The End of Faith - Sam Harris C-Span today.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

I don't know if anyone else saw this earlier today on C-span but it was a great lecture on how religion hurts society by Sam Harris author of "The End of Faith". Mr. Harris presents in very cogent terms what the sinister side of religions like christianity and islam is to civilized societies and if you have an interest in this subject the film is a must see. I cannot find another time it is airing on C-span nor can I find the video but if you get an opportunity to see it by all means do. Below is a couple of comments from Mr. Harries website.

Q & A with Sam Harris

1. In your book you seem to argue for a kind of religious intolerance. Do you mean to suggest
that we need not respect a person’s religious beliefs?
Yes. Our history of religious conflict had led us to be very cautious about criticizing the
religious beliefs of others. We are right to be wary of religious intolerance, but it is time we
recognized that our religious identities have themselves become an increasingly potent source of
human conflict. The notion that God wrote one or another book has always been a source of
dangerous and unnecessary divisions in our world. Given the spread of modern weapons and
other disruptive technology, these divisions are fast becoming antithetical to civilization itself.
Notice that no one is ever faulted in our culture for not “respecting” another person’s
beliefs about mathematics or history. When people have reasons for what they believe, we
consider those reasons, and when they are good, we find ourselves believing likewise. When
they have no reasons, or bad ones, we dismiss their beliefs as a symptom of ignorance, delusion,
or stupidity. Except on matters of religion.

2. Yes, but isn’t religion different?
Only in so far as we treat it differently. We have been lulled into ignoring just how
strange and insupportable many of our religious beliefs are. How comforting would it be to hear
the President of the United States assure us that almighty Zeus is on our side in our war on
terrorism? The mere change of a single word in his speech—from God to Zeus—would
precipitate a national emergency. If I believe that Christ was born of a virgin, resurrected bodily
after death, and is now literally transformed into a wafer at the Mass, I can still function as a
respected member of society. I can believe these propositions because millions of others believe
them, and we have all been taught to overlook how irrational this picture of reality is. If, on the
other hand, I wake up tomorrow morning believing that God is communicating with me through
my hairdryer, I’ll be considered a nut, even in church. The beliefs themselves are more or less
on a par—in so far as they are in flagrant violation of the most basic principles of reason. The
perversity of religion is that it allows sane people to believe the unbelievable en masse.

http://www.samharris.org/press/Q&A-with-Sam-Harris.pdf

[LaurenG]

1. I saw a part of this earlier today, I was impressed with him

Thanks for posting the link. Do you remember who he was speaking for? I was going to write down the web address but had to leave and forgot to write it down.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

2. Here is the listing on C-Span

Speech
The End of Faith
New York Society for Ethical Culture
Sam Harris

http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspan/fullschedule.csp?timeid=212001641940

I have never heard of the guy but am definitely going to read his book.

[LaurenG]

6. Thank you for your help

I think it was something like the Center for Integration. I looked interesting as well. Again, Thank you.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

11. My pleasure

Mr. Harris also has a mailing list you can join if you would like.

http://www.samharris.org/index.php

[Fridays Child]

3. He's excellent. Maxine of Hallmark Greeting Cards fame...

...must have been channeling him, when she observed, "Christmas is just plain weird. What other time of the year do you sit in front of a dead tree in the living room and eat candy out of your socks?"

[grytpype]

4. He's right, religion is the enemy.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

5. And not just in the ME, but here as well. n/t

[Stainless]

7. Religion is a form of insanity........

according to Albert Ellis, the founder of REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy). I first read his Book "A New Guide to Rational Living" over thirty years ago and it changed my life. I quit trying to solve problems from a religious perspective and started using logic and rational thought to solve problems. I soon realized that religion is the root cause of virtually all problems and I am most happy when I am free from religion and its influences.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

10. I too have read Ellis and find him to be very good.

But I find it extremely frighting to live in a country surrounded by people who when the talk turns to religion they become completely irrational. As Mr. Harris points out, the mere act of being critical, which I have been flamed on this site for, about religion, can immediately make one a social outcast.

[guidod]

36. Well said!!

[shenmue]

8. Good one

Glad he had the courage to say it.

:patriot:

[radio4progressives]

9. I caught most of this broadcast.. I was stunned and thrilled that

someone could speak intelligently on this subject.

I was particularly fascinated with his remarks in regards to (paraphrasing broadly) the failings of the "moderate christians", their silence or ignoring the essential crises that fundamentalists have been empowered to create.

lots of great stuff, i've gone to the website for more in depth offerings:

http://www.samharris.org/index.php

[Freedom_from_Chains]

12. You and me both.

It was like I have finally found someone who sees the world in the same terms that I do and not through some magical mystical fantasy, and doesn't have to get condescending to explain it.

[radio4progressives]

19. LOL! The Magical Mystery Tour .... n/t

[Freedom_from_Chains]

28. Or, down the rabbit hole. LOL

[jonnyblitz]

13. I hope this is in the video archive so I can replay it online later.

I didn't catch all of it but I saw him speak before, months ago, when his book first came out (also on CSPAN) plus I read the hardback version of his book back then from my local library. I will buy the paperback version probably tomorrow. His name has been brought up before here at DU and many didn't care for him and you can guess why.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

14. I could not find it on C-Span but if you do find it let me know.

[jonnyblitz]

15. I am not even sure if they keep Book TV stuff in the video archive

like they do with the political stuff. I sure hope so. I will bookmark this thread and if i do find out something I will PM you for sure. :hi:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

17. Thanks.

You might also want to check out this interview with Mr. Harris on Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/542154/002-3223695-3973612

The last part I find particularly chilling but something I have always thought to be true.

Amazon.com: In what sense is your book a kind of "prayer"? Do you think ultimately that humans will be able to avoid the apocalypse that you argue is the greatest threat of religious faith?

Harris: I am not as optimistic as I'd like to be. It is an interesting state to be in, psychologically speaking, because I feel very motivated to make the case against religion, but I don't see any real basis for hope that anything will change for the better. It seems very likely that we have spent too long in the company of bad ideas to now arrest our slide toward the brink. I hope I'm wrong about this, but I would not be surprised if the human experiment runs radically off the rails in our lifetime.

The people who have their hands upon the tiller of civilization are just not thinking, speaking, or allocating resources in the ways they must if we are to avoid catastrophe. The fact that we elect presidents who waste time on things like gay marriage, when the nuclear weapons in the former Soviet Union lie unsecured (to cite only one immediate threat to our survival), is emblematic of how disastrously off course we are (it is also emblematic of the role faith plays in forcing us off course). So I am not hopeful. But still, each of us has to try to contribute positively to the world as we find it. What alternative is there?

[jonnyblitz]

18. I agree with him. we are outnumbered by people willing to believe

some truly unbelievable stuff without requiring proof. they are the majority. we are essentially (((surrounded))). we are the "wierdos". the ones who would never have chance to hold political office if we admit that the emperor has no clothes.

[0007]

42. Off to buy the book this morning....

Can't wait to see Sam.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

44. I got a $100 gift certificat for Christmas

and this will be my first purchase.

[0007]

55. I got the last copy this morning.

Hooray!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

56. After you read it, let's discuss

I will be on vacation until Jan 2nd.

[0007]

57. Be happy too, right now I'm reading Richard Clarke's

latest book. "The Scorpion's Gate"

Let me know when you're ready.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

58. Will do n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. I think religion itself is evolving

Whenever there is great change, there are certain groups who cling to the old ideas-this is not only true of religion, but of political and social change as well. What I see happening is an evolution of religion from dogma to spirituality, to living the teachings of all the great teachers of all faiths, and seeing these teachings as basically saying the same thing-tolerance, detachment, and forgiveness. Mr. Harris appears to be reacting to the reactionaries in the evolution of religion, and, by doing so, I fear he only strengthens their belief system.

[radio4progressives]

20. Well I tell ya, the evolution isn't coming along fast enough..

it's only been about 700 years or so of the same ole same ole dogma..

[Freedom_from_Chains]

21. But, as I have found, any kind of rational logical argument

presented to those who suffer from religiosity serves only to strengthen their resolve in their belief. That is why they cannot be dealt with in rational terms. I would also say that religion, as opposed to evolving, is devolving, in that as it is more and more confronted with science and fact, ie reality, it becomes more and more desperate to preserve itself. Hence the nature of the religious conflicts in the world today.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. Could be because of your concepts of religion and of science.

I may be reading your post wrong, but it seems to me you see a vast difference between religion and science, that there can never be a co-existance, and that science is always fact and always correct, while religion is merely a system of beliefs not grounded in anything scientific or rational.

My particular faith embraces science and evolution, and sees both as part of the grand scheme of things. Personally, I see science itself evolving, as we learn more and more about the universe and our place in it. What is needed, imho, is an open mind as to certain concepts, whether they be about science or about God, knowing that the nature of things is that these concepts will continually change as we get closer and closer to Truth.

[radio4progressives]

24. that's interesting... which religion honors the principles of reason

and science? What is your religion?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. Sufism

more specifically my Order, the Sufi Order International. Haz. Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, late head of the Order, did work with sub atomic physicists and also delved deeply into Jungian psychology. Here are a couple of paragraphs from one of his last books, "In Search of the Hidden Treasure".

(p. 5)
AS our mind takes wing beyond the fragmentaed mode of existential thinking and explores transcenent modes of thinking, it grasps interconnections instead of categories. Precidely as modern physicists do, the mind perceieves anonlocal, acausal realtionship between events--synchronicity rather than linearity. This mode of thinking is very challenging to our conditioned habits of thinking and sparks a sense of freedom and bliss.

In thse explorations into meningfulnees, can you see that our commonplace notions of time are totally inadequate and stand in the way of our understanding the cosmic process in which we are involved? As soon as you grasp that there are dimensions of time beyond the linear process of becoming, which we call the'arrow of time' the persepctives that those who inspire us, the Sufis, have opened come to light.

Page 8-9



Could you accept that the cosmos, as it extends in interstellar, intergalactic space, is one entity, at once fragmented and whole?

...According to the holistic pardigm in sicence, for example, when a crystal is fractured each fragment behaves like the whole crystal. By the same token every fragment, every fragment of the cosmos potentially carries the code of the universe."

[radio4progressives]

35. Isn't there a Sufi poet / profit named Rumi? (something like that?) n/t

[0007]

41. Ah yes, my friend.....one of my faovrites

A Star Without a Name

When a baby is taken from the wet nurse,

it easily forgets her

and starts eating solid food.

Seeds feed awhile on ground,

then lift up into the sun.

So you should taste the filtered light

and work your way toward wisdom

with no personal covering.

That's how you came here, like a star

without a name. Move across the night sky

with those anonymous lights.

Rumi

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

43. A poet

who lived several hundred years ago in Turkey. Right now, translations of his poems are top sellers in this country.

[BoneDaddy]

46. You obviously don't know religions

Reason has been a part of every religion. The war isn't against religion. Rationality can become a "religion" and have it's own fanatical adherents as much as any religion can.

The enemy is fundamentalism which rejects reason. In every religion, there are rational elements, usually within the more liberal/progressive wings of the religion.

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote extensively about the need to have a marriage between faith and reason.


PS... The buddhists and taoists are very rational.

[guidod]

26. Religion has nothing to do

with science. Science is fact. Religion is nothing more than a belief system without facts.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. What are facts?

Perhaps my definition is different from yours, but I'd like a basis so that I understand. To me, facts are those things which can be observed and experienced, usually over time, and by more than one person, and thereby be "proven". Example: water boils at 100 degrees Celcius. This can be observed and tried out by more than one individual, and can be shown to be a fact or not. Of course, in this case, it is a fact but only in certain circumstances-ie, the elevation is not too high, the atmosphere is normal and not pure oxygen, etc, etc. But these would be exceptions that would further define a fact, would they not? Just trying to understand that.

[guidod]

33. There are plenty of facts about

science that are oserved. Cures of many diseases, purifying water to prevent disentery, going to the moon and on and on and on, how much time to you have? You probably don't believe in global warming do you? Please tell me one proven fact about religion.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

48. I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm trying to understand your definitions

As a matter of fact, as an environmentalist I do think global warming is a problem and has been one for quite a while. I find it interesting that you r question implies that because I am a believer, I must not believe in science or scientific phenomenae. I was not trying to prejudge you but merely trying to find out what, to you, constitutes a fact. If a certain type of cloud is seen by a number of people, would that be enough validation for you to admit as a fact that that type of cloud was observed in a particular place at a particular time? Or would there have had to be photos of the cloud, or expert meteorologists there to identify it before you considered it a fact? Or is the deciding factor the number of people who saw it?

Before I can cite a "fact" about religion, I must know what your definition of "fact" is. If I don't know that, you could simply say that what I show is not a fact-and I wouldn't know what criteria you have for calling something factual.

[guidod]

49. Nor am I trying to be combative...

If I came across that way you have my full appology. On the contrary I am very confortable with your religious beliefs and I honestly hope those beliefs brings you, your family and friends together in love and happiness. I hope ALL religions or body of believers find love and togetherness as they worship.

I do not have religious beliefs and I hope you recognize that. My beliefs are using my heart to find love and seek happiness for those around me. And use my heart to help the misfortunate.

A scientific fact, to me, and I'll give you just one, is the way scientist worked together to cure polio. Through science they found a cure for a disease that killed thousands. That to me is a fact.

This discussion between us is very interesting and I'm anxious to hear your fact on religion.

If I don't hear from you before Christmas I will understand. Have a nice holiday with your family and friends.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

52. Thank you

Just wanted you to know that a person can have a spiritual life and yet also be able to appreciate science-as my belief is that everything is God, scientists are finding out more about God with every discovery they make.

My spirituality is based upon personal experience. That was why I wanted to know your definition of fact. I take it from what you have said that you would not take the work of just one scientist to prove a fact, but rather what groups of scientists do, either together or to verify others' work. I have had experiences involving a small group of individuals where unseen beings have suddenly been seen, and where temperature/energy shifts have happened. I doubt if you would agree that the phenomenae we witnessed were a "fact" because of the nature of the phenomenae was more like that of observing a cloud-it was there but I could not necessarily repeat the situation to bring the phenomenae up again (in the particular case I'm thinking about, the ceremony used changed the energy so that the phenomenae would not likely return). Is this correct? Some people of a scientific bent accept the possibility of the paranormal,but others don't for the reasons I specified. If you are among the latter and not the former, I could go into more detail about what happened.

How about this? A woman was diagnosed with a brain tumor. She checked with several physicians, had tests and scans which showed the tumor in her head. The night before she was to go in for brain surgery, she contacted a friend of mine who is a faith healer. After the session with the healer, she went to the hospital for the surgery. She asked for another scan, and they did it. The tumor was gone. I cannot give names of the individuals because this is a public board and I haven't obtained their permission. But I have met them and heard their story.

This, too, might not meet your criteria. But these are two examples of facts that I present to you, not to defend a particular dogma, but rather to show that there is more to the universe than either religion or science knows at this time.

Salaam.

[guidod]

53. I believe you when

you say there is more to the universe than either religion or science knows. I wish we could be around when that happens, we might both be surprised. When it comes to this planet I'm VERY spiritual. I believe that all things are connected, plants, animals, oxygen, water, bugs and humans. I don't believe in burials in cemetaries. I don't want to be put into a coffin and incased in concrete, nothing grows in concrete. I want my body to go back in the ground and hopefully it will help something else grow. I'm sorry if I'm getting away from our discussion, I just felt that I had to explain the type of spirituality that I feel. I don't believe in a spiritual being.

I guess fact to me is something that can be proven over and over again without falter. Words that are writen in a bible or any other piece of religious literary work are, to me, a myth or fictitious imaginary writing. However I don't ever think that these writings or beliefs shouldn't exist. If people find strenghth, happiness, at one with or a feeling of euphoria in the teachings of their religion then more power to them. I would fight to my death to see that they keep there freedom to practice their faith. After reading the words you've posted I believe you would do the same for me.

Thanks

[BoneDaddy]

47. Not really

Why this need to have the two things be mutually exclusive? This is not reality. These two separate issues do not grow in vacuums, they co-exist, co-mingle and are interdependent upon one another. Science can be rational and closed as well. look at the conflict between Newtonian physics and the physics of Einstein. Einstein's revelations shocked the foundations of Newtonian science, moving us from a "mechanical" view of the world and into a evolutionary, intuitive, less "rational" view of the universe. Einstein's points are more in tune with mystical revelations from various cultures than they were with Newton's.

I get a kick from people who are anti-religion, yet they show such a lack of self-awareness that they don't realize that they often become irrational about their rationality/science/logic and push it on everyone as if they were a religious zealot. They become so sure about reality and life, they display the same irrational "clarity" of the fanatical religious.

To be truly rational, we must accept that we cannot know everything and the realm of mystery, abstraction, spirituality is a evolving process in and of itself. Rational does not mean close-minded.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

54. To be truly rational, we must accept that we cannot know everything

Uhmmm, that's a given.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

27. Yes I do see a vast difference between science and religion

Science is based on observable fact, testing, and rigorous structure. Religion is based in mythology and irrational belief and you are correct, the two can never be compatible. However, science is always fact but it is not always correct, as sometimes our initial facts turn out to not be facts, but then again, that is how we learn.

However, you statement points out what is wrong with all religious belief, as Mr. Harris points out, the basic notion that religion is somehow correct is what gives legitimacy to fundamentalism as it exist today.

5. Why is it that you think religious moderates bear some responsibility for the religious conflict
in our world? It would seem that religious moderates are precisely the people who abhor
violence in the name of faith.

Yes, but their indulgence of religious faith perpetuates an attachment to religious texts
and to religious identities that, in turn, perpetuate human conflict. Religious moderates may
ignore or overlook the more barbaric passages in their religious books, but by venerating the
books in general, they leave us powerless to really oppose the belief systems of fundamentalists.
And because moderates tend to ignore the most lunatic parts of scripture, they lose touch with
how dangerous these books are when taken literally. In fact, they have trouble believing that
anyone does still take these books literally, and so they tend not to recognize the role that faith
plays in inspiring human violence. Religious moderates are blinded by their own moderation.
When college-educated jihadists stare into a video camera and declare that “we love death more
than the infidels love life,” and then blow themselves up along with dozens of innocent
bystanders, religious moderates rack their brains wondering what motivated these killers to do
what they did. The respect that moderates accord to religious faith has blinded them to the fact
that the atrocities of September 11th were a religious exercise. Religious moderates seem
incapable of realizing that our problem is not terrorism, but Islam.


http://www.samharris.org/press/Q&A-with-Sam-Harris.pdf

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. I don't wonder what made these bombers do what they do

Suicide bombers are motivated by hopelessness and a concept of reality (notice I say concept, not actual reality)that promises relief only in death. The way to change things is to change the circumstances that lead to hopelessness. That Mr. Harris equates the problem solely with Islam is being, I feel, a bit shortsighted-there have been many Christians who have gone to their deaths on the basis of a similar concept of reality where the only relief is in the afterlife.

For Mr. Harris to say 9/11 was a religious exercise and therefore condemn all aspects of Islam is like taking the actions of Jim Jones or David Koresh and saying that all Christianity is like these leaders and therefore the entire faith should be condemned.


Islam as I understand it basically says not to bother others but to treat them kindly-or at least justly. Sufi masters have often said not to worry about politics but worry about your own soul--(as you can see, I am far from mastery!).

[radio4progressives]

23. I agree... What did you think of his Zero Tolerance idea?

ok, he didn't use the term "zero tolerance" - but he did seem to advocate that religious fundamentalism is something that should NOT be tolerated at least in terms of the public fora - education, politics, government, is how i sort of heard it.

His argument was well reasoned, rational and very appealing to my sensibilities!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

25. It is what I have always thought

The very notion that I should tolerate religion, especially in light of its long history of pain and suffering it has visited on humanity, because it is about god, is offensive to my basic sensibilities. To not point out its flaws, which is pretty much all of it, is morally lazy and reprehensible.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. Pointing out flaws is well and good

but how far does one take intolerance? Does that mean that all believers in the various faiths are forbidden their ceremonies? Are they imprisoned or put into mental institutions as the Soviets often did with religious people? Is it demanded they change their thinking?

Surely you see that this intolerance would be as onerous as the intolerance of fundamentalism that you decry.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

34. And those are good questions

Which I am not sure what the correct answer to them is, but would think that force would not be my first choice. I think more importantly a dialog needs to begin, but that will never happen as long as people are punished, socially, politically, etc, by raising the questions.

[radio4progressives]

38. For Me, What Jefferson & Madison Intended is what should honored

That is to maintain a Separation of Church and State.

That means worship is a freedom, but it is personal. There are places of worship such as churches and the privacy of ones home.

but i don't want it in the schools, in the halls of my government, i don't God mentioned in the pledge to the flag etc.

The bottom line, is i don't want religion IMPOSED on me. in any form. I would not advocate religious intolerance to the extent to illegalize worship, to me that is absurd and is not what our constituion intended.

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution and the Republic for which IT represents.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

40. I thought I was pretty clear in stating that force is not the

solution to this problem, in fact, as you state, historical evidence indicates it would only worsen the situation. However, I by the same token do not have to tolerate religious fanaticism when it is interjected into the public realm.

[radio4progressives]

50. Exactly how i see it. it's a deeply personal experience -

and should be privately practiced in places of worship - church, home, religious retreats etc..

but keep it out the public schools, keep it out of the halls of legislation, courts and the white house.

[napi21]

37. I saw it. Good show! It's sad but he's right.

I loved the part when he talked about where the most murders, divorces, abortions, etc happen. In the RED STATES!

I found most people here in the South are very hypocritical. They tell you you have to do certain things, but none of it applies to them. Of course, they all go to church every Wed, Sat and Sun!!!!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

39. Well it has always been a fact

that the more religiosity that is involved, the more violence that is involved. But somehow people are completly blind to that fact even though history paints a very clear picture of it.

[radio4progressives]

51. at least 2000 years of wars related to religiosity... n/t

[BoneDaddy]

45. I tend to believe in a balance.

I think that we muct balance the right and left hemispheres of the brain just as we must balance reason and abstraction (or spiritual mysticism). There is danger at both extremes or one without the other.