A rejoinder for the "but if it were a Christian, (insert victim statement

[Skidmore]

here). How many times have we heard the religious right whine that they are being persecuted--not being allowed to practice their religion? What about a continual and consistent reply from the rest of us--"Who is preventing you from practicing your religion? I'm certainly not stopping you from going to church and worshipping. I just don't want to practice your religion and that's my right." This could come from the wide range of believers and nonbelievers alike who do not support the RR's agenda.

[libhill]

1. Their idea

of persecution is not having the right or the authority to force their beliefs down the throats of the rest of us. Who was it who coined the term "Christian Taliban"?

[Hekate]

4. Molly Ivins calls them Talibaptists

The claim of "persecution" is so damn phony it makes me gag.

The one incident that made me laugh, though, was the response to the movie "Saved," about a bunch of kids attending a Christian high school. Boy tells his girlfriend he thinks he's gay, she decides there's only one way to save him from this perversion, and the rest is a touchingly funny story. My husband and I actually liked it a lot. Values? It has lots of 'em, actually. And the two guys who made the film grew up in that milieu.

There was a bit of a tempest in a teapot from the ultra-fundies, one of whom wrote to the Los Angeles Times to plaintively demand "what other religious group would people feel free to make fun of?" When I read that gem I got a visual image of a zillion L.A. Jews spritzing their morning coffee onto the Letters page as they recalled generations of Jewish Mother jokes.

I wish I could think of a snappy answer to the "persecution" meme. The best I can come up with is: "Your church hasn't been closed down, has it? Your fishie is still on the back of your car, isn't it? Your kid still prays silently before tests, doesn't he? So where exactly is the suffering?"

Hekate

[libhill]

7. Their "suffering"

consists of the knowledge that there are atheists, agnostics, and members of other religious faiths, who are still allowed to think for themselves. Oh, the horror!

[FreedomAngel82]

19. Exactly

I'm Christian and have never had any form of persecution. Of course because I'm against Bush and tell the truth about him I get called some things, but that doesn't have to do with my religion. I can still go to church and have my Bible in my house and all that. People here take everything for granted. If they want real persecution try reading about the apostles and what they went through and Jesus Christ himself. Now that is persecution. Being told you can't have the Ten Commandments in court is not persecution. It really is disgusting and I can't stand it! Then when someone goes out and says they're being persecuted and whatnot and affiliate themselves with that they're caught being hypocritical like having an affair or something. That happened here in Tn. There was this guy who was a main person involved in this marriage amendment act and the day later he was divorcing his wife for having an affair with an aide who was younger. The wife was saying how gay people aren't ruining marriages but divorce is.

[wli]

2. they sure as heck don't like people "practicing" atheism

Hell, Poppy Bush said I shouldn't even be allowed to be a citizen!

I'm sure to be cremated alive in one of Bushler's concentration camps.

[libhill]

3. I'm agnostic myself

but, wouldn't it be some kinda poetic justice if all this Christianity stuff were true, and these sycophant bastards found out that their boy Shrub was the Anti-Christ?

[shaniqua6392]

8. I am a christian......

I go to church every Sunday and my children attend the school there also. Last fall, before the election, I got a good glimpse of how Bush and Co. got people to vote for them. I got some strange looks when I showed up at parent-teacher conferences with my Kerry button on my sweater!!! But, I did not care. They totally believe that Bush is a Christian. They blindly believed it just because he said so. They think the Republican Party will do something about abortion. Abortions go up any time there is a Repub in office. Duh!! I almost got in a fist fight with one of the members the day after the election. I was so mad that she thought those people were pro-life. I think they are satanic and I have felt that way since they stole the election in 2000. I hate them for hijacking Jesus to get them more power and money. I asked her how a person is pro-life and yet condones an unjust illegal war in which our soldiers were dying, being injured, and innocent people in Iraq who are being killed. She said, "because of 9-11". WHAT???? I told her she watched too much FAUX NEWS. That shut her up. As she was walking away I told her to remember this conversation because there will come a day when she regrets voting for and defending that moron. But here is the good part...My daughter is in 7th grade and before the election, the whole school had a mock election to decide between the candidates. Only it was not done by writing down your choice anonymously....She had to go up to her teacher (who is also the principal), and say who she wanted out loud in front of the class. Despite that pressure...she said "KERRY". Every other kid said "BUSH". She was so proud of herself that day and I was proud of her, too. She told me that she thinks Jesus was a Democrat because they seem to believe in helping people who are poor and that they are accepting of everyone regardless of what they believed. Our family talks of politics on a daily basis. I have taught my children that we are Christians, but we are also Americans. Two separate things in my mind. Your vote as an American affects all people in your country. The two should be separate and distinct. You are voting for people who are so different in their beliefs that you have to make the decision that will be best for your country, not your church. That is the difference between us and those who vote for someone because they say they are Christian. Actions speak louder than words. I am not sure you can be a politician and a Christian at the same time. Maybe there are a few, but I do not see how it is possible...without having to repent every five minutes!!!! Sorry to ramble on so, but I just wanted to let people know that not all believers in Christ are believers in Bush. All I can do is teach this to my children and keep talking to people in my church and hope that someday they see the truth. What a clever ploy this is....Satan HAS hijacked Jesus and his followers by using these evil people in our government to make people die and suffer in our country and to cause such hatred between christians/muslims, etc. around the globe. If you stand back and observe what is happening in the world today, you can clearly see that Satan has his hand in this mess and GWB and Co. are helping him. God help us all.

[libhill]

9. And, if I'm not mistaken

I think I read some where that people will be deceived into thinking that the Anti-Christ is actually a good guy, as many, (but not all, as you pointed out) Christian's seem to think that Bush is Mr. Marvelous - does make you wonder ---

[libhill]

11. By the way

welcome to D.U. :)

[FreedomAngel82]

20. I know how you feel

All the kids my age at my church except my brother and I are very pro-Bush. I don't get it myself. And yes the republicans cause abortions and their supporters don't realize it. The main reason's why women have abortions is because of income (number two according to Planned Parenthood). I don't think the republicans will ever get rid of Roe V Wade because what else will they have to run on? And if people actually read their Bible's they would know what Jesus Christ was really about. He didn't talk about abortion, gay's etc. Bush hides behind religion so he can do his horrible acts. He only shows his "faith" when it will benefit him like the election or when his poll numbers are down and people aren't supporting what he wants (see "Justice Sunday"). At my church I was the only person who was a very proud Kerry supporter. I had a Kerry/Edwards pin on my purse and bumper sticker on my car. :D One of my friends asked me who I was voting for and I proudly said "John Kerry" and she said he was a flipflopper and I defended Kerry and she was quiet after that. Good for your daughter!

[Hekate]

21. Welcome to DU, Shaniqua!

:hi:

Hekate

[Vickers]

5. "Has your church been closed by the government?"

No?

Then SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[Skidmore]

6. Amen.

[BobbyinPortland]

10. Excellent post shaniqua6392

I think what man has done to God is the biggest abomination ever.

I don't really believe in the bible, too many versions, too many edits and too many men putting their ideas in it instead of God's ideas.

I do believe in a higher power. I don't believe He/She is watching, condemning, taking names, or whatever, but a higher power, yes, I definitley believe that. I'm not going to tell you that you can't believe what you believe or even the rethugnicans what they can and can't believe. I just wish everyone else felt the same.

When are people going to get it? When are they going to learn that if there is ever such a thing a being as the "anti-Christ" he or she's going to be quoting bible verse after bible verse, claiming to be the best man or woman of God that's ever exsisted and then he/she is going to fuck them all and they'll deserve it.

My question to everyone. Why are some people so easily led? Why are they so against questioning?

I do not get it.

[shaniqua6392]

14. Which sounds easier?

Being a person who constantly questions everything, discusses what is going on, gets in heated discussions, peruses forums constantly, reads every book, article, or opinion available on a daily basis, etc. like we do....
or
Being a person who never questions or researches government or society. This person just casts their vote and walks away never thinking about it for another moment, if they vote at all....

They are naive, lazy, selfish, and maybe even un-american. It is stressful being like us. Knowing the truth brings out emotions like anger, hatred, and even fear for me. Maybe they just like to live in a bubble, so to speak. I know a lot of people who do not even vote at all. They never think about politics ever. They do have more peace in their lives than I do. But, I think they will have to pay a dear price for it at some time. My sister is a lesbian and she and her girlfriend do not even vote or anything. I tell her: How can you not try to protect your rights from these people who do not want you to have any? I constantly work on her and she is considering casting a ballot in 2006. I have convinced others to begin paying more attention and using their power as a citizen of this country by voting. The people in Washington are supposed to work for us. People forget that. We are their boss. But, if we do not pay attention and hold them accountable they will corrupt our society. They think it will not make any difference anyway, but they are wrong. We hold the power. There are millions of people who never even vote. These are the people we need to change. Convince them with a strong message of love and acceptance that they do matter and their votes matter. I know people who have never voted once and I get the feeling they are afraid of it. They actually do not know HOW to vote because they have never done it. I know it sounds crazy, but it is true. I have plenty of ideas for the DNC.....public service announcements promoting the Democratic Party and showing people HOW to vote in elections.....how to register....what kind of machines there are...etc. I know it sounds crazy, but I have found this to be a real fear among those people I have encountered who have never voted. Not that they would admit it because it sounds crazy. There are millions of people out there who could be led to vote so that the elections would not be so close that fraud can be committed on voting machines...I am getting off on another tangent...sorry. See how stressful this is?? Maybe if we could get more people to be like us, it would take some of the burden off and we could relax and go fishing or something instead of tapping away violently on our keyboards ranting and raving like I just did..Ha Ha..IN A PERFECT WORLD...but until then...thanks for letting me rant.

[Redleg]

23. Good point.

I am sick to my fuckin' gullet about lib'rels kickin' god out of schools. I thought God was omnipresent.

[JohnnyBoots]

12. It's so tough being a white suburban Christian these days......

[BobbyinPortland]

18. Walden Books has a section called "Christian Fiction".

I asked the clerk today if that was an oxymoron or just redundant? He laughed.

What was really flawless was the look on the little old lady standing next to me who didn't seemed pleased at all.

[xchrom]

13. indeed.

one of the biggest lies of the culture war.

keep your religion off of my life.

THAT is my right.

[JohnnyBoots]

24. and out of our government too!

[McCamy Taylor]

15. ENVY--a deadly sin, these so called Christian victims suffer from.

They envy the people who get to love the partner of their choice without guilt.

They envy the people who get to question their abusive parents authority without risk of burning in Hell for all eternity.

They envy the kids who were told "I love you for who you are" rather than "Be good and stop crying and God will love you" when the were growing up.


This ENVY gnaws at their guts. It makes them squirm. They look at the joy of those around them and see it as some kind of slap in the face---a personal attack. They feel that they have been victimized. Very often they have, by their own families, but they cant admit that to themselves. So, like many people in the thralls of ENVY, they blame the people whom they envy. They claim that they are the victims of discrimination or mockery. They wallow in their martyrdom.

This is the root of much of the so called "discrimination" against white, suburban Christians in America. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Reminds me of a bunch of teenagers.


PS I would not be at all surprised if the Nazis in Germany did not exploit feelings like these when they built their empire. After WWI, Germany lost its identity, but the Jewish people must have seemed very unified, cohesive, even happy in comparison.

[libhill]

16. Why separate the Jews from their nation?

These people were Germans, as German as anybody else. Why speak of the Jews as though they were somehow a separate group? There were German Jews the in the trenches of W.W. 1, along side their Christian counterparts. The Jews were not responsible for the calamity that befell Germany after Versailles. It was the fault of the Kaiser and the militarists.

[PurityOfEssence]

17. It's easy: their religion demands the right to dominate everyone else

If you hinder them in any way, they're being persecuted.

I had an evangelist at the door who, when rebuffed by me, started talking to my very young child. When I stopped her, it was as if I'd denied her an undeniable right. Imagine if I'd tried to talk some reality into her young-un; she'd have been livid.

Christianity is anti-democratic. It is based upon a demand for aristocratic impunity, and doesn't even come close to playing fair.

There are worse religions (Islam being one) but Christianity is a vigorous and rapacious mindset bent on world domination. It shouldn't be viewed as "good", it should be viewed as, at best, somewhat neutral. At its worst, it should be viewed as conquest-driven exclusivity that presumes such special status that not only should it be granted special dispensation for intrusion, it should be given immunity and the veritable keys to the city. To not accept the extreme moral superiority of this guess and not willingly allow constant intrusion is somehow bigotry against the "good". It's so deeply wrong that only an asshole would dispute it.

Those who believe in the teachings of that renegade are often deeply sincere and would never think of demanding unquestioned control, but the institutions have muddied the waters. He seems to have been a good man, but no more than that. If he hadn't messed with Religion Incorporated by throwing over the money-changers tables, he'd have lived to a ripe old age. The enemy is ALWAYS established belief systems. Spirituality isn't the problem, it's those who demand their words to mean more than others and dissent to not even be allowed to exist.

We're headed down a path of theocracy. Already, one can't have a political voice unless he/she believes in some big supernatural Witchy-Man. The oncoming battles between the left and right will be fought by believers, and if the right gets to seize the religious ground, THEY'LL WIN. So we now will have moral and upright believers from the left and center vying for control. Whether they win or lose, we'll have a country where it's even more necessary than now for one to have religion. Humanity loses: cocksure certainty wins out over humble admission of one's limitations. The future looks grim. Those who believe are unreachable by logic and empirical observation.

To those believers who still harbor a decent sense of the possibility of their being mistaken, I salute you. To those who know everything about the universe, I can only hope enough of you will side with humanity against privilege, but even so, you're part of the problem.

[McCamy Taylor]

22. That's not Christianity which the Religious Right espouses.

The Catholic Church is the Roman Empire in disguise, and a lot of Protestant Sects are nothing but Viking Conquerors in Sheeps Clothing.

To lump them with the Gnostics or the Quakers is a mistakes, just as saying that Al Qaeda is the same as the Sufis.