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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 01:47 PM
Original message
On the death penalty for Saddam
While I'm not opposed to the death penalty when there is incontrovertible evidence and a voluntary confession, I disagree that we should put political leaders to death no matter how heinous the crime or how much we hate them.

If they know that they will inevitably be executed, there is NO REASON ever for them to cooperate with information that could be very important to the survivors of their regimes - that's the first thing, and the other one is the precedent.

So George Bush, be prepared that in some future time, like Pinochet, you may lose your presidential immunity and your freedom. Some day you may yourself face torture and the death penalty under a similar war crimes tribunal, and as much as that thought gives me a grim inhuman joy, I would on principle also be opposed to that, regardless of your level of guilt through either wilfull evil or just plain incompetence.

Over 2000 of the idealistic, dutiful children of this nation have died for your lies, most of them in agony and horror that most of us have a hard time imagining. Tens of thousands more have been injured in their bodies, and their souls, to return to live here with hollow eyes, bitterness, and often in poverty from medical bills that you won't pay.

Countless tens of thousands of civilians, families, children, bystanders and participants in the reconstruction of their country have been murdered by our policies and soldiers and paid mercenaries in Iraq. You have actually destabilized the region and endangered not just Americans abroad but westerners in every country all over this tiny planet. You have caused a thousandfold increase in al qaeda enrollment, and you have made America a lightning rod for misguided extremists to focus their hatred upon, and so the future deaths of Americans and humans the world over rests on your shoulders too. You are utterly indistinguishable from the notable political "monsters" of history you claim to despise, that you are busy trying to "smoke out" of their hidey holes.

You claim to deliver "democracy" when all that we can possibly deliver to an islamic country, EVER, is an islamic republic where the sharia and fatwa trumps human civil rights and these vaunted precious "freedoms" at the pronouncement of any mullah at any time anywhere.

You sent our children to die to create an islamic republic that guarantees NO CIVIL RIGHTS to anyone, voted in through a democratic process, and you call that a democracy.

I have a question for you Condoleeza Rice, for you George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and crew. I have a question for each of you disgusting humans who carry a W sticker on their car or claim support for this president and for this war:

Would you give your life for this war? Would you, answer yes or no, GIVE YOUR FUCKING LIFE FOR THIS WAR! Would you step in front of a bullet in Iraq to save an American soldier? Would you step in front of a bullet to save an Iraqi civilian?

You fucking cowards.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. nice rant ...
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 02:01 PM by welshTerrier2
i'm totally opposed to the death penalty in all cases ... no exceptions ..

but if i were ever to make an exception, you made a most articulate case against bush and his minions ...

Saddam, bush and the whole lot of them should spend the rest of their lives in prison producing whatever little requital they could provide from there to those to whom they did so much harm ... perhaps some would see their executions as the best compensation; still, i oppose it ...

btw, 100% of their estates should be taken away in addition to a prison sentence ... let their stolen wealth contribute to those who suffered the most ...
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. it takes all of us
I'm actually very ambivalent on the DP anyway - I actually believe in in < life sentence requires solid measurable effort at social rehabilitation, until they're dead of old age or out in society again.

On the flip side, I'm against warehousing incorrigible, confessed murderers, and even more against the prison system as it exists today. If I can believe that a licensed authority should be able to help a critically ill person die with dignity, I can certainly countenance that the state should be able to help an incorrigible, recidivist criminal die with dignity, at least in theory.

Now, the criteria for applying the DP is utterly absurd as it stands today. Robbing a bank, driving a getaway car, kidnapping, crimes that did not result in death should never under any circumstances be under consideration. Accepting circumstantial evidence in a DP case, coerced confessions, and dozens of appeals over decades is also humanly wrong.

Like I said, I'm ambivalent, but I'm willing to think it through rather than just say it's too much bother. None of the above means that I even remotely LIKE the idea - it is appalling either way, that we have people who are so damaged that taking human life is no different than cutting someone off in traffic, or that we have people who can flip the switch in the name of justice in the morning and be standing next to you in the grocery line in the afternoon.

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Genocide. In the case of repeated & structural murder. I'm against
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 02:59 PM by applegrove
the death penalty per se - but i will not lift a finger to fight for the life of someone who committed genocide. Just as I am against war if it is aggressive and would be for war if it stopped genocide or aggressive wars.

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