BOMBSHELL: Kerry now believes the election was stolen.

[ClassWarrior]

Mark Crispin Miller, speaking on Democracy Now! this morning, said he had a conversation with John Kerry last Friday in which Kerry admitted he now unequivocally believes the Presidency was stolen from him in 2004.

If true, this is major.

NGU.

[lse7581011]

1. Wonder What Finally Convinced Him!? n/t

[thinkingwoman]

4. Maybe the GAO report?

The one nobody in the MSM will report on. :eyes:

[CornField]

13. I did an article on that report yesterday

Took the info from the report and added in information local to Iowa (how we have a bill calling for verifiable paper trails stonewalled in our House of Reps) and sent it off to two editors. Keeping my fingers crossed.

[thinkingwoman]

28. Great!!

Hope the editors have a clue (and some balls). Good luck!

[GOPisEvil]

2. Talk about your days late and your dollars short.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. Sigh

This might have been a little more timely a year ago, huh? Instead of throwing in the towel so soon?

Well, he IS a man who looks at every side of the issue, carefully and slowly.

[LaurenG]

11. But how sad!

I cried and then wrote and begged him to check those numbers. Ahhh what happened?

[Arugula Latte]

72. He had PLENTY of warning that they'd try to do this.

He told us he'd stand up for us and our votes. He lied.

[JuniorPlankton]

5. Yawn...

Even if it is true (Kerry believing in it), it is too late now. Plus, nobody will take him seriously (sore loser and all that)

What does it change?

:kick:

[zann725]

44. Never say "never." It's never too late. The timing is excellent.

The Dem's shut down the Senate "live" on CSpan this week.

Shrub's popularity is down to low 30's, and his cabinet it starting to be indicted. Jimmy Carter admitted at American U about a month ago that Gore definitely won 2000. Gradually things are lining up, that JK on his own could NOT have done.

I realize NOW that Kerry would never have "won" that argument of Election Fraud last year. But now...quite possibly. And now, with the country and government in shambles, people want TRUE leadership.

[YvonneCa]

114. Totally agree, maybe...

...Kerry is having this "public" disagreement on purpose, to draw attention to vote reform and use the 2004 Election as an example of the problem. It's clear he never gets any media coverage when he speaks seriously to solutions for the problems we face (ie: the Georgetown University speech on the way forward in Iraq, which is on CSPAN and is EXCELLENT!). If it takes a silly difference of opinion scandal with MCM to draw attention to election reform, I say "Go for it, Senator!" I LOVE both Kerry and Mark Crispin Miller.:patriot:

[jbnow]

50. What it might change

is future elections. The sore loser tag would have been harsher back when it did matter, before bush was sworn in. That part wouldn't change now, Kerry can't become president. But if this gets enough of congress to PUSH for fair elections it makes all the difference in the world.

[Loonman]

6. With all due respect

Timing was never one of Kerry's strong suits.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. No, it wasn't

oddly, this makes me kind of like him more. I don't think he wouldn't have been the best pres in the world, but man, he takes his time. If we had taken our time a bit more in Iraq, well, we'd still be rattling the saber and that would be a good thing.

He is a rather fascinating person, actually.

[Loonman]

26. His statements after coming back from Vietnam

Always get me. That was an extremely brave thing to do at that time.

[jonnyblitz]

7. please

:rofl:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

8. Well . . .

he believed it wasn't stolen before he believed it was.

<huge, disgusted sigh>

THIS JUST IN: farmer decides to close doors of burning barn now that horses have all run off.

"Thanks for the sour persimmons, Brother!" /Daffy Duck off

:wtf: :banghead: :wtf: :banghead: :wtf: :banghead:

[mzteris]

9. what took him so damn long?

If he's that stupid, I'm not sure he's worthy of our support.

*I* knew the moment it happened.

sheesh

:shrug:

[0007]

65. So did 65% of the country. Now Kerry is gonna wet his pants? nt

[CornField]

10. the more I hear from Kerry

the less I like him.

Since he seemed so fond of rolling over at this point last year, perhaps he can do us all a favor and just STFU?

[clitzpah queen]

17. Kerry should redeem himself and NOT STFU but publish an op ed piece asap

in the NYT or Wash Po calling attention to the GAO report. He OWES us that. Now is the time to organize against touch screen voting. Why are paper ballots not possible in this country? A friend of mine in Scotland tells me it works really well over there (I realize the discrepancy in population size) --

[ClassWarrior]

23. That's what Miller suggested.

NGU.

[CornField]

25. He can do whatever he likes to ease his own conscience

The fact remains that he cannot be redeemed -- he was a traitor to the very people who worked tirelessly on his behalf.

[flpoljunkie]

42. Particularly since there has been NO mention of the GAO report in M$M!

That the GAO report has been ignored by the M$M is despicable. Too bad Jimmy Carter didn't bring it up when he was on Larry King this week. He did not even mention the recommendations of the Federal Election Reform Commission he co-chaired with James Baker--altho he did point our that he and Rosalyn would be soon be overseeing their 61st election outside of this country.

[ClassWarrior]

24. Okay, you'd rather remain in ignorance.

Understood.

NGU.

[CornField]

31. Ignorance?!

Some of us knew in November that the elections were stolen. Some of us urged Kerry not to throw in the towel. Some of us have been fighting for election reform since 2000.

Just because I have no interest in hearing John Kerry finally say what myself and others have been screaming at the top of our lungs for the past year, is in no way evidence that I'm the one living in ignorance.

What the election reform movement needs is credibility. That's something Kerry is fresh out of.

[ClassWarrior]

32. Yeah, comments like STFU prove how open-minded you are.

NGU.

[CornField]

36. Why don't cha go full tilt

and call me a freeper, ClassWarrior?

You just keep on singing:

The election was stolen, this I know,
because John Kerry finally told me so.
Little democrats, now gather here below.
It's a year late, but good as gold.

[ClassWarrior]

37. Wow, kill the messenger.

NGU.

[CornField]

41. Only when the messenger launches personal attacks

If you don't like the heat, you shouldn't start the fire.

[ClassWarrior]

43. How did I attack you?

NGU.

[Bridget Burke]

63. I didn't see any personal attacks.

Some here mention how they worked on the campaign & were disappointed by Kerry. Others just attack him for the fun of it.

Does anybody remember how the Democrats & the media failed to support Gore in 2000--when the Presidency was stolen in broad daylight?

[mtnsnake]

86. Well, didn't you imply she was ignorant in post #24?

If so, then that's a personal attack, I believe. All CornField did was criticize Kerry. Why not argue the point she was making about Kerry instead of getting personal with her? BTW, how can she be ignorant when she's correct? Kerry SHOULD STFU.

[ClassWarrior]

92. Argue WHAT point? That he/she doesn't like Kerry and doesn't want to...

...hear what Kerry has to say?? Not much substance there beyond that. And if he/she doesn't want th hear what Kerry has to say, he/she wants to remain in ignorance about Kerry's opinions. What's so hard about that to get??

NGU.

[KoKo]

38. And some of us sent our own money to help in Nader Recount of NH and

Ohio Recount by the Greens. Kerry was begged to keep on top of that. He
reluctantly came in after so many Ohioans and others across the country sent his brother the faxes and e-mails. We supported the law suits in Ohio...we hoped for one in New Mexico until Richardson put the stop to it...we hoped for more news from Florida vote tampering. We supported John Conyers we supported the hearings we sent roses to Barbara Boxer...we worked our own states to try to get the damned DRE machines out or to stop more purchasing of them...Now a GAO report has been out for two weeks and John Kerry says he believes it was STOLEN!!!! Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

I wonder if Edwards will come on board with that now since folks in his own state have been beating their brains out trying to get help on this issue. We got a bill through to require a VVPB but even our own Democratic Governor is trying to undermine us on this! What about that sham Elections Comission with Jim Baker (Bush vs. Gore) and former Pres. Carter trying to muckety up what those of us working for VVPB had already been focused on.....

Ayyyyyyyyy.....it makes my head explode....

[ClassWarrior]

40. Sad, isn't it? Miller said Edwards has been with us all along.

Which is what we suspected all along.

NGU.

[KoKo]

46. Really....he said that Edwards has been with us all along?

That's interesting. Couldn't have told it from here in NC but I can understand that he would worry it would look like sour grapes if he supported those of us trying to get that bill through NC Legislature.

He's an average citizen now...so there's not much he could do to help us with it.

[DemDogs]

116. Edwards disagreement reported from the beginning

It was widely reported (so probably AP?) that Edwards disagreed with concession and Kerry did it anyway. Also sure that Edwards finally got Kerry to join Ohio lawsuit.
I am certain that Edwards did not ignore any NC requests on fair elections; why would he? He didn't care about sour grapes then or now. Jim Black is your problem.
BTW, we sure better hope that average citizens can help us, because the electeds right now sure aren't doing it.

[mtnsnake]

45. This is how most of the Kerry flames get started

You attack said poster with an insult, implying he or she is ignorant, instead of attacking the post. Then, if said poster defends his or her insult by giving back one of their own, they invariably get blamed for the flame.

[ClassWarrior]

77. "Instead of attacking the post?" The post was, "He should STFU."

That sure sounds like the poster doesn't want to know, i.e., remain in ignorance.

NGU.

[CornField]

89. There you go again

"remain in ignorance"

For this to be a true statement, not only would I be classified as ignorant for not caring about Kerry's announcement today, but I would have to have been living in ignorance (hence, "remain")

You posted an announcement which was self-proclaimed as a "BOMBSHELL" I stated my opinion about said announcement - that the more Kerry talks, the less I like him. I went on to add that since he had so willing rolled over last year, he should STFU now.

Now, it wasn't that I didn't appreciate your announcement, it was that I viewed it as much less of the "BOMBSHELL" you made it out to be. Many of us, myself included, knew before the polls closed that the election was a fraud.

For future reference, here are a few items which I think would be deserving of the "BOMBSHELL" title:

1) American troops begin pull-out from Iraq

2) Bush impeachment begins

3) Verifiable Paper Trails now available in all states, in all precincts

I'm sorry if you disagree with my opinion, but I can assure you I'm not ignorant so there is no danger of me "remaining in ignorance."

Shall I sing again?

[ClassWarrior]

90. ROFLMAO. I never said you were "ignorant." Only you have used that word.

I said you want to remain in ignorance about Kerry's comments. You know, I can't help but question when someone:

a) fights so vigorously against hearing additional information that doesn't fit his or her preconceived notions, and
b) jumps to a conclusion about another person's position when he or she doesn't know squat about what that person thinks.

NGU.

[CornField]

93. Psst

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2222899&mesg_id=2222959

"remain in ignorance"

Hmmm...

So, I could say then that you just want to remain an ass about Kerry's comments. Or maybe, just want to remain a bastard about Kerry's comments? Oooo... remain an ignorant ass bastard. or would that be ignorant bastard ass? Hard to tell about these things... in any event...

Of course, that would only be a comment about Kerry's comments, and not about you.

:eyes:

[ClassWarrior]

97. I'm not answering that hostility.

NGU.

[CornField]

99. And You're Cute When You Get Angry

It still doesn't address the fact at hand now does it?

You did, in fact, personally attack me when I responded with my opinion about your announcement.

[ClassWarrior]

100. You post #93 - and I'M the one who's angry?

:rofl:

NGU.

[CornField]

103. Enjoy your day, ClassWarrior

I don't have discussions with folks who elect to edit their posts during the process.

[ClassWarrior]

104. You post #93, and you call this a discussion?

:rofl:

NGU.

[mtnsnake]

39. My sentiments exactly.

[zann725]

57. If he would've "stood up" last Nov., Shrubco crime family never would've

let him step into the WH. Come on, look at their history.

But now they're "weak" by indictments, scandals, and low poll numbers.

Any playwright (trained to know when Entrances and Exits work most effectively, which messages work best "when") would say JK's timing NOW is excellent.

Trust, and let's not bash...yet. A lot of "movement" in terms of Shrub's sliding "political capital" has been rapidly happening.

Now say it AGAIN, JK. Say it again...to we-the-people.

[ClassWarrior]

76. Agreed. He needs to say it out loud - not just to a private citizen...

...over a cocktail.

NGU.

[blm]

87. That's what Nixon, Reagan and Bush said about Kerry, especially after he

forced through investigations into IranContra, BCCI and the illegal wars in Central America.

Man, if you dislike the one man who investigated and exposed more government corruption than any other lawmaker in modern history, then you must not like many lawmakers. at all.

[CornField]

91. Wow...

Now I'm somehow against all lawmakers who fight corruption? Ironic seeing how I'm against Kerry because he refused to do so after the election.

Look, you're welcome to your personal adoration of Kerry. Have it... sponsor a love-fest if you so desire. The fact still remains that when he had an opportunity to stand up and fight for voter reform, he rolled over. (After gathering thousands upon thousands of dollars from his supporters for an attorney fund... after making several public promises that he would fight... after declaring even the smallest voter infraction would give him cause to fight.)

I don't downgrade what Kerry has accomplished in the past. Indeed, I applaud it and it was one of the key reasons I supported him for president. In the here and now, however, we need a unifying and credible voice so that every man, woman and child in the nation can sing out the need for true voter reform. My personal opinion is:

1) Kerry is not that voice

2) His presence, although welcomed and encouraged a year ago, will now serve as nothing more than a hinderance.

I realize my opinion may differ from your own, but that really isn't a reason for you to use such a large brush while painting a picture of me.

[blm]

96. Problem with the machines is that they ERASE THE EVIDENCE IMMEDIATELY.

YOU try going to court with no physical evidence and see how far it gets you.

Kerry is involved in the cases where there is evidence. You don't tell a guy who ran a prosecutors' office to make charges for which he has no evidence in hand.

[CornField]

102. There was evidence

even before the polls closed there was evidence -- at least enough to warrant an investigation.

Matter of fact, we had more evidence that the election here in the U.S. was a fraud than the people in ...

You know what? This is stupid. Kerry will do whatever he needs to do for himself. Those who support him and believe in him will continue to do so. I need to get back to work on the troubles right here in Iowa and quit batting a ball back and forth that, at the end of the day, won't make a hill of beans.

[kid a]

12. BOMBSHELL I want to hear: KERRY out of 08 race

No offense to the Kerry supporters here, but he can't win the WH

[Totally Committed]

59. Amen. eom

[goddess40]

14. It seems strange that there is no recourse for such treason?

To undermine an election and that there seem to be no "statue of limitations" just doesn't seem right. Did our founding fathers think that all men would be honest?

Because of two stolen elections Bush has murdered 2000+ Americans, injured thousands and no one is really counting those he murdered and maimed in Iraq. Not to mention the death and hardship he has caused across America because of his economic disaster, his lack of planning caused more deaths and destruction because of Katrina....
and the big one - 911 may not have happened or been so devastating if Gore had been in the White House.

[OKthatsIT]

15. Why do you say, "This is major"?

It WAS major 1 yr ago.

[ClassWarrior]

81. Agreed. Way late and therefore way disappointing. But now we know...

...at least by way of a reasonably reliable source, where Kerry stood and where Kerry stands.

NGU.

[bunny planet]

16. I think he's believed it for awhile but without the independent GAO

investigation supporting him, there was just no way anyone would have paid any attention in the MSM. Hell, they aren't even covering the report by GAO now. It may be, as some say, too late, but if there is a loud outcry about illegitimacy in 2004, in addition to the selection of 2000, considering how the majority feels about this President now (zero political capital to spend), this might motivate the call for impeachment a lot sooner than 2007. Do you even have to impeach an illegitimate President, if it's proven he stole it, or does the inauguration process make him legitimate despite his having stolen it?

I say do over.

[Botany]

20. Hi Bunny

Did I ever tell you that you are my FAV EDV?

:loveya:


I am listening to Stephanie :loveya: Miller now

Preparation Steph ...... Good for republicans who are a pain in the ass.

[bunny planet]

33. Oh thank Gawd, I thought you'd never say it.

I'm listening to Mama Stephie right now too luv.
Preparation Steph indeed! LOL

[karynnj]

67. I think you are right, bunny planet

I seriously doubt Teresa would have made the comments she did if he disagreed. Even then, Teresa's comment was that the machines MADE IT POSSIBLE to steal votes - not that they did. Kerry has made statements but only on the issues that are very clear cut fact.

Everyone is different - I think you convince more people when you stand on what is absolutely provable. The problem with speaking beyond knowledge is that if your opponent can disprove even one little statement it weakens the whole thing.

I think the constitution does not allow swapping Presidents even if the theft can be proved beyond a reason of a a doubt. The electors in the electoral Congress, certified by their state legisatures vote. It is that vote that counts. (SC judge Roberts advised Florida in 2000 that if the winner was in question, the legislature itself could pick the electors - nowhere does it say an eection is needed.)

[Botany]

18. Dept. of closing the barn door after the horse has run off .....

Way to hop on the issue.

No retreat .... no surrender

[OneTwentyoNine]

30. Buying the fire extinguisher after the house burns down....n/t

[TayTay]

19. He's been saying there were problems all year

He said this last year. He's still supporting the law suits in Ohio. His wife said this in April (and got pilloried in the Press as a nut-job and sore loser.) He mentioned it at least a dozen times this year. (Or more.) He is a sponsor of the reform bill in the US Senate to fix the problems that the Feds can fix in national elections.

He has spoken about this. (I have heard him, myself, mention it 3 times this year.)
His wife has spoken about this.
His brother has published at least 3 OpEd about this.
He mentioned it on MLK Day until last week when he took part in a Civil Rights march in Boston. (In which he directly addressed election fraud.) He mentioned it again this week at the Rosa Parks' memorial service. He has published about it in the Black Press.

Still, the biggie is supporting that bill, as do Sens. Clinton, Obama, et al.

So, what have you done to prove fraud?

[KoKo]

52. A huge number of DU'ers have worked since 2000 Selection to prove

fraud. And both Kerry and Edwards had to know what happened in 2000 ...and they promised to count every vote in 2004.

Supporting this bill is too late. The states are already purchasing the DRE machines to comply with the HAVA Act funding which expires. We will have the DRE's in many states for the Mid-Terms in 06 and 08.

This bill can't do much. The time for it was after 20002..when the evidence had come in from 2000 election due to Bev Harris and Andy Stephenson's work. This has been known, but no one wanted to touch it...because they were afraid that it would depress voter turnout if folks thought the system was rigged. (That's what I was told by a politico)

[TayTay]

54. Nothing is going to happen at all with Rethugs in power.

This is a chicken or the egg thing. We have to have more Dems to get reform. In order to get more Dems we have to have cleaner in elections. Well, in order to have cleaner elections, we, ahm, need more Dems.

The state reform movements are the best way to affect change right now. (Go Reform Ohio Now!) The national way is blocked and will be until the Dems take over either the Senate or House. The way is blocked up good.

BTW, most elections in American history have been fixed. It is only since the '60's that efforts have been made to get all Americans to the polls. Nasty tricks have always been used (sometimes by Dems) to depress the vote and dictate the outcome of a race. We are trying to reform a system that has resisted reform since the beginning of the Republic. Just to add some perspective.

We also need the media. Election fraud will never be a big concern to the general public until it gets out there on TV and in print. The press has to advocate for this. They are the critical piece.

[karynnj]

71. If the problem was 2002, why is Kerry mostly to blame

No one here asks where Al Gore or Bill Clinton were - they were the big name Democrats then. Kerry, like Edwards, Gepheart, Dean, etc were preparing Presidential runs.

Elections are run at the state level. A popular governor could have more successfully addressed this than a US Senator. For example,the Governor of a small state in the NE could have pushed through a landmark Honest Elections bill in 2001, 2002 and then lobbied in the media that all states needed to do this to preserve Democracy. At least it could have been a Governor's conference issue. So if the Senators are quilty of not understanding the full ramifications and working on this, the governors deserve more blame - Dean included.

In fairness to all, I think most politicians saw 2000 as an aberration. Because Gore focused his case on the 3 counties (Palm Beach, Broward and ?) the other issues of the felon list, the suppresion of black vote in various ways and other illegalities were ignored. The easy solution was federal money to buy modern machines to replace the punch machines that caused the problem in 2000.

Only in hindsight do we see the many ways they cheated. A measure of how well Kerry was doing - is the diversity of ways they siphoned off votes. They did stop some, but they didn't catch all of them. The question now is what is being done at all levels to fix the problem. This is not a problem that can be fixed by the JR Senator from Massachusetts alone.

[KoKo]

73. I agree with what you say. The problem is that Kerry/Edwards were

aware enough of the voting problems that they put lawyers in all over the country to monitor the elections. Problem was the lawyers didn't know or believe that the problem could be in the "code" in the machines where the tampering could take place in selected precincts in selected areas. So they thought they were monitoring "old time" fraud when it was computer fraud and disenfranchisment (an old trick) that caused Ohio to go for Bush, it appears. But not just Ohio there was fraud all over the US and fautly machines caused results here in NC to held up for local candidates for months because of lost votes and machine failure to record.

I think they didn't believe us... And, when politicians trust their judgement over that of the people whose opinions they are supposed to honor is when the trouble begins. Ego's and insularity help them feel that we "THE PEOPLE" don't know much.

[karynnj]

79. I'm not sure what could have been done by general election season

They did on one show demonstrate how the tabulators could be rigged (Tina Brown - with Howard Dean, who was a Kerry surrogate at that point being shown how to cheat.) My guess is this was a last minute attempt to warn the Republicans off by showing we know about the possibility. The problem was that by the fall, I don't know what Kerry's people could have done.

This should have been addressed after the 2002 election - as you say- probably by the DNC. It couldn't wait until the candidate was picked and the candidate had enough work to do to win enough supporters -this was already a 16 hr a day job.

This also suggests to me that the DNC may need to have a permanent team - with computer professionals as well as lawyers to back state organizations in cleaning their state in the off season and to quickly examine stuff as it comes up. Whoever the presidential candidate is next time - he/she needs a working party that is dealing with these issues and strengthening the grassroots and local parties. (The good news is that this may be starting - I volunteered a few times last year and more often this year to phone people - the lists are SOOO much better. NJ has a Gov and state assembly (our lower body) election.)

They did stop several disenranchisment efforts in Ohio - notably preventing all the "wrong weight" paper registrations from being thrown out.

[KoKo]

82. We out here are "onto it" and are working so hard. We need DNC

support. You are correct. It would have helped if they had distanced themselves from that faked up Baker/Carter Elections Commission which was set up to undermine our work out here. We got a bill through the NC legislature. People took time off work, donated their own money to print literature. Many NC DU'ers were involved in this...they did it for no pay just to try to stop any more of these machines being purchased. We got the bill through...and our Dem Governor(DINO) seems to be working "behind the scenes" to support those trying get around a loophole in the bill that would allow Verified Paper Ballot to mean "attaching a printer" to a DRE Machine. We have to keep ever vigilant but so many people can't give up more time to keep after it when we are being undermined by our own Dems.

Please keep at it though in your state. We have to keep doing it, but we need BIG HELP from our Party Nationally to keep pressure on the issue and on our Dems that are DINO's in the Red States. The voting machine companies have most of the State Elections officials in their pockets by wining and dining them...cruises and perks. They find a way around every thing we can do. And, there's no way to get a "loophole free bill" through a legislature. We learned how hard it is to get what we were able to get through given that both parties have to pass whatever is proposed and compromise often weakens what one starts out with.

We just have to keep trying until someone gets a lawsuit against these companies. I was hoping the GAO Report would get more attention.

[sandnsea]

110. Glitchgate

The problem is that there are too many theories about how the election was stolen. One minute it's all Diebold, then it's all the touch screens, then it's the uplink including opti-scan, then it's wireless tampering, then it's employee tampering. There's no consistency and there's certainly no pattern.

Somebody needs to learn how to focus on one or two simple problems and hammer away at them. Glitches in the DRE's, all over the country, one. Minority disenfranchisement, two. And let the rest of it go for now.

[seshers]

22. How is it major?

Does this mean he will do something?

I see differing points of view on how Kerry handled the "election". A number of DU members take the time to point out how Kerry let them down. While that is their right, I tire of it. No candidate ever represents me 100%. Do I want more? Yes. Do I spend time condemning the people who at least TRY to fight for me? No. Effort counts. Kerry tried and in some ways still is.

I hope there is something, anything that can be done to return this country to the people. We here at DU are a start. Keep fighting but, attack the right side(pun intended).

[OneTwentyoNine]

27. Hmm...must have used that EXTRA money that myself and others sent

at the 11th hour before the election. Yup,John said he needed it for recounts and lawyers,we weren't going to get robbed again.

Well SOAB,about a year later John thinks he and AMERICA got ripped off by the Bush crime family. Wow John.....

[jedr]

29. In two weeks he plans to rebut the Swift boat accusations!

sorry the sarcasm icon wasn't working!

[fighttotheend]

34. No SHit it was stolen!

[wtbymark]

35. it's not "big news", it means he's s-l-o-w

if he's just catching on now- it's either fashionable, or he's dim-witted

[PurityOfEssence]

47. I guess that's why he doesn't do stand-up. Timing.

Okay folks, are we convinced now that more than anything, what Americans want in their politicians is a sense of quickness and decisiveness? This is why Junior's suffering right now: Katrina.

I generally back off from slagging Kerry or Gore, but Jesus H. Christ; the guy's like a cigar store wooden indian. Ugh.

[mtnsnake]

48. Whether it was stolen, or whether it was bought w/promised tax breaks,

Kerry did nothing on either avenue to help us when it counted the most. He failed to fight for for all the people who thought the election was fixed when the timing was better to do so, and he failed to convince the people who vote with their wallets that Bush's tax plan is worse than ours. He failed any which way you look at it when it counted.

[zann725]

49. Maybe he's finally listening to all my emails (in response to all his

"look at what speech I've given"..."look at all I'm doing" emails.

I often reply with, "Not enough. You need to speak up NOW and admit the election was stolen. All else is NOT enough, NOT soon enough to save this country and economy.

Come on, let's all email him and ask him to NOT just admit it to Crispin, but to ALL of us in emails and in press conferences.

Let's get this "recall Bush" campaign rolling. Impeachment is too slow, and rather illogical...considering the Shrub was NEVER elected in the first place (is essentially JUST a "squatter").

Come on, let's all email JK. If what he allegedly said to Crispin is true, let's make him go public with it often and again.

[mtnsnake]

51. Let me know when you EVER get a reply from ANY of these guys.

Most of 'em couldn't care less what we email to them, and I'm not just talking about Kerry.

[zann725]

53. Agreed. His office is NOT terrific at replies. But that doesn't mean

the messages aren't being read. JK's a detail person, and well-read, and DOES care about constiuents. I agree he needs to hire someone to at least create a "reply" SOON to his emails (like many other rep's do).

But one should never quit sending out the "message," because the answer's not yet been received...as Cindy Sheehan all taught us recently. Shrub never had to come to the end of his driveway for her to shape public policy, and have a political impact nationally.

I personally will continue to respond to JK's group emails of "look what speech I've given"...with my standard: "It's NOT enough. Admit the election was stolen NOW."

[mtnsnake]

56. The thing is

When you send well-thought-out emails, and you don't get a response from SOMEONE that they at least got it, it shows me a complete lack of respect. On top of that, by sending emails to them, it also lets them know the thing they want to know the most....that people are listening to them. Fuck people who don't get back. I won't patronize them more than once if they fail to acknowledge their supporters. Instead, I'll try writing someone else who listens.

[zann725]

60. I tend to get "results" when I complain about "change" on most any thing.

Friends often marvel at my persistence, and results. Like slow-dripping water...

[Stinky The Clown]

55. Okay .... he said .... now what's he gonna do about it?

I will never forget my 2.30 AM phone calls to DNC headquarters and to the Kerry campaign headquarters asking them both if they were gonna fight the fraud.

They both said yes.

Neither has done shit.

[zann725]

58. The Ohio election suits still proceed, last time I checked.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. Kerry was never seriously involved in that

He caved the day after the election, remember? It was on all the news shows.

[KalicoKitty]

62. Vote RIGGING

This programmer claims that he designed and built a "vote rigging" software program at the behest of then Florida Congressman, now U.S. Congressman, Republican Tom Feeney of Florida's 24th Congressional District.

Clint Curtis, 46, claims that he built the software for Feeney in 2000 while working at a sofware design and engineering company in Oviedo, Florida (Feeney's home district).

Curtis, in his affidavit, says that as technical advisor and programmer at Yang Enterprises, Inc. (YEI) he was present at company meetings where Feeney was present "on at least a dozen occasions".

Feeney, who had run in 1994 as Jeb Bush's running-mate in his initial unsuccessful bid for Florida Governor, was serving as both corporate counsel and registered lobbyist for YEI during the period that Curtis worked at the company. Feeney was also concurrently serving as a Florida state congressman while performing those services for YEI. Feeney would eventually become Speaker of the Florida House before being elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 2002. He is now a member of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee.

At an October 2000 meeting with Feeney, according to the affidavit and BRAD BLOG interviews with Curtis over the past three days, Feeney inquired whether the company could build a "vote fraud software prototype".

At least three YEI employees are said to have been present at that meeting; Curtis, company owner, Mrs. Li Woan Yang, and her executive secretary, Mike Cohen. Two other YEI employees may have come in and out at different points of the meeting according to Curtis.

Curtis says that Feeney "was very specific in the design and specifications required for this program."

"He detailed, in his own words, that; (a) the program needed to be touch-screen capable (b) the user should be able to trigger the program without any additional equipment (c) the programming to accomplish this needed to stay hidden even if the source code was inspected."

Though there was no problem with the first two requirements, Curtis explained to the Congressman that it would be "virtually impossible to hide such code written to change the voting results if anyone is able to review the uncompiled source code"

Nonetheless, he was asked at the meeting by Mrs. Yang to build the prototype anyway.

Curtis, "a life-long Republican" at the time, claims that it was his initial belief that Feeney's interest was in trying to stop Democrats from using "such a program to steal an election". Curtis had assumed that Feeney, "wanted to be able to detect and prevent that if it occurred."

Upon delivery of the software design and documentation on CD to Mrs. Yang, Curtis again explained to her that it would be impossible to hide routines created to manipulate the vote if anybody would be able to inspect the precompiled source code.

Mrs. Yang then told him, "You don’t understand, in order to get the contract we have to hide the manipulation in the source code. This program is needed to control the vote in South Florida."

Mrs. Yang then took the CD containing the software from Curtis, reportedly for later delivery to Feeney.

In other meetings with Feeny prior to the 2000 elections, it became clear to Curtis that Feeney had plans to suppress the vote in strong Democratic precincts. In the affidavit, Curtis claims that in those meetings Feeney had "bragged that he had already implemented 'exclusion lists' to reduce the 'black vote'." Feeney also mentioned that "proper placement of police patrols could further reduce the black vote by as much as 25%."

Curtis says that he submitted his resignation to YEI effective December 2000, but stayed on until they had found someone to replace him in February of 2001. He eventually became employed by the Florida Dept. of Transportation (FDOT) after leaving YEI.

Listen and watch this:

http://www.iwilltryit.com/fixed1.htm

Now Clint is dead!

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001024.htm

:mad:

There have been soooooo many mysterious deaths since Bush first stole office way back in 2000!

Bush's ratings were in the low 40's back in November. I hate it when I hear Bush "won"!

[coffeenap]

64. He needs support from people like us to get the nomination

for '08--finally figured it out. Politics as usual, I think. Seeing a trend, using it. I won't support him in the primaries, I would work like hell for him if he became our candidate--because we will have no other choice to take back this country.

[Dr Fate]

98. I have no problem with that. I LIKE being "catered" to...

...I like the fact that Kerry has his ear to the ground concerning the base.

Ever noticed that you can respond to his mass emails? His staffers are following the base too.

Politics as usual? I'm not so sure- it has been I while since I've felt someone with national exposure is actually listening to us.

Dean & Kerry are LISTENING to us- that is good thing.

[grasswire]

66. the difference between Edwards and Kerry

Edwards accepted the realization that the election was stolen. Kerry refused to do so, even though his own wife was convinced.

The difference between Kerry and Edwards? Kerry swore an oath to an allegiance to the members of Skull and Bones, to supercede all other allegiances.

[flpoljunkie]

68. Really? Where did you read that Edwards says election was stolen?

[grasswire]

69. I didn't read it.

I know someone who dines regularly with the Kerrys. However, I suppose the qualifier "allegedly" would have been wise to include in my sentence since Edwards has made no such public statement.

[ClassWarrior]

78. Miller also said this on DN!

NGU.

[flpoljunkie]

80. Yes, I just heard it. Edwards is right about media calling us names

either way, but I agree with Kerry that the media would have indeed jumped on Kerry with both feet and called him "SORE LOSER!" Can't you just hear Tweety screaming these words? I, unfortunately, can.

[AspenRose]

85. You could tell in Edwards' reaction after the election

He was pissed they weren't going to fight it. You could tell.

He knew.

[mzteris]

70. Guess it depends on how you read it......

Kerry's running mate, Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, told supporters in Boston there would be no concession until all votes had been counted in Ohio.

"It's been a long night, but we've waited four years for this victory, we can wait one more night," Edwards said, adding: "We will fight for every vote."

***

WALLACE (voice-over): A sign the Kerry campaign had no intention of conceding. It was John Edwards, not John Kerry, going before supporters in Boston at 2:30 a.m. local time.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's been a long night, but we've waited four years for this victory. We can wait one more night.

John Kerry and I made a promise to the American people that, in this election, every vote would count and every vote would be counted.

WALLACE: The senator never mentioned Ohio, but that's Camp Kerry's focus. In a statement, campaign manager Mary Beth Cahill said, "There are more than 250,000 remaining votes to be counted. We believe when they are, John Kerry will win Ohio."

Senator Kerry remained out of sight, huddled inside his Boston townhouse with his family and staff. The dramatic developments following a day where the senator's advisers, looking at exit polling, had an air of confidence.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0411/03/ltm.04.html

[SheepyMcSheepster]

74. good for him, about time.

as many have said: better late than never.

[IndianaGreen]

75. Jimmy Carter said the same thing on Larry King two nights ago

and Carter also said that Gore was elected President in 2000, but the Supreme Court gave the election to Bush.

[Wilms]

83. kick n/t

[Borgnine]

84. This is a good thing, no matter what.

Yes, it would have been fan-fucking-tastic had Kerry had this realization a year ago. For whatever reason, he didn't, and I was one of the first people here to deride the man following his concession speech. Hell, I still do to this day, and the passion I had built up for him following the primaries will never be recovered.

But would the people who are complaining about this rather he stay in his make-believe world of denial, or have him realize that the election was stolen and future elections will no doubt be stolen as well?

Kerry's a high-profile Democrat, and if the sting of last year's defeat has indeed ceded to the bitter taste of knowing he should have rightfully won, we'll have the warrior we need to fight against voting fraud.

Yes, he was a day late and a dollar short on both the war and the 2004 sham. So were millions of Americans. But until we can build a DeLorean with a flux capacitor, this is going to be the next best thing to changing history.

[AspenRose]

88. FYI: New Mexico and Voting Machines

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2222409

Of COURSE the election was stolen.

[NinetySix]

94. Duh.

n/t

[Dr Fate]

95. I support John Kerry's view. I'm not "in" to bashing this guy anymore.

Let's look at the big picture- when people AGREE with you, you support them.

[ClassWarrior]

101. So true, Doc.

B-):thumbsup:

NGU.

[PATRICK]

105. I can imagine

getting backed into a corner by Crispin who believed the election was stolen even before the GOP orders went out to do it. And he shouldn't have spent his own credibility trying to nail down a reluctant pol in a fight they have no intention of ever surfacing.

Meanwhile even making an issue of the Dems NOT fighting election fraud is about as frontline as a GAO report on the back page of the Times. This is one of those stupidly repressed(ignored, sidestepped?) issues that reminds one of pre-WWII appeasement by the "wise" when it was extremely apparent to anyone with common sense what evils are openly going on toward a devastation of democracy.

Neither the party, even in its more progressive factions, nor the organizations most concerned or involved have developed a frontline coalition or publicity worthy of the evil- as much as they accomplished in certain areas. Neither the party officials nor the people are properly informed or on target as the slaughter of the ballots continues.

[MsAnthropy]

106. Kerry is denying this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x399843

[texpatriot2004]

107. Why did he take it back? nm

[Freddie Stubbs]

112. Perhaps he never said it

[mtnsnake]

108. You mean he USED to believe it was stolen

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5265609

Wow, that didn't take him long!

[ClassWarrior]

109. That's a rotten shame.

NGU.

[Zhade]

111. Wow. A little late, but wow nonetheless.

MCM is pretty solid - if this is true, what does Kerry plan to do?

Despite my disgust with his war stance, if he steps up to take legal action to restore our democracy by getting his rightful place in office, I'll have his back on that. I believe in supporting people when they do right and tearing them down when they do wrong, so I'd HAVE to support him in the effort.

Will he make one?

[Pam-Moby]

113. If this is the case, then we need a special election here in the US

[zann725]

117. Or a "Recall?" Seems much quicker. Gray Davis was gone in months

...sadly. But in THIS case however...

[YvonneCa]

115. Maybe...

...Kerry is having this "public" disagreement on purpose, to draw attention to vote reform and use the 2004 Election as an example of the problem. It's clear he never gets any media coverage when he speaks seriously to solutions for the problems we face (ie: the Georgetown University speech on the way forward in Iraq, which is on CSPAN and is EXCELLENT!). If it takes a silly difference of opinion scandal with MCM to draw attention to election reform, I say "Go for it, Senator!" I LOVE both Kerry and Mark Crispin Miller.

:patriot: