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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:36 AM
Original message
Why so little discussion on CAFTA?
I'm hoping it's because most people reacted the same way I did...resignation. Totally depressed about it and figured it would pass so it's not something I particularly enjoy focusing on.
Is that it or are people really not that concerned about it?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. I really doubt that it's because people aren't that concerned.
At least I hope not...
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. cafta
I have not read up too much on it

But anything that Bush and Cheney have to go go Congress
and beg for their votes, or blackmail them, sounds like
something that is not good for America
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Do read some...
the job market in this country is about to start sliding downhill even faster.
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. cafta
What are the points against it?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Read here:
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. There has been talk about it here
But people are so busy fighting over who is running in 08 or putting up yet more polls that CAFTA threads tended to get crowded out.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yes, I know...I've seen it
But it PASSED yesterday. I would've expected to see talk of nothing else. And yet, the few threads about it drop with few replies.
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Not only did it pass
but it did so by 2 votes in a midnight vote. It appears as if our elected representatives had no interest in letting us observe the vote on CSPAN....
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. And the Chair slammed down the gavel before the last 2 reps voted.
As I posted before...

The American people were given the Congressional finger yesterday courtesy of Bush/Cheney's strong-arm Mafia-like tactics. This wasn't an attack against Democrats, not an attack against Republicans, but an attack against all Americans... and an attack against human rights.

Yeah, Georgie, you've got lots of muscle right now, and you're flexing it, but, you know what? Eventually a bully is always seen for what he is, and those who've been duped walk away from him. Georgie, the eyes of America are opening, and many of your formerly conned followers are beginning to see your true ugliness.

You can open up concentration camps right now, throw us all in them, but you still won't win... you will never conquer our spirits.

FUCK YOU GEORGE W BUSH. I SPIT ON YOU.




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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. There was lots of outrage last night and a whole bunch of theads
when it passed by two votes. A lot of us didn't say much, but we watched the debate or, in my case, watched the reporting by DUers on several threads. By 9:00 PT, the top threads were CAFTA related.

I agree that there should be more discussion today. Part of the issue is that those who kept the vigil last night are tired. Part of it is the sheer disgust at our own 15 turncoat Dems, any two of whom could have sunk this rotten bill. But a big part of it is, I think, that people simply don't understand CAFTA and its consequences are not easy to predict. People tend to get het up on issues that affect their day to day lives, and these large trade agreements seem very far out of the realm of daily life. The irony is that these agreements will actually SHAPE our lives as workers over the next century.

If you had a primer on CAFTA--something easy to digest--maybe people would feel more able to comment.
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sunwyn Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. "Why so little discussion on CAFTA?"
This is my first post....personally, I am OUTRAGED


jANET
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Welcome to DU, sunwyn!!
Outraged here, too. :hi:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Welcome to DU!
:hi:

:bounce:
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sunwyn Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Welcome to DU
Thanks for the welcome....I spent most of my workday informing those I work with (at a manufacturing warehouse) about CAFTA and what it might mean for the US. The apathy has made me more furious. What the hell is wrong with people?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. It's easier to live in your own reality.
People seem to not *want* to care, because that means they might have to actually *do* something. It's much easier to just go back to sleep... back to living in bush's reality. If one is determined to be lazy - both physically and intellectually - there's little anyone else can do to change them.

Nader may have been right that it'll take a majority of such lazy Americans being *personally* affected by these policies before they'll stop being such dozy morans.

Hope hanging out here helps you to handle the apathy in the "real world"...I know it's helped me to do so. :)
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sunwyn Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. It's easier to live in your own reality
It has helped me tremendously to find there are some folks who give sh*t. I'm looking forward to my Sunday off so I can read this site. It is now my homepage... :)
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Warning - this site is
addictive... I spend waaaay too much time here but it is where I get all my news.......Well, here & Jon Stewart.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. Hi sunwyn!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Well, we were up til the vote was done last night
There were a lot of threads while it was going on. Anyone who didn't have it on TV could follow the vote and there was plenty of commentary as well. It was pretty intense.

Now, however, it's a done deal. The Democrats who voted for it will be hearing more about it from DUers and likeminded people. The Republicans who voted for it are just acting like Republicans act. They're the enemy of working people everywhere, so they're doing their thing.
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Lisaben2619 Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. Because many Democrats here must be ashamed.
This could have beem stopped in the Senate by the Dems.

Punish them!!!!
http://workinglife.typepad.com/daily_blog/2005/07/punis...
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
9. CAFTA reaction?
Well for starters, 2400 pages of law is a challenge to comprehension. If you are a corporate transnational citizen, and have assets spread around in offshore havens and seek to privatize assets being mismanaged by national governments, its swell!

With fingergate raging, I can understand why it seems like CAFTA is currently being ignored, but the whole Sirota threads are related, since he's calling out the corporate neolibs who are diluting the democratic message's potency by acting like Zell Miller.

Like Nafta, CAFTA undermines national sovereignty and will allow for some pretty heinous trans-national legal maneuvers that once ratified by the member states, will compel local towns and states to comply with the decisions of CAFTA courts in conflicts between local governments and private investment capital.

As an aside, I am beginning to think that a winning congressional strategy leading up to 2006 would be to engage in the most parliamentary maneuvers possible including but not limited to filibustering, to try and prevent as much legislative action that Republicans could get passed.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. For me resignation as well.
I have resigned myself to the fact the facists will pass any legislation that they want. Up next the new and improved permanent Patriot Act.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. I know I am freaking depressed. Until we fix the election system, and
I don't just mean transparency and paper trails but these other overhauls http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm , we won't be able to do squat about policy making.

Let's face it a better election system leads to better officials, and better officials leads to better policies.
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SCDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. Does anyone have a link for the total vote count
Our local dem party is hosting a table and a local summer festival and we plan on having a list of the Repub Reps in our state who voted for CAFTA we thought that would be of interest to swing or undecided voters.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. Check GD - lots of discssions - including a potential PROBLEM w/the vote
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
21. new thread this morning
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
22. There's be plenty of discussion on CAFTA..\nt
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
23. Well, at the moment
There ain't a lot we can do - it's passed Congress, and Bushie will sign it.

What we need to do is bank this for the 2006 midterms. CAFTA has virtually ZERO support in this country for those who aren't bankers, economists or CEOs.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. How do we make this an issue?
Particularly considering the Republican defections on it paired with the Democrats who voted yes? (the Senate is the worst...there are a number of high profile, supposedly progressive senators who voted for this and there's no way the power-brokers are going to endanger them by making an issue of CAFTA).
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. What we need to do is....
...work on a grassroots "game plan" or "blueprint" for restructuring it, so that the next Democratic president can be successful in actually changing the parts of it that hurt people.

That involves going to bat for Democratic Senate candidates in PA, MO, MT, and elsewhere (including Governors) in the 2006 midterms....while keeping the discussion alive about 2008 the entire time, so that the DLC doesn't lay all the groundwork to guarantee the nomination to a bad candidate at the top of the ticket by the time it's too late.
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Rambis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. Like everything else it is so Heinous...
I can't react anymore it is just another turd in the mountain of turds this administration lets fly from Olympus.
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GracieM Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
32. Get's lost among the DLC threads...
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
33. Good question
Now that it passed, it seems a hot topic - the thread in LBN announcing the results from the midnight vote is still on the first page of the forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I started a few threads about it earlier in various forums but it seems most people didn't think it was a priority, what with Rove/Roberts/Other stuff...

I really thought we had a chance of beating it. All the arm-twisting at the last second really pissed me off.

:shrug:
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dean_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
34. Well, for starters...
it's been buried in the back of my local newspaper for the past two weeks.

But I think that a lot of it has to do with it being in some respects a pretty difficult and exhausting topic to wade through. Of course, the neoliberal pro-CAFTA economists seem determined to make the issue sound as convoluted as possible. I guess widespread public ignorance means nobody will know what they're up to.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
35. I've gotten some good info about the evils of CAFTA
from Pax Christi and Catholics for Faithful Citizenship.

For example:

The U.S. Bishops, Latin American Bishops, faith-based NGOs and religious communities in the U.S. and Central America have urged Congress, and all Catholics, to evaluate CAFTA with moral criteria. That means looking at ways CAFTA will place in jeopardy Central Americas rural farmers, who are already among the most poor globally; looking at how CAFTA threatens to destroy access to affordable generic medicines; how it fails to ensure the rights of workers; and how it will affect jobs in the U.S., particularly in the agriculture and labor sector. Looking at CAFTA from a moral criteria also requires us to examine why those most supportive of this trade agreement have failed to take into consideration the input from civil society in Central America.


Given this lens by which our Catholic faith calls us to look at trade agreements like CAFTA, it is clear that CAFTA is a life issue. And given this lens, it is clear that support for CAFTA in its current form is inconsistent with the social teachings of our Church, and with efforts to build a culture of life.

(above from Pax Christi)


CAFTA is a death sentence for people with HIV/AIDS. If passed by Congress, The Central American Free Trade Agreement would make it much harder for the 275,000 HIV-infected people in the region to get access to the medicines they need to live. Thousands of lives are at stake.

From a moral perspective, it is clear that CAFTA fails John Paul IIs test that those who can intervene to safeguard the dignity of the person must do so. Instead, CAFTA intervenes to preserve the profits of pharmaceuticals, at the expense of human life itself.

(above from CFFC)


It's an issue of life and death and the Republicans, and quite a few Dems, showed how little life means to them.
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