Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Declassified Memorandums: Military Fought Administration Torture Orders

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 07:20 AM
Original message
Declassified Memorandums: Military Fought Administration Torture Orders
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 07:23 AM by ignatzmouse
In memorandums released last week in response to a request from Sen. Lindsey Graham of SC, senior military lawyers sustained a fight against implementation of Bush administration orders to use severe interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. See today's NY Times report "Military's Opposition to Harsh Interrogation Is Outlined" http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/28/politics/28abuse.html .

In a March 3, 2003 memorandum, Maj. Gen. Thomas J. Romig wrote that the abusive techniques "will open us up to criticism that the U.S. is a law unto itself."

Other military lawyers objected that the orders would put military officials at risk of war crimes. The "more extreme interrogation techniques, on their face, amount to violations of domestic criminal law," as well as military law, wrote Air Force Major General Jack L. Rives.

Other warnings included the fact that the policy could endanger American service members and that the practices were immoral and "inconsistent with our most fundamental values."

The memorandums remove a spun layer of Bush administration and Justice Dept. denials and offer compelling evidence that the abuse and tortures that have wrecked America's moral standing on human rights was at the urging of this administration. It is time for a full public accounting of those who issued and signed off on torture and signed away the American ideal. If the stacked Congress will not issue a real investigation, if the Justice Dept. is incapable of investigating itself, it is time that this arrogant and criminal endeavor in the name of liberty be front and center of the moral debate as we enter the next election cycle.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Mr. Bush, Stop the Torture now. Not in my name.
Not in the name of America.

You and your Administration are behaving shamefully. Stop now.

Demandingly, SH, an American citizen
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Would these narcissistic, petty, vicious, arrogant, cowardly, criminal
thugs that constitute the bush** administration overrule men who have made the military a lifetime career? You bet your ass they would. If for no other reason than they were too cowardly to serve when it was their time. Yet they think that they are competent and capable to understand war. All george understands is that if your Poppy is a big shot, going AWOL is not a problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CitrusLib Donating Member (748 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, how much info does it take
to bring this administration to justice? They are criminal and evil. I'm so sick to death of the majority of Americans sticking their heads in the sand. Pardon my vent, but my faith in humanity goes up and down in waves and right now I'm riding a trough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
woodsprite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. There is nobody left who is uncorrupt inorder to enforce the justice. n/t
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 08:32 AM by woodsprite
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CitrusLib Donating Member (748 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thanks, I feel better now.
;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dalloway Donating Member (744 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. the answer lies in your own avatar.
The Republicans may dominate, but Conyers is still an official representative of the people of the United States.

My money is on him and Fitzgerald.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. Overload
I think all of America is suffering from "I can't believe these bastards are vile enough to do this" mode.

Perpetual crime all the time has beaten our sense of outrage to a bloody stump.

-85%
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. My republican friend insists they would torture us anyway
"They'd torture us anyway, so who cares if we torture them first?"

He's become disillusioned with the Republican Party, and thinks he needs to find a new one.

I told him he needs to find a political party that's Liberal except for condoning bigotry.

He was shocked that I called him bigoted, but then I ran down a list of some of his prior statements.

So, if anyone knows a political party that believes in individual rights, gay marriage, free enterprise, personal property rights, environmentalism and racism, let me know so I can suggest it to him.

:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. They did have American soldiers in custody, and I haven't
read one story about how they were tortured. Although there was much hue and cry from the right about how just showing video of them was a violation of the Geneva Convention. Of course, this was long before the Abu Ghraib photos came out. I fear any soldiers that got captured now would be in for a very rough time of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Saddam tortured our soldiers. And our soldiers successfully sued him.

But President Bush issued an Executive Order forbidding OUR OWN SOLDIERS from collecting damages.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I was specifically referring to the soldiers captured in 2003.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Well, of course he did...
If our soldiers had collected damages from Saddam, that would
have meant less wealth for Bush/Cheney to share with Halliburton
and their other big business buds.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
6. so much for their lame, "blame the troops" argument
a few sick mavericks, my a*&.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. That argument never sounded right to me.
I understand that people in difficult situations will choose behavior that isn't normal for them, but for it to be so systemic and known memos to be floating around saying it was okay just never made that "let's blame the soldiers" thing work.

I must say though, it makes me feel better about the military that they were against it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. it didn't sound right because it wasn't right.
If there were leaders there saying - don't do that shit. And punishing the first ones who did - it would have ended. But since it was "policy" they were winked at and left to escalate the torture as they became more and more immune to what they were doing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. That's a good analysis.
It reminds me of how I had to deal with things when I taught high school. If you don't catch negative behavior early on, it escalates and then is perceived as normal and okay because no one in authority said it wasn't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Bingo.
A few "bad apples" are responsible for the torture of detainees at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. Unfortunately, the "bad apples" are the President, Vice President, Secretary of Defense and Attorney General of the United States.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld - the unholy three.
Gonzales was there to pat them on the head and tell them they weren't bad people - just concerned leaders.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. Great bumper sticker, if you don't mind your car getting keyed in repuke
country.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Three Bad Apples. (or something like that, I'm sure someone can come up with cleverer wording).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. Shameful
I wonder why it took over two years for this little debate to see the light of day?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
12. It shows that the "Illegal Order" gotcha is PURE KABUKI!
If some part of the senior military command goes along with a fascist administration and its wretched abuses of human rights, then how the hell can anyone punish the cannon fodder for the abuses done under this madministration's policies?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
16. HOW MANY WAR CRIMES and MURDERS
does this administration have to commit for someone to DO SOMETHING about getting them OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE and BEHIND BARS where they belong?!

This is HIDEOUS!

:mad:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
18. A few bad apples?
Yeah, and they are the same criminal bastards that are running this country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Regardless of their independant agendas
on this issue: The Military Leadership is angry. The FBI is angry. The CIA is angry.

Sucks to be surrounded on this one....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. Just watch, we've seen rebellion coming from the ex-CIA that have been
scapegoated for this administration's lies, next up, the military will say they've had enough and start the big payback against Donald Rumsfailed, the Preznit, and Darth Cheney. You push people too far, they eventually push back, hard. He doesn't have the CIA's respect or the military, he's destroyed both, how much longer do you think they'll put up with him. I say, not long. Night of the Long Knives coming up (without the assassination part of course, just political assassination), and this one will be more successful than the one that attempted to bring Hitler down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Bushites already won the public opinion battle over this
I always thought it was marvelous these evil cretins could craft such evil policy right in the White House, and then have 99% of the American Public believe it was a few "bad apple white trash reservist women" that did all the torturing.

If I join up, will GWB like me enough to make me the sole scapegoat for his policy of War Crimes? Where do I sign up? Yippee!

-85%
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Thank you Dems that voted for Gonzales.

Rumsfailed Admitted to Violating Geneva Convention

Rumsfailed admitted in public on TV that when CIA Director Tenet requested that an Iraqi prisoner be sent to a secret Afghan/US Prison that Rumsfailed did so. After four months a DOD Attorney stated that this was an illegal act. Rumsfailed then ordered that this prisoner be sent back to Abu Graihib but the prisoner was purposefully not listed at that location, also an illegal act. Rumsfeld also admitted to signing orders for tougher interogation methods which violated the Geneva Conventions.

Rumfailed has commited at least three violations of the Geneva Convention thereby also violations of The Constitution of the USA. Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfailed and Tenet have not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Rep. Rangle's Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfailed and also proscecute Ex. CIA Tenet.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earthboundmisfit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Yep, Al's "the Real Deal", all right.
REAL abuse, REAL torture, REAL war crimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Night of the Long Knives ...

... was FROM Hitler not AT Hitler. That's the night he had leaders from the Weimar Republic days assassinated along with the original** leaders of the NAZI party.


**Watching the History Channel recently I learned that the Rightwing is partially correct on their "NAZI was Leftist" meme. NAZI started out as an uber-nationalistic, anti-Semetic veterans organization with a Socialist agenda. This shouldn't be too surprising when you look at what Stalin was doing to the Jews at that time. Hitler was drawn to the unber-nationalism and anti-Semetism, but hated the Socialism almost as much as he hated the Jews. So he built up his own personal army (the SS) within the NAZI organization which he used to wipe out the socialists. NAZI socialists and the SA, for all their anti-Semetism, demonstrated none of the murderous tendancies of Hitler and the SS. They were, in fact, working out parlimentary plans with the old republicans against Hitler ignorant of the fact that Hitler had decided to eliminate democracy when the Night of the Long Knives came down.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Yes, but they had tried to assasinate him first no?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
28. So, our Wehrmacht didn't want to follow the Fuehrer's torture orders....
...sounds familiar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Trish1168 Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
29. If they ever release those other pictures/video...
the ball should start rolling. Little boys screaming from being raped and their mothers requesting to die for having to witness it.....well, maybe this would make American's stand up and take notice.

Are we any better than Saddam? What kind of monsters have we become?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
33. silly military lawyers......
their thinking is....quaint. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Oct 17th 2017, 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC