Do you support the Death Penalty?

[BlueAwards]

Poll question: Do you support the Death Penalty?

Since the Death Penalty is a popular topic today, I thought I would ask the most basic question!

[sojourner]

1. the current "debate" has been good for me...

i'd become comfortable with the idea that the dp was flawed but as good as we can get.

but now, since it is so unevenly applied and since there is no guarantee of actual guilt vs actual innocence in those executed, i have come solidly back to where i began long years ago. anti dp under all circumstances.

doesn't mean i want murderers walking around free either.

[HeilChimp]

12. End the racist death penalty!!

Free Mumia and Tookie!! They are victims of the system. The sad thing is that if Mumia and Tookie were white men charged with the same crimes, they'd be walking free today.

No Justice, No Peace!

[renie408]

13. "Free" seems a little excessive to me

"Free" Tookie? I mean, he did some pretty atrocious things, right? I don't think he needs to die for them, but neither should he be freed. Isn't there something in between 'free' and 'dead'?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GatoLover]

41. End making heroes out of murderers

"Free Mumia and Tookie!! They are victims of the system. The sad thing is that if Mumia and Tookie were white men charged with the same crimes, they'd be walking free today.

No Justice, No Peace!"

Wow, if these guys are victims of the system, who exactly victimized the dead people these fellows left in their wake? I just don't see how either glorifying these guys or portraying them as victims helps advance the capital punishment debate.

[TankLV]

43. Never "free" them either - make them do HARD TIME, too.

No "libraries"
No "exercise rooms"
No TV
Never allow these criminals just sit on their asses all day long.

Nothing but hard work for the rest of their lives.

[LittleClarkie]

49. The guy who died today at 6:25 pm was a white guy

Here is a good site for those who care about those executed under the Death Penalty, regardless of skin color:

http://www.ncadp.org/execution_alerts.html

[Double T]

2. NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL

support the death penalty.

[MercutioATC]

3. I'm an undecided.

I don't in general, but there are crimes (like certain offenses against children) that I think deserve torture (then death).

...so I'm kinda conflicted on the issue.

[prolesunited]

19. Oooh, torture AND death

Sounds like a great reality series. And, exactly what would torture accomplish?

[MercutioATC]

29. I didn't say it made sense...

...it'd just make me feel better.

People who hurt children are my pet peeve and I'm not rational about the issue.

[gizmo1979]

4. I've actually had dreams

where I'm wrongfully accused of murder and sentenced to death.So until they can prove they don't make mistakes I"m anti death penalty.I do believe there are people who are just bad and there is no saving them,but until they can weed those people out no to death.

[BlueAwards]

7. Did you die in your dream?

I heard that can't happen :shrug:

[gizmo1979]

8. Nope always woke

up before I died.I was fairly young when I had this dream 13-14 years old.So it was really weird.It's my only belief based on a dream,I promise.

[quaoar]

5. The ironic thing about the death penalty

is that if you are poor and have been wrongly convicted of murder, you have a much better chance of being exonerated if you are sentenced to death. Death row inmates get substantial legal help for appeals but nobody much cares about helping out inmates serving life terms who say they are innocent.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. I was thinking about that just recently

I recently got interested in the case of the West Memphis 3. On May 5, 1993 in West Memphis, Arkansas three little eight-year-old boys were savagely murdered with their bodies found the following day hog-tied, naked and left face down in a creek. A month later the police arrested and charged three teenagers from very poor trailer park families with the crime--claiming that the three teenagers were devil worshipers and had sacrificed these children to satan. The police immediately claimed to have absolute 100% proof that these teenager were guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. In fact there was no proof whatsoever beyond the coerced confession of a terrified 17-year-old retarded boy who was told that he could go home if he just told them what they wanted to hear. Prior to his "confession", the boy had been given a polygraph test which he had passed when he claimed he didn't now anything about the murders. The police lied to him and told him that he had failed the polygraph. All other evidence ranged between flimsy and preposterously inconclusive to downright absurd. It was also claimed by the police and prosecution in the trial that the children had been raped. The autopsy and forensic report from the prosecutions own witnesses concluded otherwise.

The 17-year-old and sixteen year-old have now been serving a sentence of life without parole for the past 12 years. While the 18-year-old, Damien Echols has been on death row.

I recently saws an interview with prosecutor of that case (who is now a judge) and he made the one statement I agreed with completely: If Damien Echols had not been sentenced to death -- this case would have been long forgotten and none of us would be here talking about it right now.

[warrens]

6. There are some cases so brutal and disgusting

That revenge seems appropriate. This case doesn't meet that standard, IMO.

[Thorandmjolnir]

24. Am I to understand you correctly

that part of the purpose of the justice system is revenge?

If so, who's revenge? The victim's, the Prosecutor, the Politician, who?

[Llewlladdwr]

34. The victims' survivors, of course.

As a human being I have the right to recompense for wrongs perpetrated against me. The only possible compensation one can make for taking the life of one of my loved ones is to surrender their own.

People like to pretend that the death penalty is barbaric. Nothing can be further from the truth. The death penalty is the deal we make with society to prevent the waging of blood feuds. In return for me refraining from seeking revenge on my own against those who have wronged me society agrees to take revenge for me after some legal niceties.

That's the only neccesary rationale for the death penalty. It serves the purpose of actually lessening bloodshed in the long run.

[TankLV]

45. That has never been proven - in fact it can be argued that life terms

are more of a deterrent.

That a death is a deterrent can not be supported.

There is NO evidence that is lessens bloodshed at all.

[TankLV]

44. But you DO agree, that a MAJOR part of the justice system SHOULD be

PUNISHMENT, don't you?

I believe that the order of concern should be:

1) IMPRISONMENT - take them away from society to protect the rest of society.
2) PUNISHMENT for their crime(s).

And LAST, only if the other two have been fulfilled, Rehabilitation, if it is possible. Rehabilitation is not at all even possible with some criminals.

[Crunchy Frog]

9. No I do not.

I might be willing to make an exception for high ranking government officials convicted of high treason.

[renie408]

10. I waffle on this

Intellectually, I do not believe in the death penalty.

When I hear about some sick freak raping and killing a child, I think he needs to die.

[Strawman]

48. I'm with you

One problem with getting that kind of "justice" through the death penalty is that you risk killing an innocent person. Getting the death penalty seems as much a result of ones race and financial resources as it does the extent of one's offenses. At the point where one innocent person is executed, the death penatly clearly becomes an unjust solution. Just because some people are relatives of victims who want revenge (and understandably so), they can't justify an innocent person potentially dying to get that satisfaction.

Another is that I think it debases society and reinforces the idea that you solve problems by killing. I have a problem with the state sanction of killing. It's so creepy when they announce how the inmate died after one of those things. It just feels really wrong and weird in my gut.

But at the same time, with some of these hideous open and shut, grisly murder cases, especially the ones involving helpless children, I'd have no real problem seeing the murderer torn limb from limb by an angry mob. I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep. And I don't give a goddamn what the Bible or any religion has to say about that either.

So you could say I waffle on this too. I'm definitely conflicted here, but I will always oppose the death penalty as policy.

[jarab]

11. I do not. n/t

...O...

[Nutmegger]

14. Nope

It is horrible public policy. My faith tells me that it's wrong; I'm not going to let a Repuke tell me what to think!

[radio4progressives]

15. No! under no circumstances! n/t

[eve_was_framed]

16. I sure don't! The death penalty is dis proportionally meted out to blacks

and one innocent person executed is too many for me. We are so far from enlightenment it's painful.

[newyawker99]

27. Hi eve_was_framed!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[eve_was_framed]

30. Thank you! Good to be here

:-)

[last_texas_dem]

20. No

I have several reasons for opposing both the death penalty and the way it is currently applied in America, though I've already discussed them on another thread so won't go into them.

Besides, the only solid "reason" I've seen for supporting the death penalty is basically to get revenge. I just don't see the positive side in supporting my government taking an action that the strongest basis for is revenge.

[Lexingtonian]

21. I think

there's no true reason to keep it for common criminality. I believe the psychological or psychiatric disorders involved, the sociopathies, are in decline, and the dp should decline faster as an institution than they do.

But there are offenses that are so extreme that they don't register emotionally, they just numb and pain us beyond toleration in our time and place. I could not vote against capital punishment for Adolf Eichmann. I don't know whether I could vote for it.

I guess the way I'd look at it is as abolition of capital punishment by the states and almost-abolition by the federal government. Abolition with an But Under Truly Utterly Extraordinary Circumstances clause. I think the Old Testament says that one exection every seventy years is the highest number permissible...maybe that is a very wise way of looking at the matter.

[ProudDad]

22. Do unto others as you would have done unto you

The death penalty is the ultimate barbarity. It is not a deterrent, corrodes the soul of the societies that practice it INCLUDING THE VICTIM'S FAMILY members. Being poor or a person of color with a white victim is the surest indicator of someone who will get the death penalty -- will be murdered by the state. The only sure relationship between crime and the death penalty is that after a state killing, violent crime usually increases...

Those who carry it out, in cold blood, are worse than any of the "murderers" they murder. The state coldly, callously murders their victim. They don't have the excuse of anger or temporary instanity to explain their act.

Here's how the state murders in your name...it's eerily similar to the way a spider kills its victim:

"After the prisoner has been restrained, two intravenous (IV) tubes are inserted by the execution team, one tube in each arm. The intravenous tubes are threaded through an opening in the wall that leads to the anteroom, where the executioner is located. Once the IV tubes are inserted, a saline solution begins flowing into them.

"When the IV tubes are in place, a curtain may be drawn back from the window or one-way mirror to allow witnesses to view the execution. At this time, the inmate is given a chance to make a final statement, either written or verbal. This statement is recorded and later released to the media. The prisoner's head is left unrestrained -- in states that use regular windows, this enables the inmate to turn and look at the witnesses. In states that use one-way mirrors, the witnesses are shielded from view. In the next section, we'll talk about how the drugs are delivered to induce death.

"The drugs are administered, in this order:

* Anesthetic - Sodium thiopental, which has the trademark name Pentothal, puts the inmate into a deep sleep. This drug is a barbiturate that induces general anesthesia when administered intravenously. It can reach effective clinical concentrations in the brain within 30 seconds, according to an Amnesty International report. For surgical operations, patients are given a dose of 100 to 150 milligrams over a period of 10 to 15 seconds. For executions, as many as 5 grams (5,000 mg) of Pentothal may be administered. This in itself is a lethal dose. It's believed by some that after this anesthetic is delivered, the inmate doesn't feel anything.

* Saline solution flushes the intravenous line.

* Paralyzing agent - Pancuronium bromide, also known as Pavulon, is a muscle relaxant that is given in a dose that stops breathing by paralyzing the diaphragm and lungs. Conventionally, this drug takes effect in one to three minutes after being injected. In many states, this drug is given in doses of up to 100 milligrams, a much higher dose than is used in surgical operations -- usually 40 to 100 micrograms per one kilogram of body weight. Other chemicals that can be used as a paralyzing agent include tubocurarine chloride and succinylcholine chloride.

* Saline solution flushes the intravenous line.

* Toxic agent (not used by all states) - Potassium chloride is given at a lethal dose in order to interrupt the electrical signaling essential to heart functions. This induces cardiac arrest.

Within a minute or two after the last drug is administered, a physician or medical technician declares the inmate dead. The amount of time between when the prisoner leaves the holding cell and when he or she is declared dead may be just 30 minutes."

http://people.howstuffworks.com/lethal-injection4.htm

[LynneSin]

23. By supporting the death penalty we become no better than the murderers

The murderers are on death row because they killed someone in a premeditated manner. How can we be any better when we support the same exact thing?

Amnesty International shows that the death penalty is a form of punishment found mainly in rogue 3rd world nations - some of them of which our country is at war with. And yet in that same list is us - the United States. You don't find European or other industrialized nations because those countries find the practice barbaric.

I've said this so many times during the whole Tookie ordeal: Gandhi said "Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". Well, the United States just became a little bit blinder last night.

[killbotfactory]

25. No. Our justice system is way too flawed

The number of people proven innocent on death row should show this.
The number of crooked cops in major cities should show this.

At the very least every death sentance that was issued without DNA evidence should be changed to life in prison.

[TankLV]

46. These are the prime reasons I'm against it, too.

[newyawker99]

26. NO TO THE DEATH PENALTY! NO EXCEPTIONS! n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

28. For corporate, government, and military crimes ONLY.

Only crimes that affect the public as a whole, like Enron, yellowcake memo forging, etc.

Just to anticipate, the whole argument that we should do executions for the emotional satisfaction of victims' families just makes me want to :puke:

[BlueAwards]

31. I think you will have a hard time justifying that...

a murderer and rapist of a child should not get the death penalty, but Ken Lay should.

JMHO - I'm against it in all cases.

[Jed Dilligan]

32. I'll justify it as much as you want.

The good of the many outweigh the needs of the few. A couple of family members beg for "justice"? To me, that's not worth making the whole system brutal.

If a crime affects less than a million people it's not worth taking a life for. That's how I see it. If it does affect a million people...

Rapists and murderers are mostly irrational and always will be. Executives and officials are mostly rational and always will be. The laws against office crimes of various sorts are not an effective deterrent to rational people. You make your play for the big score, and if you get caught, what is it? Comfortable early retirement, basically.

On the other hand, not a single future murderer will think twice because Tookie or anyone else has been executed.

If every future Republican wanker who wants to rape the public trust had to watch Ken Lay dancing at the end of a rope on national TV, we might get one less wanker in the future. To me, that's worth Ken Lay's life.

[BlueAwards]

37. So you think murdering some via the DP is ok even if....

they haven't killed anyone? That's the most ridiculous thing I have read on this board.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. Yes, absolutely.

The total moral decay of our leadership stems from a total lack of real personal risk. No DP for regular people; a politician, CEO, or high-ranking military officer should constantly fear execution if they misuse their office. There is no way you will be able to convince me otherwise.

[NaturalHigh]

33. Count me as undecided.

As I've said in other threads, I'm very ambivalent about capital punishment. The "Tookie" case, however, is certainly not the poster child for abolition. He murdered (at least) four people and started a terrorist organization called the Crips. It's hard to have sympathy for a monster who took such obvious pleasure in killing.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. IN a hundred years people will look at DP supporters as savages

No better than the torturers of the 13th century.

It is barbaric, period.

I do not argue with death penalty supporters any more than I would argue with medieval theologian who provided me with complex rationales for the butchery of the Inquisition. These rationales only work within the twisted system of thought that allows the Inquisition in the first place. The same is true of death penalty supporters. I pay them no mind, not least because they are heading toward rapid extinction. It's only a shame that they are able to practice their outright murders in the meantime.

[ismnotwasm]

36. No

Not in any circumstances.
I'm a bit of a true crime buff, so I know just how bad those circumstances can be. I am not naive.
State santioned murder is wrong.

[Booster]

38. I'm mixed on the death penalty. I don't really see where it deters

crime, I would not want to inject a person on death row so I can't really expect someone to do it for me, but for people like the guy who abducted little Samantha Runion in CA from her apt, tortured her for hours, sexually assaulted her, murdered her and then posed her body in a sexual manner, for him not only do I support the death penalty, but I think I could even inject him. Some people should just die for what they have done.

[Zynx]

40. Totally opposed. All cases.

[TankLV]

42. Nope - never.

I'd rather a million guilty persons go free than kill ONE innocent person.

That's it in a nutshell.

You can't shove the toothpaste back into the tube if a mistake is made.

How much is a human life worth?

[CarolNYC]

47. This one was easy

I voted no...

[orleans]

50. something i can't come to terms with in my head is this:

i've always been against the death penalty but i was so glad when we killed john gacy.

hence, the cognisant dissonance

[Neil Lisst]

51. OPPOSED to the death penalty. We do this for us, not them.

It's our humanity at issue, not the criminal's.

[ProudBlue08]

52. No- Against it, all causes

[guidod]

53. NO!

They're talking bout 3 more next year here in California.

[election_2004]

54. I'm not crazy about it....

But I don't see how abolishing the death penalty alone will reduce crime without simultaneously implementing quality prison reform and proper rehabilitation.