Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Nader Voters Were Right In 2000 And Dems (Still) Need To Face Facts

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 03:49 PM
Original message
Nader Voters Were Right In 2000 And Dems (Still) Need To Face Facts
In 2000, Ralph Nader was publicly addressing vital national and global issues, including corporate corruption, influence and control of our government and media. It was up to the Democrats and their candidate to address those vital issues-- or risk losing the voters who KNEW what was at stake and that the U.S. was heading toward inevitable disaster. For all the talk about “strategery” and ABB, in 2000 there was only one presidential candidate saying what needed to be said.

It was up to the Democrats to address those vital issues and it still is. Five years later, the far-sighted “kooky” Nader has been vindicated by the facts, historic events and criminal indictments. Even so, are Democratic leaders, legislators and potential candidates facing facts directly and communicating vital issues to the American people?

Even with the “Culture of Corruption” sound bite and the rush to wiping up the lobbyist gravy train, the symptoms -- not the causes -- are being treated with band aids. Both parties seem to be in too much of a hurry to look like they are closing lobbying loopholes, rather than correcting the real problems of corporate control of Congress, the elections, the media and the White House.

In 2006, Al Gore (former Vice-President, current Anti-Candidate and rightful winner of the 2000 election) threw down the gauntlet and Democratic leaders are carefully stepping around it.

Al Gore:

The Abramoff scandal is but the tip of a giant iceberg that threatens the integrity of the entire legislative branch of government. It is the pitiful state of our legislative branch which primarily explains the failure of our vaunted checks and balances to prevent the dangerous overreach by our Executive Branch which now threatens a radical transformation of the American system.

I call upon Democratic and Republican members of Congress today to uphold your oath of office and defend the Constitution. Stop going along to get along. Start acting like the independent and co-equal branch of government you're supposed to be.

But there is yet another Constitutional player whose pulse must be taken and whose role must be examined in order to understand the dangerous imbalance that has emerged with the efforts by the Executive Branch to dominate our constitutional system. "We The People" are -- collectively -- still the key to the survival of America's democracy. We -- as Lincoln put it, "even we here" -- must examine our own role as citizens in allowing and not preventing the shocking decay and degradation of our democracy. Thomas Jefferson said: "An informed citizenry is the only true repository of the public will."



The (2000’s not 2004’s) rightful president is crying in the wilderness and off the corporate media map; a few brave Congress members and bi-partisan witnesses are holding hearings in the Capitol basement; the President is illegally spying on Americans and says he’ll continue; the second Bush nominee for the Supreme Court has advocated an imbalance in the checks and balances for the past two decades; Iraq War troops are being threatened with losing their military death benefits if their families buy them the dragonskin armor that could save their lives; the Congress is on Christmas holiday at the end of January; and most Democrats refuse to stand up and say that the President’s actions are illegal, his war based is on lies, his nominee is unsuitable and there must be an immediate and thorough independent investigation into the actions of this administration.

Al Gore:

The revolutionary departure on which the idea of America was based was the audacious belief that people can govern themselves and responsibly exercise the ultimate authority in self-government. This insight proceeded inevitably from the bedrock principle articulated by the Enlightenment philosopher John Locke: "All just power is derived from the consent of the governed."

The intricate and carefully balanced constitutional system that is now in such danger was created with the full and widespread participation of the population as a whole. The Federalist Papers were, back in the day, widely-read newspaper essays, and they represented only one of twenty-four series of essays that crowded the vibrant marketplace of ideas in which farmers and shopkeepers recapitulated the debates that played out so fruitfully in Philadelphia.

Indeed, when the Convention had done its best, it was the people - in their various States - that refused to confirm the result until, at their insistence, the Bill of Rights was made integral to the document sent forward for ratification.

And it is "We the people" who must now find once again the ability we once had to play an integral role in saving our Constitution. And here there is cause for both concern and great hope. The age of printed pamphlets and political essays has long since been replaced by television - a distracting and absorbing medium which sees determined to entertain and sell more than it informs and educates. Lincoln's memorable call during the Civil War is applicable in a new way to our dilemma today: "We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country."

“WE MUST DISENTHRALL OURSELVES, AND THEN WE SHALL SAVE OUR COUNTRY.”



Al Gore:

Forty years have passed since the majority of Americans adopted television as their principal source of information. Its dominance has become so extensive that virtually all significant political communication now takes place within the confines of flickering 30-second television advertisements.

And the political economy supported by these short but expensive television ads is as different from the vibrant politics of America's first century as those politics were different from the feudalism which thrived on the ignorance of the masses of people in the Dark Ages.

The constricted role of ideas in the American political system today has encouraged efforts by the Executive Branch to control the flow of information as a means of controlling the outcome of important decisions that still lie in the hands of the people.

:bounce: :bounce:

This legal theory, which its proponents call the theory of the unitary executive but which is more accurately described as the unilateral executive, threatens to expand the president's powers until the contours of the constitution that the Framers actually gave us become obliterated beyond all recognition. Under this theory, the President's authority when acting as Commander-in-Chief or when making foreign policy cannot be reviewed by the judiciary or checked by Congress. President Bush has pushed the implications of this idea to its maximum by continually stressing his role as Commander-in-Chief, invoking it has frequently as he can, conflating it with his other roles, domestic and foreign. When added to the idea that we have entered a perpetual state of war, the implications of this theory stretch quite literally as far into the future as we can imagine.


:kick:



Democrats: Can we please have leaders who will say what needs to be said BEFORE it’s too late, rather than after?





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. What does Nader care? He got a nice Bush tax cut.
I'm through listening to that little turd.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Democratic leaders could raise the level of discussion "even on DU"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
94. Ralph was right-as were chomsky, moore, hightower, sarandon, robbins, ivin
and all the other great lefties who backed him - who, strangely, are celbrated here while ralph is ridiculously labeled a gop activist

if you want to blame anyone, blame clinton/gore for listening to dick morris and driving the left to vote for ralph
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
156. So did every member of Congress. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. How many Nader voters still think theres no difference between Bush & Gore
After the last 5 years we have had, probably not many.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Please read the OP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Too bad Nader took away our chance to find out for ourselves
Instead of having to wonder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Go talk to all the NON-VOTERS you know-- then come back
Hopefully you read the OP and understand the point is that Democrats needed to address those issues then and they need to face them now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Nader won't be the answer in '06 or '08, that's for darn sure.
Edited on Sat Jan-21-06 04:50 PM by Lastlaughin08

It's too bad, but a vote for a candidate that can't win is wasted if the other party gets their guy in because of it.

And we got Bush, sadly.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. I think it was the soccer moms and NASCAR dads,
and all the other registered Democrats who voted for Bush, but hey, it's easier to just blame Nader.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowdoginGA Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. exactly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. The NON-voters think "there's no dfference between __ & ___"
Anybody blaming them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. There were just as many non voters in 2004 as there were in 1972
Turnout of voting-age population

2004 Bush vs Kerry 55.3%
2000 Bush vs Gore 51.3
1996 Dole vs Clinton 49.1
1992 Bush vs Clinton 55.1
1988 Bush vs Dukakis 50.1
1984 Reagan vs Mondale 53.1
1980 Reagan vs Carter 52.6
1976 Ford vs Carter 53.6
1972 Nixon vs McGovern 55.2

And yes, I do blame non-voters. Do you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalmike27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #42
106. Well
I blame the politicians that don't give non-voters anything to vote for. I guarantee you, a lot of these voters don't vote because they don't see a big difference between the parties. They are the poorest, the least educated, and the worst off. Yes, they should be voting more than anyone, but no they don't see much difference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #106
139. Do you know any of those people or talk to them?
"They are the poorest, the least educated, and the worst off. "

There are a LOT of young, affluent, educated people who are SO jaded about the fact that corporations run everything and both parties serve them that they don't vote AT ALL.. THOSE are the people that I hear say "there's no difference between the Dems and Republicans."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #106
141. I live in an affluent county and even here voting seldom exceeds 55%
Apathy is the name of the game sigh!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
183. Ummm...one word .....Lieberman
that was a signal to the "right" that Gore was on board. He may "sound" great and make every expected progressive statement now....but then I found it quite telling that he chose Lieberman.

You are also forgetting that Nader created new voters for 2004...and it still wasn't enough to battle Bush effectively. I live in a dem safe state, so I don't look at my vote for Nader as bold or brave. Gore swept regardless.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Right maybe but also weak
Alot of people may be right but it doesn't do much good politically unless they are also capable of political leadership and winning elections. Sorry DU, many of you may have ideas I agree with but I am not going to use my vote to vote for you as a write in candidate. Since I have seen how fast Bush Co destroyed things I want my vote to count as something more than a protest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Maybe "Had A Right" would have worked better to say that
Nader voters had a right to vote for a candidate saying what needed to said FOR ONCE and the Democrats need that sort of leadership now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NoFederales Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Indeed, is the Opposition Party's message about democratic principles
or about Brand Name Party Loyalism--keeping in mind that Brand Name Partyism may have little or nothing to do with Opposition, and/or democratic principles. The Candidate that speaks with Truth with adherence to democratic principles is The Candidate to support with Loyalty and other assistance. This is my bias with Politics; it is also why I feel so betrayed these past decades. I used to wonder if it would ever get better, now I just hope that it will not get worse and worse. Where are we going? How much can a Citizen take?

NoFederales

PS: That artwork of "One Nation under Surveillance is outstanding. Can it be obtained as a tee-shirt?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thank you for reminding me to credit Swamp Rat
for the brilliant image. The Swamp Rat name is not as easy to see in this one. You can PM SR at DU.

And if you see any signs of an Opposition Party, please let us know.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NoFederales Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. As a Disaffected Former Republican, I surely am twisting in the political
gusts, searching, searching.........

NoFederales
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
163. I love that photo of Bush, no Bozo the Clown, no...wait...I'm confused.
All he's missing is the red nose. Let's give him one more drink - then I'm sure it will be there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #163
173. Drink? I thought it was a Psychedelic Lemur
:spray:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. But what did their little stand against Gore get us and them?
8 years of destruction!
Will the Constitution survive?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Democrats need to face those issues-- then and now
and quit pretending Nader is to blame for Bush.

A weak Democratic campaign that didn't face the real issues and the Supreme Court are responsible for Bush II.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
77. Plus Nader.
Quit pretending Nader didn't have anything to do with the stolen election 2000.

Remember that Nader accepted money from Repukes - why do you think that is??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #77
91. Why are the Nader Haters so bent on missing the point of the OP?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #91
107. Most of us agree with Ralph Nader's principles....
That's NOT the point. The point is, Nader is responsible for George Bush being in the White House. If he hadn't run, (and he WAS urged to pull out of the race), we wouldn't be faced with the disasters that have befallen this country since 2000. If his ego hadn't gotten in the way, it would have been President Gore. Are YOU bent on missing the point?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yeah, well, but for Nader's ego, none of this would be happening now
because Gore would have carried several states that went to Bush because of the Nader vote.

Make no mistake. What is happening now is 100% because of Nader and those that voted for him instead of Gore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Well, that makes two of us that agree, anyway.
Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Bullshit. Gore Coulda/Shoulda/Woulda carried those states on his own
with a wider margin resulting from a stronger campaign. I am suggesting that the issues that drew Nader voters away from the Democrats were valid and timely and NOW they are VITAL AND URGENT!!!!!!!!!!!11

Make no mistake-- blaming Nader voters and ignoring the need for Democrats to address those "Nader" issues NOW is a prescription for further disaster.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
136. You are correct, Gore should've won those states on his own
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 06:38 PM by Hippo_Tron
That doesn't take away the fact that he would be president if Nader had not run.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #136
138. only if you assume that Nader voters would have voted for Gore
Hypothetical and not "fact" at all

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. According to polling they would have
No it's not fact, but polling is a fairly good science.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #140
142. I don't buy the retroactive soothsaying this ugly argument is based on
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #142
166. Look, people were polled and asked "who would you have voted for"
If Nader were not running. The number of people that answered Gore is high enough that it is fairly certain that had Nader not run, Gore would have won Florida (well, he would've been declared the winner in Florida).

Now, here is a flaw in this theory that I would accept. Perhaps if Nader had not run and Gore's margin had been larger because of it, Katherine Harris would have pulled a few more dirty tricks to rig the vote even more. It's hard to say what would have happened at this point.

What I was trying to do was explain why people believe that Nader cost Gore the election. If you want a psychological perspective, I think that the reason that democrats often criticize Nader voters differently than Bush voters and non voters is that they feel that Nader voters are enlightened like they are and believe in many of the same things that they do, whereas the other two groups are not enlightened in the same way and are much more difficult to reach out to.

Personally I think that it is pointless to bring up this old debate anyway. Telling Nader voters that they were wrong in 2000 isn't going to help us now and telling Gore voters that they were wrong in 2000 isn't going to help us now. If anything it is only going to serve to further divide us, which is exactly what the Republicans want.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. Know anyone who's ever been polled?
Not to split hairs, honest, but nobody asked me, or anyone I know, nor have I ever seen polling at any place I've ever voted............

So making retroactive arguments on that is iffy (esp. if they are rabid like in this thread) I wonder what other voters Nader drew. And how Dems could attract them.

And I appreciate you and others taking the time to discuss this a bit more in depth.

"Now, here is a flaw in this theory that I would accept. Perhaps if Nader had not run and Gore's margin had been larger because of it, Katherine Harris would have pulled a few more dirty tricks to rig the vote even more. It's hard to say what would have happened at this point."

Yeah, was gonna say, given all the efforts they went to in Florida, you think Nader did it? Blaming Nader may be a distraction, a "spoiler" from really examining and educating people about what THEY did in Selection 2000.

"If you want a psychological perspective, I think that the reason that democrats often criticize Nader voters differently than Bush voters and non voters is that they feel that Nader voters are enlightened like they are and believe in many of the same things that they do, whereas the other two groups are not enlightened in the same way and are much more difficult to reach out to."

Thank you for that. Interesting. "Nader voters are enlightened like they are and believe in many of the same things that they do." So maybe we should be gettin to the "reachin out" part.

"Telling Nader voters that they were wrong in 2000 isn't going to help us now and telling Gore voters that they were wrong in 2000 isn't going to help us now. If anything it is only going to serve to further divide us, which is exactly what the Republicans want."

And that's not what the OP was about. After all this, seems to me that "exactly what the Republicans want" is for the issues that Nader raised --issues I propose the Dems need to address, and fast -- are demonized along with Nader himself, so that those issues remain fringe and ignored, while the party keeps listing to the Right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
158. You're both wrong...
if Nader hadn't run, diebold would have manufactured more * votes. IMO, election fraud must be addressed before any policy or position questions.

Bill
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. Agreed. Who is addressing election fraud?
"IMO, election fraud must be addressed before any policy or position questions."

It was supposed to be addressed after 2000-- and wasn't. Folks still assume that it is........somehow........by someone. Even the Congress members who talk about seem to think someone ELSE is doing something.........somewhere...........

:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NoFederales Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Defining a Political Self
If a person believed strongly enough in the idealism of democratic principles, where would that place him? As a lefty liberal?

I'm not attempting to be facetious because I do not consider myself very "liberal" except in the sense of believing in the ideals of democratic principles. I voted for Gore, not Nader, but not because my conscious desires where fulfilled with Gore's campaign. I was playing politics, particularly so when stories started floating around about Republicans supporting Nader with campaign money in order to damage Democratic chances.

I believe many people who reflect on their choices are torn as I was. I will not lie and claim that "No way, 100% dem principles or I find the Ideal candidate" is a path I would follow for the future--but I would like to think I could.

Truthfully, I think my desires will never be met since I expect Citizen responsibility and participation as well as elected representatives who serve and protect the democratic ideals of our Constitution.

So what kind of political being am I describing? And how does this person fit into contemporary politics?

NoFederales
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Join all who care RE: corporate corruption, election fraud, abuse of power
and the Constitution.

Where are the patriotic Republicans?

Check out bipartisan testimony at both Conyers basement hearings (Downing Street Minutes and White House illegally-ordered spying on Americans)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. Blah Blah Fuckin Blah ....
What a bunch of self serving pap ....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. good example of why they misunderestimate the audience
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
55. Bush was "mis-underestimated" and GORE voters told you so.
eom.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. My anxiety would be assuaged if AL GORE runs in 2008
and Ralph Nader supports him. They are communing to some extent now.

I think it's a good idea to look FORWARD and quit beating a dead horse. This is all really a moot issue and pales in comparison to the horrendous circumstances we face now. Blaming wastes energy.

I think Al Gore has evolved into a force to be reckoned with (FTR, Gore was much more outspoken than Kerry was; don't confuse the candidates). There is a huge void in the Democratic leadership and I sincerely hope he does his duty as a citizen and steps into it.

GORE/OBAMA 2008.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Yes a progressive/Democratic coalition is important
"I think it's a good idea to look FORWARD and quit beating a dead horse. This is all really a moot issue and pales in comparison to the horrendous circumstances we face now. Blaming wastes energy."

Please AK don't misinterpret the OP. The point is that the issues that Nader raised and Democrats didn't raise then-- and still are mostly afraid to raise now-- are VITAL and not moot or "blaming" at all. The "horrendous circumstances" are all tied together to similar causes............. Gore's speech connected quite a few of the dots. We need Democratic leaders and reps willing to speak up. NOW.

"(FTR, Gore was much more outspoken than Kerry was; don't confuse the candidates)."

Gore was outspoken but he let the handlers tie his feet together and both Gore and Kerry suffered being hobbled by the MBAs and poly-sci types who want them to continually misunderestimate the audience.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. oh, I agree the issues Nader raised are important;
it is the issue of blaming that is moot IMO. It is just so water under the bridge at this point. We have much bigger fish to fry than that sort of wasted energy.

I hope you can see something that is glaringly apparent to me and that is Gore could unite the division between the progressive/liberal base. He doesn't have the stink of the Iraq Resolution vote on him. Contemplating the parameters of his possible candidacy is really fascinating. His politics have evolved and so have mine. I used to be much more moderate. I hope people can embrace the sincerity of Gore's blossoming populist ideology.

I get the feeling that if the Dems in Congress don't step up, and quite frankly I have little hope that they will, Gore will continue to step up with strongly-worded, provocative speeches, continuing to press for a special prosecutor in the NSA wiretapping outrage. And if no viable candidate emerges in 2006, I believe Gore will have a clear shot at stepping into the Dem leadership niche he is carving out now.

I sure as hell hope so. We must have a candidate with balls this time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. You can help.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. Nice long post with some good points, however
if anyone needs to face facts it is the delusional Liberals who still believe they were right to vote for Nader in 2000.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Nader voters were RIGHT ABOUT THE ISSUES & smug Mon. Morning Quarterbacks
Edited on Sat Jan-21-06 05:54 PM by omega minimo
are oblivious. They are keeping the Democrats stuck in the past while the nation is being bulldozed over them. That's totally delusional and successfully serving the Republicons.

:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. It's hard to decide whether Nader apologists are more smug
or more delusional at this juncture. You are correct of course that the nation is being bulldozed even as you and I argue. You will never convince me that the same atrocities would be occurring under Gore or Kerry.
There were many issues that I agree with Nader on. I did not and do not buy into the lunacy that there was no difference between Gore and Bush. I also knew that Nader had no chance to win.This was mostly attributable to the fact that this country is much more conservative that any of us here would like it to be. And somewhat attributable to the undeniable fact that as a candidate for President, Nader was a petulant scold with little personal appeal.
So what is a Liberal to do when confronted with a choice between a man who comes closest to espousing the things I believe in but has no chance of winning. Or to vote for a decent man with whom I mostly agreed, who won the popular vote and who would have kept the country moving toward becoming a more decent society.
I am proud of my vote for Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2006. I am much more liberal than either, but I recognize that the United States has a basically moderate outlook on politics and ,absent a crisis, is more comfortable in the middle of the road.
2006 and 2008 may well be the most important elections the nation has faced since 1860. If the Republicans are able to hold on to power much longer we will become a fascist state. If it takes supporting a moderate Democrat to stop this slide to neandrethalism, I am happy to vote for a moderate. In the lead up to the nomination I will support only anti war candidates who vow to bust up the media conglomerates who have enabled this outrage of a presidency. I would hope that former Nader voters would follow similar paths. As a matter of fact many that I know abandoned Nader in '04 as they saw the havoc being visited upon the nation partially due to their vote in 2000.
As for the delusional ideologues who would rather luxuriate in their doctrinal purity than have a positive effect upon the course of history, my only hope is that you come to your senses and effectively resist the destruction of our democratic ideals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. Who's apologizing?
:evilgrin:

(listening to Thistle and Shamrock as I write this :hi: )

"As for the delusional ideologues who would rather luxuriate in their doctrinal purity than have a positive effect upon the course of history, my only hope is that you come to your senses and effectively resist the destruction of our democratic ideals."

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is a general "you" and not directed at me (in which case I wouldn't bother answering someone who thinks I am their cardboard cutout cliche instead of reading what I wrote).

Anyway, sorry, friend, it's the middle of the road folks that have not effectively resisted "the destruction of our democratic ideals."

The OP was an invitation to a discussion on the issues that were vital and compelling to Nader voters in 2000 and which are imperative now.

"I am much more liberal than either, but I recognize that the United States has a basically moderate outlook on politics and ,absent a crisis, is more comfortable in the middle of the road. 2006 and 2008 may well be the most important elections the nation has faced since 1860. If the Republicans are able to hold on to power much longer we will become a fascist state. If it takes supporting a moderate Democrat to stop this slide to neandrethalism, I am happy to vote for a moderate."

The reason I brought this up is that the "moderate" "middle of the road" approach may still be favored, but to suggest that it isn't entirely successful for Democrats, especially now that too many things have gone too far to be ignored. The issues that you and I may agree on that were part of the Nader platform need to raised with the Democrats. The Democrats in Congress have got to rise to Gore's challenge to act as the independent branch of the government that they were intended. THAT means taking the current scandals, indictments, investigations, hearings, lobbying reform, campaign reform, election reform-- ALL of it-- and start standing up strong RIGHT NOW.

"In the lead up to the nomination I will support only anti war candidates who vow to bust up the media conglomerates who have enabled this outrage of a presidency."

Um yeah, the media conglomerates who profit from the military/industrial complex (did Eisenhower really throw "Congressional" in there?)



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Well, I was pretty sure that the references to smug and oblivious
in your response were not generalized comments but directed right at the sentiments I had expressed. Had I known that you were listening to Thistle and Shamrock, I would have understood that there is more that unites than divides us. So let me ratchet down the invective a bit by reiterating what I said at first. Your initial post contained many valid insights with which I agree.
I truly believe that this next cycle of elections will define the United States for the foreseeable future. The militarism, secrecy, contempt for civil rights, disregard for common decency that mark Bush and the Republican Party have to be stopped at the polls. To not wrest power from these people is almost to terrible to contemplate. So my plea to anyone thinking of voting for any third party candidate would be please consider the consequences of such an act. And sorry if this offends you, please don't make the mistake people made in 2000.
Slainte to you. Enjoy the music. Peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
185. Not a delusional liberal...but a conservative Democrat
who voted for Nader...why??? because Gore did NOT show/convince me, that he wanted to be President enough to deserve my vote..all I remembered seeing was a blah hunk of man...talking like he had mush in his mouth...saying nothing that got my attention and held it...This was back when I believed I still had the right to vote for the man I deemed my own personal "best man for the job", the candidate who was talking to ME, about things that mattered to ME...instead of I had to vote for whomever THE PARTY nominated, because I had NO OTHER CHOICE...I was a Democrat, after all...so what's that we say about freedom to choose again?? I also was still naive enough to believe that it was still about "the man" instead of who had more money...that I neglected to see our WH was now on the auction block and for sale to the highest bidder, is my fault...

Something people need to understand is that Nader voters did NOT lose the election for Gore...Gore lost the election for Gore...Non Voters and Bush voters helped...but what really cinched it...was the SCOTUS....THEY....CHOSE...THE...WINNER....and had that court NOT been stacked for exactly that reason...perhaps Gore would have won....When, in history, had the election EVER come down to the state of Florida, before(you ones who blame Nader voters, think that was an accident???)...when had it EVER gone to the SC to decide, BEFORE?? How many times have our elections been tampered with previous to this....that we DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT???? Had we really faced the fact that it COULD HAPPEN??? I know I never even considered these circumstances a possibility...I may have voted differently if I had...but I was still idealistic, after all...this was my country and things like this, just didn't happen here...or did they??

The real point is...this discussion is redundant....it's over, it's in the past...and it cannot be changed....the only thing that can be changed is the future...and yes, I voted for Kerry in 2004...although he was NOT my choice...did it help??? not just no, but HELL NO!!
cause you know what...the last time I checked...* was still president, so who's fault is that? the Nader voters from 2000???....and at that point, I have to say if anyone believes that to be true....I find THAT unbelievable...
windbreeze
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. Nader Voters Were WRONG In 2000 And his supporters Need To Face Facts
Edited on Sat Jan-21-06 06:17 PM by wyldwolf
They handed Bush to the world.


* The Voter News Service, which interviewed 13,000 voters, estimated that Nader supporters would have chosen Gore over Bush by 47 percent to 21 percent, with the rest abstaining.

* A CNN study of Florida -- where Bush beat Gore by 537 votes and the Green Party candidate received more than 90,000 -- put the Gore preference at a whopping 60 percent.

* Before the first preliminary exit poll data crossed the wires, young staffers, on the orders of Nader campaign headquarters, were frantically devising multiple formulas to "prove" that Nader didn’t cost Gore the election, no matter what the results might say later.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Please read the OP and thread-- don't just get yer buttons pushed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I did.
Anyone who defends Union busting/Republican donation accepting/lying through his teeth Nader as being "right" can't see the forest for the trees.

No matter how "right" YOU think he was on any issues, he GAVE US BUSH.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. if so, you didn't understand
No he didn't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
117. Boil it down for those of us who "don't understand." I don't generally
have a comprehension problem - and neither do many of the respondents here. What hidden message were you trying to communicate - exactly?




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. bullcrap
this country wouldn't have its current problems if Nader didn't throw the election to Shrub. Its time the Naderites admitted this fact.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Nader is not the reason the Democrats didn't have a wider margin
Claiming it's Nader's fault is stupid.

THE SUPREME COURT APPOINTED BUSH FOR GAWD'S SAKE

The OP is about the issues that need to come up front for Democrats.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. that's a copout
it wouldn't have gone to the Supreme Court without Nader. Gore would have won Florida by 3-5 percentage points without Nader in the race. Come to grips with the fact that the current situation is largely the fault of Nader voters who claimed there was no difference between Gore and Bush. That was 100 percent wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Shoulda Coulda Woulda Why don't you blame non-voters?
The after-the-fact slicing and dicing of the numbers seems stupid to me, sorry.

You could just as well argue "if that huge block of 20/30-somethings who are so jaded they don't bother voting had voted, Gore would have won with a huge margin." The non-voters I talk to are the ones who say there was no difference between Gore and Bush or Bush and Kerry. Nader voters were voting FOR something.

Why are people who vote expected to do what you think they should, instead of people who don't even vote at all?

Maybe cuz they're harder to count?


"Come to grips with the fact that the current situation is largely the fault of Nader voters who claimed there was no difference between Gore and Bush."

THAT is a "bullcrap" "copout"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. You can rationalize anyway you want
but your vote for Nader put the current President in the White House and led directly to the war in Iraq, huge tax cuts for the Rich and the rightward tilt of the Supreme Court. You need to come to grips with your actions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. The Nader Voter Bashers are doing the rationalizing
You "need to come to grips" with the fact that the Supreme Court "put the current President in the White House"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. your ideological purity test put Bush in there
If you folks voted for Gore, he'd be President. But you didn't because you claimed there was no difference between Bush and Gore and that always was complete hogwash.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. That's not me-- you must be thinking of someone else
I'm thinkin you didn't read the OP either! :kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. here's my ideological purity test. are you sitting down?
1. Don't fuck the poor, school kids, or any other vulnerable group in our society for political gain.

2. See number 1.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. and Gore did this how?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. he didn't. the irony is
that I'd have voted for the Gore we've seen since 2003 over Nader without question. As it was in 2000, though, I heard nothing regarding Clinton's welfare "reform" act - which precipitated my first vote for Nader in 1996 - and a fair amount about how he wanted to give the Pentagon even more money than Bush did.

Would that Gore had been able to break out of the Clinton triangulation mold in 2000.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #76
84. Gore's campaign theme
was the people versus the powerful. It was quite a progressive, populist campaign. Hardly triangulation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
85. NYT Published Article that Gore Won the 2000 Elections.
But not until December of 2001, post 9/11 and while bombing the crap out of Afghanistan.

If current predictions bear out, and the Dems allow Alito's confirmation next week without a knock-down, drag-out fight (including acts of civil disobedience if necessary) a significant number of progressives (those who have stayed with the party up until to this point) will likely be leaving it, as current commentary in the print media and blogosphere indicates. Allowing Alito's confirmation is the proverbial line in the sand, as it is considered as much of a "turning point" as the Social Security issue was/is, and other basic core issues are. The Dems did manage to stave off and win that fight last year, in so far as dubya's privatization plans were concerned. (this president's ability to bankrupt Social Security treasury is yet to be exposed, and the Dems will have to fight another day on that battle ground)

Those Progressives will choose to leave the party and make other choices, like staying home or trying to create another third party or pursue some other strategy. Others will abandon the fraudulent "Election Process" altogether and work to create a different paradigm for change, like the Zapatista movement as an example.

The peeling off of the progressive base will likely be greeted as "good news" to some, especially the DLC faction of the party. DLC loyalists will applaud with glee and yell out "don't let the door hit you on the backside". That will of course free them up to move the party even further to the right than they already are, without the contentious push back from progressives, and the FCMSM will call this new position as the "center", which will likely sweep up more "moderate" Republicans who are disaffected from their own party, as is the goal.

It does appear that the 2008 nominee will be HRC or someone like her and that will please some, while others will sooner or later, eventually become disillusioned, as new revelations that the party is owned by the same neo fascists ruling class as the other party, only with a more likable quarterback and a different string of players.

On the other hand, if the Dems pull a rabbit out of their hat next week and show the people a few things that are no longer expected at this juncture, it will be an interesting and possibly inspiring "new day" for the rank and file.

Then, all bets are off, until the next critical turning point, when once again it will be up to the masses to succeed in applying enough pressure to make them do the right thing.

But I'm no longer holding my breath on this one. This week's actions have reminded me of a question all of us should have been asking ourselves. Why has the burden and responsibility to keep Alito out of the Supreme court been dumped on our shoulders?

Why is something like the nomination of Alito, someone so obviously wrong for our country (for thirty years to come) why is the responsibility to block his nomination our cross to bear? Surely, the DP are equipped with a lot more in their arsenal to deal with this than we are? Even if they are in the "minority" , they have options available to them which we don't.

At this point of my writing, all remains to be seen in which way the winds of change will blow.

If the current predictions do pan out, and progressives look to a third party or leadership who is viewed as a progressive representative, it will be interesting to witness the next blame game by the DLC defenders if the voter turnout is low, or they lose elections once again.

There is a more productive strategy DLC loyalists might consider, and that is to work right now to push hard for the Abolishment of the Electoral College, implement Proportional Representation (thereby completely eliminating the "Spoiler Vote" problem forever), abolish Electronic Voting machines, and push for Clean Campaign finance reform by implementing public campaign finance method.

Instead of attacking those of us who find the right wing faction who are anathema to the core principles of the DP, consider the fact that everyone seeks and deserves to be fairly represented, and the closest way to accomplish this is by abolishing the Electoral College once and for all and implementing Proportional Representation.

Perhaps putting energy into that effort, instead of impeding progress by engaging in the blame game after every election loss because of third parties, will benefit us all in the long run.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. Excellent Post! Thanks for Including Excerpts of Gore's speach
Your opening salvo very elequently stated, nice work.

Gore knocked my socks off the other night, his thinking has really transcended as a private citizen and a passionate populist!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Let's hope his speech helps other find their footing to start standing up
and speaking out :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
87. Hear! Hear!
:hi: :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
47. you do realize
that all you've done is given the usual suspects reason again to scream "LALALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! NADER'S FAULT! (rrrrt) NADER'S FAULT! (rrrrt) KOOKY LEFTISTS! (bzzzt) KOOKY LEFTISTS!", right? :D I'm just saying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. Tsschaa, you know wut?
:evilgrin: guess it's easier than thinkin bout ISSEYEWS an stuff. BULLCRAP, I say! It's all Ross Perot's fault!!!!!!!!!!111


So now if one brings up the issues that need to be addressed it's called an "Ideological Purity Test"? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. I got yer ideological purity test
RIGHT HERE! :evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #47
109. It seems that their arguments fly in the face....
of their "big tent" argument. After all, is the left-wing of the "big tent" closed? Do we only open the right side of the tent for newcomers?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
48. Nader voters: this post will be a tough ride for you
But your typical Nader voter is a pampered, privilegd, bohemian limousine liberal who is largely immune from the consequences of the Bush presidency. People like Barbara Ehrenreich, Michael Moore and James Cromwell. Indeed, the former two have arguably profitted from the Bush presidency by selling more books and movies as a result. Their support for Kerry in 2004, was a day late and a dollar short.

Oh, and by the way, Nader's book about the Corvair is a crock of shit. My Dad had one of those things for years, and never had a problem with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. not really.
It might be a "hard ride" were it true, instead of one of the several dozen talking points that followed the 2000 election.

Thanks for the scary tough talk, though. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. Here here!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. You can't be serious
but if you are, from your perspective, what do Democrats need to do to win next time....?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
50. You've convinced me! I'm voting for FDR in 2008.
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
51. Everyone has a right to their opinion express it often while you can.
We did not know in 2000 that a vote for Ralph Nader would empower a murderer. Today we know that a murdering wolf is in our midst. (my opinion) Unless the Democrats completely fold, they are the only opposition party and their days are numbered. The Republican party is out to eliminate any opposition and establish a dictatorship. When the Democrats are gone there will not be an opposition party. Nader's' ideological purity will only hasten that dictatorship. Whether conscious or not Ralph Nader is a Republican tool.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
53. Al Gore was the first to talk of public financing of campaigns...
Edited on Sat Jan-21-06 10:06 PM by ms liberty
that I can remember. I'm pretty sure it was the '88 primaries, when he ran, it was when he first started being known on a national level. He said the money would take over. As usual, when he said it he was ridiculed and criticized; I remember that, too, because I thought it was pretty brave to come out and say it, I also thought it sounded like the best solution. Again, he turned out to have been incredibly prescient. I like a man who can look ahead.


We need Al Gore in 2008.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
54. GORE voters were right in 2000!
Edited on Sat Jan-21-06 10:18 PM by mzmolly
It was up to Democrats to do, X Y Z?

Sorry, it was up to HUMAN BEINGS to care about one another, the rest of this BS is a just that - BS.

Sure, Nader says a "few" poignant things, but the majority of what he says is hogwash - and anyone looking at the record (especially now) should be aware of that.

Further you must be joking with this sh*t.

Nader has been vindicated by the facts, historic events and criminal indictments. Even so, are Democratic leaders, legislators and potential candidates facing facts directly and communicating vital issues to the American people?

Nader, vindicated? :rofl: Would you like to visit some of the things Nader said in 2000? Nader said that Gore and Bush would be essentially the same on foreign policy/the environment and that he'd rather see a Bush Presidency than a Gore one, that he felt Democrats should lose more elections and learn a "lesson" (at the expense of human beings.) He said that Roe V wade would never be overturned and that Democrats and Republicans would appoint the same type of judges. My rear!

Anyone who comes here (pretending) that Ralf Nader is not a lying egomaniac who talks out is ass is going to have evidence to the contrary presented.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
73. Quite viciously, too
"...a lying egomaniac who talks out is ass is going to have evidence to the contrary presented."


mzmolly (1000+ posts) Sat Jan-21-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
55. Bush was "mis-underestimated" and GORE voters told you so.

So maybe the NaderHaters should blame THE FUCKING BUSH VOTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That election should never have been close at all. There are a lot more factors to this than Ralph Nader.


You didn't read the OP either

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. I read the OP, as much as I could stomach.
Edited on Sat Jan-21-06 11:27 PM by mzmolly
You lost me with the "Nader = vindicated" part.

Also, maybe the NaderLovers should post on a Naderlove discussion board!?

Nader is a lying political opponent of Democrats, as is George Bush - and including a few of Gore's recent words does not negate the fact that Nader is, was, and always will be full of shit. And Gore is, was, and always will be a patriot who has served his country well.

Further, being Gore was the only selfless, intelligent, compassionate patriot with a chance in hell to beat Bush - he should have had the support of "progressives" in 2000 - or at the very least the remorse/regret of those who voted for Mr. Nader given what we know today! Instead we get a thread about how Nader voters were right? Spare me the gall!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. I have read this again to be sure I wasn't missing something, and I'm not.
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 12:00 AM by mzmolly
The implication is - 1. Nader was right and 2. Gore has changed. Neither is correct. Nader is wrong and far from vindicated. He has, in fact been marginalized to the point of being completely useless. The only reason the media gives the wind bag air time is because he hurts Democrats. Nader is a tool. Over 200 people ran for President in 2004 - 3 got media, Bush, Kerry and ... Mr. Nader.

I enjoy much of what you have to say, but I find this OP to be incorrect in every fashion. Gore has been speaking about these issues for a very long time. Nader mischaracterized Gore's positions in 2000 - and some people believed him.

Now, unless you can point me to the part of your point that indicates "Nader and his supporters were DEAD wrong in 2000" you and I are not in agreement - and I refuse to pretend that Nader held some enlightened position, that I as a Gore supporter was not aware of, as it's poppycock!

Boiling it down to the nitty gritty: Many people have died that would not have - were Gore in office instead of Bush. How any Nader supporter can DARE come here and pontificate about how "right" he is/was is beyond me.

Gore would have been a fantastic President, it's a shame we may never get to experience his leadership.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #88
93. You misunderstand & and are arguing with someone else, not me
Not at all what "the implication is."

:thumbsdown:

Homey don't play dat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #93
112. That's a cop out "homey."
:nopity:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
160. There was a perfect storm of events to keep 2000 a close race.
The Lewinsky scandal and impeachment of Clinton hurt Al in the moderate to conservative states, there is no way to deny this. The public to some degree had tired of scandal after the 8 year witch hunt against Clinton.

The corpwhorate owned MSM had been waging a two year war against Al Gore because he empowered you and me when he became the progress ive's progressive and championed the internet. No other individual in history has empowered so many people at once. This had the effect of taking some of their corporate owned power and giving it to the people, something I would have thought Nader appreciated. The corporations making a living brainwashing the American People did not appreciate this.

They also knew the American People were yearning for some honest leadership, you know integrity and honor and such. The corpwhorate owned MSM made this the primary issue of the 2000 race, I believe if competence had been the deciding issue, Al would have won in a most dominant way. They had already labeled Al Gore as a serial exaggerator at best and liar at worst because he dared to take credit for his achievements. Nader simply enabled the corpwhorate owned MSM to brainwash the American People in to believing there was no difference between Al Gore and Bush. To me Nader sold out his beliefs with this falsehood.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #160
164. "when in the course of human events"
Reality is not black and white until AFTER the fact. You point out some of the other factors occurring at that time.

We may agree that MSM "brainwashing" was a problem then and a problem now. The next Dem candidates must refuse to be hobbled by the handlers the way Gore and Kerry were.

IMHO B-)



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
56. Bush Voters Were Right In 2000 And Dems (Still) Need To Face Facts.
Just wondering why the F anyone thinks I come here to read Nader or Bush rah-rah threads?

Nader lied - people DIED.

How's that? :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
61. What exactly does Nader do between election cycles?
The only time he pops up is just in time to jump into the presidential race. Why couldn't he run for a lesser office and work from within? Does he think he's only fit for the top job?

I did vote for him once - but after 2000 I will never vote for him again. Bush is in because the LW vote was siphoned off, plain and simple.

As much as there are some good third party people out there, I will go for the candidate that can actually WIN an election in '06, or especially in '08.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. I've heard he eats babies.
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. I've heard he doesn't care much what happens to them.
Same thing I guess ? ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. allow me to refer you
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Well that leaves Nader out of the picture.
Edited on Sat Jan-21-06 10:40 PM by mzmolly
Don't fuck the poor, school kids, or any other vulnerable group in our society for political gain.

The "political gain" thing only counts if you can actually win, right? Cause Ralf sure F-d over alot of poor, school kids and vulnerable people with his "Democrats have to lose more elections" philosophy.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. another reference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. Hmmm, here's a reference or two for you:








http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

Nader is no better and no different than Jerry Falwell or Ralph Reed -- nimble but unelected politicians who've made successful careers as self-appointed moralists.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. nader caused 9/11?
At least that's original. :rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Nader publicly supported George Bush who uhm - "caused" 911.
I don't find that humorous, personally.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. nader causes acne, too.
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I guess if you count scars from shrapnel he does?
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. He's well into his 70's, single and enjoys being a spoiler.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Indeed, he has said he enjoys stirring things up.
Guess the last laugh is on humanity ey?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Sometimes it doesn't matter, but it certainly did in '00.
And American has paid a hefty price for his fantasies.

I wonder if he could win any election at any level..........never mind the top level.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. He waits for the benefit of hindsite so he can "critique" Democrats
on their lack of perfection.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #61
95. bullshit-he's around. the media just won't cover him...or any progressive
you know that

when was the last time you saw jim hightower or molly ivins on tv for that matter?-but they're still here
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
121. Does any one actually believe that Nader is going to run again?
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 01:55 PM by radio4progressives
I could be wrong, i am certainly no insider, but I would be really surprised to see Nader make another attempt for the Presidential bid again. (I know of no progressive who got behind Nader in the last election, and I know of no progressive who will be looking to support his candidacy in the future)

I do expect more third party candidates as there's about a dozen (roughly) "third" parties out there that have appeared in every election since at least the late seventies if not before.

And given what appears to be a set in stone, DLC candidate like HRC or someone even further to the right of her (Warner) - that progressives will be supporting a "third" party candidate or not vote at all in the 2008 elections. It might again be the Green Party putting forth a "Progressive" or it may be a populist progressive running as an "Independent", which would appeal to progressive democrats who feel that the party has abandoned them.

I think all the "Nader Haters/bashers" might want to start thinking how you can help eliminate the "spoiler vote" for the next election, by demanding the abolition of the Electoral College system which exacerbates the problem of the "Spoiler Vote", and think about acting soon, because there will always be more third party presidential candidates from now until decades to come, unless the Democratic Party suddenly found jesus and returned to it's base, which does not appear likely anytime in the near future.

And one thing is certain, progressives are no longer supporting a system that is not seen as representing progressive principles and values. It's as plain and simple as that.


So how about it, eh? Abolish the Electoral College System, and implement Proportional Representation along with IRV , thereby forever eliminating the problem of the "Spoiler" vote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #121
130. I think Nader should work on the IRV issue as he is the one who
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 04:28 PM by mzmolly
claims to care about it. Democrats have enough issues to worry about right now, and frankly IRV is not at the top of MY personal list. IRV would only assist in election theft until Diebold is not an issue. Democrats have to make sure votes are accurately counted before all else, and they are working on THAT today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
guidod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
89. Who ever wants to vote for Nader
go ahead and do it , but get out of the way because the rest of the progressives want to move on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
90. Nader went GREEN in 2000....
....SHOW ME WHERE THAT CAMPAIGN HELPED THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS AT ALL!!

You can't? THEN YOU'VE F**KED YOURSELF!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
92. If your point is that unless Democrats speak out strongly and forcefully
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 12:44 AM by Douglas Carpenter
on the core issues ordinary Americans care about we will keep on just barely losing, I guess I have to agree


a super-majority of Americans are liberal in all but name
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051107/alterman
Public opinion polls show that the majority of Americans embrace liberal rather than conservative positions...
http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2002-04-16-liberal.shtml
The vast majority of Americans are looking for more social support, not less...
http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/7/borosage-r.html

http://people.umass.edu/mmorgan/commstudy.html

one more poll:

http://www.democracycorps.com/reports/analyses/Democracy_Corps_May_2005_Graphs.pdf


http://www.bernie.org/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
96. He lost the election for Dems in 2000. Then he did it again. He was
personally insulted that Clinton didn't deal with him when in office.

Nader needs to stop making things worse and start backing up the only people who can stop neocons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. Nader isn't really the concern at issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
98. Not this shit again!
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 02:33 AM by fujiyama
Really, I'm sick of this.

We're over five years thrhough with thhis miserable administration. And you're defending some egomaniac thaht basically went around lying to people about there not being differences between the parties?

Look, Nader voters had a righht to vote for whomever they damn well pleased. But IMO their bitching about Bush is somewhat disingeuous. Most learnned their lesson and voted for Kerry, so I'm willing to put it behind but at the same time, not voting for Gore was a mistake regardless. They didn't caare when the time mattered. At the minimum, I'd like to hear more Nader voters simply admit, "I didn't know how bad Bush would be". I want to heaer more Nader voters admit, that while Clinton was far from perfect and while his presidency could have accomplished much more, we were spoiled by it. I wasn't old enough to live through the Reagan years, but I hhad read enough and seen the repuke congress to know how they would act whehn they would have FULL POWER. I get the impression thaht many of thee Nader voteers my age simply had no clue how different Bush would be. It takes some courage in admitting that much. My friend did. It shows a lack of foresight and a poor judgement but I'm willing to leave it behind.

As bluestateguy said, the typical Nader voter and IMO the typical green voter, is relatively pampered and in good state financially. Typically greens are white and upper middle class or hhigher. The GP has no chhance of setting up a broad based party with a LARGEE portion of minorities. The tax cuts affected Nader as much as it affected say Dianne Feinstein who voted for them, meaning it helped them both. Sure enough, I recall reading that his average donors were the wealthiest by far compared to both Bush and Gore. Sure he didn't take corporate donations, but so what? He didn't have a chancee in hell of winning anything anyways. What the hell difference does a protest vote matter when all it is is for spite? Those that back third parties (on a federal level - local is different) are just as clueless as theh DLCers we love to scorn (and they deserve it too), but I'm not going to sit back and hear more bullshit about Nader being 'right' about anything. That guy is a seelf absorbed ego driven ass hole, who doesn't care about anyone. I can't believe anyone sees any sincerity in him after he decided to run a SECOND time.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. You are right. He did basically go around lying about there being no
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 05:09 AM by applegrove
difference between the two parties.

That stategy is seeming to work in the favor of conservatives in this Canadian election too.

The left wing leader has run around and said things like "that's odd" or "bizarre" when the press asked him to comment on the plans to undo the judiciary (appointed by talent & the esteem they are held in by their peers). No left wing fire there. Yawn if the left wing doesn't give a shit if the Liberals or the Conservatives win.

Seems embittering the left wing is an old neocon trick.

Meanwhile the people going to church are told that "all humanists" are evil, worse than evil, very evil. Slicing and dicing up alliances and parts fo the body politic.

Like taking candy from a baby. Neocons. Just the same old people in power. Nothing special there to look into.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #99
103. That comment in particular still resonates.
"There is no difference between Democrats and Republicans."

Gutter politics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. NDP party in Canada has drunk the same Kool-aid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #99
114. "Seems embittering the left wing is an old neocon trick. "
It appears that somebody finally picked up the clue phone! Thank YOU!

:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #114
122. Who's bitter here?
The Nader Haters have so much blood in their eyes, the point of the OP has been mostly ignored.

Maybe they are the ones who are "tools" of the Rong Wing-- so bent on blaming Nader for everything that's happened for the past five years, they are determined to ignore the lessons of losing those voters and reject facing the issues (that's what the OP was about, btw) that drew potential voters elsewhere.

By the way, everyone, there is another party called GREEN and Greens voted for their party's candidate.

Oh and then there's that whole Gore actually WON thing.



Disengaging from discussion where there's too little comprehension and too much hostility is not a "cop out."


omega minimo (1000+ posts) Sat Jan-21-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. You misunderstand & and are arguing with someone else, not me
Not at all what "the implication is."

Homey don't play dat

mzmolly (1000+ posts) Sun Jan-22-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #93
112. That's a cop out "homey."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. Perhaps you can clarify your "point" as it's being "misunderstood" on a
mass level by people who don't generally have trouble with reading comprehension?

Many people are dead/starving/freezing/out of work this winter because Ralf said "there is no difference." I'll admit that I'm bitter about the fact that supporters of a political opponent come here and peddle "Ralf love" and I'm supposed to agree with it, or be called a "Nader hater." If the fact that I oppose Nader (a political opponent) on a political discussion board, and I oppose Bush and his political positions (on the same discussion board) means that I "hate" them, so be it.

Now, I realize you love to toss around slogans like "Nader hater" and point to the Gore won thing as evidence Nader was not a factor. However, given the fact that "Gore actually did win" share with me what exactly he should have done differently in 2000? Doesn't that make your whole "Nader was enlightened and if only Gore were in back in 2000" BS, fall apart - quick like? If Gore won, your point is moot.

Nader assisted Bush in election theft and as such Gore is not in the Oval Office today.

NADER lied to YOU, he lied to your friends, he lied to Americans and he - like Bush should be held accountable for his LIES, period. Just because he fooled people with a couple accurate statements does not mean the totality of his message should not be examined!

His message was Gore = Bush, tweedle dee and tweedle dum, there is no difference. HE WAS WRONG, "DEAD" WRONG.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ticktockman Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #128
182. Nader's remarkable inability to distinquish differences
His message was Gore = Bush, tweedle dee and tweedle dum, there is no difference. HE WAS WRONG, "DEAD" WRONG.

Agreed. Nader's continued insistence that "there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the two major parties" is truly stunning. Now there may well be important issues on which both major parties are, as Nader would contend, equally wrong. However, his statement also implies that the war in Iraq, with all of its casualties and cost, the mounting federal debt, the stacking of the Supreme Court with conservatives, and a number of other issues do not matter. Only those issues with Nader has deemed important matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ticktockman Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #122
181. Greens Likewise (Still) Need To Face Facts
Edited on Tue Jan-24-06 04:17 AM by ticktockman
The Nader Haters have so much blood in their eyes, the point of the OP has been mostly ignored.

When you post a thread titled "Nader Voters Were Right In 2000 And Dems (Still) Need To Face Facts", what response to you expect? I do NOT put all or most of the blame for Bush's election on Nader. His role as spoiler is according to the rules of a system that both major parties seem to support. At the very least, I don't recall that either of them have made a serious proposal to change it. In addition, there were many other factors in Bush's election.

The fact is, there was plenty of blame to go around. But, if you're going to claim that Nader and his supporters are as pure as the driven snow, you are naturally going to get some criticism. I think that there are ways that Nader could have run an effective campaign without acting as a spoiler. For an explanation, you can read my open letter to Nader at http://instantrunoffvoting.blogspot.com/ . In any event, both the Democrats and Greens made mistakes that helped Bush to get elected. The quicker that both parties can accept that past reality, the quicker they can move forward and deal with the current one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #181
184. "What response do you expect?"
I "expect" that folks might read the OP and consider what it says instead of spew pre-recorded hate.

And if people read it, I wouldn't expect misrepresentation like:

"But, if you're going to claim that Nader and his supporters are as pure as the driven snow"

or comments proving that the OP and thread were not read:

"In any event, both the Democrats and Greens made mistakes that helped Bush to get elected. The quicker that both parties can accept that past reality, the quicker they can move forward and deal with the current one."

Um, yeah. :eyes: Maybe if you read it now, you can help with that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ticktockman Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #184
189. Nader Voters Likewise Need To Face Facts
Edited on Wed Jan-25-06 01:36 AM by ticktockman
I "expect" that folks might read the OP and consider what it says instead of spew pre-recorded hate.

And if people read it, I wouldn't expect misrepresentation like:

"But, if you're going to claim that Nader and his supporters are as pure as the driven snow"

Then you should have no trouble in pointing out where in lead article you admitted that Nader or his supporters could have done anything better. Also, perhaps you can explain the title you chose for this thread - "Nader Voters Were Right In 2000 And Dems (Still) Need To Face Facts". That sounds pretty much as absolutist a statement as Naderites being "as pure as the driven snow".

or comments proving that the OP and thread were not read:

"In any event, both the Democrats and Greens made mistakes that helped Bush to get elected. The quicker that both parties can accept that past reality, the quicker they can move forward and deal with the current one."

What, the fact that I did not accept your premise that Nader Voters were right in 2000 and that Dems need to face facts "proves" that I did not read your OP? You have an awfully high opinion of your powers of persuasion! In fact, I expected you to bow down and beg forgiveness after reading my open letter to Nader at http://instantrunoffvoting.blogspot.com ! (just kidding) The fact is, I did read your OP. Regarding the Abramoff scandal that you mentioned, I have long supported campaign finance reform. That is one of the things that prompted the analysis of campaign financing that I posted at http://home.att.net/~rdavis2/acmpfin.html .

Um, yeah. Maybe if you read it now, you can help with that.

Yeah, and maybe if you read my open letter, you can help as well. I think that Nader could have done much more to strengthen the power of third parties by focusing on the spoiler role that our current electoral system forces them to play. In any case, he got over 2.8 million votes in 2000 but less than half a million in 2004. That sounds to me like quite a few Nader voters decided that they had been wrong in 2000.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #189
191. There is a lot of good information here
Throughout the thread, including from people who started off frothing at the mouth and came back and participated with actual ideas instead of attitude.

I made a proposition in the OP and elsewhere-- we got pretty far past petty slap fights over Nader Hating and if you think that's what the OP was ever about, or that I have anything to "admit," or that in my reply to you I wasn't hoping you were ready to start co-operating, or that I am going to play games with you now, you are sadly mistaken.

:hi:

Wait, here's some gamesmanship for you-- if you and others are annoyed by the OP or title, why didn't anyone think to ask "right about what?"

:bounce:

If you are really interested, check out some of HS's brilliance and ignore the bits that get your goat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #98
113. Bravo!
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #98
115. You're right it is "NOT this shit again"
I don't misunderestimate the audience on DU-- and thought posting in GDP might help-- but so far there is very little sign that all these Nader Haters read or understood the OP.

If one of them posts something in response to what I specifically post and not the KNEE JERK SAME OLD SAME OLD, I will read it and we both might learn sumthin.

So far most of these Nader Haters are missing the point, saying I wrote things I didn't and swarming with old hatred and old arguments.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
100. Nader says Gore is better out of office
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 05:46 AM by JI7
"I think Gore is much better out of office,"

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/383461p-325522c.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #100
116. Aren't we all? Nader is "better" out of office too.
You'd think someone lauded by 'intellectual' liberals - as an intelligent man himself, would realize that when you are not running for President and trying to actually WIN, you can say whatever the frick you want.

Nader can bloviate about anything he wants and have his comments go unchecked, because he's got 1% of the vote. The media doesn't hold him accountable, and his supporters don't either. The media gives Nader a mic only BECAUSE he harms Democrats.

As I say - over 200 people ran for President in 2004. Only Kerry, Bush and Nader got air time. I can understand why Kerry and Bush got some press, but Nader? Nader got air for the same reason the Swiftboat Vets did ... to assist Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #116
145. it also shows that he still doesn't get it
after everything the asshole has done in office. how can he say Gore is better out of office. it's like some entertainment game to him. yeah, Gore is saying things to make us cheer now. but Gore did and said things in 2000 to make me cheer also. things which showed there was a huge difference between the parties.

imagine all the things that would be different if we had Gore (or Kerry or any other Dem) in office now. we would have our justices on the court. Katrina, Iraq. 9/11 while i can't say we would have totally avoided it, i do believe with Gore in office we could have stopped some of the hijackers.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #145
146. I agree with every word.
I tend to forgive those who "learn" from life's experiences, but those who don't - lose my patience right quick. I think Nader is smart enough to learn something, but as a narcissist he isn't interested?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ticktockman Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
101. An Open Letter to Ralph Nader
It was up to the Democrats to address those vital issues and it still is.

On the contrary, it's up to everyone, including Greens, to use their brains. Following is an open letter that I wrote to Nader during the last presidential election:

On July 9, 2004, Ralph Nader and Howard Dean debated the role of third parties in U.S. elections. The debate was sponsored by NPR and can be heard online at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3262027. A transcript of the the debate is at http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Dean_Nader_Debate_July9_2004.htm. I was happy to hear both Nader and Dean endorse Instant Runoff Voting (IRV), a method for fixing the "spoiler" problem. This system of voting is described at http://www.instantrunoff.com/irv.asp. IRV allows a voter to vote for a third party candidate without the fear of throwing the election to the major party candidate that they like least. This would allow a qualified third party to steadily build support, something that is not currently possible.

I think that Nader could best publicize this issue by running his campaign to promote his positions but dropping out just before the election, stating that he is forced to do so by the current system so that he does not act as a spoiler. He could then recommend that his supporters vote for the candidate who has best taken up his positions or that he most supports. That, at least, would give him some political leverage and the major parties, as well as the people, might give a little more thought to addressing this issue. In any case, this would be much more responsible than acting as a spoiler.

Ironically, a spoiler is most likely to throw the election to the candidate who he is least like. During the debate, Nader asked the question: "And if you don't vote your conscience, I'd like to hear from you about what part of your body you are voting". I would propose that, in not facilitating Bush's election by voting for Nader, that voter is voting their BRAIN. Nader likewise needs to exercise his brain along with his well-developed conscience.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #101
119. Right on!
Welcome to DU! :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
102. ya know part of me feels like anyone who didnt vote for kerry or Gore
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 06:05 AM by DanCa
is helping the bush administration keep me confined to a wheel chair. I hate to say it but thats the way I feel at times because stem cell research and wont get passed by this administration and a bush court and as such the greatest hope for a parkinson's cure will lay out of grasp.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #102
111. Very well put. Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
104. Nader voters helped Bush take over. That's the fact, Jack.
And I'll not let them forget it soon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #104
108. You got it. "Vote Nader - elect a Neocon"
Edited on Sun Jan-22-06 10:09 AM by Lastlaughin08
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
110. Nader voters - manipulated by a RW tool. No difference my ass!
The attacks on Gore went hand in hand with the RW ones - and the voting for Nader was only a minimal effect of the "no difference" BS. The ugliest of all was
NO VOTING
Vilifying and simplifying the democratic process - Nader and his little naive trust fund babies helped potential voters feel powerless and disinterested.
There's a reason nader got so much attantion from the corporate media both in 2000 and in 2004 (when other minor candidates polled much better). he was a crucial tool in the fascist message:
elections are shit. let's flip a coin
I hope people know better today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #110
118. Exactly!
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lone_Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
120. Bush is a fuck up... he should have been handidly defeated in 2000...
Bush is an absolute joke and Gore should have destroyed him in the debates. Gore had the advantages of incumbancy, a great economy, and had been the most politically active VP to that point. Had Gore run a more effective, populist campaign, he would have easily defeated Bush.

If you want to blame somebody, blame the media who pushed the Gore exaggerates line for the GOP. Blame how they portrayed him as a stiff, mechanical robot instead of the fired-up Gore we saw in the opening of minutes of Fahrenheit 9/11.

Nader has a very valid point in an election system where Bush is taken seriously and can win is seriously flawed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #120
123. ...which is why, in 2000, some voters chose issues over strategy
:patriot:

Great points, thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #120
152. Bush WAS DEFEATED.
Until you understand the simple truth about the stolen elections, all your political comentary is inane and irrelevant.

BUSH LOST.TWICE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. Stolen elections+media denial+public denial+BBV+Bush SCOTUS+
no immediate election reform or campaign finance reform (due to more media/public denial and compromised Congress) =

"Why vote? It doesn't matter anyway"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lone_Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #152
187. Notice that I said handidly defeat....
Religious zealots aside, Bush's base represents about 1% of the U.S. population otherwise known as the moneyed Elite. The RNC and their PR machine manages to convince about 40% of Americans to vote for their candidates which is truly AGAINST their best interests.

If the system worked, and the Dems ran a true populist campaign, then Repukes would be defeated hands down in EVERY election. Probably along the lines of 8 Dems votes for every 2 Repuke votes.

I do believe the elction was stolen, which validifies Nader's point that a system where Bush can become President is flawed.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
124. Nader voters were right WING, WRONG, and THEY need to face facts.
We have a two party system, not three, not more, causing that
We have a lousy two-party voting system, not instant runoff, nor one office-runner one vote.
Vote outside the lousy confines, is a vote for worst choice.

One can only vote for Nader if one watches the polls, BUT,
the polls do not account for dirty tricks, lawsuits, recount problems, et. al.

We can barely count our vote as it stands.
We have dropped the backup of election day polling.
We do not employ election watchers.
Our media do not report such problems anyway.

Nader running is merely a ruse run by a blind ego to his faulty logic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #124
135. LOL!
:wtf: :puke: :eyes: :spray: :spank: :nopity: :crazy:

Nader voters were right WING, WRONG, and THEY need to face facts.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2382926&mesg_id=2384245

And one thing is certain, progressives are no longer supporting a system that is not seen as representing progressive principles and values. It's as plain and simple as that.

So how about it, eh?

Abolish the Electoral College System, and implement Proportional Representation along with IRV, thereby forever eliminating the problem of the "Spoiler" vote
:think:

:D :party: :hug: :toast: :grouphug: :party: :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #135
147. I'd love it if Nader ran smartly.
Pick one or two small states, or a state with proportional electorates such as Nebraska. Have himself win an electoral vote or two at least. In these tight elections, one or two electoral votes could leave him in a major bargaining position.

Smart people/progressives/whatevers SUPPORT BUSHism by:
. voting for Nader.
. not voting.
. not voting because "no longer support a system that is not seen as representing progressive principles and values."
. not voting because of ANY INSERTABLE PROSE.
. voting for some other third party candidate.
. moving out of the country.
If you know any of these people, please, swiftly place your foot one foot beyond the end of their buttocks.

. IRV, instant runoff voting would be great. Won't hold my breath. Our reps won't like it, and thusly won't do it. And, sadly, too many Dems have no guns, so it won't happen.

Call me old-fashioned but I like the electoral college. I wish it had worked in the '04 election seeing a problem in the vote count the college should have decided it. The idea that the popular vote does not perfectly parallel the EC looks screwy, but within a few percent is fine since the campaigning is done based correctly on winning the EC not the PV. Were the EC gone and popular vote ruled the campaigning would have changed to match the new rule. Next we'd have problems with some states stuffing ballot boxes to have more effect in national elections. The campaigns would move to big cities only. States would be less players, testing ground for testing government ideas. People would calculate that X number of states were won and yet that candidate lost. (So what!) Yet, it would be whined and opined.

Naw. Keep the EC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #147
149. There Will Be More New Party's Running in Presidential Elections
Edited on Mon Jan-23-06 02:26 AM by radio4progressives
Abolishing the Electoral College is the only way to remove the "Spoiler" component in future elections.

IRV is not the only alternative, it may not even be the best. I've just read some reports about an hour ago regarding other voting methods which are less subject to corruption as the EC, and some say IRV has similar weaknesses, though different from EC, of course.

I'll post that link.

Regardless of method, EC does not serve this country now that Women and African Americans have the "Right" to vote.

EC was designed at a time where only the Land Barons were allowed to vote, (and merchants, and bankers the wealthy elite)and it was more practical for the way things were in those times.

But it is not suitable for a pluralistic electorate, and we continue to tolerate it at our own peril, particularly when it does such violence to a genuine participatory democracy.

The problems with the 2000, 2004 elections will continue to be repeated because Third and Fourth Parties will continue to be at play.

I strongly urge that serious consideration be given to this new paradigm, and reconsider the idea of propping up a system that is working against your better interest. ;)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #149
150. Cloneproof Schwartz Sequential Dropping (CSSD) Method
apparently CSSD is considered much more superior to IRV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method

and also Ranked Pairs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_Pairs

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarienComp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
125. I still like pie.
Discuss.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. mmmmmmmm ... floor pie
circa 2002 Homer Simpson.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
127. Mixed Feelings; Nader is Right, but Voting Non-Democratic...?
Hi, omega minimo. I believe if you separate this issue and make two aspects of it--Nader, as opposed to voters--it makes it easier to think about, and actually, I think that was what you were doing, as the very first paragraph tells it: "It was up to the Democrats and their candidate to address those vital issues--or risk losing the voters who KNEW what was at stake and that the U.S. was heading toward inevitable disaster," and, next paragraph, "It was up to the Democrats to address those vital issues and it still is." I believe that was your actual point.

First of all, I think almost all intelligent-thinking people would agree that, regardless of how the vote went, Ralph Nader was the single best candidate both years. Just thinking off the top of my head, at Nader's accomplishments, we would not even be living in the same world if not for the consumer action, lawsuits, and education of Nader and Nader's groups. There would not even be automotive recalls and free replacement of defective parts if not for Nader, or headrests on seats that reduce paralysis from whiplash and neck injury to very small numbers now, added shoulderstraps rather than just the dangerous, old lap seatbelts, or even the electronic fuel injection system itself, more reliable than the old carbeurator--it was Nader who forced that change on them. Starting all the way back to the early '60s and the best-selling book "Unasfe at Any Speed," about the Corvair, Nader has been a lifelong public servant saint, with no scandal of any kind attached. My older brother actually had a Corvair, and I remember it. Everybody loved that car, but as I recall (all these years later), it would have a periodic build-up of some kind of dangerous gas right in the passenger compartment, and I remember my brother driving around during the Winter with the windows open, so you could breathe. There used to be no recourse for people, before Nader.

Nader sued the FDA for food safety violations, pushed for food content labels, and exposed the indifference of GM stockholders to social concerns and their corporation's ill-effects; GM was always a huge Nader target. Nader invented the Center for Auto Safety (headed by the great Joan Claybrook), the Center for Responsive Politics, Public Citizen, and the groups that expose drug dangers--Dr. Sidney Wolfe and others--are Nader groups. Nader's crusade against corporate crime and corruption became so popular during the '70s that there were thousands of "Nader's Raiders" filing lawsuits, printing publications, getting reforms, that help us still today. Nader was the most-often-featured guest on the great old (real) Phil Doanhue morning program. I hesitate to criticize the great public servant saint, Ralph Nader, even as I realize the problem here. (By the way, you notice how "D"LC, Inc. jumps right in here to attack, claiming "Florida--where Bush beat Gore by 537 votes.." and that this is supposedly Nader's fault? ...But Gore WON Florida and it was stolen by Republicans and their Supreme Court, so it cannot possibly have been Nader's fault, as Gore WON. They will, oddly, never admit it, because then they could not manipulate an attack on Democrats--"left, "liberal"--but would have to criticize their Republican "friends.")

The other part of the issue, that of voting for a third-Party or independant candidate, is, it seems to me, similar ot the present situation in Canada, where they are upset at the Liberal Party because of the graft, etc., of the "sponsorship scandals," payoffs, etc., yet fear the Conservatives so much that they have to vote for Paul Martin (at the center of the scandal), and not at all for the NDP, which is actually the best Party, with all the great ideas for government programs. You wouldn't dare lose your chance to keep the Conservatives out, because this current group is really scary, a way that Canadians have never been. They are generally liberal as a majority.

You are right to state that Democrats--the official Party, taken over by the corporate-Republican-funded "D"LC, Inc.--have led to this. After all the years of corporate deregulation and privilege, loss of manufacturing jobs, corporate tax scams and subsidies, deregulated media, deregulated banking/credit card/insurance/pharmaceutical/oil and gas/electronic technologies, all now forming a horrific conglomerate of oppression, unwinnable for us now, because there are no separations or even separate corporations--and most of this began under Clinton, who was attacking "old-style Democrats" and converting all government programs that used to help people, to subsidies for corporate "friends," just like a Republican the whole time. Now we are at a situation where, once, no one believed we could ever be, and if you think any of this would have happened with the great public servant lawyer Ralph Nader there to stop it, you are completely ignorant. Clinton even cut out the Carter Center from being able to negotiate as a para-governmental entity, which had been very successful as a negotiator even during Bush I. Strange--why?

...But as Harry Reid recently put it, "Well, I would only say that I think--and I agree with my Republican friends on this, of course, and I'm certainly no liberal by any stretch, but I think that, even as Laura Bush recently said, and I send all my best wishes as I'm sure the whole country does to our President and I hope everything turns out all right--speaking of which, I supported the Bankruptcy Bill, so you know I'm, I'm, right on board there, too, and the probl--well, what I meant, certainly not to criticize, or seem to, the President, whom we all support, and hope the troops do get home eventually, but if I have offended any Republicans, certainly, I retract my strong remarks, and apologize. Thank you." If we had real, fighting, middle class, non-corporate Democrats running and attacking the whole corporate system that has actually replaced government now, we wouldn't have to worry about third Parties or anything else; but of course, you mentioned that too, omega minimo ("We the people"). If official Democrats want us to vote and fight for them, as I always do, then they have to stop sabotaging us every time, and return to our country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. There WAS a point!
"It was up to the Democrats and their candidate to address those vital issues--or risk losing the voters who KNEW what was at stake and that the U.S. was heading toward inevitable disaster," and, next paragraph, "It was up to the Democrats to address those vital issues and it still is." I believe that was your actual point.

*Yes and in order to look forward, not back. To right NOW in fact. The voters and issues that have been pushed to the fringe of the party are the ones that are most vital and urgent.

"(By the way, you notice how "D"LC, Inc. jumps right in here to attack, claiming "Florida--where Bush beat Gore by 537 votes.." and that this is supposedly Nader's fault? ...But Gore WON Florida and it was stolen by Republicans and their Supreme Court, so it cannot possibly have been Nader's fault, as Gore WON."

*Funny, huh? :evilfrown:

They will, oddly, never admit it, because then they could not manipulate an attack on Democrats--"left, "liberal"--but would have to criticize their Republican "friends.")

*Well, there you've nailed it HS. The rabid reaction to the OP shows the defense mechanisms set up to protect politicians' symbiotic relationship with the same corporate forces that are creating the problems.

"......After all the years of corporate deregulation and privilege, loss of manufacturing jobs, corporate tax scams and subsidies, deregulated media, deregulated banking/credit card/insurance/pharmaceutical/oil and gas/electronic technologies, all now forming a horrific conglomerate of oppression, unwinnable for us now, because there are no separations or even separate corporations--and most of this began under Clinton, who was attacking "old-style Democrats" and converting all government programs that used to help people, to subsidies for corporate "friends," just like a Republican the whole time."

*Yup. That hurt Gore in 2000. Arguably it began under Reagan/Bush I and continued with Clinton/Gore.

...But as Harry Reid recently put it, "Well, I would only say that I think--and I agree with my Republican friends on this, of course, and I'm certainly no liberal by any stretch, but I think that, even as Laura Bush recently said, and I send all my best wishes as I'm sure the whole country does to our President and I hope everything turns out all right--speaking of which, I supported the Bankruptcy Bill, so you know I'm, I'm, right on board there, too, and the probl--well, what I meant, certainly not to criticize, or seem to, the President, whom we all support, and hope the troops do get home eventually, but if I have offended any Republicans, certainly, I retract my strong remarks, and apologize. Thank you."

*It's hard to believe that's a quote and not a parody......

"If we had real, fighting, middle class, non-corporate Democrats running and attacking the whole corporate system that has actually replaced government now..." (which is the definition of facsism and the haters need to catch up and face facts and expect their leaders to face facts or find new leaders) "....we wouldn't have to worry about third Parties or anything else; but of course, you mentioned that too, omega minimo ("We the people"). If official Democrats want us to vote and fight for them, as I always do, then they have to stop sabotaging us every time, and return to our country."

*Well said. :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #127
151. "Ralph Nader was the single best candidate both years"
I disagree and even if Nader HAD a chance, I would still have voted for either Gore or Kerry over him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #151
154. Please don't miss the rest of HS's excellent post due to that one
arguable point.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #154
170. I get the point
Edited on Mon Jan-23-06 07:46 PM by fujiyama
but I find it a cliched and tortured defense of a poor decision on the part of that 2.7 million that gave their vote to Nader (OK, maybe not all of them, but a majority sure didn't want to see the policies enacted in the last few years).

I'm not going to defend the DLC or their corporate friendly policies - and I view them as the other side of the problem with the party. But it showed an INCREDIBLE lack of understanding and cluelessness about the political process in seeing poll after poll showing a dead heat and then voting against the only viable candidate that could stem the tide of a RW onslought that wouldn't be reversed for many decades (we KNEW theh next president would get to appoint onee or two SC justices). Sure, we didn't think they would actually steal an election OUTRIGHT but it still doesn't matter. Enough of us knew he would be bad enough. Many of us either lived through or read enough about the Reagaan years to know that thehy were much worse than the Clinton years. I'm sure many Nader voters knew that also but felt Clinton let thehm down. Fine, I understand why many would be disappointed with Clinton. I'm not going to defend all of his policies but I knew all the while he had aa repuke congress and thaht he was better than every other repuke I saw. We also saw the way repukes acted with Clinton in office. One of tthe most convincing things for me was an aarticlee in the Nation (certainly this magazine is pure enough, no?) before the eleection showing all theh garbage legistlation Clinton had vetoed - all the shit that haas been passed in these God awful five years. It also showed the great impact the president had in shaping theh judiciary - somethhing a large number of 'activists' either didn't know enough or caree enough about. But tthat's not surprising. Nader himself called feminism and gay rights 'gonadal politics'.

I'm not asking for an apology. I don't even believe we need a defense from Nader voters. I won't say 'told you so'. Such statemeents would be petty and immature. Nader voters did what theey felt was right. Their concept of righteousness is different from mine though. We all haave to deal withh thee sitiation we're in now.

I'm willing to put the '00 election behind. Nader voters showed poor judgement thaat year. Most learned their lesson though and voted for Kerry in '04. But by starting this thread, you did thhe same thhing several other posters have done in bitching about Nader in recent weeks. It's irrelevant. He's irrelevant. If you want those of us that understood the threat of this administration beforehand, then defending Nader and his campaign is nothing more than a bitter defense of a deluded, egomaniac. If you want a debate over tthe direction of the party, then go righht ahead. That's whaat this site is for. Few here support policies like the bankruptcy bill or the Iraq War resolution.

Hell, I would even be able to look past Nadere's first election haad he not run in '04. Once he did thaht though, he cemented his place in history as the craackpot candidate. It's too bad. He did quite a bit of good back in the day. Almost tragic. Somewhaat sad, and truly very pathetic how far he has fallen.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #170
176. I'm gonna wade in here
through the jabs about "pure enough" and "righteousness" (speaking of "cliched and tortured") to acknowledge that you "get the point" and ask: Where does that leave us? If, as you say, a majority of 2.7 potential Democratic voters (no one much brings up the fact that Greens are Greens and not beholden to vote for the Democratic party candidate) voted for Nader, is it worthwhile to keep demonizing them and avoiding the issues that drew them away in 2000?

If we are facing a compromised Congress and corrupt corporate government as we are now, maybe it's time to revisit the issues that --maybe thanks to the demonization of Nader-- still seem "fringe" or "extreme" or god some people still think they're :tinfoilhat: when in fact they are CENTRAL, CRUCIAL AND IMMEDIATE to what is going on in this country (and in Iraq and Afghanistan) RIGHT NOW.

Maybe "he's irrelevant" but the issues are not.

:kick:

"I'm not asking for an apology. I don't even believe we need a defense from Nader voters. I won't say 'told you so'."

If I asked for an apology, it would be from all the people who voted for Reagan, the original imbecile-in-chief, whose mindless grin and homocidal policies paved the way for King George.

And I will say "I told you so."


:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #170
178. I Only Vote for Democrats
I'm not sure if I missed the point of your overheated message, or if you missed the point of mine, but I just want to make clear, if you were confused on this point--I did not vote for Nader, ever. I voted for Gore, then Kerry; I vote Democratic. I am not clear, from the tone of your message(s) if you were confused on that specific point, but I wanted that made clear. I have respect for the lifetime of public service Ralph Nader has given, which has given us many legal protections and the entire modern consumer protection movement. I do not vote for third Parties. I want our Democratic Party back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
129. Do Repugs want u to hate Nader/voters to demonize the issues he raised?
from OP

Even with the “Culture of Corruption” sound bite and the rush to wiping up the lobbyist gravy train, the symptoms -- not the causes -- are being treated with band aids. Both parties seem to be in too much of a hurry to look like they are closing lobbying loopholes, rather than correcting the real problems of corporate control of Congress, the elections, the media and the White House.

Al Gore:

The Abramoff scandal is but the tip of a giant iceberg that threatens the integrity of the entire legislative branch of government. It is the pitiful state of our legislative branch which primarily explains the failure of our vaunted checks and balances to prevent the dangerous overreach by our Executive Branch which now threatens a radical transformation of the American system.
..........
We -- as Lincoln put it, "even we here" -- must examine our own role as citizens in allowing and not preventing the shocking decay and degradation of our democracy. Thomas Jefferson said: "An informed citizenry is the only true repository of the public will."
...........
The revolutionary departure on which the idea of America was based was the audacious belief that people can govern themselves and responsibly exercise the ultimate authority in self-government.
............
The constricted role of ideas in the American political system today has encouraged efforts by the Executive Branch to control the flow of information as a means of controlling the outcome of important decisions that still lie in the hands of the people.

INCLUDING ELECTIONS.

WHO IS HE TALKING ABOUT, WHO "CONTROLS THE FLOW OF INFORMATION AS A MEANS OF CONTROLLING THE OUTCOME OF IMPORTANT DECISIONS?"

“WE MUST DISENTHRALL OURSELVES, AND THEN WE SHALL SAVE OUR COUNTRY.”


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. Nader was right, serious folk voted for Gore, & Bush stole the election
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
klook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
133. God DAMN you, Charles Jay!!
Why does this asshole keep pretending his campaign didn't hurt the Democrats in 2004???



And don't even get me started on Muadin and Da Vid!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. Probably because he wasn't a continual guest of the corporate controlled
media? You know a "progressive" running against Gore and Kerry who was a spoiler for Dems - that sort of thing.

Here is another person (of the 200 plus who ran for Prez in 04) who lacked "free media" access:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
137. Do a search on Nader and CSE or Nader and Oregon Family Council.
Ask yourself why he accepted so much from these very right wing groups. Ask why they gave hin support and gathered petitions for him.

Ask.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
143. HAHAHA
That great man Al Gore would've been president if not for Bush-surrogate Ralph Nader. It's highly ironic that you praise Gore in a thread saying that Nader was right. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. Even more ironic: the Nader Haters can't figger out what the OP is about
:shrug:



"That great man Al Gore would've been president if not for Bush-surrogate Ralph Nader."

Too easy and untrue. Holding onto that prevents the NH from seeing the larger issues and the need for Dems to face them NOW.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
148. Screw Ralph Nader! He gave us Bush on a silver platter...
I'm so sick of hearing from Naderites who wanted everything their way or the highway and who cost Al Gore the election in 2000. If it were not for them we would be in the middle of Al Gore's second term and things would be much better now.

They split the vote and definitely cost Gore Florida thus the election. (98,000 approximately went to Nader in a state where Bush "won" by 537 votes.)

There was nothing at all wrong with Gore, he is a decent man and well qualified to be President but the whole 2000 Nader campaign was based on the LIE that there was no difference between Bush and Gore. After 5 years it is ALL TOO CLEAR THAT THERE WAS A HUGE DIFFERENCE:

It is the difference between:

Honesty and Lying
Integrity and Rationalizing
Competence and Incompetence
Compassion and Neglect
Intelligence and Willful Ignorance
Respect for the Constitution and "the Unitary Executive"
Forward Planning and Backwards Thinking
Trusting the People and Spying on them.
Being Prepared and "Faith Based" disaster planning.. (i.e. Bush apparently had a lot of misplaced "faith" in "Brownie")
Helping the Poor and Helping the Rich
Diplomacy and Militarism
Respect for Science and obsession with Religion
It's the economy stupid and Fear Incorporated
Open accountable government and secret executive orders

Thanks a lot Ralph Nader...

Doug D.
Orlando, FL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #148
155. Good post. Too bad it has nothing to do with this particular OP
You are tilting at windmills in your mind of "Naderites who wanted everything their way or the highway and who cost Al Gore the election in 2000."

Bush is the one saying "You're with us or against us" not me. I am bringing up issues that Nader publicly addressed that Democrats are loathe to approach, then and now. The reluctance or refusal to face those issues and DEAL WITH them will continue to damage Democrats, who are now in a life or death struggle with Bush Co.

Not least of the issues of corporate control and influence is election fraud. The election was stolen and the Supreme Court gave you "Bush on a silver platter." Denying that the electorate was defrauded of their rightful president by continuing to hate Nader and blame Nader voters fits right into the Wrong Wing tactics of distracting voters from the fact that HOW THEY VOTE MAY NEVER MATTER EVER AGAIN. How or IF we vote, may not be up to us at all unless Democrats grow a backbone and demand immediate campaign and election reform... Plus all those incidental investigations into the crimes of the WH handed to you by Republicons and the SCOTUS.

There is some life in the party, there are some heroes and brave souls who stand up to TPTB. We need more of them. Right now.

Finally, Al Gore was a "decent man" but he was part of a Clinton administration that continued the slippery slide down the slope of corporatization, privatization and erosion of our civil rights. The candidate that addressed those issues in 2000, whoever it was, would draw votes away from Democrats who-- in that regard-- really are indistinct from the Republican agenda. THAT SAME SITUATION EXISTS TODAY. Only worse. The corporate overlords have an even tighter grip on the throat of the republic-- that is the fault of all Republicans and all Democrats and everyone in between who supports policies that give all power to corporations and take it away from people. Not Ralph Nader.

:bounce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #155
161. It all boils down to Nader cost Gore the election.
Spin it however you like. That's the fact and that's why Bush is President. There is no other reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. Keeps you stuck in the past ignoring everything that's been said here
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
157. Blaming Nader for Bush = Monday morning QBing.
I highly doght most Nader voters knew * was going to be the fuck-up he was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #157
167. I think most Nader voters knew how much of a fuck up * would be
What they didn't predict is...

1) That the election would be as close as it was

2) That 9/11 would happen giving Bush the ability to pass his agenda.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #167
172. Who knew how many dopes would vote for him?
Edited on Mon Jan-23-06 08:05 PM by omega minimo
because they "would like to have a beer with him"?
:puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
165. Nader was right.
I think we need to clarify the difference between saying Nader was right and Nader voters were right. I support the first but wonder about the second. I fully support the freedoms in our country and want people to express themselves through voting, but.....those votes that didn't go for Gore probably hurt us. Before anyone flames me, I know there's data out there refuting that claim but there's also data supporting that claim - and we all know data is one of the most manipulated things in the world (almost as much as the American people under Bush!).

Sometimes we have to look at the big picture and decide what's really going to be best in the long run. I don't think anyone really thought Nader would win but their vote was to make a point. I understand that and I personally would love to see a 3-party (or 4-party) system - but while we can work for that in the future we also need to work for responsible leadership now.

That's just my take on it.

I love this quote from your post because I really think this is a bigger problem than having a green or independent candidate or not - the general apathy of the American people is really why we are where we are today:
And it is "We the people" who must now find once again the ability we once had to play an integral role in saving our Constitution. And here there is cause for both concern and great hope. The age of printed pamphlets and political essays has long since been replaced by television - a distracting and absorbing medium which sees determined to entertain and sell more than it informs and educates. Lincoln's memorable call during the Civil War is applicable in a new way to our dilemma today: "We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. "general apathy of the American people is really why we are where we are"
"We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country."

Here's another good quote:

DAVID BRANCACCIO: Why has the president angered you so?

KURT VONNEGUT: Well, because he shouldn't be president. Is-- we ought to have a stronger person. And he's obviously an actor in a made for TV movie. And other people are, in fact, telling him what to say.

Of course, we have only a one party government. It's the winners. And then everybody else is the losers. And, the winners divided into two parties. The Republicans and the Democrats.

DAVID BRANCACCIO: Well, you write in the book you say that the last election, the two leading candidates were two C students from Yale, as you put it.

KURT VONNEGUT: Two members of Skull and Bones at Yale, for God's sake. If I mean, that's what a charade the combat between the Republicans and the Democrats is. It's rich kids. Winners on both sides. So the winners can't lose. And, of course, the losers have no representation in Congress or whatever.

But look, yeah. We had to choose between two members of Skull and Bones? What about if we had to choose between two members of Sigma Chi at Purdue? Wouldn't somebody have said what a minute. What the hell happened here?

DAVID BRANCACCIO: But you're saying you don't see senior political figures really, anybody representing the interests of people who are struggling?

KURT VONNEGUT: No, are not representing the American people. And, so there are people who made a hell of a lot of money one way or another. Making it during the war, incidentally. As you know, maybe the war is a bad idea. But some people are making a ton of money off of it. And they want to hang on to whatever they've got. And so they bank roll political campaigns for both Republicans and Democrats. Look, we're awful animals. We can start with that. You know, it's a whole human experiment, if that's what we are.

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcriptNOW140_full.html

We don't necessarily need a 3 or 4 party system if what we have now is a one party system, two wings of the corporate party, the rich kids, the winners divided into two parties.

Vonnegut asks "Wouldn't somebody have said what a minute. What the hell happened here?" Who's saying that now? Who is standing up to this Emperor in his invisible robe and crying HORSESHIT!!!!!!!!!

The issues Nader raised and Greens and Progressives and lots of non-voters care about are the ones that everybody knows (by now, on DU and beyond) but nobody likes to talk about.

This has become a country by, for and of the corporations. "And it is "We the people" who must now find once again the ability we once had to play an integral role in saving our Constitution." Al Gore challenged both the Congress and the people to fulfill their true roles in this grand experiment in self-government. As you say, apathy is "really why we are where are."



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #171
177. It really does boil down to corporations.
Take any major issue - war, AIDS, health care, oil prices, ecological destruction, poverty, etc - all of it can be traced back to corporate greed.

Capitalism isn't what we thought it would be in the long run. I'm not promoting a pure socialist environment either - I think either extreme is wrong. Something in between would be good. And, no matter what system you have, the most important component of it might just be checking greed and corruption. Because once that takes over, nothing good can come about, no matter how hard you try.

I have to say - I'm watching Oprah right now as I type this (her show is repeated at 9pm here in our market) and I'm grateful for her show this evening - it's discussing terrorism and what people should really be afraid of (and, ok, that's a bit of a marketing ploy), but it's also educating some people who are clueless about international relations. It's touching on the Bush inability in international relations and the need for Americans to wake up and be more aware of global issues. I hope it makes a few wake up and take notice. Because right behind checking greed and corruption would be making sure the people of our nation actually take a part in shaping this nation. And I'm not sure how to get through to some of these people. I find it very frustrating.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #177
179. Well then
"And, no matter what system you have, the most important component of it might just be checking greed and corruption."

1. No corporate "personhood" privileges

"And I'm not sure how to get through to some of these people."

2. Public education that doesn't produce zombies



I saw that O. Started with premise that the OBL tape was authentic and "proved first of all that he is alive and well."

Unfortunately her producers decided to associate the peace movement with OBL in videotape accompanying some speechifying from Thomas Friedman. Editorializing to her millions of viewers, searing their eyeballs with images of Bin Laden and peace marchers superimposed AS IF they have the same motives and objectives. Saying he hopes to encourage them or some such rot. Really irresponsible. Dangerous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
169. I'll only vote for candidates that have a REAL chance of winning
It may not be fair or the "best" way, but I'll be damned if I'll let another Bush-like party drag the country down the drain.

2000 was a bitter lesson we must never forget. A house divided cannot stand.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
174. Nader had no chance in hell of being elected
he served as tool to help republicans steal the election
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-23-06 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
175. If they knew what was at stake
why didn't they vote for Gore.

Nah. Sorry. Not buyin' it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
180. Nader should have fought Bush & backed the DEMs in 2004.
If he had done that, I would not mind a little constructive criticism from his likes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #180
190. That is EXACTLY the point.
Too late to comment from the peanut gallery on Bush. He has blood on his hands.


I still have a part of me that doesn't like to hear when people say that someone shouldn't run. We sure didn't mind when Perot took votes from Bush the first. Perot must have known he had no chance, but he did get enough of the vote to make his third party viable for a while. Nader would have done that too in 2000 if the networks wouldn't have fucked it up with their early announcement. I actually blame them more than Nader for 2000.

So, I guess I don't like it much when people blame 2000 on him. But 2004 was a different matter. We knew how bad Bush was, because we had lived through 4 years of Bush. There was no excuse to be a pissant and run out of spite, claiming that Bush and Kerry were the same. How far to the damn left do you have to stand not to see differences!

I dunno. I guess I'm still trying to work it out in my head. I don't want to be against third parties, but even some of the smaller parties figured out they needed to be against Bush in 2004. And I'll not forget that Nader took smear vet money. Sure Ralph, they supported you. Sure they did. Sometimes I think by 2004 that Nader had gone a bit senile. That's about the kindest thing I can attribute his behavior to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
186. I blame Nader for where we are now, he knew he had no chance
of winning yet he ran against Gore anyway. Since he always seems to run against Dems and not Repubs, I have to wonder if he hasn't been on the Republican payroll as a spoiler. If not, than he should have been smart enough to realize he could not win and dropped out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-24-06 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
188. Just One Last Quick Point; Don't Get Distracted From the Real Criminals
Just one more quick point on this issue, about why I don't like this concentration on blaming Ralph Nader for the current Republican fascism and criminality: it lets Republicans off the hook, and shifts the blame away from them, as if they didn't cause the problem at all; "one of us" did. This is exactly like a "D"LC blame-shift, where they never criticize Republicans or corporations, but shift all attack to "liberals" or "leftists."

Post #158, Chemical Bill put it exactly right, "if nader hadn't run, diebold would have manufactured more * votes." I think that was the point, too. It was not some accident or screw-up that put Bush in, as if, if one or two details had been different, then Gore, then Kerry, would have won--they were never going to be allowed to win. If Republicans hadn't done it this way, it would have been that way; Florida this time, Ohio the next. Do you remember how hard they worked, to kill the 2000 "election"? They had people challenging, purging, voters from the rolls, putting out false information about where and on what date to vote, the "white collar riot," when paid Republican staffers disrupted, then stopped, the ballot-counting. There were infiltrations of Democratic or voting-access groups, and hacked e-mails and websites; huge, enormous disinformation campaigns over all media, about the candidates, and the Party. Then, of course, there was the endless round of challenges in State and Federal Court, all the way up to, and doomed at, their Supreme Court. Do you even remember how furiously they litigated every angle of every issue they could think of, on and on? Just like they tried--yet again--to do with the Governor's race in Washington State, where Republicans were actually caught illegally (or, suppossed to be) hiding ballots. Luckily there, the Democrat Christine Gregoire was allowed to win, as she actually did. As a matter of fact, I think John Kerry donated a very large amount of money to help pay for some of the recounts and etc.

We should be a lot more aware of how evil this current Republican Party is, how they all march lock-step and cover up each other's crimes, and not lose the emphasis by blaming an incidental detail as if it were the salient fact here, when it was not. You have to have the courage to face the real enemy, and they are evil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ticktockman Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #188
192. Not Getting Distracted From the Real Criminals
Just one more quick point on this issue, about why I don't like this concentration on blaming Ralph Nader for the current Republican fascism and criminality: it lets Republicans off the hook, and shifts the blame away from them, as if they didn't cause the problem at all; "one of us" did. This is exactly like a "D"LC blame-shift, where they never criticize Republicans or corporations, but shift all attack to "liberals" or "leftists."

I agree that we need to concentrate on those who are consciously implementing policies with which we disagree, not those who may have unintentionally helped them to get into office. Hence, I see no point in heaping blame on Nader or on the Dems (as the title of this thread suggests). Both can and should try to learn from their mistakes. But the main focus should remain on those in power... the Republicans.

Post #158, Chemical Bill put it exactly right, "if nader hadn't run, diebold would have manufactured more * votes."

I have not followed the charges of election fraud that closely but this sounds extremely speculative. However, I do think that we need to make every effort to insure that election fraud, especially the wholesale manufacture of votes, is not possible. Lacking proper safeguards, it is much easier to "stuff" a computer with a large number of electronic votes than it is to stuff a ballot box with a large number of physical votes. We need a system that is 100 percent safe. This may require that the software and hardware be designed in such a way that the details of both can be safely made public. This would open them to as much public scrutiny as possible.

We should be a lot more aware of how evil this current Republican Party is, how they all march lock-step and cover up each other's crimes, and not lose the emphasis by blaming an incidental detail as if it were the salient fact here, when it was not. You have to have the courage to face the real enemy, and they are evil.

I don't think the use of the word "evil" is useful. "Misled" or "irrational" may be better. In addition, I would not attempt to broadbrush everyone in the Republican party. Still, I agree that we have to concentrate on those who are implementing harmful policies, not those who may be opposing them in more or less productive ways.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-25-06 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
193. Locking
This has become a flame-war, in which the lines have not budged an inch in days....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC