Trippi's Gone, the $41 million's gone. Is this Howard's End?

[DemBones DemBones]

I was stunned to read about most of the $41 million raised by the Dean campaign in 2003 being gone. It's said they have about $3 mill but they also have about $3 mill in debt, so they effectively raised $41 million and spent it all in Iowa and NH (and whatever they've already done in other states to be a "national campaign.")

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/01/29/dean/index.html

(That's a Premium article, but you can get a free day pass to read the article.)

The New York Times account of what's happening gives the amount on hand to be between four and five million but says it's all money raised in 2004 and the campaign is scrambling for more, had to stop airing TV ads across the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/29/politics/campaign/29DEAN.html?hp


This is bad news for the Dean campaign and I am sorry for everyone who has been supporting him so enthusiastically. This must be a painful blow for you all. Even though I oppose Dean, I wanted him to lose to another Democrat, not be brought down by financial mismanagement within his own campaign.

But, to me, although the money problem is huge, the thing that really signals Howard's End is that Dean brought in this Washington insider and former lobbyist, Roy Neel, to run his campaign, and Trippi quit rather than have Neel have authority over him. That's a big, big change, after all these months and months of Trippi firing up the base and all the excitement about this being an "open source" campaign, no top-down management, etc., because Neel is obviously supposed to exercise top-down management.

from the Times article:

"The selection of Mr. Neel, a former telecommunications lobbyist who was an aide to Mr. Gore for nearly 20 years, on Capitol Hill and in the Clinton White House, is a stark shift for an insurgent campaign powered largely by political neophytes whose main message is overthrowing the establishment. He is the ultimate Washington insider, not unlike like those Dr. Dean derides daily."

"But campaign officials say Mr. Neel was hired to bring order and professionalism to the decentralized — often woefully disorganized — troops that Mr. Trippi led more by inspiration than instruction."


So how do Dean supporters feel about all this? Not much has been said here yet, maybe because the news is too new.

What bothers you more, the fact that all the money's spent and more will have to be raised to air ads again? OR the imposition of a traditional top-down organizational structure on the campaign? IS this the end? Or will you continue to donate to Dean and support him as before?

[JNelson6563]

1. I may be mistaken here

But I am pretty sure you could've tried a little harder to conceal your glee.

Julie

[jumptheshadow]

26. I think you're mistaken

I read the post twice. The writer expresses sympathy for Dean supporters and asks a bonafide question about some facts.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Thank you. I tried to be clear in my post.

I'm still stunned that that much money had already been spent. I understand that it's been spent in many states, not just Iowa and NH, but not to have kept some money back is a huge mistake on someone's part.

[MercutioATC]

89. PLEASE...sympathy???

Haven't been here long, have you? Look through certain poster's messages...this post is just offensive.

[jumptheshadow]

91. Been here for a while

Lurked a while before I started posting...

I saw Dean supporters say "Cancel the Primaries" -- in November.

Saw them systematically trash good men...

Saw them bash older people...

Saw one of them demean gay relationships while defending his candidate, without any other Dean supporters jumping in to apologize or lend a voice of reason.

Saw them bash Clark on gays in the military with feigned outrage. The fakeness of it all became transparent when the same people petulantly said they wouldn't vote for the Democratic candidate if it wasn't Dean -- DESPITE Bush's horribly anti-gay State of the Union address.

But still, I feel sorry for the decent Dean folks who have enthusiastically sent in contributions that, for many, were hard to afford.

They have been screwed.

[MercutioATC]

92. ALL candidates have obnoxious supporters, unfortunately, including Dean

That doesn't give somebody who spends more time posting anti-Dean pieces than pieces in support of his own candidate a "pass".

My issue is with feigned sympathy by posters who have done everything in their power to weaken Dean's campaign.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. We Kucinich supporters are used to hardship!

And DK has about $10 million now (and more coming in, of course) so he's doing well. He's a great believer in Gandhi's teachings, one of which is:

"First they ignore you, then they laught at you, then they fight you.
Then you win."

We're into the fighting stage now.

[jsw_81]

51. And Kucinich is going to be nominated on the first ballot, right?

Gotta love the True Believer. I hope you channel some of that energy into supporting Kerry this fall.

[MMT]

54. Who knows? Stranger things happen all the time.

And if not the first ballot, then the second. Or the fifth. We're not that fussy.

[DemBones DemBones]

59. I'm not going to argue that DK is unstoppable -- it's bad luck.

But he's a great candidate and I'm glad he's in the race.

Voters have been turning to Kerry so far but we'll have to see how it plays out.

[kstewart33]

56. It's a good and fair post

Dean's organizational and financial problems are now huge. It's a very interesting situation and merits discussion. I don't hear any gloating or glee there.

[JNelson6563]

93. Well if I'd been bitter enough toward a candidate

who forever outshone mine to write lots of negative posts about, and I saw that candidate take a huge fall.....

Well, I would probably be gleeful.

Small minded you say? Petty? Spiteful? Consistent with the bitter, negative posts in previous days though so a very logical conclusion.

If you do not believe that many here are not gleeful at this situation for the Dean campaign you are much mistaken. And I include many here who are "expressing sympathy". IMO the one of the best indicators of sympathy sincerity is posting history.

Julie

[corporatewhore]

106. what a negative out look i will come out and say idont like dean but

i would like to see him stay in the race because he adds his own uique persona to it and am glad he started to get the washington insiders shaking in their loafers (even though i believe he is dlc material) and have to give him props for his incredible campaign structure

[ringmastery]

2. I want to know

what kind of house Joe Trippi will buy in the Caymans with all the money he looted from Dean's campaign.

[FubarFly]

3. Dean is still #1 Superstar in my book.

What bothers most Dean supporters is the thought of having to vote for someone else. An outreach effort is in order. Time is running out...

[OKNancy]

10. If he drops out

which is not certain by any means.....I am reaching out to you to open your heart to Wes Clark. If you haven't read too much about his issues, please do that for me. He is an outsider just like Dean and I think he, of all the candidates besides Dean, has done the most on-target jabs at Bush.

[FubarFly]

12. Thank you.

I will vote for Clark if can convince me that he truly serving the interests of the people, and not the establishment. For me, this will mean getting some basic answers to questions I have about his background. It's late now, and I'm getting ready to call it a night..er morning, but maybe later you'll be able to help me.

[Jack_Dawson]

17. Clark is an Outsider - Kerry is not

www.clark04.com - details Clark's stances quite nicely.

[ibegurpard]

14. Nice try

I know you're chomping at the bit but you really need to wait a while longer and see what happens and then be a little more subtle about it. :hi:

[OKNancy]

20. I think that is evident in my post

and other posts I have done this morning. I DO NOT think Dean is out of it at all. Someone writes that there needs to be an outreach, so I replied. No "chomping at the bit" here.

[MMT]

53. Many Dean supporters have said that Dean is closest to Dennis

and Dennis was the second choice on their lists. So will that translate to a wholesale shift to support for Dennis, if the worst happens?

Dean supporters could change the whole course of the election, if they want to.

[DannyRed]

4. Ummmm...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Democrats-Money.html

Look, if y'all are gonna chase after every little bit of gossip and rumor spread around by the same media that y'all so often criticise...

Well, it is pretty funny.

Why not wait a couple of weeks and see how it really shakes down before cackling with glee and pronouncing people dead in sonorous tones of fake sorrow.

Oh, and libelous and unsubstantiated smears based on complete lack of knowledge are not necessarily very good form, either.

Remember...1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999...

Whitewater, Troopergate, Filegate, Fostergate...and blah blah blah blah.

It really amazes me to see the same people who complain so loud about the SCLM, BFEE, kid gloves for the GOP, Clinton smears...then proceed to parrot word for word the same crap from the same losers....when it suits your purpose of course.

[Terwilliger]

5. Dean STILL has about 10 times the chance that Kucinich does

maybe you could address that in your next post

[Racenut20]

6. Who says mis-management ????

Their campaign spent the money trying to win. Perhaps there were alternative decisions as to how, there always is, but I see nothing messy in the why.

[ibegurpard]

7. LOL

All of these messages of sympathy for us poor, bamboozled Dean supporters. Can you all feel the love?

[FubarFly]

9. Is that what that smell is?

Ah love sweet love.

[quaker bill]

8. No

Not if they start winning. In fact, even if Howard Dean wins nowhere, every major candidate now sounds so much like Howard Dean on so many major issues, that my money was quite well spent.

Unlike Nader 4 years ago, who was "going to move the Democrats left", win, lose, or draw, this campaign has changed the race. We are not done yet.

Thanks for your (faux) concern.

[vi5]

11. $41 million dollars gone?!?! What a story to wake up to...

Was this just mis-management? Did they realize they were blowing it all in 2 states? And then counting on more money to come in?

[DannyRed]

13. Read more than just the headlines, please

41 million was NOT spent in just two states.

It was spent in MANY states.

It is NOT all gone, a lot of it is.

Was it mis-spent?

Not all of it.

Was it wasted? Not all of it.

[Gringo Tex]

15. Dean was getting all this credit for running a "grassroots" campaign...

when in fact his campaign was more ad-based than any of them.

Can I get my $50 back?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gringo Tex]

19. I demand a refund!

Actually, I'm still happy I donated to Dean. He served a very important function by making the anti-Iraq War position mainstream. Now he needs to step aside and let the professionals take over.

[napi21]

76. I'm sending another donation this morning!

No you don't deserve a refund, and although I donated $75 already, I'm sending another $25 this morning! Dean is not DEAD as most of you would hope! There are a lot of supporters out there.....VOLUNTEERS....remember! We aren't quiting, and neither is Dean.

I think this campaign will run until Super Tuesday in March. Just because he didn't win in 2 relatively small states doesn't mean it's all over at all.

[mdmc]

23. Wlecome to DU, Tex

You want your money back cause dfa spent it on advertising, and not "grassroots"? LOL! What did you think your ducuts would buy, shoes for canvassing?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. That's A Good One.....

NT

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. I find this SO sad!

Dean and his supporters have worked so hard and to have this happen...is very sad to me. :(

[ibegurpard]

24. I'm sure you do.

Save your sympathy for another day.

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. That was sincere.

I don't care if you believe it was or not. That was a rude comment to a heartfelt post. :grr:

[ibegurpard]

50. Oh come on.

You've been gladly savaging Dean along with everyone else. At least be consistent.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. How gracious of you.

:(

[patricia92243]

21. Are you kidding? I will support Dean even more. I'm sure a lot of people

feel eactly the same. I just wish he could get some decent ad cut and run before the election Tuesday. Anybody know anything about that?

[napi21]

78. I'm sure

that's one of the things Neel will be working on. I hate to say it, but there is a lot to be said about experience in running campaigns. Trippi is a good guy, but if you think about who's campaigns he ran in the past, his track record of winning isn't great.

[Frederic Bastiat]

22. Er time to fill up that bat again

Suckers.

[On the Road]

102. Flamebait

This post should be deleted for calling another candidate's supporters "suckers".

[DemBones DemBones]

27. Well. it's good to see some Dean supporters are alive,

and angry.

Whatever you choose to believe, I was stunned and sorry to read these reports. Perhaps none of you are hurt by this, perhaps you're all older and tougher, but I was thinking of all the college kids who have been so committed to the Dean campaign and what this may do to their idealism. I was thinking about my kids and my former students and what it's like to be college age and have your beliefs shaken.

[ibegurpard]

28. Noticed your sig line

What'd you think of Kucinich throwing in with Edwards in Iowa?

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Just before the Iowa primary,

I answered that question here and on another forum numerous times.

I had no problem with it. It was a temporary political alliance between two candidates who have become friendly during the campaign and who share deep feelings about helping the poor and middle class rather than the rich.

Kucinich is the only candidate who voted against IWR and the only candidate with a consistent stance against the war and occupation/ continuing war so unless he wins the nomination, I know I'll have to vote for someone whose position on the war is less clear than his, very likely someone who voted for IWR. He and Edwards have similar economic views and plans.

So how do you feel about this Washington insider taking over for Trippi? Do you feel that this is a horrible violation of principles (as Kucinich's alliance with Edwards was often labeled), a complete reversal of what the campaign has stood for?

[ibegurpard]

42. This Washington insider worked for Gore

who I would be supporting now had he not been forced out. So I guess I have a kind of pragmatic view of it...similar to your position on the Kucinich-Edwards alliance.

[DemBones DemBones]

52. True enough, and I would

probably feel the same re: Neel in/ Trippi out if I were a Dean supporter (and be more upset that they spent all the money with months to go.) You evidently are not one of those who thought Trippi was essential to the campaign.

So do you think Dean can raise enough money to keep going? You don't think this will turn people off to giving to him?

[ibegurpard]

55. Not turning me off

Because I haven't seen anything other than clucking on this board to indicate that there was actual financial mismanagement and even if there turns out to have been, Trippi is gone.

[DemBones DemBones]

72. Don't you think it's irresponsible to spend your entire war chest

by the end of the first two statewide races? I don't know that there's been any embezzling or anything like that, it just isn't good management to have spent it all so fast.. Dean's got some 500 staff members who are being asked to go without pay for two weeks, and that certainly shouldn't be happening.

And it gives the other candidates (and Bush, if Dean manages to rise up like the phoenix and win the nomination) something to clobber Dean with. (Didn't he criticize Kerry for mortgaging his house to raise money for the campaign? Or was it just Dean supporters who did that?) He evidently trusted Trippi (or perhaps Kate O'Connor or Bob Rogan) to watch the money and wasn't a hands-on manager of his own campaign.

[HFishbine]

49. Don't mislead yourself

Kucinich didn't throw his support to a candidate who's position on the war was "less clear" than his. He chose to support a candidate who is as hawkish on this war as Lieberman; one who says he stands by his vote for the war, that he wasn't misled by the "intelligence," and who is glad we invaded even over the objections of the international community; one who says the war was the "right thing to do."

I may have to start looking to another candidate, as will most of us eventually, but Kucinich is out. He demonstrated how committed he is to his principles quite clearly and I'm not impressed.

[DemBones DemBones]

57. I try not to mislead myself or anyone else.

I didn't say Edwards was "less clear" in his position on the war. I said Kucinich was the only one who has been consistent in his opposition to the war and occupation. You're right about Edwards supporting the war and am sorry you can't see that he and Kucinich are close on some other issues. I think it's important to be able to work with other people, even when you don't agree on every issue. Dennis didn't betray his principles, which remain unchanged, any more than Edwards betrayed his.

So are you upset by a change in the Dean campaign's principles of not being "top-down"? And bringing in a Washington insider to replace Trippi?

[MMT]

60. In what way is "better dead than Red" a progressive position, HFishbine?

Because that's the choice Dennis faced. He did not "throw his support" to anyone, he made a one-time, one-evening deal to EXCHANGE support. It was a two-way deal. That's a big difference.

[HFishbine]

61. Right. A two way deal that netted Kucinich

zero delgates.

[MMT]

65. That's how it worked out, not how it was intended.

Nobody predicted Edwards would get second place, either.

[HFishbine]

66. Further indication

of Kucinich's poor judgement.

[MMT]

70. What, Dennis should have predicted it even though nobody else did?

[Ficus]

84. I think it was good judgement

Helping Dean finish 3rd helps Dennis. Dean relies on big money for his ads, meanwhile, Dennis' campaign IS really people powered. He'll be in it until the convention no matter what. Dennis' only hope is to try to get Dean out and pick up the anti-war vote. If something along those lines doesn't happen, Kucinich is screwed.

And yes, I caucused for Dennis - then Edwards, and I do it again.

Some of you people need to get off of your IWR high horse. It was a deal - it's called strat-eee-gery.

[DemBones DemBones]

74. Sometimes a good deed is repaid later.

And that CNN story you refer to that showed DK having zero delegates is a projection. Since he actually won 1.2-3% of the votes, he can expect to have about 39 delegates from Iowa, but nobody actually has Iowa delegates until they have their county conventions in March.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ficus]

87. 39 to the district conventions

of course.

[no name no slogan]

90. Let me help you with that

I'm guessing you've never been to a county-, district- or state-level convention before, so I'll give you the basic explanation of how they work.

Many of those Edwards delegates were actually Kucinich people who were absorbed into the Edwards subcaucus. They were given delegate slots for bringing in DK supporters, and gaining delegats for Edwards.

Those delegates are required to vote for their pledged candidates on the first ballot ONLY. After that, they can do whatever they want, make whatever deals they want, etc.

So, IOW, if there's no majority in the first round, they do a second round of balloting-- but not before there's some horse-trading between various groups for support. I've been to a couple CD-level and state-level conventions, and I've RARELY seen an endorsement on the first ballot-- not even for races where one candidate appears to have the clear majority.

Not to mention their Congressional District level conventions don't happen until April or May-- things could be MUCH different by then. Candidates could drop out and release their delegates. Gephardt has already done that with his Iowa delegates. They're basically up for grabs.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. I Think Joe Trippi

should be hold accountable for taking 15% commission on ad buys...


I am a publisher who works with ad agencies all the time...


He's a campaign manager not an advertising agency.....


Something smells...

[ibegurpard]

31. Something smells all right

the odor of faux outrage.

[bearfartinthewoods]

45. i think he should refund any money spent on creating those ads

no offense but the ones i saw sucked. i think the dean campaign should run a contest like moveon did for new ads. there is a lot of creativity out there to tap for FREE!!!!

[MMT]

63. It was his company, not he, that took the commissions, wasn't it?

And as long as Dean signed off on it upfront, where's the problem (other than the practical one)?

I worked with some people for awhile who did something similar. They were working as executives for a company that was a startup subsidiary of a foreign company. They got together and formed a company that they then contracted with to supply stuff to the subsidiary. So they had a huge conflict of interest. The difference was that, unlike Trippi, these people didn't tell the foreign parent company.

[progressivebydesign]

97. Actually...

Tripped went salary-less in return for the 15%. The problem IS.. Trippi, and his ad biz partner, McMahon (Dean's media ADVISOR), were calling the shots on how much to spend on ads and air time. Get it? And.. they spent a ton.. making, by average estimates, 3 to 5 million dollars from Dean. It's one thing to sell paper clips or paper to him... but quite another to make money based upon the expert advice you're giving him on ad purchases.

[mouse7]

94. I agree. Dean's claim to fiscal responsibility is gone after this.

I've done lots of campaigns. The LAST thing that supposed to happen for campaign staff on the Democratic side is making big bucks from the process. The idea that the campaign manager wouldn't simply discount the ad buy rateto the campaign after agency costs are paid is really horrifying. For Dean to have been conned into giving Trippi such a fat deal shows a decision making process broken at the most fundamental level.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

99. Agree. Not a good thing

did they really blow the whole wad?

[progressivebydesign]

96. More details on that..

Trippi's "media consulting agency" partner McMahon, was Dean's Media Advisor, he brought his PARTNER in the ad agency, Trippi to Dean and suggested he hire him to run the campaign. I adore Dean, but I think anyone would have run screaming from an arrangement where Trippi foregoes a salary in return for the 15% cut on all ad buys. These ad buys were at the advice of... Trippi and his partner, the Dean Media Advisor. Dean put millions into the ads.. and they weren't good ads, either. Trippi made millions, Dean is broke. It sucks. While I'm not saying there were any laws broken, of course. The law of common sense would have dictated you don't get advice from the person that stands to make millions off of you.

[jumptheshadow]

30. I know some Dean supporters

They are good folks, they are stunned, and they certainly don't mind either sympathy or support right now.

[ibegurpard]

32. I'll accept sympathy and/or support when there is something to

justify it. This is all just an attempt to whip up a controversy over half-truths and innuendo and lame attempts to get people to jump ship to other campaigns. If Howard Dean goes down, I'm not going to listen to sympathetic platitudes from people who were instrumental in taking him down.

[KoKo]

68. Agree! Thank you for saying it! Half-truths and innuendo. Begala was

doing it this morning on Imus. Calling those who supported Dean and who were against the "Iraq Invasion" the left extreme of the Democratic party. He said he and Carville didn't think Dean was electable. What does that tell you. We here are not "acceptable" to the Dem Party.

That's what's going on with Dean. Another "Goreing."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I Feel Like A Little Boy In Sunday School

when we were taught about Christ's warning that "it is better to have a millstone wrapped around your neck and be cast out into the sea than to lead one of my little ones astray..."


Who will tell these idealistic kids...

[DemBones DemBones]

41. Well, I didn't intend to give the

impression that anyone was "led astray" by the Dean sampaign, only that a lot of people, especially younger people, are very committed to candidates and disappointments hit hard.

[KoKo]

62. The New York Times distorts. I've read that article and it's nothing

more than a distortion cleverly written. The Media Whores are all over Dean this morning and laughing at his supporters. If you choose to believe this about Dean's campaign, then go ahead. I'm disappointed that you would post this and be so gleeful. Watching what's going on by both Democrats and Repuglicans to drive Dean an his supporters out of the party is disheartening.

I can't imagine another DU'er supporting this kind of behavior and especially one who supports Kucinich whom I also support. I think this is sad that we are fighting one another. But, so be it. I really didn't want to reply to this post but if we all have to get into mudsling then I guess I'll have to join the fray I tried to stay out of here.

:-(

[DemBones DemBones]

80. Is the Salon article also "a distortion"?

TV news says Dean's broke, can't pay his staff without going into debt. Is that a distortion, too? Are you just totally denying that this money problem exists?

I don't feel gleeful, I feel sad that the Dean campaign has not done a better job of managing the money that you and his other supporters donated.

[KoKo]

85. I gave to Kucinich, also. I'm not gleeful over any Candidates problems,

when we know what the whore media thinks of any Dem Candidate.

[Cheswick2.0]

35. the person most dead and burried would be DK

:7

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Actually, DK's got about $10 million and will stay in

through the convention. No need to worry!

[jsw_81]

40. But Kucinich is not and never was a serious candidate

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. He's Won As Many Contested Primaries And Caucuses As Howard Dean

NT

[jenk]

44. same thing can be said about the honorable reverand and loony lyndon

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Then He's In August Company

NT

[jsw_81]

47. And John Edwards

[MMT]

64. We hear you say that over and over again

but your repetition doesn't make it so. Sorry.

[LWolf]

58. No wonder Dean fired him.

As a fiscal conservative, this has to be an issue for him.

I thought the Dean campaign was really well organized; but I guess it doesn't matter how well the grass' roots organize if the top is mismanaged.

Dean supporters, do you think Roy Neel will fix the situation?

[progressivebydesign]

98. In answer to your question about Neel. Yes..

I do think he'll be a great help. Unfortunately, as much as we're all idealists, especially the Dean supporters, there comes a time when you realize you can't compete in the establishment elections without some adherence to the establishment game book. There are growing pains in many grassroots campaigns, movements, organizations. The reality that America doesn't allow much coloring outside the lines... Sierra Club has lobbyists, Planned Parenthood has telemarketers and executives... You just can't compete, regardless of the purity of your message, and your grassroots support, unless you become part of the system you may despise.

With Neel, comes some great contacts, perhaps some new money. And, even the name recognition of Al Gore being in on this. I don't want to know the name of the Campaign Manager. They should be invisible. They should run the campaign quietly, smoothly, and seamlessly. Like candidates, there are some CMs that are not presidential material. It's a big leap into the majors. I think Neel will provide that structure and discipline necessary. I'm okay with it.

[rucky]

104. they're better off without a campaign manager

decentralize & let the state groups run things w/ budget

[ShaneGR]

67. There are 15,000 pieces of Dean lit at our county Dem HQ

Ohio, the Dean camp just sent them ubsolicited.

[John_H]

69. To hell w/ the money and Trippi. It's decision time for Dean supporters.

Once the bandwagon grinds to a halt, will you just hop down and say, "wow, that was cool" and move on to another "cause," or will you be a serious American, fighting to remove the worst president in the history of the country.

[Cassandra]

77. That's insulting

Dean supporters are "serious Americans" and our cause is removing * from the WH. I really don't care for your assumption that all Dean supporters are flaky college kids. I'm headed toward fifty and I've been a registered VOTING Democrat for over 30 years. What have you been doing during that time?

[John_H]

79. Sorry you're insulted--please check out the poll thread in which

A third of Dean's DU supporters who responded apparently intend to switch from supporting a centrist, insider Democrat like Dean to enabling chimp with a third party vote.

And sorry, but if you take a look at Dean's own demographic estimates, the overwhelming majority of Dean's campaign activists are college kids, flaky or not.

[napi21]

81. I question the demographics

I've supported Dean for a long time, so has my husband! We are both in our 60's! When we go to the meet-up's, most of the prople there are 40, 50 or over. I think it's great that a lot of the supporters that went on the road with Howard are college kids, they have the time and the energy to do that, but I question the demographic numbers. Listed to c-span sometime, most of those callers aren't college age either.

Go Howard. I just confirmed attending the meetup next Wed.!

[Cassandra]

83. You're playing with stats

The majority of "activists" are college kids but "supporters" is a different word. Although a third of Dean supporters on DU might vote third party (God forbid) that's here, not Dean supporters in general. I think emotions are high right now and Dean (and other) supporters are getting tired of the many threads in the last day insisting they pledge their loyalty to another candidate immediately. I think Super Tuesday would be a good time to get really real about this question.

[Ramsey]

107. That's BS

The majority of Dean's supporters are NOT college kids. It's just that a majority of college kids (who are supporting anybody) support Dean.

[bobbyboucher]

105. I like your guy Clark too,

but he is one hell of alot further behind than Dean. I'd like to see all of them hang in for quite some time.

[Maddy McCall]

73. Yes...and I hope our party can recover from his

verbal missteps.

[Lefta Dissenter]

82. I am not a Dean supporter by any means

and I don't have time to read all the replies, but I was just recalling how, all those many years ago, I called my dad and said, "Damn, Clinton is FINISHED" when the whole Genifer Flowers (or whichever woman it was) episode erupted.

I learned a few lessons from that:

-my political saavy sucks
-hang in there, you never know what's around the corner, and if you believe in someone, don't give up, no matter WHAT the 'pundits' tell you
-I need a new crystal ball

[creativelcro]

86. Well said...

[DemBones DemBones]

88. Josh Marshall wrote about this at TPM.

and he's thinking the same things I was thinking when I read the salon and NYT articles. Namely, WTF, Trippi out and a Washington insider in? Isn't this, well, just *strange*?

"In the context of Dean's campaign, Trippi is certainly not just a campaign manager. He was at least one of the chief architects of this path-breaking campaign model that we've been hearing so much about and talking so much about for months.

But the appointment of Neel is even weirder than the canning of Trippi.

I'm no purist in political matters, but isn't Neel a Washington lobbyist? An insiders' insider? I don't think that makes him a bad guy. But isn't it a little out of tune with the campaign Dean's been running?

Something very weird happened here.

All I can figure is that this all happened with no warning whatsoever. Gore is now in the mix. And in need of someone immediately they went to Neel. Is the next DC Meet-Up at The Monocle?"


I looked up The Monocle:

"The Monocle has long been a favorite spot of Capitol Hill people watchers. The walls are decorated with pictures of some of the political celebrities that have paid their visits. It is not uncommon to see lobbyists and powerful staffers-- and the occasional member-- dining on the seafood or steaks, though most of the smoke-filled room wheeling and dealing takes place in the private rooms upstairs, or on weekends, when the whole restaurant is rented out for fundraisers or private parties."

[progressivebydesign]

100. I don't think the Neel thing is wierd.

As a Dean supporter, who is tired of establishment candidates (whatever they are?), I can see that this is the only way for Dean to go. THere comes a point when you cannot seriously compete in the big leagues without becoming one of them at some point. Kucinich has great ideals and ideas.. but if his campaign were to take off.. he'd be scrambling to find the structure it takes to get to the nomination. Our politcal system is flawed, and it's skewed toward the establishment candidates. Unfortunately, you cannot compete if you don't become one of them eventually.

I don't think anything of him because he is a lobbyist. Frankly, Clark was a lobbyist until October, 2003. Hell.. Planned Parenthood employs lobbyists, as does my local tourist board. It's a job, not personality trait. It's what you DO with your lobbying that matters.

Trippi was asked to step down. There was a lot of mis-management in the campaign. Dean trusted that the campaign was being run right. Trippi made more than a few million with his ad agency agreement.. as he (and his ad agency biz partner, also Dean's media advisor) advised Dean how much to spend on ads (conflict of interest), and now Dean is broke. I'd fire him too..

[diamondsoul]

101. I'm at a loss about what has happened

in the Dean campaign, but just....WOW!

As much as I don't want Howard Dean to be the next President, this just- sickens me in many ways.

I have a great deal of compassion for Governor Dean. He's been through some nasty little sh*t-storms lately and the majority of them have been undeserved on his part.

My heart goes out to all Dean supporters right now. I firmly believe Governor Dean IS "electable" but coming from me that may not mean much since I also believe Dennis Kucinich is "electable".:evilgrin:

Listen, you guys are an amazing bunch of people. I cannot forget the night of the NH Primaries when Dean supporters lined up to sign my Kucinich ballot petitions. I cannot forget poking my head in to the DFA forums to counter some rather nasty attacks on my character, and having not a single negative comment from Dean supporters towards me- one guy did make a comment about Kucinich, but I thought it was funny, so what the heck. LOL

I cannot forget that some of the people who have encouraged me not to give up on my efforts for Kucinich have bee personally Dean supporters. I also cannot forget that many of you genuinely appreciate the presence of Dennis Kucinich in this race.

So anyway, after all this babbling, my point is I'm posting to return the kindness. Don't give up if this is the man who speaks for you. Support him until he tells you he's finished and never waver in that IF he is your voice in this race. The OP I believe to be sincere concern for people whose hopes and wishes are wounded right now, as is this post. Don't quit, don't switch, support YOUR VOICE no matter who speaks for YOU! That, my friends is the only way we can win.

[bread_and_roses]

95. Early days yet...

...not as early as before Iowa and NH, but still early. I find Dean objectionable on many grounds and don't support him at all; nonetheless, in fairness, he and most especially his supporters have benefited this Primary.

If I were a Dean supporter, I would not even consider giving up yet. Things change very fast in campaigns.

[genius]

103. I hope he's out of the running. I would want the U.S. economy managed

that way. So that's fiscally conservative.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

109. I am locking this thread....

It has become a flame fest.

Thanks,

DU Moderator