George W. Bush will not always be the enemy.

[elperromagico]

Yes, he's despicable. Yes, he's arrogant. Yes, he's dishonest. Yes, he's surrounded by people who are equally despicable, arrogant, and dishonest.

However - dare I say it? - he will not always be the enemy. Come 20 January 2009, he'll be gone; he'll go back to his "ranch" in Crawford, write his memoirs, and plan his presidential library. Or, if many DUers get their way, he'll be kicked out of office and frog-marched to federal prison.

Either way, he won't be the enemy. He'll be an old man who used to have a great deal of power. Someone else will sit in the Oval Office. That person, not George W. Bush, will make the decisions that affect the course of our country.

It may take decades to undo the damage done by the Bush years; some of the damage might be permanent. We may forever hold a deep rancor in our hearts against George W. Bush; we may hate him for what he's done to our country... but he won't always be the enemy.

George W. Bush is not the big problem. The problem is the ideology he espouses. It's an ideology that his party has espoused for decades and he has perhaps had greater success pushing that ideology than any Republican president before him. I daresay he's even surpassed Reagan in his ability to "sell" the Republican ideology.

There is precious little that Bush has proposed that is new. His proposals - designed to dismantle the social welfare programs of the New Deal and the Great Society, to deprive women of reproductive rights, to deregulate business, to widen the rich-poor gap, to further expand the military-industrial complex, to "liberate" the Middle East, to weaken organized labor, to thin the lines that separate church and state, et cetera ad infinitum - have all been floating about in the minds of Republicans and conservatives for decades.

They are not new ideas; Bush and the Republicans have simply learned to package them in a way that appeals to the uniformed. With an opposition party that has been weakened by defeat after defeat, it is hardly surprising that he has met with a large degree of success.

No, they are not new ideas.

Nor will they be new ideas when they are proposed by Republican candidates who rise up in the next several years. Nor will they be new ideas when young Republicans, inspired not by Ronald Reagan but by George W. Bush, rise up and propose them 20 or 25 years from now.

I fear that we make a grave mistake as a party when we attack the messenger rather than the message.

George W. Bush will not always be the enemy.

His ideas - and the ideas of his party - will always be the enemy.

[snot]

1. luv peanuts! I agree, Bush just a puppet--but

I don't think it's about ideology. The ideologies are just tools or vehicles in service of less intellectual proclivities.

I think conservatives convince themselves of whatever ideology aids their quest to feel safe and in control.

While us liberals love ideas that validate our lust to create, explore and test all purported boundaries and limits. Among other things.

We're now witnessing a war, rather a crisis, between the two tendencies--both of which are probably indispensable to the survival of humankind. We need folks who care about safety and mastery over potential dangers, and we need people who are creative and want to test assumptions and limits.

The ultimate question is, can us creative, independently-minded liberals get our asses and act together sufficiently to recover from the huge advances conservatives have made while we weren't paying enough attention?

[elperromagico]

4. I see your point

but I don't agree that it's not about ideology.

The Republican/conservative ideology hasn't changed much since the Reagan years. Huge chunks of it have been in place since Goldwater and the conservatives took control of the GOP in '64. Most of it was cemented during the Reagan years and the Republican "revolution" of '94.

The talk has changed, yes. The means of presenting the ideas have changed. But the ideas are the same. Republicans realized, after the crushing defeat of Goldwater, that their message had to be couched in more "user-friendly" terms. Thus "law and order," "family values," "personal responsibility," "compassionate conservatism," et cetera.

The conservatives were knocked back a few paces by the victories of Carter and Clinton but they quickly regained their footing. Their leaders became more TV-friendly and folksy. Thus Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush.

The ideology was still there; the presentation of it had changed.

The Republicans do occasionally throw in a new idea but those new ideas are never acted upon. Rather, they are designed to draw in new supporters. Those supporters help them gain more power. That power enables them to push their real, unchanged agenda.

The question for me is this: How do we fight their ideas? The answer - to my eyes at least - is that we fight their ideas not by attacking whoever is presenting them at the moment but, rather, by creating better ideas of our own.

[snot]

5. I agree, insofar as

truth and good ideas tend to prevail over time.

As they say, nature abhors a vacuum. I think our greatest enemy has been our own silence and/or cacaphony. We must provide an intelligible, alternative vision.

I tend to agree with others on DU who say, we need our own talking points. I think that's consistent with your view?

[elperromagico]

8. My view goes beyond simple talking points.

Talking points are a means to an end for Republicans, that end being the forwarding of their long-term agenda.

What is our long-term agenda? What are the Democratic goals that can match the Republican goals in scale and ambition? Where do we want this country to be in 10 years? 20 years? 50 years?

If you can get clear answers to those questions, the talking points write themselves.

[snot]

19. You're quite right. Pls propose? nt

[elperromagico]

21. I had a feeling you'd ask that.

I'll rattle off a few very broad ideas in one area: election reform.

Voting is a right, not a privilege, and should be codified as such. A complete national standard for elections should be established.

Election Day should be a federal holiday.

The Electoral College should be reformed.

Term limits should be established for members of Congress.

Strict campaign finance laws should be passed. A cap should be placed on the amount of money a candidate may raise.

"First in the nation" status in Presidential primaries should be rotated every four years, allowing other states to have a greater say in the primary process.

Maybe that'll give you some idea of what I'm talking about. Bear in mind that these are the ideas of just one person and are not necessarily the stuff of which long term goals are made.

[NewJeffCT]

2. agreed

I try to go out of my way when writing a LTTE to make sure it's about Republicans & their philosphy as a whole and not just Bush.

What happens in 2008 if Republicans actually run somebody that can speak in clear sentences and express their radical ideas in a clear & rational manner? I mean, next to Bush, a Chuck Hagel or Lindsey Graham will look like a rocket scientist... even though I don't think Bush is stupid.

[Pachamama]

3. My Grandparents never forgave their fellow Germans who allowed the Nazis

take away their Jewish neighbors and friends without a protest (and in many cases even those that "turned in" people). My Grandparents ofcourse always thought Hitler was evil and bad, it was however their fellow Germans that had in their opinion "allowed" that Cancer called Nazism to spread over Germany and Europe to be something that they could not forgive.

Interestingly, they were very forgiving people, but they went to their grave never having "forgotten" what actions by those that had "allowed" the cancer to spread.

I guess I have to admit, that I feel in many ways the same way about my fellow Americans who have "allowed" the Bush Co./Neo-con/Corporate Greed Cancer to spread in this country and world. (ie. through voting for them, not caring or speaking out). Who knows where this is all going, but I have very little patience or respect for any person who could have for the last 5 years allowed this Cancer to spread. Although really, its been a cancer that has been around a lot longer, hasn't it?

[elperromagico]

6. We do not forget the damage Bush has done.

Nor should we forget that, when Bush is gone, the ideas that caused that damage will still be around.

I see some people who seem to think that getting rid of Bush will solve the problems. It won't. We may succeed in knocking the Republicans back a few paces but history shows that they always come back... armed with the same ideas they left with.

[DELUSIONAL]

12. History always seems to repeat itself -- Nixon was horrible

RayGun was probably worse than Nixon -- and bush the elder was probably running the whole show for 12 years.

I just knew after seeing all the damage that Nixon did -- the enemy list etc etc. -- someone would come along who would be much much worse.

It is so easy to psychologically manipulate the masses -- bush is really a nothing -- but his handlers have successfully projected multiple images of him tailored to the target audiences.

These handlers were successful in the very false image they created around the RayGun persona -- and they are doing it again with bushie. It is amazing how many of the background players are the same.

They are probably grooming a new guy to take up space in the white house -- and since the bad guys count the vote -- I am not overly optimistic that the bush puppetship reign will be the last.

After hearing the details of the energy bill -- it is clear that the majority of elected GOPigs have no interest in the welfare of the Nation nor are they looking after the welfare of their constituents.

I fell sorry for younger generations -- bushie is stealing from your future.

[Pachamama]

29. This is why I believe that my future grandchildren will be born in Europe

like my parents and grandparents....I believe your absolutely correct, and short of a civil war and revolution in this country, I don't see things every being able to get rid of the Bush Crime Family and their control over our country. And your absolutely correct, they are surely grooming the replacement very carefully already....

[no_hypocrisy]

7. Why? I don't believe neocons will have had enough by 2008.

They've won, they're winning, and they won't compromise. Doesn't sound inducive to letting dems have their turn at bat.

While neocons may not have such a perfect frontman for their con, they will be with us and they will be anything from an annoying challenge to a veritable enemy for the duration.

It's folks like Tom DeLay, Bill Frist, Dennis Hastert, Rick Santorum, etc. who will still be with us (God help us) after * skips into the sunset with Laura and the dogs.

I'm just saying widen your focus.

[elperromagico]

9. I don't know what you're saying that is at odds with what I've said.

[zanne]

27. What did you expect?

The way you titled your post was sure to attract alot of anger. Wasn't that your intention?

[elperromagico]

33. The majority of those who have replied to this thread have not been angry.

Most of the replies have been comments either in agreement with the bulk of what I've said or respectfully stating small disagreements.

If my post attracted a lot of anger, I must have missed it.

Most of the anger seems to be coming exclusively from you. It's tempting to respond in kind but I'll avoid that particular temptation. I'll simply ask you a few questions.

First, a couple of technical questions. Did you read the whole original post? Or did you simply read the "anger-inducing" subject line and immediately leap into the fray?

Second, a few serious questions. When George W. Bush is gone - either through leaving office at the end of his term or through removal from office - what will you do? Will you rest on your laurels and say, "Yes, we've destroyed Bush" or will you carry on fighting?

Do you think that, even if Bush is marched into federal prison, the conservative movement will die? Do you think that the ideology of George W. Bush will go away with him?

To quote another reply of yours, my ASS. That ideology created George W. Bush, not vice versa. It was around before George W. Bush entered politics and it will be around long after he's gone.

One more question: Who will you be fighting in ten years? George W. Bush?

[Disturbed]

11. Four factions of the Repubs

Extreme Conservatives.
Neocons
Fundies
Moderate Repubs

[liberal N proud]

13. You forgot one group - Those that are just too stupid to know what

they are doing.

[elperromagico]

17. That's a considerable part of the Republican voting bloc.

I remember a poll from last year - ye gods, another poll - which showed that a great many Bush supporters had no idea where Bush stood on the issues.

In fact, they often believed that Bush held a position which was the polar opposite of his actual position. Kerry supporters, though occasionally ignorant of their candidate's positions, were generally far more knowledgable.

I don't think there's much doubt that ignorance helps the Republicans.

[bonzotex]

25. true, but....

Have these people bought into the con job of the Republicans because the conservative message is so compelling and well presented?

I don't think so. I think the Democratic Party and Progressives in general have failed to present a clear compelling alternative.

There are lots of ignorant people, but mostly people just don't pay attention to the big picture because they are just trying to live their lives. A lot of these "ignorant" people used to vote Democratic. Don't write them off as a lost cause. Make politics relevant to their daily lives and they listen.

[elperromagico]

30. I think it's a combination of both elements you've mentioned.

On the one hand, Republicans/conservatives have gotten better at presenting their message. They're less overt when it comes to discussing the more unsavory aspects of their agenda.

On the other hand, Democrats/progressives have been put into a position of running defense rather than offense. We're so busy fighting the Republicans and their lousy plans that we've lacked either the time or the inclination to come up with a solid agenda of our own.

The combination of these two elements has added up to GOP victories and DNC defeats. Minus a solid, forward-looking agenda, the DNC is like a chicken without a head, bouncing about in every direction... inevitably ending up on the Republican dinner table.

[Dogmudgeon]

10. This is an excellent point

We political junkies at DU tend to be so focused on electoral politics that we forget there's a whole culture out there to work with. This is pretty much how the conservative/bibleback/reactionary culture warriors got as far as they did, even though they only comprise about a quarter of the evangelical movement itself (or <10% of the American public).

When, at last, the New Right dies its inevitable death by self-poisoning, the progressive changes will come fast and full-on. That metastasis of an ideology is the only thing keeping American culture from entering the 21st century.

My prediction? By 2008, there will be significant signs of wear; I doubt that the regime can sustain itself much beyond 2012. If we manage to get GWB impeached, it will fall apart that much sooner, but we ought not to count on that happening.

In any case, the first election after large-scale post-peak-oil related power outages begin will do them in. Suddenly, what the hippies were saying 40-50 years before will start to make sense, and our era will look like a study in mass madness.

--p!

[xchrom]

14. the people in power aren't necessarily elected.

bush, frist and delay have one thing in common -- they are ''symbols'' for the real power, corporations.

it's the oligarchy of like minded individuals who have excessive access to both political parties that are running the show.

until liberals and moderates can unite behind the idea that the ceo of phizer has no more ''wisdom'' about the political direction of the country -- we're screwed.

with moderates -- we're far from that notion yet. and i don't have the answer about how to communicate with them.

i'm not hopefull that the next few years will yield better results -- i think liberals must try to engage, educate and activate as many disaffected americans as possible -- government IS the solution for the people who would otherwise have no voice.
but it's also the best process for the middle class -- it adds to their lives -- rather than subtract.

the middle class is extremely fearful that the left will get in the way of their money -- and to a certain extent we will -- the trade off is more job protection, better schools, more effective health care, a judiciary that treats everyone as individual and offers the proper check and balance to powerful interests, a cleaner environment -- well i could go on -- but you all get the idea.

i think we all have stay active -- try to be patient -- and wait and see.

[VOX]

15. Good points! Kick. n/t

[ClintonTyree]

16. He'll always be MY enemy..........

I do not forgive and forget. My hatred for this scum sucking pig will not stop after he's out of office. Anyone as evil, shortsighted and boneheaded as this numbnut doesn't deserve anything but scorn. Forever.

Are the thousands of victims of bush's folly, I'm taking the dead here, going to forgive an forget his deplorable actions? I think not.

He'll never be just another "old man who used to have a great deal of power" to me. He'll be the benchmark for all theo-cons to come. I'll hate him until my last breath.

The meeker here will say that's anti-productive and bad for my soul. That I shouldn't carry that bitterness around with me forever. Fuck it. For a man as evil as he, he deserves no quarter, even in his retirement. I hate bush and will always hate him. He'll always represent the enemy to me.

[elperromagico]

18. I both understand and share your anger.

Of course we should never forget what Bush has done. Nor should we be willing to offer him easy forgiveness.

Bush is a terrible President, a liar, a crook, and a cheat. I could throw in a thousand more epithets but I'm sure you already know those by heart.

But Bush is only part of a problem... a part that will be gone in a few years. The greater problem is the philosophy he and his party espouse.

That is our main enemy. We were fighting it before Bush became President. We will be fighting it when Bush is gone.

Our children and grandchildren may well still be fighting it when both you and I are dead.

[zanne]

26. ClintonTyree--You're absolutely right.

Alot of Hitler's helpers never saw the inside of a jail cell, either, because they were "old and harmless". My motto is: NEVER FORGET

[elperromagico]

31. It is not a question of forgetting.

It is a question of remembering that the central enemy is the Republican/conservative agenda.

How foolish would we look if, ten or twelve years from now, we're still fighting George W. Bush? It will look as ridiculous as those Freepers who still can't resist blaming every problem on Clinton.

How do you destroy a man with a bad idea? You destroy his idea; you demolish his ideas in such a way so that no one will ever think twice about adopting those ideas again.

You could put every single one of "Hitler's helpers" in prison... you could hang them all... you could line them up before a firing squad...

But you haven't killed the ideology that created them. Until you kill the ideology, "Hitler's helpers" are still with us.

[CWebster]

20. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

The same could've been said about Nixon or Reagan--but at least there were forces of opposition in the press, in political figures, within the culture itself.

What made the incompetent imbecile dangerous was the complicity that enabled him -across the spectrum, with the OPPOSITION party seeking to belittle and silence the outrage.

That is why we are up in arms.



There is always another ready to step in place.

[ulysses]

22. much truth here.

The ideology is indeed the enemy. Nominated. :thumbsup:

[bonzotex]

23. excellent point and not mentioned enough......nominated

Each election is a test of whether we deserve a representative democracy or not. Over the last 4 decades we Americans have been handing our personal and economic liberties over to a small group of oligarchs who really don't give a shit about our country just so long as they personally profit from public policies.

The only way to win in the long term is to counter the conservative "movement" with a comprehensive Progressive ideology. we can't focus on fighting the few worst individuals that are helping to destroy our Nation. We have to fight the entire mindset that allows these individuals to come to power.

[zanne]

24. Somebody has to be held accountable.

He's not the enemy? MY ass.

[elperromagico]

32. Carry on fighting George W. Bush.

But why are you fighting him?

Are you fighting him because he's George W. Bush? Or are you fighting him because of the ideology he espouses?

Carry on fighting George W. Bush. Some day, you may succeed in destroying him.

But by the time you're done, you will see that his ideas are still alive and being carried forward by people who are better at presenting the message than he was.

There was Goldwater. He was defeated by solid Democratic/progressive ideas.

Then came Nixon. He was destroyed by his own corruption.

Then came Reagan. Some of the damage he did to this country was reversed by the Clinton years.

Then came George W. Bush. He's set back the clock to the Reagan years.

What do those men - four men over the course of 40 years of American political history - have in common? The ideology that wants to destroy the Democratic/progressive works of the last century.

Carry on fighting George W. Bush. Just remember that there's somebody else waiting to pick up his battle flag when he falls.

[wli]

28. it's the policies, not the specific "representative" (or even party)

When the successors fail to roll back CAFTA, the USA PATRIOT Act, etc. we need to be every bit as outraged. Unfortunately it probably won't happen, and the handing over of Bush's "head" (resignation, conviction for crimes, whatever) will blunt most of the energy of those trying to fix the damage done.