The Election was Stolen- How to put sense into these conspiracy theorists?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

Hey guys I need advice. Some of my friends who are into conspiracy theories believe that the Election in 2000 and 2004 was rigged.

I know, I know someone of my friends are a bit on the fringe, but they are still my friends, so I want them to see the light.

When I say that we just need to try harder in the upcoming elections, my friends always say, "who cares? the election is rigged anyway." Uhhhh hello, we're definitly going to lose if we don't campaign at all.

Then I mention about the victories in the gubernatorial races in 2005...They hotly retort, "It's a scam by the republicans. They want to keep us off our guard so they can steal the election in 2006." I'm always like WTF. Because before the elections in 2005 they told me that the election was rigged and Kaine and Corzine was going to lose. Now they tell me that the Republicans didn't rig the election on purpose. Sounds hypocritical to me.

Anyway I need some advice to put some sense into my friends. They always have a bit of a mad look in their eyes when they talk about the election being stolen. It makes me shudder, when they have that look it reminds me of religious fanatics.

My friends, recently have been hanging out with a group of people who are hard core conspiracy theorist and believe that the the voting machines were rigged. They talk about a site called blackboxvoting.org or something like that. Yeah another one of those conspiracy sites of how the election was stolen. Anyway my friends have been trying to convince me and my other skeptical friends that the Republicans are stealing elections across the United States.

My conspiracy theorist friends are having a bad impact on my other friends. My other friends are starting to feel lest motivated to vote. They are feeling less motivated to participate in the electoral process. I'm afraid they my conspiracy theorist friends are having a bad influence.

How can I stop them? They are disenfranchising people. We need to put some sense into them, before they cause reparable harm. Inadvertently they are causing voter suppression by oppressing voter turnout.

Any advice to put some sense into them? I tried debating, arguing, and talking with them, but they refuse to listen to reason, especially when they have the fanatical look in their eyes.

HELP!!!

[lostnfound]

1. I'd recommend taking a vote on it to settle the matter once & for all

Be sure to bribe the programmer first. Just put it a little invisible window that says 'add to this' and 'subtract to this'.

Or you could ensure that you have remote access like SOS Blackwell did.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

2. huh?

Are you making fun of my conspiracy friends by being sarcastic? Serious advice please.

[papau]

3. LOL - I needed a smile before going to bed. Buy your friends a gift for

trying to open your eyes, and give them a hug.

You seem to have some folk beyond those of us at DU that care about you.

And I would not worry about "bad impact ...starting to feel lest motivated to vote" problems - I don't see that happening - although I do hear that there has been some discussion - outside of DU - of how to take back this country from the rich in ways that do not include voting.

:-)

:toast:

:-)

[Gildor Inglorion]

5. From your mouth to God's ears...

"how to take back this country from the rich in ways that do not include voting" --- Oh, please, oh, please! "If this be rebellion, then let us make the most of it." This month's "Vanity Fair" magazine has a fabulous article by Christopher Hitchens titled "Let Them Eat Pork Rinds," that should be required reading for every progressive person in this country. It includes numerous "tumbril statments" including the famous "working very well for them" quote from Barbara Bush. I may just live long enough to participate in the revolution yet!
:bounce:

[Arkana]

4. *does best Archie Bunker*

Huh?

[Wilms]

6. Wow. They reminds me of a few of my friends.

I've got some pals who think that the election system is secure and that Bush really won...twice!

They see the Dems swinging to the right trying to appeal to the imagined "swing voters". So they dont see a point in voting because either the Repub wins, or a Repub-lite Dem wins.

What if I show them this?

http://www.cumberlink.com/articles/2005/11/11/news/news02.txt

Don't know if it was malice, or ignorance, but the recount saved the day...in this election.

[KerryOn]

10. Thanks for the link....

I will add it to my voting fraud collection.

{A snip from the article you posted}
However, a programming error by the county’s ES&S voting machines awarded all votes by Democrats casting a straight-ticket ballot to Keating. The problem involved a software coding error in which Keating’s political affiliation was mislabeled as Democrat.

Straight-ticket Republican votes were not awarded to either candidate. So the hand recount subtracted straight-ticket Democrat votes from Keating’s total and added straight-ticket Republican votes. Meanwhile, Rhoades gained straight-ticket Democrat votes.

Now I wounder how that happened? They are blaming it on some sort of programing error. Humm....

[Wilms]

11. That ain't voting fraud.

It's election fraud.

"Programming" need be no more than innaccurate "ballot definition". No hacking required for this one.

[snowbear]

7. Hey PTBL...

Good to see you back again!

And I thought you were mad at us! :hug:

[ProudToBeLiberal]

12. oh I would never leave DU

Who can stay mad at wonderful people like Duers? :) :hug:

[pretzel4gore]

8. the BIG conspiracy theory is that bush is president....

you're saying it's de-moralising to proceed from the base that the bush criminals 'steal' elections and this de-moralization causes otherwise proactive leftists to give up, or to cause others to give up by their example? While it's a oft stated saying that 'politics and politicians are crooked' it really isn't true; a good poltician isn't any more crooked then you or i are (we run red lights, we fudge our taxes, we break stuff and take it back to store to claim it was damaged, we lie sometimes, sometimes for no reason etc)...indeed, the more one knows of life, the more one realizes that governments actually work pretty good, considering it only take one faceless drone to screw it up, and it's the rightwingers who constantly act as if it's truism that elected governments are corrupt, while ignoring the rampant corruption in biz)) ...the fact is, the bush crims are so awful that there's no reference point to xcompare them, and they designed their corruption from the getgo, cuz they hate the idea of elected representative democracy actually working! they got us into vietnam because, at least in part, communism was a viable threat to them and their fellow upper class twits (they made lotsa money outta the war as side benefit) iraq, otoh, was never really an issue: the busheviks are a criminal org. period. they used iraq to fill newspapers and enrich/empower their fellow upper class twits, at no time did they think of the national interest, if the iraq thing degenerates into chaos that eventually cost the usa trillions, the gopig gives not a shit....and never did...

[KerryOn]

9. Huh... Where do I start?

Thank your friends for me for trying to set you straight. How about this handy little guide I made for starters:



The Abramoff/Delay scandal, Ohio's coingate and voting fraud is all related in my opinion. At first I didn't believe the conspiracy theories either, but after you study it for a while it makes perfect since. Tom Noe (Ohio's coingate) and his wife stole the election in Lucas County Ohio. The scandal goes back to Senator George Voinovich and the Ohio Turn Pike Commission that had ties to the mob and organized crime. The Ohio Turn Pike Commission was their meeting place. Tom Noe and his wife were on the Lucas County Board of Elections. Blackwell fired the entire Lucas County Board of Elections after the 2004 presidential election. I attended the hearings here in Columbus that Rep Conyers had and witnessed the stories first hand. Noes wife was at the heart of the problems. A public official even accepted ten grand from Diebold.

Tom Delay, Abramoff and Bob Ney of Ohio toke over the house and the congress in 2000 by basically buying it.

It's a giant machine of organized crime and corruption designed to take over our country, and it worked. The more you read and research the easier it is to understand how the election could indeed have been stolen.

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/40/12987/printer

[BlueIris]

19. Nice art. That diagram is a thing of beauty.

Hee.

[savemefromdumbya]

13. depends if you consider rigging ballots conspiracies?

crimes

[pauldp]

14. We should always vote no matter what. However...

If you think the Republicans, would work hard to create a system of voting machines with proprietary, secret source code and no paper trail that would allow them to cheat with impunity, and then not use it because that wouldn't be fair - I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[snowbear]

15. Proud2BeLiberal... here's what you tell them:

(( ))

[seabeyond]

16. i odnt know they didnt sifer off votes in 2005. i dont know that

some of the people didnt just have a large enough victory that theft didnt win out. look at virginia and they had some of the same shit happening. and i have ever been considered out there, nor a conspiracy theorist. i think 2000, some races in 2002 and 2004 were stolen

[pauldp]

17. Tell them to get off their asses and support HR 550

Rush Holt's bill to implement paper trails for e-voting machines.

Do a little research yourself. Read the GAO report on e-voting

http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-05-956

Tell them to urge the media to cover this report.

Stop using tired Republican talking points like "wild eyed conspiracy theorists" Tom Delay wore that one out a long time ago.
Funny how he's under indictment for conspiracy isn't it?

[Hippo_Tron]

18. Uh 2000 WAS STOLEN, Shrub was appointed by the SCOTUS

2004 is questionable, there is no solid proof one way or the other.

[BeFree]

20. K & R !

You wrote, and I quote:

"They talk about a site called blackboxvoting.org or something like that."

So, you've never read Black Box Voting.com? Even though your friends want you to? And then you post it here for all to see? You are a gas, man. Be glad you have friends who care for you and want you to become educated, get down on your knees and thank heaven for such friends.

[LunaC]

21. You’re kidding, right?

I looked to see if there was a link to The Onion but didn’t see one so in the off-chance you’re being serious, here’s a link in support of your friends’ position to help you see the light:

GAO Report Finds Flaws in Electronic Voting
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/102105Q.shtml

[dfgrbac]

22. I am sorry, but we have now had two stolen elections!

If you think that the 2004 election was fairly processed, I have a bridge sale in which you might be interested.

You need to read, sincerely read, some sites like the Greg Palast web site.