Some background stuff on the "cartoon crisis" (posted elsewhere before)

[Jemmons]

In the international discussion of this it is largely overlooked how the danish government really asked for this: For a number of years our political right wing have stayed in power on a "blame the immigrants"-agenda which is totally ignorant of the facts, but speaks to the gut of many people. This campaign has secured voters that are not benefiting from the "tax-break" policy of the government and not elevated by the danish "housing bubble". Hence, for a number of years there has been a sort of contest about who was most against immigrants and who could pass the most severe restrictions on anyone not born and raised in the country. Something which has brought a conflict with the EU human rights commissioner and sparked a number of grassroots movements.

When the the cartoons was made public in the right wing newspaper "Jyllands Posten" it raised a debate, but reactions mostly fitted the pattern of immigrant bashing and did not take into account that they were offensive not only to the immigrants but also to a billion muslims worldwide. Only when boycott campaigns were launched in the middle east did the government change its tune and slowly realized that it had to respond and perhaps even learn from these reactions.

Right to free speech is wonderful but it must be exercised within some rules of moderation. The whole point of free speech is that "might is not right" and you have to defend that point if free speech is not just an empty exercise.


The assumption of innocence is so easy to make but in this case it is clearly, evidently and totally wrong. There is nothing innocent about the cartoons and they don't have any belonging to the "beloved Danish tradition of satirical humor". Not only were they calculated to maximize anger but they are publicized in a context of right wing campaign to blame muslim immigrants for the loss of pension rights, unemployment and bad education for children.

The main reason that the paper is now apologizing is probably that big corporations like Mærsk that practically owns Denmark are twisting their arm: Its bad business to insult your business partners. And so Jyllandsposten returns to what common sense should have dictated, if they had not been so blinded by ideology and self-glorification.

The most glaring mistake people make about this is the assumption of "joker rules": It is assumed that Jyllandsposten is playing the role of the "Joker", who is allowed to make the painful points to the ones in power, that others will not make because of fear of consequences. The "beloved Danish tradition of satirical humor" is based on these spacial rules for the "Joker", who is protected and appreciated for his special role.

The reversal of this is when the King employs a "Joker" to tell his people the nasty things that he clearly thinks but he will not be on record for saying. This reversal makes the Joker a lackey and the real joke is that the lackey in this case only got the wrath of his king and no laughs.


To me this is all about immense stupidity!

The stupidity of the newspaper initiating this, Jyllandsposten, which should have know better.
The stupidity of the danish government for not handling the crisis when it was just a story.
The stupidity of the muslims blaming the danish government, when it should blame the newspaper.
The immense stupidity of the islamists threatening anything or anybody danish.
The stupidity of debaters who confuse being political correct with having no freedom of press.
The stupidity of the danish "blame the immigrants for whatever" -campaign.
The stupidity of the violent response on part of the muslims in the middle east.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. And on another level...

how insecure are these Islamists when they believe their religion is maligned by a cartoon?

The whole thing is idiotic.

[esbelt]

2. So many false facts in one speech is

in fact why we now are facing burning embassies etc. I think that your statements about Denmark and the Danish people most be out of an better childhood or something.
I live also in DK and I don't see what you so bitterly are describing.
Remember that we do in fact have the following:

The fact is that Denmark is the oldest democracy in the world (more than 150 years)
we are number one in the world when it comes to aid to the "third world" (based on BNP)
we are the strongest supporter in Europe for a independent Palestine state.
We are having true free religion for all people here.

But we also have a strong believe in free speech, so everything that is said about the
felling about the pictures, comes down to one fact.... it is the right of the paper here!

you may dislike or even get angry of the pictures, then you can write to the paper or make a
comment in any published media, and use your right of speech, to criticize it, but in DK
you have this rights and we will fight for this.

And were do you get the info on Mearsk ???? this we were holding as facts in the kindergarten when we were talking of the state DK !!!

so if you really think we are close to be the most neo-nazi state in the world, I most have missed a real deal !

[neweurope]

3. It's really surprising how many countries claim to be the oldest

democracy in the world ;)

I agree with Jemmons. Those drawings were immensely stupid, derogatory, inciting hate. I'm a journalist by profession and I'll be the first to speak out for the free press and free speech. But as Jemmons said: You have to use this right within a certain limit. Abusing rights - as has happened in this case - is not to be excused.

In a time where the trenches between Muslim and "Christian" widen daily (trenches I would have thought impossible in this day and age only three years ago) those "cartoons" are abominable. And let's stop saying "it's stupid of the Muslims to be so incensed". Everybody knows they are - so why do it? What is there to be gained by it? Nothing. By the way: I am NOT muslim, and I felt insulted by them.

And Jemmons didn't call Denmark "the most neo-nazi state in the world". And you certainly aren't. I, German, admire Denmark very much for a number of reasons. But I also know that a lot of Danes, like a lot of Germans, have problems with immigration and use immigrants for their own political means. I have Danish friends - members of the conservative party - who told me this.

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[esbelt]

5. just remember the full story!

but you have to know the stories behind the pictures.
Here in Denmark a writer had published a new book on the religion Islam, He failed to find any cartoonists to make
any pictures in his book, simply out of fear!
then the newspaper Jylland-posten took up the story of Salmon Rushdie etc. and asked the question if simple cartoon pictures would be censured out of fear in DK.
so they asked some professional cartoonists to make a picture and printed them out of respect of our free speech.
The paper have now made several apologizes and they have published that in fact we do not have free speech in DK
simply because they regret it and would never had don it if they had calculated the effect!

It is not the "art" or the outlook of the pictures that is the issue in DK, more than the fact that we do not have free speech when it comes to fear and religion!
And it is not just a "stupid" news-paper who is making some "stupid" pictures, without a international, and for the press, "hot" subject.

[neweurope]

7. If no cartoonists were found for this book maybe it wasn't

fear but the good old Danish good sense and fair play! (I hope)

"Jylland-posten took up the story of Salmon Rushdie etc. and asked the question if simple cartoon pictures would be censured out of fear in DK." - that alone is provocative. And they are not "simple cartoon pictures"! They depict Muslims as dumb and violent, they are very derogatory to a large part of world population - and a tiny part of your own population. And if that ISN'T the issue in Denmark then the country isn't as great as I always thought :(


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[esbelt]

9. You say

that you are a journalist, then you most agree that "tomorrow" when you are making a story that implicated muslim and there look at our world, you will think twice before writing any "non-sacred" lines about there belives... that is censorship in my mind!

[neweurope]

12. As part of my self-esteem as a journalist is the fact that one

must never be derogatory I do not think that I will ever have a problem. Believe me, I do not feel censored. Other, sometimes, by the interests of big corporations...

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[Jemmons]

11. The point was not to deny any paper any legal right -

but to point out that they are in fact the stronger part in their attack on the muslim minority in Denmark.

It is well documented that right wing Denmark have been campaigning against immigrants for a number of years in a way that has been chocking to those who watched:

"»Danskernes problemer er selvskabte som følge af en diskriminerende lovgivning. Vi agter ikke at følge det danske spor i Sverige«, fastslår Sveriges justitsminister Thomas Bodström overfor det svenske nyhedsbureau TT."

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=333558

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/kultur/1441092.html

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=425390

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=347089

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=338734

http://www.modkraft.dk/magasiner.php?op=vis&artid=178&mid=2


There is - as you point out - a lot of good to be said about Denmark. And Jyllandsposten do have a legal right to print their offensive cartoons. But it is still bloody stupid and done for all the wrong reasons.

Im not angry about the pictures - they dont offend me, as im not a muslim - but i dont find that Jyllandsposten is an innocent victim in this.

I dont mention or think "neo-nazi" about any of this. I just think that there is a lot of stupidity on almost all parts in this sad story.

[esbelt]

14. yes your are right

that there has been in some years a big dialog in our political forum about "immigrants" and we have in fact been in EU, warned or claimed about that, but still
to say that this stories in JP and heavy right wing feelings in our nation is now paying back in terms of burning embassies in Syria etc. is not the same as burning cars in the streets of France. We are in-fact one of the most tolerant nations in the world, and therefore the hole story is absurd for many Danes!
my point is that, we (JP) started the debate (conflict), but it was here all the time, and the right to make "history-books" "critic-news-stories" etc. is in danger of being held as hostage to religion.

[neweurope]

4. I agree rto every word with one exception:

The "stupidity" of the Muslim response. Let's not ever call the other side "stupid". Let's accept that they are different and how they are different, that's much better for world peace :)
It was foreseeable they would react like this in any case; at a time where there is war against muslim states - and more wars in the making - it's very clear that Muslim politicians and populists would eagerly use this. One more reason those "cartoons" should have never been published.

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[esbelt]

6. the right wing

people today ensemble 30 people for a demonstration in DK against the muslims... THATS a fact.
keep that in mind and ask your friend again about what we think in DK!

[neweurope]

8. I'm not quite certain what you are trying to tell me, sorry.

I had said:
"I also know that a lot of Danes, like a lot of Germans, have problems with immigration and use immigrants for their own political means." If there was an anti-Muslim demonstration that rather illustrates my point, doesn't it?

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[esbelt]

10. no

30 people against the believe that we have here, hardly makes DK a nation with "big" problems with immigrants, does it?

[neweurope]

13. Ah, I understand now.

I don't think that Denmark as such has problems with it. I do think - and will continue to think so even after your next answer - that a lot of Danes have problems with immigration.

I'm off to feed my horses now so I won't be around, anyway :hi:


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[Jemmons]

15. Muslim immigrants compared with national cancer not a problem?

When a leading politician like Louise Frevert of Danish Folksparty compares muslim immigrants with a national cancer i do think there is a problem.

http://politik.tv2.dk/article.php/2947905.html?forside

[esbelt]

16. I still don't see

our country as you do, just now in the DK news we are faced with the fact that a "big" demonstration of 30 people from our wright-wing is faced with a pro-demonstration of 200 people from our left-wing (in which 50 was arrested for fighting the police), this is a clear message that we as a nation, not are fighting immigrants or the muslim worlds as you are saying.

[neweurope]

17. Christ. Unfortunately I don't speak Danish.

Did anything happen to that "lady" - or can anybody in Denmark say something like this unmolested?

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[esbelt]

18. When

we say free speech, we mean free speech... nobody is really listening to this mad woman.. so...

[neweurope]

19. As Jemmons pointed out she is a leading politician of

the Danish Folksparty. So don't tell me nobody listens to her. That's like saying that the people who signed PNAC are all crazy guys that nobody listens to. As had been reported in Europe. We know differently by now.

I am a firm believer in free speech. I also happen to be a firm believer in the principle that actions will bear consequences.


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[esbelt]

20. yes

but we also have had a well know-ned comedy actor /Jacob Haugaard (elected for 4 years) on his demand for "only positive wind on the streets for bicycles" he went out after next election... so they come and go in, in our system of democrisy... but the big parties is still "liberals" and "social-democrats"

[neweurope]

21. However she' s around spewing filth.

Sorry, "come and go" is no argument for me. As long as they "stay" they have an influence on a lot of dumb people. And as yet I haven't heard you denounce her.

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[esbelt]

22. You mean

denounce her .. like I don't support her ... hell no I don't support this party, but they have there rights i think.
and I don't see them responsible for the present situation, simply on the fact that we here are truly tolerant in nature
and therefore we don't want to make crises out of "paintings" we simply fail to understand the reasons of burning buildings out of
a democratic debate on free speech. its like everyone (I know) here is in chock over the reactions, not that we all are racists,, not at all!

[neweurope]

23. Maybe you should come out of your state of shock and try and

understand how other cultures work.

And please stop saying that those abominable "cartoons" were "a democratic debate on free speech". They were hate speech. Which we don't usually indulge in in Europe. They were derogatory, demeaning, disgusting.

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[Karenina]

24. When their first publication

failed to pull the pin off the grenade, they were RE-PUBLISHED.
Damn, I'm not religious AT ALL and they offended ME as I have many dear friends whose sensibilites I respect. I may not AGREE but I respect them because of my attachment to individuals I would never want to see harmed. THIS WAS PURE PROVOCATION to galvanize the "clash of civilizations" bullshit.

[neweurope]

27. I absolutely agree, Karenina.

I felt offended, also, and I also see it as planned provocation. There are people who are interested in Muslims and "Christians" warring each other. And most people fall for this crap all too willingly. Even here :cry:

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[esbelt]

30. wow

talking about "muslim-phobic" is there not something called "nazi-phobic" as-well.
just remember the full story of the pictures, we may argue about the "outlook" of the cartoons, and I think as you
that they are offending to the muslim population, but I don't see them in a big conspirator from our wright-wing (minority) to try
start a "holy-war" on muslims.

The fact is that there is still a death sentence on Salmon Rushdie and that we in Europe have problems to understand the reactions
when we make books, news-stories, comedies, movies, and all the things we are used to do in our culture, when it comes to religion Islam.

Remember the monty-Python humor, that is funny, don't you agree?, don't you fear that this kind of humor, is moving away from the fact that
in this digital-time of information, we will be attack from extremists around the world, every-time we make something like comedy based on our political present situation.
Our way of make a political point in our world, also include the culture-live as : movies, theater, books, etc.

well, I still think that you and I are not so fare from understanding than we can agree on debating still is a god and fine way to compromise.

thanks for your sencerly willingness to try to debate with me.

Aim of for know.

[Benfea]

26. The response *is* stupid.

Look, I lived in Germany, and I'm all too familiar with anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe. It's disgusting. I remember when a Turkish apartment complex was fire bombed in West Germany (yeah, I'm old), and I was shocked, but not terribly surprised. After all, I was already living with the terror campaigns they were conducting in U.S. military housing areas, which were chock-full of the families of military personnel. Although I am a leftist myself, to this day I have a deep resentment towards German leftists because of my experiences with the bombing campaigns, and I've no great love for German rightists because of their disgusting, racist, anti-immigrant sentiments.

Eh, I'm getting off topic. Anyway, I know all too well how out of hand European anti-immigrant sentiment can get.

That still doesn't justify burning down an embassy in response to a damn cartoon.

[neweurope]

28. German leftists bombed a Turkish apartment complex?

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[Benfea]

25. Thank you for shedding light on this.

While I do think the cartoons — and especially the motivation behind them — is truly despicable, I don't think anyone should suppress this sort of thing. Here in America we have the KKK and several versions of the Nazi party, and they routinely produce essays and cartoons that are every bit as offensive (perhaps even more). We don't use the government to suppress the expression of their ideas because doing so only lends credibility to them, and because doing so violates the spirit of freedom of speech.

Danes should feel ashamed that their politicians can do and say such things and be rewarded on election day for it (not that we Americans don't have our own reasons to be ashamed of our politics, as I'm sure you well know).

[fujiyama]

29. While thhe cartoons may have beeen offensive

I am morere distturbed by the reacttion of the rampaging mobs and those defending them.

If we are ready to simply censor anything because they may offend certaiin groups, then freedom of speechh has little meaning.

I know in some countries Salman Rushdie's the sataanic verses is still banned.

I may be an idealist, but even offensive ideas shouuld be allowed to be published. Some may argue that it was poor judgement to publish theem. Perhaps, but that's not critical here. What is, is the ability of thee fundamentalists to scare populations into never criticizing them...especially through art.

But I checked out FR earlier (don't know why) and I came off feeling even moree sick. The attitude there was about as bad as these mobs - kill, kill, kill! This is insanity. We may really be righgt in the middle of the clash of civilizations, and in the end we may all be loserrs, except for the fundamentalists on both sides.

We aare entering a new era where western liberal values of free speech may be in grave danger - by Christian fundies hhere in the US, and Muslim fundies in Europe and elsewhere.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. I share your feelings.

I agree that some of the cartoons were offensive, at least the ones I "got." But, like you, I am more than disturbed by the reactions here; those defending, or at 'excusing,' the resulting violence.

It was not that long ago, I had to defend a Holocaust revisionist. His arrest in Austria made me happy; I won't lie about that. But, I do not hold the Austrians to the US 'letter of the law.' That lying sack of shit has every right to spew his lies here; it is protected by the US Constitution.

You mention that Salman Rushdie's book is banned in several countries, but the "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" (a forgery) and "Mien Kampf" are not banned in this country. For the record, "Mien Kampf" is a number one seller in Turkey.

Free speech should be just that...free speech, no matter the form or how odious it may be (except calls for violence). However, it doesn't ever justify violence; despite those that think a "line has been crossed." The laws of the US do not apply to Austria, so why are some here trying to make the laws of Islam apply to Denmark?

Free speech is under assault, as you say, by the fundies in this country (the US), and elsewhere by other fundies. I find it interesting that some of the people saying these cartoons should have never been published, are the same ones that decry the "free-speech" zones set up outside of anywhere that Bush speaks.

Finally, as odious as some of the cartoons may be, why are they so egregious, but cartoons coming from Arab press, especially those that are anti-Semitic, are OK? If Jews, worldwide, started burning down embassies, people would be aghast. What about the anti-American ones published in Arab presses? Should roving bands of psychopaths be given the "green light" to destroy those nations embassies because of the crap printed in their papers?

[esbelt]

31. please dont forget

this

http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid=3527646