and is sneaky about it.

[seaglass]

27. The only evidence I have seen is one call made by a

campaign worker that was subsequently fired. Where's the rest of the evidence?

I don't condone dirty tactics but I also don't take Trippi's word for anything, I read the GQ piece; he's been out for Kerry since day one.

It's not just the dirty tricks, it's the blaming it on the media, the blaming it on voting machines in NH, the accusations that it's all a set-up by the DLC/DNC, it's the sheeple etc.

Totally ignoring the reports that the Dean campaigners on the ground in Iowa were unorganized and irritating people by visiting the same houses repeatedly. Totally ignoring all the rallies and attendees in Iowa who listened to what the candidates had to say. Totally ignoring Dean's faux pas about the value of Iowa caucuses. Totally ignoring anything that Kerry did positively to win.

If the Dean campaign really wanted to fix their problems they would look inside not outside.

[KaraokeKarlton]

30. Iowans were "irritated" by the 18 robocalls a day

that Kerry and Gephardt were making to Dean supporters pretending to be from Dean when the Dean campaign has NEVER used robocalls. We should be able to find the proof soon enough, because all the candidates have to itemize their campaign expenditures. It's quite easy to find out who was using robocalls and who wasn't by following the paper trail that we'll all get to look at soon enough. Better hope you're really confident that your guy wouldn't do this, because if it's found out by the media Kerry did it, he's finished.

[seaglass]

33. Luckily I have two back-up candidates. n/t

[Eloriel]

39. Whoaaa there

The only evidence I have seen is one call made by a"
campaign worker that was subsequently fired. Where's the rest of the evidence?

Hard to gather evidence on the robocalls. But some of us are trying to reach Iowans who may have been affected by this. The video is pretty convincing, and the article even describes the conversation with the young man's supervisor -- and he was none too contrite.

It's not just the dirty tricks, it's the blaming it on the media, the blaming it on voting machines in NH, the accusations that it's all a set-up by the DLC/DNC, it's the sheeple etc.

Do NOT confuse Dean supporters here with "the campaign." The campaign hasn't, for example, said a word about the NH Voting machines. Not one single word. No one in the Campaign has said anything about a DLC/DNC "set up." But the evidence that the DLC has been gunning for Dean from the beginning has been evident from their own published articles. That may or may not be a "set up" (whatever you mean by that anyway), but it's a FACT.

Totally ignoring the reports that the Dean campaigners on the ground in Iowa were unorganized and irritating people by visiting the same houses repeatedly. Totally ignoring all the rallies and attendees in Iowa who listened to what the candidates had to say. Totally ignoring Dean's faux pas about the value of Iowa caucuses. Totally ignoring anything that Kerry did positively to win.

If the Dean campaign really wanted to fix their problems they would look inside not outside.

The Dean campaign is quite clear about its own faults. An awful lot of discussion about it was posted by supporters to the blog. Don't be so quick to condemn something you apparently know nothing about.

And here's what Kerry (and perhaps others) did "positively" to win:

* Push polling
* Robocalling Dean supporters at all hours of the night
* Osama bin Laden ad
* Vilsack machine in the Iowa caucus
* Gephardt-Kerry deal, Kucinich-Edwards deal (yeah, perfectly legal and all that -- but please don't try to pass them off as anything but Party Insiders working damn hard to STOP DEAN AT ALL COSTS)
* Sending Dean supporters to the wrong locations for the caucus in Iowa -- and I'm hearing the same thing is happening in New Mexico too

and the one that infuriates me the MOST:

* Co-opt every bit of Dean's message, then go into fearmongering mode n order to try to convince voters that Kerry is more electable. 56% of Kerry's votes in NH were on electability. Dean is going to have to come out swinging hard on this issue because it's just NOT true that Kerry is more electable, and people are obviously so scared of Bush that Kerry-with-Dean's-message plus his fearmongering for votes gave him two big wins.

[Desertrose]

40. you mean Kerry-with-Dean who took Kucinich's-message

don't you??

Plenty of DK's message has been "borrowed " and passed off as Dean's. If the meida had been reporting on DK the way they reported on Dean- everyone else would be aware of that by now,too.

Feel a bit different when the shoe is on the other foot....?

peace
DR

[DemBones DemBones]

49. How right you are, DR. n/t

[KaraokeKarlton]

54. What on earth are you talking about?

that's not in any way true and I think it's safe to say that everyone knows that. Kerry and Edwards both have pirated Dean's message almost entirely.

[seaglass]

50. Notice that I said that in my first post that I hope the

campaign is not going with the strategy of blaming everyone else.

If Dean is a little bit more astute than many of his supporters on this site and others then he has a chance, if he's going with the whining and blaming everyone else (and he has done some of this) it's a loser.

Yep, I've read the Dean blog - and you know what, there were a number of Dean supporters that thought the Iowa speech was bad for Dean. But only one supporter that I saw here admitted on the night that it happened that it made Dean look bad, everyone else is in denial. I understand that if someone is enamored by Dean they will see this in a more positive light, but the idea is to get people to vote for you that aren't already committed - so it does matter what others think.

I've also read a report by an Iowa campaign worker that in at least one district the wrong caucus locations were listed in both the local newspaper and the website. But then that would mean that it wasn't anyone else's fault that people went to the wrong place.

Dean doesn't own Democratic issues, I have no idea why you would think he's the only one allowed to talk about them.

[emulatorloo]

22. You have nooooooo proof for this

ABC article is not proof. This has come up before.

This is your speculation. My speculation is that these are repub dirty tricks designed to discredit both dean and kerry.

[KaraokeKarlton]

25. There is some proof

For starters, there is a video and audio of the Kerry campaign worker saying a bunch of this nasty stuff to a Dean supporter. The guy got fired over it and the Kerry campaign tried to claim he was acting on his own, yet many other people got calls with essentially the same exact script being used.

Two Kerry operatives came into a NH Dean office and pretended to be out of state Dean supporters and stole the Dean NH supporter list... the very names who were getting the calls in NH. They were later discovered to be Kerry operatives. The dirty sneak is going to get caught soon enough, and when he is caught he'll never hold public office again.

[arewethereyet]

17. so you're basing this on his appeal to Democrats only ?

what about all the every other sort of voter he is supposed to have mystical control over ? You didn't expect them to come vote in two cold weather primaries did you ? Besides the Dean faithful were busy at home watchig their numbers pop up on the internet and were clearly too busy to be bothered to actually vote.

Hey, its like this, the emperor does not realize that his new cloths are... well, you get it.

[retyred]

18. Because he's not

:shrug:


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[MurikanDemocrat]

20. Premature. There are still 48 more states.

[zulchzulu]

26. There is no point in bringing this fact up

Wait until the results next Tuesday for more excuses about how Dean losing in large numbers is due to voters being "ignorant", "stupid", "closet Republicans", "DLC insiders", "Skull and Bones secret soldiers"...

You get the drill. It can't be Howard. It's somebody else to blame.

[Zomby Woof]

29. IT'S THE MEDIA'S FAULT!

Always Excuse #1.

[deutsey]

53. Actually, it's the Democratic establishment, GOP and the media

Even before Iowa, the American Prospect (hardly a rightwing rag) said that it was no secret that the Democratic establishment types were going to do everything they could to stop Dean (I don't have the issue at hand, but it's the one with the clay figures of the Dem candidates running a race).

This is an interesting commentary on the corporate media and Dean:
http://blackcommentator.org/75/75_cover_dean_media.html

And there were the smears coming from both Democrats (the Osama ad) and the GOP (the leftwing freakshow ad) in Iowa.

[MercutioATC]

32. Jesus! Give it up! Some of us aren't willing to declare a winner after

only 2 states.

If what you're saying has the slightest bit of merit, shouldn't we just save a bunch of money and only have two events, the Iowa caucus and the N.H. primary?

[KFC]

35. Let's see how the little man will do next Tuesday

Sleeve-rolling should put Dean over the top. Or some screaming.

[MercutioATC]

36. Unfortunately, voting with Repubs WILL probably work to Kerry's

advantage...sad, if you ask me.

He had a chance THREE times in the past year (plus a couple of months) to be a real Democrat. He could have voted against the Patriot Act. He chose to support it. He could have voted against the IWR. He chose to support it. He could have voted against NCLB. He chose to support it. Each of these votes was one more nail in the coffin of the Democratic party. He robbed us of our ability to stand up as Democrats and declare these laws unamerican. HE did this.

Legislators like him are why me (and many others) had become ambivalent about politics. In the past ten years, there has been very little difference between Dems and Repubs as far as voting goes. Philosophies might differ, but very few Dems had the balls to stand up and make noise in the face of opposition. Kerry was one of these (and still is).

Of the current candidates, only Kucinich, Dean and Clark represent anything different. Personally, Dean makes the most sense to me, but ANY of these three is a better Democrat than Kerry.

[IndianaGreen]

34. If Kerry is electable, how come he can't hold the Left together?

There is no difference between a candidate that ordered the troops into Iraq and a candidate that cheered when the troops were ordered into Iraq.

What did Kerry do when the war began?

[freetempe]

42. Shhhh!

IndianaGreen, you're making too much sense by asking such an obvious question.

Kerry will divide the Left again, fail to motivate the base and lose to *, but thats just my educated guess.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. If the left -- and the Party -- doesn't hold together, it will be due

primarily to the actions of one candidate: the one who came into the race calling other Democrats "Bush-Lite" and has, in speeches this weekend,
asserted that there are two Republicans in the Democratic Party, Clark and Kerry, and that if Kerry is in a race against Bush, Kerry will just be the "lesser evil.

In other words, if Howard can't win the nomination -- and remember it's the voters who decide that -- he's going to do all he can to screw up the nominee's chances against taking our country back.

Isn't that just wonderful?

[mitchum]

41. That's the $40,000,000 question!

[frustrated_lefty]

44. Look at this from another perspective.

If Kerry is electable, why do one third of democrats on this forum say they would refuse to vote for him?

To answer your question, Dean hasn't won a primary because he has taken all the heat your guy is just beginning to feel.

[quaker bill]

46. Do I need to go to the archives

and find all the reasons posted here stating Kerry was "electable' when he was 20 points behind?

No we cannot agree.

Buyer's remorse happens in November. It comes back when Bush gets inaugurated Jan 20, 2005, and again when he restarts the draft in June 2005.

[JNelson6563]

47. OMG! The primaries are over!!

I must of slept throught them! Dean didn't win eh?

Oh wait, I see it is only Feb 1st and that I was merely reading wishful thinking and presumption.

Nevermind.

Julie

[Iverson]

51. ding ding ding ding!

You win what's behind curtain #3!

Ladies and gentlemen, Julie has just won the Wizard of Oz!

(music up)

:pals: