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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:39 PM
Original message
Spooked by a long-time liberal acquaintance of mine.
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 05:42 PM by TwoSparkles
I have a dear friend, whom I have known for more than a decade.

We met in college in a political science class. I sat in the front row because I was sick of squinting at the blackboard. He sat in the front row because he liked to argue with the professor.

He was extremely liberal, enlightened and incredibly intelligent. I found myself sparking discussions with him after class and we would often go for coffee to extend the conversation. He was a wellspring of knowledge. I would inquire about ANY history/political-science topic (The Battle of the Bulge, Panama, Bush family history, the logging industry, etc) and he could talk for hours and recommend several excellent books on ANY subject.

He stayed single. I got married, but we remained friends--still discussing politics. About two years ago, he began acting disgusted when we discussed politics. I would end up doing most of the talking! He no longer provided insight and enlightenment. Mostly, he seemed irritated by the political discussion. I almost felt that he was now disinterested in politics.

Our conversations became sporadic during the past year. We'd speak maybe once every two months.

The other day, I called him and I started ranting about BushCo and he said, "Look. It's over. This country is gone. There's no use sitting around bitching about all of this anymore--because America is gone. The only thing you can do is live your life, lie low and don't make waves. Got it?"

I was stunned, "Oh, so we sit around and allow fascism to take hold? That's not what America is about. We need to fight."

He replied, "You're right. That's not what AMERICA is about, but this isn't America anymore. The neocons have infiltrated power into every crevice of this country. They neutered the Dems with blackmail or threats or something. It's over. Just keep yourself safe, live out your daily life and yes--keep quiet. Certainly, you don't want to be pegged as a 'protester' or an enemy of this administration."

This guy was always light years ahead of everyone it seemed. My intuition tells me that he still is.

What has happened to him? Has he given up or does he understand--better than I do--that America and our democracy is in critical condition?

I have to say that that my friend's words--together with the actions of our government--has left me with an extremely chilled feeling.

I feel as if we're all unsuspecting island inhabitants--who are about to be hit by a tsunami. It feels as if something big is rolling toward us and that disaster is on the horizon.

I'm sorry if that's dramatic, but it's how I feel right now.
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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. i tend to agree with him
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Yep. The question is how deep and how long.
Using the tsunami/wave analogy, most of us who've body-surfed understand that you don't fight the wave - you dive DOWN and out, holding your breath, coming up for air after the wave has passed. (One of course hopes the next wave won't ruin that plan.)

Nader described it in 2000 - it's only a question of a slow descent into fascism that lasts for several generations or a more rapid and deeper descent that kicks people out of their couches and into the streets. The errors of Nazi Germany won't be repeated - the current brand of Fascists has moved far more slowly and is currently insinuated globally enough that the rest of the world won't be able to combine their forces and wills soon enough to squash us like the bug we are.

How quickly will enough people learn that a 'critical mass' of public activism is precipitated? Personally, I don't think it'll be quick enough... not for me and not for anyone currently alive. The next generation will be born into fascism, be educated in fascism, and will become "good corporate soldiers." Hell, it's already happening.
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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. sigh
great, yet depressing post.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
89. Yes it's depressing,
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 12:01 AM by Andromeda
but many of you should look back to the turn of the 20th century. Things were pretty f**ked up then, and before that, and before that. The United State has always had major crises and we've come through them all.

This country is going through some major changes and GWB is probably the worst president of all but I refuse to believe that we are all doomed!

We can't give up and we must not waste our time on things that are not important. Let petty things go and concentrate on the most urgent problems.

We can make a difference but it isn't going to happen overnight.

If we dwell on the negative it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thoughts are things and you can actually create your own misery by giving it power through your fears.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #89
101. Things are bad right now.
The Republicans have control of everything and the Democrats have been weakened---for now. GWB and his whole administration are corrupt and it doesn't look like this pResident will have to answer for any of his crimes---yet.

We have just begun the fight. It's only been a little under two years that liberal radio has gained popularity. We need to make more inroads in television but that'll take some time.

GW's poll numbers have gone down and people are beginning to ask more questions. The truth will come out and of course they are going to try to destroy anybody who stands up to them.

I am a firm believer that good triumphs over evil. Call me corny but I've believed that all my life, and I'm not particularly religious. I haven't been to church in 15 years and I think I'm just as spiritual as anybody who goes to church every Sunday.

I believe in the power of the Universe or a powerful deity such as God.

Atheists can call it positive thinking, or whatever, since they don't believe in God. We know more than we give ourselves credit for and not as much as we'd like to. There's alway somebody who knows more than we do and that keeps us humble.

This war we're in is a battle of minds and will. We need to keep it together for all of our sakes and there are more of us than you think!
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #101
145. Thank you!!! n/t
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #101
175. Not all republicans are neocons
Those who aren't are silenced just as much as Dems. But, looking from European perspective, it seems to me you guys need to try to engage moderate Republicans to get anywhere. Neocons are not about low taxes and non-intrusive government. When avowed libertarians begin to see they've more in common with you then with the Republican administration, (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/red-state-fascism.h... ), this is an important signal and you need to talk to people.

I;m not for a moment suggesting that Dems should "move to the center". Rather, I'm suggesting you should be pulling some Republicans towards the center.

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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #89
176. F**ked up, yes, but not from the inside (n/t)
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
86. You forget...
the wave will pass.

Even if we take the easy way out - dive down and get air after the wave passes, hope will not dim, potential will not lessen. Even if the next generation grows up in fascism, the inevitable fall of this horrible system will come, and the always-present chance for the better will be realized.

Personally, I would much rather go against the wave (hopefully I would do the same when faced with the real choice).
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #86
131. On the other hand, it may be a tide ... and the analogy fails.
I try to imagine how long Nazi Germany would prevail if it were, in and of itself, more powerful militarily than the rest of the world combined and had the economic clout of the US.

I shudder.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #131
142. It will still recede
Be sure of that much. Fight for that much.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #131
177. Add technology to the mix
Think how long the Nazis (or communists in Eastern Bloc) would have held to power if they had today's technology (weapons, comms, surveillance) available back then. And the money.

And the money. Remember that the Soviet Union fell apart because the economy collapsed, not because communists threw in the towel or were "outed" somehow.

How much was made on the pre-9-11 insider trade? I've seen estimates from 10 billion to 100 billion. This is a lot of money. If this money is used to further neocon purpose, whatever that is, we are seriously screwed. It's not gonna pass all by itself, people. They have enough technology to do pretty much anything, and they can afford it, too.

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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
132. he is correct. America is broken
The US political system can'r be fixed. The whole right wing visciousness thing makes it dysfunctional. ANytime there is a democrat president the right will go after he/she with endless investigations and almost automatically impeach them. Thats what we're in for. The right is irrepairabally viscious. Thankfully I got my passport yesterday.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. I agree too
:hi: Newsguy!

I'll share what I was thinking yesterday and today.

As hard as some of us are working, we're not attacking the right things. The right things are way, way "above" where our attention is riveted on a daily basis.

(Oh, GAWD, this is hard to think about, let alone try to write about. Deep breath.)

Okay, electing a few good people to Congress won't make a difference. In all probability, even if we could, defeating Roberts won't make a difference. I can think of no one thing, and in fact no combination of things, that will sufficiently change things.

THEY ALREADY CONTROL EVERYTHING, or at least everything that's necessary for them to get enough of their way to be perfectly happy, most of the time, and continue to amass power and wealth, and continue with their plan of dominating the world. THEY ALREAYD HAVE EVERYTHING they need for martial law, suppression of ALL dissent, etc., etc., etc. all in place. From the executive orders to the laws, to the courts, etc.

Hell, as just one example -- the Pentagon is under court orders to release the additional Abu Ghraib photos and they're not doing it. Who's gonna make them????? Just answer me that, who's gonna make them???


No, the enemy we fight is way bigger, more powerful and more emcompassing than anything most of us currently worry and fret about or fight directly. I think we lost control with the Kennedy assassination and its bogus resolution, but IMO Iran-Contra was probably our last chance to regain control, and we blew it. We blew it because we didn't quite realize. We didn't quite realize because too much of our REAL history was withheld from us.

I used to blow off the comments I'd find here and there (before I found DU) about Prescott Bush and the Nazis -- after all, that was a long time ago. After all, that doesn't have anything to do with now. After all . . . .

Yeah. After all, it matters. It matters because of George H. W. Bush's crimes and involvements, and it matters because of George W. Bush's crimes and involvements. Cut from the same cloth. They're fascists, just like Prescott Bush. Whether they themselves realize or would call themselves fascists, that's precisely what they are.

Not only that, the Bush administration is following Hitler's playbook line by line. Only with much more sophistication and probably avoiding the errors Hitler made. Are they doing it consciously? I wouldn't know, but I also wouldn't be surprised. It's obvious that a great deal of their lies and manipulation of the media and the people is quite purposeful, quite planned. Isn't that enough?

Our little "fights" and our little activism (our meaning ANYone opposed to the Bush administration agenda, not just DU and DUers), just doesn't aim at dismantling the whole freakin' compound, but rather at repainting a room or two in one of the guest houses.

Translation: as well-meaning as we all are, we are SO out of our league, we are SO not aware of the true nature of this enemy of America and democracy itself.

I am SO depressed about it.

The only thing positive I will say is this, from Gandhi:

When I despiar, I remember that all thru history the way of truth and love has always won. There ahve been tyrants, and murdereers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Always.

I just don't know if he had thought thru global tyrants the likes of which the world has never before seen, let alone contemplated other than in our wildest, most improbable dystopian fiction.

:scared:
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. hitting the nail on the head
Remember what Indira Singh said about it being global? Well, look at the UK's police state dive, look at Canada's out-of-the-blue censorship, and more. It's happening all over the place, and Indira Singh may have some kind of idea what the reasons are.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
72. i am so totally on this wavelength
right down to the iran-contra thing and beyond.

the deep politics folks get a lot of stuff right. there's gems to be had if you take the time to learn the history and can think independently.

to be honest, when i came to DU after the election (came out of lurking) i did so in the full sense of "underground." like -- lets put our heads together, come what may. b/c i think something's coming that we aren't ready for.

we don't know yet how that will pan out. bush and his pals might soar even higher in their evil race to armageddon. but that doesn't seal the deal. it ain't over till it's over.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
95. "Who's gonna make them"...excellent point.
My husband said the same thing and it made me so mad.

I was ruminating about their arrogance to comply with the court order.

He said that they can refuse to comply if they want---who's going to do something to them?

They don't care anyway.

Scary. If we don't see those photos--it will be a very disgraceful time in American history, and one of the worst abuses of power in any administration.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #27
130. Wow, are we on the same page! Word for word.
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 09:52 AM by TahitiNut
The one factor that makes this iteration different to anything before, with the possible exception of the Roman Empire (which is why it's their model): the US has more military might than the rest of the planet combined. Warm bodies is no longer the measure of might - the power to destroy the entire planet several times over combined with the logistical ability to deploy and deliver that power is what makes that power effective.

Germany never had it. The USSR never had it. The British Empire never had it. The US does.

Consider this: There's no way of telling (without access to secrets) how much US military might already exists in orbit.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Lot of libs are moving out of the country but not making a
big deal of it.

i would move to Barbados in a heartbeat if I had the money.
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know...
But I can tell you, they want you to keep quiet and lie low.

Don't vote.

Don't make waves.

Fuck that.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Fuck that is right.
:thumbsup:
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
137. Don't be part of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fight, fight, fight, fight!!

LOUDLY.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
61. And for the ones that do vote?
Diebold!
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #61
136. Fight it!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. *sigh*
I don't know... but that makes me very sad.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
94. Sorry that you are say...
...but if it's any consolation--we all feel sad about all of this.

It can be overwhelming to face the truth--but it's better than shopping at Walmart for trinkets and driving your Hummer--while you're mentally in the dark.

We choose to be enlightened, and with that comes some despair.

However, you have support here--for sure.
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. humanity is in critical condition
sorry to say.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've been there.

In fact I go there often. This country is full of assholes, from the neocons in power to the self-involved, ignorant jerk on the street, and it is easy to lose hope.

Fortunately for me I have an optimistic streak, and this is what you need to work on kindling in your friend. Don't talk politics with him anymore. Concentrate on finding him and yourself high quality freinds and aquaintances. He'll come around when he no longer feels so alone.

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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. I agree with him but
I simply can't give up, lay low and stop fighting. There is a very strong optimistic streak in me that refuses to let go. Intellectually? Yes, he is correct. Can it be fought? Don't know but it is no kind of life for me if I just give it all up.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Feet of clay and a marshmellow spine
He's probably also gotten something he wants and he's afraid of losing it -- money, lifestyle, whatever.




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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. He's right, but too bleak in his outlook.
I agree with the death of the old america as we knew it, but I think there is reason to have confidence in a people who are historically independent-minded. Our history is democratic, and our basic urge is to seek consensus. I think that this urge will win out, but probably will result in a very different country then Bill Clinton's america. There is no going back, only forward.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. He's proposing what East Germans called "inner migration"
The trouble is that if things get bad enough, it doesn't work.

During the worst of the Stalinist period, people who were trying to lie low and not make waves were arrested and shot for things they did without knowing they were illegal.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. Indira Singh "This is going to make the Third Reich look like a tea party"
There is something huge going on, and not anywhere near enough whistleblowers. The GAO guy has some useful information I think may be relevant.
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marew Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Interesting you say that...
Couldn't sleep last night and was up and watched a thoroughly scary documentary on secret societies: Bilderburg, Illuminati, Skull and Bones, and several others. One part pointed out how the chimp has gotten so far basically being dumb as dirt. He has really never worked a day in his life. Everything he touches, he drives into the ground, now even the country. Time after time he was set up by the rich and powerful though he is completely incompetent. (Who else would get into Yale and Harvard with barely a C average in HS?) At the end, one of the researchers said, the way things are going now, within 5 or 10 years, we will be living under a gestapo-type regime. Could the Patriot Act be just the beginning?
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Answering that question is why we need whistleblowers
Also, what was the name of that documentary?

In any event, I suspect these things are motivated by desperation in the face of some impending crises. Currency circulation actually works in favor of the super-rich most of the time so something is broken if they're not going along with it (peak oil, climatological disaster, etc.).
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marew Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
116. The name was "Secret Societies" and it ...
was on the History Channel.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #116
161. I can't find it on the History Channel's OnDemand selection
or the cable feed's schedule.
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marew Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #161
166. Unfortunately, when I checked the History...
Channel Schedule on the internet, I could not find any future rebroadcast info. Sorry. I saw it on Tues., 7/26 at 3 AM ET. Hopefully they will repeat it in the not too distant future. It certainly is timely.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
56. what GAO guy? i must be outta the loop.........
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
156. David Walker, Comptroller General of the GAO
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. thanks!
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
100. That's why you have to try
to stay on top of things. The Bush group likes to put out tons of scandals and knew ordeals very rapdily so while a bunch of things is going on they can sneak something through (like with the Real ID act). You have to still be on top of what's going on and not just lie low. You have to try to stop what you can before they really do have everything. You have to stay informed yourself and inform other people. Do like the White Rose Society group. Make phamplets and word of mouth to people. Educate them. Make them see reality and not the rosey picture they want to see (if they don't already see it).
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
140. Like walking out the front door of your flat?
:scared:
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #140
159. During the Stalinist era, when he was at the height of his paranoia
people would be arrested for things like accidentally knocking over a bust of Stalin or having the factory machine they were working on break down (that's sabotage, don't you know?)
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
179. I see this all the time
All the way here in Poland. I try to talk to people, and when shown evidence, they nod their heads but do not react.

A few weeks back I bumped into a couple of friends. We started talking politics for a while, then they said "Oh, we're not into that at all." They were on their way to a meditation session with a Zen master for chrissakes. Zen meditation!

Now, I am sure the world would be a wonderful place if everyone did nothing but Zen meditation. But this is the "inner migration" you're talking about, and unless people wake the f**k up, we're gonna see Bush's "imminent doom" in our lifetime.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. I disagree with him even though he's correct
I'll go down fighting, and hating them until their bullet enters my skull
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. "I want to be alive when I die" -- Margaret Bourke-White
(as opposed to a long life of incremental spiritual suicide). One of my favorite quotes to live by.

At least he answers the question of how could the Germans have allowed the Nazis to do what they did. We can't be so high and mighty about that one anymore, can we?
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
125. Exactly!
This may be hopeless but my soul will die if I don't continue to fight this fight. That this fight may be won or lost is less important than that I am fighting.

I wanted to leave after the last stolen election, but I got over it, and I got back to what must be done.

His friend is soul-sick. I feel very sad for him.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #125
138. Yes, me too. I also agree with the other posters that he needs to be
shown examples of all the good people fighting, they do more than anything else to lift me when I need it. It's human to want to join the good fight, if you see it being fought. It's very disheartening to not see anyone else fighting when you see injustice.
There is very good reason to be soul-sick right now, but it's only fatal if it's left alone.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. I think 1984 is here. We are just not seeing the full impact yet.
War is peace. Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is stregnth.

I tend to think your friend is right. I think there are cataclysms on the horizon and dissenters won't be tolerated in the herd instinct panics to come.

I noted with concern the proliferation of video serveillance camers all over Austin - this trend began 2 or 3 years ago...

if we can be scared into giving up our rights as citizens and place too much power into the hands of law enforcement, the potential for abuse is way too tempting for authoritarian types to brainwash enough Americans to go along.


You just don't want to get the attention of the GESTAPO if you can help it.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. cataclysms like peak oil, runaway global warming, etc.
How do you think governments would handle these? Would they stand still knowing 100 million or more dispossessed people may try to seize what they cannot buy? What do you think 100 million people starving and dehydrating with no money would do?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
68. This crowd would nuke half of us just to cow the other half.
And they'd giggle insanely while doing it.
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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. Your friend is basically correct, but...
...I can't surrender ...yet. It's wrong.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
96. You go, Mike----
I hear ya. Never surrender.

I think my friend is just tired.

He's been at this for a long time.

I think maybe he's taking a much-needed rest.
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Here's what helps me...I go back to the Founding Fathers...
I read what they wrote, I read their personal stories, their letters, I re-watch programs about them and I marvel at the Great Intersection that occurred in their time. The Great Intersection of Great Minds, Great Ideas, Great Optimism and Great Courage.

I am the biggest cynic that ever lived, I promise you. I am the furthest thing from sentimental. But when I go back and revisit those men and women, I am so humbled and strangely invigorated by what I truly believe was one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of our world. They left us with an incredible gift and an awesome responsibility. Here is your country, if you can keep it.

And I will be damned if I will let this current band of criminals fuck it all up permanently. Greater men than us have had this challenge, greater men than us managed to preserve those ideals and we will outlast the evil bastards, one way or another.

And that is how I think of it in the dark times: Goddamn it, I've been an American longer than they've been an administration, and I'm not going anywhere.

We just gotta take turns picking each other up off the floor from time to time.

"We must all hang together, or we will surely hang separately." - Ben Franklin, my hero
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
66. in the 60s many of us started rereading US history to learn/relearn what
the country is really all about

when you're constantly being told you're unAmerican, you're driven to find out for yourself what it means to be 'an American'

one of the basic things this study affirmed/reaffirmed for me is that the number one characteristic of an American is to question what s/he is told, especially by any and every 'authority'
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
105. I agree
I'm with you as well. I will always defend the Constiution. The most precious document (and the Bill of Rights) in our land. Forget the Bible or any other religious book. I'm religious myself but when it comes to my country those documents come first. If the first settlers can get through the Salem "witch" trials we can get through anything. Read "The Cruicable" sometime. That's some scary shit.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
181. Bravo
Same thing here.

I used to teach American literature at a university here in Poland. I never really understood Emerson and Thoreau until I had to talk to my students about them. They sound so "un-American" now.

They say classroom kills literature, and it's true most of the time. Except once we were discussing "Leaves of Grass" and when we got to the last piece, "look for me under your boot-soles", I realized one of the twenty-something ladies in class was in tears.

You can be as cynical as you want, but there's true strength there. The thng is, is this all we're gonna have for consolation in the years to come?
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. big sigh............
I've been feeling that for quite a while...but there's just this part of me that cannot lie down and quit. just can't!

but it takes the breath out of me when other bright people get in touch with that vibe. so, on with signing the petitions and calling and advocating action to make a change. do it while I can, before they roll out the militia and haul me in for questioning!
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. Can I ask a favor?
I get the feeling -- increasingly -- that the petitions and the this's and that's -- are a little bit like busy work. Can you read my post upthread and contemplate spending some of your time THINKING about what the bigger picture might be, what it might look like to fight the REAL enemy at a level that would make a difference?

I'm not saying instead of what you're doing if you're comfortable with those activities, but in addition to.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. ahhh, eloriel.........
you capture it perfectly. it is why I do the things I can...hoping that little bit by little bit we might chip away at the behemoth.

I cannot comprehend what it is we would do to change things as they are shaping up to be. when I do contemplate it I want to gather my chicks and run to some safe haven. then I remember that this is global.

but I will do as you request. I'll give it some deep thought. perhaps an answer will present itself -- maybe it already exists.

maybe since THEY are using a playbook WE should find one, too. maybe it exists, already?
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
45. self delete
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 08:59 PM by sojourner
misplaced post (answered myself! d'uh!)
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. Politics has always been about power, not the way it should be.
But the neocons aren't projecting force, or vision, or values. They're not really projecting anything. Its funny to think that they are trying to control people without giving directives, because directives are part of control. Look at China, its EXPLICITLY known that you don't criticize the leaders, its a fact people will state on the street. But there are no such directives in place here, and for those directives to be in place, the bad part of the neo-cons would have to come "out of the shadows". Now activists get chilled for various reasons, but activists are just the cutting edge. The hold back a drop, then a cup, then the whole tsunami will come crashing down. Lay low, or stand up for what you believe, its your choice, this is america and we will speak with one voice!
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
17. im afraid he might be right too.
you never know youre going to lose a game until its over. and this one is rigged.
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Lone_Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. I know the fascists would be very happy if everybody adopted
your friends tactic.

Ask yourself "What would * want us to do?", and then do the exact opposite.
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tubbacheez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. Sounds like he simply has a new interpretation of the same situation.
Try not to confuse knowledge with emotion. He can be very knowledgable AND pessimistic, just as someone else could be very knowledgable AND optimistic.

The difference is merely an emphasis on different data, and a personal judgment on what it bodes for us.





Don't demand instant change. Don't lose patience.

Yet, don't give up either.



Persistance and patience are what we must balance. Revolution is short-lived and risky. Evolution is long-lived and comparatively stable. Do not confuse evolution with stagnation, though. At first glance, the two are indeed similar.

Like a tree growing on a rocky cliff, our roots must constantly seek stronger ground and better water. Our branches must constantly seek better light. And our trunk must constantly grow in the direction that would withstand the strongest winds.

Maybe your friend, after so many years of activism, needs a sabbatical from the front lines. Let him have it. If he has inspired you or other people to action, his contributions are not to be dismissed.

Perhaps he will rejoin the struggle in a later round.


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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
84. a most excellent post, tubbacheez
While the OP is maintaining that his friend is knowledgeable and intelligent, "disposition" is quite another matter. Disposition is how we tend to look at the world. Some people are dour, others optimistic.

Disposition is something we are born with. See the work of Winifred Gallager, a most dreadful writer, at:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/199409/gallagher

While the poster might be intelligent and erudite, he could also be pessimistic in nature, which might have more to do with his conclusion than his intellectual assessment of this situation.


Cher
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tubbacheez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. This was the 1st I've heard of Gallagher.
For that, and your compliments, I thank you.

:)


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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
99. tubbacheez--I like your optimism...
I have a feeling, like you said, that "perhaps he will rejoin the struggle in a later round."

I felt like something had died when he expressed compliance--and such a willingness to cave in. After all, he awakened me politically--and that's very symbolic. It was like a therapist that you've seen for a decade, leaving someone on the couch and saying, "I'm outta here. Psychotherapy is all bullroar."

I felt like all hope had died.

However, after reading many of these posts, and mulling things over--I think he might be taking a rest.

He's been extremely plugged into politics for much of his life. The last few years must have taken a toll on him.

Again, I like your bright attitude. And yes, it is important to realize that he may be in a pessimistic mood right now--and that certainly colors his views and outlook. Thanks for the reminder.
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tubbacheez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #99
169. Thank you, TwoSparkles.
It can be weird, in any quest, when your mentor or long-time associate isn't available. But that's part of the path any learner.

From one standpoint, the very fact that you're even in this situation reveals how influential he was to you, not to mention how committed you have been to our cause over such a long time.

It's all good, in the end. He has inspired you, and maybe several others. That's great work. Even if he never lifted a finger ever again, which I would doubt, he'd still have my respect for what he has accomplished.

And if he returns to us at some point, he'll arrive on the front lines possessing the added benefit of growing and learning during his time away from us.

Just like in pro sports, we are all on one big team. When some of us need a break, there are plenty of others to rise up and take on the opposition. We have experienced folks playing next to newbies, and everyone may have a slighly different style. But that's ok.

Though we cannot truly replace each other, we can contribute in our own way. And our team, with good coaching, won't find it too hard to adjust to the change.

Do your best for our cause. And so will I.

And remember that sometimes doing your best means getting enough rest.





:)
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
22. I agree with him, and I feel we should be careful, but I'm not giving up
yet. The reason I feel the way I do is that I have always suspected something much deeper going on with the CIA, FBI, White House etc and I believe Indira Singh has the proof. If you want to really know what or why your friend feels the way he does, read/listen to this:
The radio show is one hour. it required very careful attention on my part to take it all in. The transcript makes 16 pages in a word document.

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/archives.php?id=13

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. how much psychwar has been going on?
i recall in the late 60's/early 70's this thing called 'subliminal advertising' which was kind of a rage among nascent anti-corporate anti-big business (there was a famous book came out about about that time called 'small is beautiful') types, and the freaky thing was the 'opposites sell' idea...putting devils or monsters into alcohol ads or putting the word 'cancer' in cigarette ads, or obese women on food ads etc...from what i understand, the catch is exactly that: subconsciously we remember things that are nasty or perplexing. The point is that somewhere around the time of reagan (which also saw Aids began ripping up certain demographics) the stuff about subliminal advertising suddenly and totally disappeared. What happened to subliminal advertising?
Many things in this world do not make sense. Even an armchair philosopher such as i could have told saddam h that had he told the UN he wanted to have elections THE DAY AFTER POWELL APPEARED AT THE UN or had he invited the pope to bagdad in the week prior to the invasion, or had he invited the china soccer team...etcetera (you get the picture) the busheviks would not have been able to carry out their scheme, but NOOOO..,.same with israel and yassir arafat: had arafat walked up to army post and blew up a grenade, no one on earth would believe israel's explanation but, arafat did nothing...same with the wtc disaster- it would have only took one hijacker to call the cops on sept 10th, but again NOOOOOOO! The reason things happen the way the tv says is because certain interests are served and lotsa money makes sure of it...the psyching out of people like your friend probably is part of the reason that 911 (or kal 007, ever heard of that media conjob?) or the 2k election come off the way they seem to...which is remarkable when you consider bush never won the 2k election, and 911 was staged by hollywood, in effect. it boils down to did god make a mistake creating the universe, or did abe lincoln make a mistake by not hanging the civil war traitors?
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
26. he's right, we're in deep doo doo
I've largely resigned myself to getting killed by this administration outright.
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liberalpress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
121. I too expect the thought police to close in any day..
...but here's the thing... (and I heard this quote from the movie "The Princess Diary 2" of all places) "Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the realization that some things are more important than the fear). They can come get me anytime they want.. but they better kill me quick... because I intend to go out loud and screaming... and if they put me away in a place like Gitmo, it better be solitary confinement, because I'll have fostered a few prison riots before their bullet comes. RESIST!
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #121
160. my physical capabilities are limited
All it takes is an indiscriminate roundup or so to take me out. A little lack of medicine and I'll be dead and gone.
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marew Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
29. I feel the same way.
I am so discouraged. Bad has become good, wrong has become right. We are being ruled by an elitist class who have pulled one off with the religious (not) right big time. How can anyone be a human, let alone a so called Christian, and not want to help the needy, the poorest, those who need our help? Wasn't it amazing how the terror levels were raised right before the election and then were lowered and have remained lowered. The Iraqi war is completely illegal. How can people not see it is all about oil and Halliburton and big corporations? If we care so much--liberate the Iraqi people--why are we ignoring Darfur? Why is Bush not being made responsible for his lies? Why has Rove gotten away with all his dirty tricks over and over? Why is Cheney allowed to have secret meetings? Everything is a mess: the economy, pollution, etc. Where I live the cost of the median house is tens of thousands of dollars more than the median family income. Teachers, nurses, policemen, firemen, etc., can no longer afford to buy houses. People work all their lives for a pension and then it is stolen from them. Integrity no longer exists among the rich and ruling class. It has been replaced with extreme selfishness and greed. They need more houses, bigger personal jets, grander vacations. Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. Many, many years ago in high school, we were required to study communism, supposedly a very real threat to our survival. It wasn't that at all. The rot and decomposition has come from inside.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
78. You got it
what's really been eliminated from our system of government is the one thing that can restore power to the people:

CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

It is entirely left out of the dialogue, as if there is no longer such a thing. I can barely think of one administration official that doesn't have a conflict of interest. Nor many members of congress either.




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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. I'm afraid your friend is right.
And you don't need to look any further than the DLC call for "unity" (behind THEIR neocon agenda) as proof that we are truly on our own.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
32. I'm afraid he's right.
But I will never shut up about it until they take me away and put one behind my ear. I'll die for what's right before I conform to fascism.
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
33. I am feeling it too...
<I feel as if we're all unsuspecting island inhabitants--who are about to be hit by a tsunami. It feels as if something big is rolling toward us and that disaster is on the horizon.>

Another terror attack,but huge. The only reason al-queda haven't hit us since 9-11 is because this attacks needs to be bigger.That is how al-queda works.If they succeed and it does turn out bigger than 9-11,things will really get nutty. I pray I am wrong....

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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
34. Could be me
sounds alot like my POV at this point. I am hoping to escape to old Europe soon. Between Diebold, hate radio, and Cabal News, this America is dead as a doornail.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. Trouble is....
I am Constitutionally incapable of lying low and keeping my mouth shut.

I may have the Right to Remain Silent,.......but I do not have the capability.

Reserve my condo at Gitmo now, because I will NOT go silently into that good night.
(but I'm kinda envious of those that can.)
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. I underestand! I will not go silently into that dark night
They are gonna hafta pry my gun from my cold, dead fist! I will fight the Faschists to the death!
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
37. I disagree with your friend....
America, as a pluralistic society, is more alive than ever...and that's the scary part. That's also the challenge - - how to bring Americans together?

John Edwards was wrong...there aren't two Americas....there are at least nine or ten of them! And counting.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
41. He's right...and a little wrong too
It sounds like he's given up. Believe it or not, these times are nothing like what people have lived through in real war zones. We still have democracy, even though it's on the ropes and bleeding.

We can't just give up. Pick ourselves up, take a deep breath and put up the fight. It will not be easy toppling the powers that be for the moment. It will take years...generations...

If you just decide to sit on the sidelines and let others carry the weight...you're a bad as the enemy.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
42. Well, he does have a point, now doesn't he?
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
43. Remember, at least 1/2 of America really hates what's going on...
With all the right-wing shit. Remember that Nixon made an enemies list, too. We've been here before, but not to this degree.

Yeah, it's bad. Take a break if needed, but never, EVER give up the fight!!! :grr:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. What was the explanation for asking you to remove the pic?!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
47. He is human. Self-preservation.
When demand outstrips supply, expect more of the same if not worse than merely lying low.
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
51. He's right!
My dad has cancer. Once he's gone he wants me to move to New Zealand. I plan on doing just that.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
52. I don't agree!
I will Never give up..it's not in my nature.

There will be a goddamned civil war before that happens what your friend talked about.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #52
90. Right on zidzi!
That's what I like to hear.

I will never give up either! :thumbsup:
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
53. America. The Great Experiment.
I will never give up on her, NEVER.

The reckoning is coming. Believe it.


B-)
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
54. Nonsense...
Some people just lose the will to fight for a whole range of reasons. Many spend year in and year out trying to effect change, and always see most of their efforts or candidates fail. Imagine how progressives in Mississippi feel? Hell, I'm in Virginia and often feel like throwing in the towel - but we score some sweet victories from time to time, and the best is yet to come.

The country is not lost, the neo-cons have not permanently taken over, and Republicans will not always be in charge.

The pendulum always swings back. Think of it this way, as far to the right as this nation has moved/is moving at this very moment, eventually it will swing back the other way. In a bizarre sort of way, the further the tilt to the right now, the more opportunity for real change will come later when the pendulum swings far to the left.

Never give up or follow the lead of those who do. There is not some great rightwing power that is destined to take and hold the country - the times we face are the result of Republicans who've learned how to sell their message, and a Democratic party which got lazy and lost touch with the people. That won't last forever. America had been tilting right for a number of years - and that was via the will of the people. Just when it was perhaps set to move in the other direction - 9-11 happened. Karl Rove is not some super genius, he just knows how to run political campaigns. The Republicans have honed their message and have established propaganda mills on cable TV and talk radio. So what? We are beginning to do the same.

Your friends advice to you is wrong. Don't keep quiet, don't keep your head down, and don't give up. That doesn't mean you have to obsess about politics all the time, but you should certainly keep up the good fight - we will have our day in the sun at some point. Could be years, perhaps even another decade - but it will happen.

Chin up :)

Imajika
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grrl62 Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #54
122. i agree with your point
things always swing back and forth; however, ON A WHOLE the general populus HAS become more liberal minded.

maybe we should take some comfort in the fact that so many people are waking up, albeit slower than we would like (but that's usually the case). they are signing the petitions, having conversations, and even acknowledging their own feelings of discontent and uncertainty. i think it is important for us to make ourselves visible as not only to continue to express dissent, but also to serve as a place of sanctuary for those who are just waking up.

so many people are afraid to speak out/act out b/c they do not see others actively doing so. and yes, thank the MSM for having a hand in stifling the word, but come on people think about how many of us visit this website. think about how many of us READ articles and posts on this website (probably 3-5 times more than the number of registered members) and think about how many times you have sent a link to someone about a DU post/article. we are touching a lot of lives. we can make a difference.

yeah i get upset, a lot. and yeah i say "screw it, there is no point" too sometimes. but i keep coming back. why? because i refuse to go down without a fight. i would rather say i tried, than i rolled over.

i care and i am PROUD to care. we are the true patriots, because we are standing up for what we believe in. we are standing up for what is correct. i care about this country and i care about the world.

you never know what will happen. you do not know the future. as much as it seems all preplanned sometimes, do you honestly think those assholes expected 1/2 the dissent and challenges they've faced thus far?

we have liberal x-ians speaking out - yeah! take that. we have people who normally are comfortable in the middle now getting pissed. i haven't seen a dub-ya sticker in quite some time...

ultimately, we all are going to experience a wide range of emotions, hell - there is a lot going on! - but we are the future, at least we can be, as long as we continue to try.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #54
133. I like that..
"Chin Up"! :) :toast: to Imajika!
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #133
152. Thanks!
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
55. Thomas Jefferson wouldn't lie low.
Many at DU would be wise to reconsider their opinion of the 2nd Amendment.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. I can't get a gun so I may as well prevent others from doing so.
So maybe I'll be able to keep my head in the end. (not going crazier or having it turned into bloody pulp by some "pro-life" maniac.)
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Why can't you get a gun? Plus, there are other weapons.
Get a baseball bat.

Or go for the more traditional pitchfork.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. c'mon for chrisakes!
you think we're going to have any effect against the large armor and techno shit this gov't has been getting arrayed for use against us? Not that when push came to shove I wouldn't -- just -- shit....talk about being outgunned!
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. You should see how the "insurgents" are doing in Iraq
and they are using some rudimentary techniques.

I suppose it all depends on your personality, but I certainly hope there are more people willing to make an effort *ahem* should it come to that.

As Edna Mode said in The Incredibles, "Luck favors the prepared." :)
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. agreed.
:)
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. But I do agree with you that the general population is outgunned
But not outmanned.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #60
180. Quite often repressive rightwing governments
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 10:29 AM by kenny blankenship
have their dirty work contracted out to paramilitary "militias" so they can pretend to be clean and the guardian of the people's safety. Self-defence against the proxies of the right is a good reason to think about arming bears. Setting aside any other purposes you may have thought were being alluded to--you may need it just to get to the border alive someday.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #55
69. Thomas Jefferson would go to France and ask for help
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #69
123. Thanks to Dumbass, I think we're on our own this time
:patriot:
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #55
174. Thomas Jefferson wouldn't be able
to speak his mind. Not even here.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
59. Those who study this stuff 24/7 for years and years get disenchanted
from seeing all the bullshit. It wounds them deeply inside. I get like that sometimes. When I do I tend to take a break from it all. Our country has some serious problems, no doubt. That has just taken his will out from under him. It's frustrating.

I don't fully agree though. I think progressives are on the rise in terms of building a base. On city councils, school boards, mayorships, that sort of thing. It takes a whole movement, that's how Conservatives got so strong. We can make it back, it just takes some serious work.

We need to make a shift and not use traditional activism in the same manner. We need to use electoral politics as activism. Start grassroots organization, get progressives(maybe even yourself)elected and enact good public policy.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
62. If he thinks the economy can hold out
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 09:57 PM by YOY
with the way things are going for several generations then he is more optomistic than I am.

I'll lie low and hold my tongue when I'm dead. I have nothing to lose anymore but my family and friends.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
65. He's right. We speak freely HERE 'cuz we'd be disaparacidos
like in Allende's time or Pinochet's time. I speak for myself since some in my own family are pro BushCo. Thanksgiving is interesting. So is watching TV. Bro in law likes FoxSnooze.

I just ask pointed questions.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
70. This is the most disturbing thread I've read here at DU
I plan to fight this......

Bama
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
71. Maybe he's going through a phase
-- and you caught him on the dark side of the moon. Keep on keeping on.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
73. They just got
started on the corporate vote counting machines in 2000, Lets not be to spooked they are few we are many,in 5 years time we have a lot of Americans learning about the CVCM just in the past 8 months alone we have made great strides,this up against a media that isn't on our side the Dem's who are still getting up to snuff on the CVCM we are doing great.

Keep spreading the truth about the CVCM ,and don't be afraid,I think they made one mistake they underestimated America and the American people.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
74. He is right.
and it is not just here in the US. It is global.
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StaggerLee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. If it's truly global
Why are so many people posting here think they can escape it by moving to another country?

:wtf:

Stand and fight! Unless you have some sort of spaceship we don't know about then you have no other choice.

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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Because when confronted with the realization of this
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 11:01 PM by Robbien
the mind's defense is denial or suppression. Also there is the natural urge to flee from danger.

I do fight and while fighting try to convince myself I am doing some good. But underneath all the pretense I am just trying to keep the insanity of it all at bay.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #74
151. I agree- Technology is what Hitler didn't have- they do.
They control everything that we depend on, if we
get too out of control, they can simply shut it off.
Banks
Telecommunications
Electrical grids
Water

And the other factor is how they have
been quitely enlisting Jackboots from
global sources. Wanna eat?
Serve the Global Army.
There are plently of willing recruits globally,
thanks to the fact the the World Bank has
destroyed their ability to eat.

The Empire is complete.
We just don't know it yet.

I agree with the friend completely.
As do most people who actually
comprehend and understand what is in place.

BHN
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #151
162. one problem
in order to enlist support, they need a media, but in order to survive, they need a pigmedia which lies all the time....thus they end up with something even dupes dimply understand is fulla shit, but they need the people to trust media in order to follow them but no one trusts pigmedia (ie fox! hahaha!) so they sorta screwed (hoisted) by their own retard...
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
75. HE is the problem
The opposition has to buck up, stand up, and scream. IF there are too many of HIM, we are sunk.

I think that many, if not most, people are seeing the light. The polls show it if nothing else! The recruitment figures show it -- there is no real support of this GWB war, just the phony support on Faux Tee Vee.

HANG IN THERE EVERYONE!!
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #75
103. That is a really good point...
*'s polls have sunk since Jan, and the recruitment figures are a graphic statement. People understand that this war is a waste of resources and lives--and that it was based on total lies.

There are signs of the light breaking through.

I agree that people do need to stand up and scream. I think my friend had been screaming for years--and now he's tired.

I remember reading about learned helplessness in my psych class. Dogs who are repeatedly shocked, when trying to figure out how to get a reward--eventually lie on the floor and give up. I think this is what happened to my friend. He doesn't and positive outcomes from his actions or political awareness. Like the dogs, he feels that he cannot effect the outcome--right now.

I kind of feel helpless--because I feel alone. I don't see protesters or anyone in the streets. Things are far worse than the days of Vietnam. Those people took to the streets, created an entirely new music genre, a new way of dressing and talking--and they effected change. I don't see that happening and I crave a sense of belongingness and the sense that we CAN create change.

Maybe the lack of a visible, very demonstrative movement--is getting to people. Maybe that's how it all starts to happen.




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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
76. He probably is right
about the America we know being over. Things could never be the same, just like they were never the same after WWII or Vietnam or Watergate. Are we a fascist state already? Maybe or damned close.
I can't agree with laying low. Can't do it, it's just a way of giving up and giving in to them. I won't at least let them know that someone knows just what they are and if it costs my life so be it.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
80. You're giving up to soon if you think it's too late
A punch is strongest just prior to its furthest reach and then it immediately loses its power and there is a moment of incredible vulnerability. If we act as dumb as the right wing, we'll never be able to take advantage of that. But there are a lot of smart people around and we were born in this age because we are the ones who can handle it. IF NOT US, THEN WHO?

It is a big force we face, but don't forget your physics. And just look up at the stars to see that what appears to be chaos, there is a tremendous order that allows all things to exist. This is the greater force. Either join it willingly or you'll be turned over for compost. We who believe in collective responsibility really do have the upper hand because we have the force of nature's Holy YES to Life pushing us forward. Make it happen by keeping your ideas out there. Keep speaking out against the evil, keep calling a spade a spade. There are many who need only a nudge to awaken out of their stupor, some need the security of groups of people, and others must be shaken hard. It only takes a few people to get things moving. AND IT'S ON THE MOVE ALREADY. It's here!!! Join it, don't hang on the fence. This is global, not just an American thing.

So stop giving up simply because you've realized it can be exhausting. You'll get a second wind. It's coming. It's natural.



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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
81. Your friend has a point.
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 11:07 PM by girl gone mad
There are many, many days when I feel exactly as he does. Politics is too depressing, thinking about the state of affairs in this country is emotionally and physically draining. Sometimes it does seem like it would be best just to live life to the fullest, help others as much as possible, and try to forget about the problems of the world.

Then there are many days where all I want to do is devote all of my energy into bringing about political change.

Your friend might come back around eventually.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
82. something I wrote after the election is similar: winter is coming...
Winter is coming

Do not be fooled.this election was a referendum on evil. And a majority of Americans have chosen in favor of it.
Electing Bush means a victory for war. A victory for torture. A victory for the slaughter of innocents, a victory for intolerance, fear, and hatred. A victory for lies and half-truths. A trumping of good by arrogance, hubris and self-entitlement.Winning the day has been fear and arrogance. Homophobics have throttled democracy to remain comfortable in their bigoted skins.

Winter is coming

Do not be surprised. Now there is not even the fetter of re-election hopes to temper Bush and his cronies. They are free to commit crimes against the Geneva Convetion, against the international community, against those who dissent, against the American people.and the republican congress will dissolve any present investigations into outings of CIA agents, of Halliburton sweetheart deals, of Abu Ghraib hierarchy, of falsified intelligence, of incompetence at the highest levels. All will evaporate. Those who sought to hold the administrations feet to the fire will find themselves shutout, harassed and shut down. The loudest voices will be stilled. The most persistent critics will be disappeared.

Winter is coming

Do not be complicit. Whatever it takes, whatever you must sacrifice, do not contribute or assent to the coming soldiers of fascism. Do not agree with the disappearing of journalists, do not remain silent when protestors are shot and killed by police. Do not turn the channel when the authorities celebrate another protesor eliminated. Watch. Remember. We must always remember.

Winter is coming

Do not agree to be the food for their war. Do not easily give in to the bloodlust for innocents. Do not buy into the lie of patriotism to further the goals of Corporate Greed. Remember that first you are Americans. Remember that first you are defenders of freedom, You are not accountants that dole out tiny portions of freedom according to your own stingy budget.
When in the mouth of war, remember that you are human. When in the belly of the beast, remember that God made you to live. Survive. Return to us, whole or broken, but return to us and teach us of the folly of war from the tears in your eyes, from the scars of your wounds, from the breaking of your heart.

Winter is coming

Do not let worship of the administration pass your lips. Do not pretend to agree with insane policies to keep peace with others. Do not agree to the descending march of loss liberty. Do not go silent when you are taken. Do not be afraid to speak for others like you. Do not be afraid to wall up your houses and make hiding places. Do not fear to face evil, whose power derives from darkness. Shine a light instead and shove it in the face of evil. Expose it for what it is.

Winter is coming

Time to prepare. Time to split the wood. Time to can the food. Time to insulate the shelters. Time to count what you hold dear and keep it close to you. Time to wear stronger coverings. Time to be like the snow fox and blend in when necessary. Your duty is to survive. This evil hopes to eliminate the sane. Do not be in the places they look. But always be looking for places they gather. Become agile. Become wary. Become cautious. Be resolved that your own survival is worth more than their defeat.

Winter is coming

And the times will be hard. But we need you to survive.
Even if the antichrist should fool the elect, be not likewise deceived. God is not mocked, whatsoever you sow, that shall you also reap. Sow goodness, sow resolve, sow strength,. Winter is coming, but in the spring, that which youve sown will arise.

May God Bless America, in spite of itself. May God protect the rest of the world from what American has become.

Lerkfish
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
83. True, but only if we let it.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
85. One redeeming thought... The world will not let 'our' atrocity continue
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 11:58 PM by SnoopDog
We may die.

We may take our country back.

We don't have to live here - there is no such thing, anymore, as loyalty to a country - only a loyalty to a country who takes proper care of its citizenship.

275 million people can win over the evil murderous terrorists that have taken over our country.

Or the entire country will lay in ruin.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #85
104. That is why I would consider leaving...
I wouldn't leave to escape BushCo, per se.

I am more concerned about the world turning against us--and deciding to declare war on us.

Sorry if that's pessimistic, but I worry that the hate for us is growing daily. Junior has weakened us. He's made others detest us, but he's also weakened us economically. He's bankrupted us.

Junior saunters around the country--calling names and identifying countries as part of the "axis of evil." How would we like it if some country's government declared us part of an "axis of evil"? What was he thinking? You don't inflame the unstable, call them names and then hope that they'll sit at a table with you and give up their weapons of mass destruction. The man is a walking disaster area.

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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
87. that's very sad.
i think some people are just so exhausted from everything --

like he's drowning and he's struggled for so long and is ready to give up and let go because he can't struggle to save himself anymore.

that's so sad.

but that's okay.

some of us can carry on for those who can't.

and if the time comes when we become weak hopefully others will have regained their strength to pick up the fight for us.



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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
91. And your friend has been to jail how many times?
Beaten by secret police when?

Sent to which internment camp?

Or has he granted himself the pure luxury of a total collapse based on nothing more than theories of what is happening in a hundred hidden places?

This is what happens to too many of us with an intellectual bent. We forget that deciding "what it all means" all by ourselves at a computer screen not only doesn't make it inevitable but doesn't make even the faintest ripple on the surrounding reality.

As I often say to people who have discouraged themselves with only their own minds: You can sit up all night and conclusively deduce that you don't exist - only to find in the morning that you still need a carton of milk.

All the best to him and you. :toast:
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #91
114. you rock, FredStembottom
:yourock:
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #91
127. There is wisdom in the physical.
Often the heart, mind, or spirit can convince itself of many, many crazy things. But then at the end of it all you have to come back to bodily functions. Escapism is an amusing self-defense mechanism, but the corporeal form is amazing in shattering illusions.

As you point out, you can convince yourself you don't exist -- and then eventually you get hungry and go find something to eat.

His reality is none of those things, there is no excuse not to fight. Even when you are faced with that, there is no excuse not to fight. To do so is fall into the sin of Sloth, to let evil win by good doing nothing. Again, there is no excuse not to fight. When you are in your darkest hour, steel yourself with that truth; for all who side with good, there is no excuse not to fight. There Is No Excuse Not To Fight. You just have to choose HOW you want to fight; some ways are smarter than others... Some "fight" by winning hearts, some "fight" by prevention, and unfortunately there comes the time when fighting the heart, the mind, the spirit, the friends, the money, etc. fails, then you have to fight with your body. But, there is no excuse not to fight.
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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #127
135. "Fight with your body". I like that way of remembering it.
Until we have fought with our bodies - we aren't done. And fighting with our bodies is just another beginning.
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #91
153. FredStembottom, clearly I've spent too much time
on DailyKos, because I just tried to give you a 4.

So have one anyway! :toast:
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
92. I know how both of y'all feel
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 12:08 AM by FreedomAngel82
I like to feel there is some type of hope. A greater being will stop it or something. I really don't know anymore. Some days I have hope and most days I just want to give up and do the advice like your friend. *sigh* If you do hear a democrat speaking up he/she soon is running away with their tail under their legs or something or if they do speak they're a lone voice and are attacked (like Kennedy is often).
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
93. your friend is indeed very perceptive . . .
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 12:13 AM by OneBlueSky
he's articulating precisely the kind of fear that will indeed be the end of America . . . MANY MANY people feel exactly the same way . . . and that's a MAJOR reason for the lack of visible outrage in this country and the seeming acquiescence of the masses to its takeover by the corporate fascists . . .

that your friend has determined that this is the only response, and that he's seemingly adopted it in his own life, is both unfortunate and scary . . .

unfortunate because it removes a perceptive mind from our side of the struggle . . .

and scary because he may just be right . . .

p.s. . . upon a little reflection, this may be the single most important thread that we've had in a long time . . . overcoming the "go along/get along" fearfulness is where this war will be won or lost . . .
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #93
106. Very interesting thoughts...
You said...

p.s. . . upon a little reflection, this may be the single most important thread that we've had in a long time . . . overcoming the "go along/get along" fearfulness is where this war will be won or lost . . .

That "go along get along fearfulness" has affected me more than I care to admit.

In addition, my friend's reaction frightened me--because I've always thought of him as more intelligent, knowledgeable and politically savvy than myself. So...after a political stalwart gives up, it felt a bit lonely.

I do think, as you said, that all of us experiences the "go along/get along fearfulness". Maybe we feel it more than we want to admit. The question is...what do we do when we feel that?

Fear is being purposely instilled in us, from a variety of BushCo tactics. Terrorism is the biggee. However, they're being blatantly reckless with our futures. Look at the stories about bird flu, Peak Oil, mercury in our water, global warming, outsourcing, our exploding federal deficit, the claims that SocSec will be bankrupt, the erosion of the US dollar, etc. I sometimes feel that they're intentionally created havoc to discombobulate and upset us.

So what do we do with this fear--that they are attempting to instill?

That's the $64,000 question.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
97. BULLSHIT
You people fear the 'elite schemers' who connive to steal the world's wealth.

The very wealth we accuse them of wanting to steal has no value if we, the masses, have no hope of purchasing them. They cannot be rich without us having the werewithal to purchase or rent the things they 'own'. The rich need an economy much more than the poor -- you can be poor anywhere.

They need to maintain a facade of democracy, and of order.

When their economic principles deny enough fathers the ability to feed their children, the facade will fall.

Of course, this is easy for me:

I believe that the current PNAC type folks are simply greedy, selfish, misguided folks with a poor appreciation for history, sociology, and economics; I believe that they've forged an opportunistic union with right wing evangelicals; I believe that first-past the post elections devolve into a two party system; I believe that a two party system favors the status quo, and incumbent representatives; I believe incumbent representatives favor the status quo, to the point that the difference between the two parties is infintesimal, and largely cosmetic; I beleive that freedom isn't just an inalienable right, but rather seeking freedom is a natural human instinct; I believe that the Universe tends to unfold as it should.

Fuck these guys. They can't be everywhere. The worse it gets, the easier it is for us to recruit. I know die hard republicans who have left the party. I know people who worked for the Heritage Foundation who have left for greener pastures. Drip, whatever. Bush I was defeated in office. They're not infallable. Don't give them more credit than they deserve; treat them like the threat to freedom that they are, no more, no less.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #97
139. Hearing you on FM dcfirefighter.
After 5 long years the tipping point is in sight. Now is not the time for despair.
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queeg Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
98. Tonic for the blues.
Get in the pickup truck with my Confederate flag sticker on one side of the back bumper and my Dean sticker on the other--turn on Jerry Jeff Walker VERY loud (redneck mother)---Open Sunroof---stick (somewhat non-legal) AK-47 through sunroof---Drive through the streets of Austin firing on Automatic screamin Yee Haww Yee Haww the rethugs are GONE

that's got to give the few remaining neo-cons in Austin a bit of a pause, and I guarantee you that pipe dreams like that will put a smile on anyone's face.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:37 AM
Original message
We are the ones we've been waiting for.
NGU
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
102. i am going with your friend. i am not too worried about keeping mouth
shut. there will be a lot of people they go after before me. i am just a tad weary though of those airports, lol.
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parhelion Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #102
109. My Perspective...
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 02:18 AM by parhelion
I felt much the same as your friend after the 2000 coup and especially after the 2004 debacle. I've just recently begun to climb back out of my hole, mainly due to a renewed interest in my music writing and recording and especially my new daughter.

No one will ever accuse me of being an optimist, but I think it helps if you put things into perspective. Yes, the Bush Fascists have knocked us back quite a few pegs and it's definitely not easy being liberal or left-wing these days. But if you go back 100 years or so, and look at the atrocities that were widely accepted by the average American (Native Genocide, slavery), it doesn't look quite as bad now. Just look more recently at the Sedition Act from 1918 or McCarthy during the '50s.

I am painfully aware that these corporatists would love to take us right back to an Industrial Revolution-Era of human and worker's rights and they're doing their damnedest to make it happen. But unless they truly are Dominionist Xtians trying to bring on the Apocalypse (which I doubt), they won't succeed. As others have pointed out, the corporations can't make a profit if there's no one to sell their products to. As far as the "War On Terror" goes, I think they'll push it to the breaking point. When they have to start a draft, that's when the average American sheep will finally wake up.

I'm in my late 30s and I guess I've just resigned myself to the fact that for whatever reason, I've been doomed to live during a downward spiral in the U.S. - I had Carter when I was really young and 8 short years of Clinton; but other than that, it's been a constant losing battle for myself and my working class family with Republican regimes during most of my life. I can only hope that my daughter is able to see some positive change in her lifetime. Let's face it, the last great positive economic change in this country came only after the ravages of the Great Depression with FDR and the New Deal and the last great social changes came after the upheaval of the 60s. Seems that things have to get really, really bad before enough people wake up. It's no secret that those in power know that, but every tyrant eventually pushes it too far and the scale is bound to tip.

The thing that scares me the most though, is the fact that all bets are off if there is another large-scale terrorist attack here in the U.S. The "conspiracy theorist" in me feels that a perfectly-timed LIHOP or MIHOP terrorist attack would be all the Fascists would need to completely takeover. I just pray that it doesn't happen.

*edit for spelling
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lady lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #109
113. Self-delete
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 03:24 AM by lady lib
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #109
115. congratulations, parhelion
on the birth of your daughter!
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
107. I have friends just like that
Whenever I hear talk like that, I take comfort in the fact that the RWer's are human too, and that means that they can bleed and die like the rest of us. In England, when the ruling elites got too high and mighty, along comes Oliver Cromwell, and goodbye to the head of Charles I. The same with France, the response to "let them eat cake" was the guillotine. Same with Czar Nicholas II. Same with Ceaucescu in Romania, just a few short years ago.
What I'm getting at is every people have their breaking point where they just say enough. When that day comes, it will truly suck to be a Republican.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
108. He's wrong. He's probably bothered by personal matters & it spilled over
We should be mad and involved and start fighting hard right now. Let your friend work thru his concerns & depression. Be there for him and supportive, but don't buy into his despair. Things are going our way.

I'm very very sorry for your friend. I know what despair feels like. It's not fun. But it's usually temporary. Give it time and be an example to him of how you fight for what's right, damn the consequences.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lady lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #110
119. How have they gotten this far?
They've gotten this far due to election fraud and 9-11. Am I right? Let's talk about 9-11.

To be blunt, 9-11 is a fascist's dream come true. It united us against a common enemy and allowed the government to infringe on our civil liberties under the guise of "protecting" us. It squelched dissent by labeling dissenters as traitors and "soft on terrorism." And who wants to be soft? Certainly, not your Congressman who might be up for re-election. So for the past almost 4 years the B*** Admin has whipped out the 9-11 card whenever they want something. It's their ace. And with it they've silenced our collective voice and diminished our civil liberties.

Let's face it, it's a sweet deal for the right and they'll play their card as long as we allow them to.

So how do we fight this? Well, with the truth! Because the card only works if you BELIEVE your lying eyes. Suggestions:
1) Swallow the red pill.
2) Watch The Power of Nightmares if you haven't already. Link http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm
3) Read DU's September 11 forum and the links to numerous 9-11 websites. You won't be bored, I promise.
4) Definitely READ David Ray Griffin's books. He makes a strong case that the B*** Admin was complicit in the attack and he looks at unanswered questions of the 9-11 Commission. Books: The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions and The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11.
5) Read the Indira Singh interview. Link http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...
6) Start talking about this act of TREASON with your friends and family. Get it out into the public consciousness.
7) Keep talking about it. Share your books and website information. Slowly, as people come to accept this awful truth, we will have taken away their ace.

One more thing...
Another reason for getting this out into the public consciousness NOW is that like pigs returning to the trough, the B*** Admin. is going to want more. And in order to get it, they're going to need to engineer another attack. Seriously, what better way for them to declare Marshall Law and suspend ALL of our civil liberties than another devastating attack by the Islamic Boogeyman?

Think about it.

(Note: I asked the moderator to remove my other message because I wanted to edit it and the time period had elapsed. So this works, too.)
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hwmnbn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
111. Whoa!! Hold up!! ...... Your post SCARED me!!! ....
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 02:15 AM by hwmnbn
until I realized fear can be paralyzing. We may fear an unknown future, fear pain, suffering and death. That is our natural human condition. The cool thing is that our adversaries (neo-con freeper types) are also subject to those exact same fears, if not more so.

And an even cooler thing is that it's easier for us to overcome those fears because of our intelligence and attitudes. We are reality based, they are faith based. In my experience, reality trumps belief.

So if and when your impending tsunami does hit, it will hit everyone. It may get messy, but I like our chances, how about you?

Things are unfolding. No one knows how it will turn out, not even the powerful bogeymen with the terror alert head trips. So I won't freak out just yet, thank you. And guess what, you're not alone. There are lots more like us. :hi:
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
112. defeating them requires a team as broadly based & determined as the GOP
Journalists need to be safely able to speak truth to power & not get fired-& if they are fired there is a LIBERAL news job waiting for them. Al Gore is a fool!! What with his'it's a non-partisan news channel' crap! Look at what happened to the Republicans when they got out of jail from Watergate:they got book deals, book tours, speaking engagements, think tank jobs, consulting jobs-look at Michael Milken from the 80s Savings & Loan Scandal. The GOP has extensively networked, BUT we have witnessed this, so we needn't reinvent the wheel. I notice how they are very protective of their kind, finding jobs for them, helping to repair their reputations with a lot of good pr. We need judges who will not relent to the distortions of the laws, & who will recognize the lunacy of a lot of the recently passed "laws" & strike them down. Judges on ALL levels are needed-not just at the top. Scientists are being devilized if they don't toe the GOP party line-where can they go to get work? This comes down to BOTH short & long term goals, & people need to eat, pay their bills, etc. Their decisions will hinge on the immediate-lose your job if you're Liberal? With no place to go? Where are all the Liberal millionaires?! Where are the Henry Ford types?! A pooling of resources is necessary, obviously; we need storytellers, people who tell the Left side of the story because it's too quiet. Air America helps, no use asking why didn't they start this in the 1990s, with the GOP constantly attacking President Clinton. The long term goals MAY be sustainable living, clean air, clean water, clean soil, safe food, safe housing, justice for all, etc. The ways to get there ARE the short term goals: worker safety, student safety, creating jobs via monitoring & cleaning our water supply, creating jobs via forcing power plants to upgrade their equipment to the 21st century...like pieces of a puzzle it's all out there, just waiting for a leader to pick them up...
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
117. My 2-cent addition to this terrific thread
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 03:24 AM by snot
First, I wish could quote--but I can't seem to find-- a post on DU by, I believe, Diogenes17, quoting a passage from Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series, roughly to the effect that the authors of the Encyclopedia Galactica hoped not to prevent the onset of the dark ages, which had already become inevitable, but to hasten their end or the recovery from them.

Second, I'd like to suggest that we should take similar steps to compile our own information and insights for possible future users. I.e., we should never give up hope for the best, but we should also take action to prepare for the worst.

We should certainly not assume that all info that now exists on somebody's server will be available for eternity.

Among other things, we should strongly consider the possbility that our information, including just about everything on DU and all important links, should be preserved in multiple places and formats.
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dorktv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
118. Play Silent Running by Mike and the Mechanics...
for your friend...It gives me hope:

Take the children and yourself
And hide out in the cellar
By now the fighting will be close at hand
Don't believe the church and state
And everything they tell you
Believe in me, I'm with the high command

Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?

There's a gun and ammunition
Just inside the doorway
Use it only in emergency
Better you should pray to God
The Father and the Spirit
Will guide you and protect from up here

Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?

Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel
Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still

Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?

Can you hear me running (can you hear me calling you?)
(Can you hear me) hear me calling you?
(Can you hear me running) hear me running babe?
(Can you hear me running) hear me running?
Calling you, calling you


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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #118
170. in the 1980s I heard that very song & agreed,
then & now, with its sentiments. Thanks for mentioning it, I was looking for it the other day in iTunes & they don't have it! It gels too well with my nightmares, but it's looking more likely to come true every month.
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
120. It's a very depressing time ...
and every day I work with political issues trying to get people to see the truth. I remember JFK, Watergate, Iran-Contra - but Iran-Contra seemed to be the beginning of the end. Then Clinton came along and I thought I was wrong in my assumptions. Let my guard down and now we have this. The 2000 election, made it through that one without losing hope. After 9/11, I knew we had to have the 2004 election. But, when K/E lost it was an eye opener. I felt the '04 election would be my last fight because everything I believed in was on the line. I come here, read and sit up all night just to be with people who are not deluding themselves about issues. Every appointment, SCOTUS, bills, laws, they all have a pattern and that pattern leads to the truth. Fascism, is a word I can say now - although they are modern day, global, conglomerates of power. Most of the same people in position's of power since I was in high school.
The same names keep popping up. And I wonder, why if we commit a felony and can't vote - can felons be appointed to the highest office in this land. Nobody can answer this question, they never attempt to.

We are SO corrupt and drunk with power, even some of our own party.
And you have to wonder, will we have another election - and if so, what difference will it make looking back at the last two. You try and cling to hope, be busy, work on issues and think about our children growing up. You fight but expect the worse, but you rest awhile, come here and gather strength from like minded people. Then you just keep fighting, even though I want to give up now. I'm tired, I'm sick, my health is failing, and sometime I just want to fall asleep and really don't care if I wake up. Then somehow, I just keep plugging along - one day at a time, because of the children.

Right now I'm feeling, IF Fitz and the good guy's could just win out this one time - I would have the strength to go on. But, if this same bunch get away with treason - then our democracy is truly dead.
We've all been had by our country, how sad is that? And yes, I fear worse is to come - our worst nightmares become reality. Not a psy-op media driven nightmare, but that every thing we thought may be wrong or going on - is. Brash reality, it's really as bad as we think?



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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
124. I guess he and I just have different responses to the same thing
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 07:15 AM by tavalon
I know that we are right where Germany was in the 1930s and I know that we may not be able to save America, but I will not stop fighting. It's important to fight no matter what the outcome might be.

As an aside, I think your friend is soul-sick. Goodness knows, this slow steady decline into fascism can do it to any of us. In more psychobabble terms, I think he is depressed.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
126. He's right. But I'm still gonna piss in their cornflakes when I can.
The big thing when in a lawful evil country (we aren't in full blown chaos, still governed by authority and law) is make sure you don't get caught.
;)

And for strict originalists, there's nothing in the constitution that explicitly states that I cannot piss in the cornflakes of someone I don't like.
:evilgrin:
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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
128. I suspect he's correct.
Everything is in place; now all we need is some sort of "emergency", and things will tighten up.

By the way - I hear that California had rolling blackouts yesterday. Could the "emergency" be energy, instead of terrorism? Perhaps with some sort of rationing plan, or other control system? Gee, that means more control, more monitoring, more searches, doesn't it?

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nickinSTL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
129. This is probably one of the best threads I've read on DU
Great thoughts on the depth of the fascism, and whether it's in fact global, rather than just here.

I've been prone to a bit of the despair the OP mentions. More than once, I've talked of moving to Canada if the 2006 elections go to the Repubs. But, if it's a global descent into fascism, that won't help.

I hate thinking about leaving the country, but when you expect to be among the first to be sent to the concentration camps...(were it to come to that) it's hard to be quite so eager to fight.

I'm torn between thinking that the dire predictions of the OP are true, and believing that the tide is turning against the inept, greedy, corrupt administration.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #129
141. It's GLOBAL.
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Dragonfly Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #129
165. The quality of the majority of
these posts helps prove a theory of mine about the quiet and slow rise of "global spiritual-political patriotism." (So, yes, Karenina, I certainly agree with the broad scope mentioned in your brief but astute input.)

Spending 4 years in Canada ('75-'79) brought about a unique vantage point to observe America's changes in the immediate aftermath of Vietnam. However, all roads guided me back home to the Heartland after "the 80's research interlude."

Now, threads are appearing here which present passionately eloquent posters, cutting sharply thru couched nuance, laying bare selves on the cyberline to speak unvarnished truth for collective tide-turning.

I saw another poster recommend Paul Rogat Loeb's latest book. Nice one; I concur wholeheartedly. Another one that opened me up to "allied possibilities" is "A Man Called Intrepid," by William Stevenson. This book is a must-read for those curious souls intigued by cloak and dagger aspects of WWII geopolitics. It could give one hypothetical insight into some of the wild-planet-jazz occurring at the moment, too.

My sense is that autumn is going to bring a lot of tangible resistance to PNAC strategy, from too many sites and directions (globally) for their scouts/innermost cabal crew to decipher and/or defend against. In a best-case scenario, it'll be reminiscent of the Battle of the Little Bighorn back on June 25, 1876, minus all the bloodshed.

Guess we'll find out, by and by.

(BTW, ad hoc, modern-day cross-generational/cross-cultural "watch teams" probably work 'round the clock to see that it definitely won't get to the point where those "concentration camps" you mentioned sprout up in our remote outback country.)

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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
134. When you really get into it pathos can be a very satisfying
quality!
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
143. it's been a long war

and a lot of the combatants are mentally expended.

Look at the Civil War. Very few troops of the Army of the Potomac thought there was much, if any, chance of the war ending within the year in March 1865. The storming of the Petersburg defenses at dawn on April 2, 1865 was approached with an incredibly fatalistic and defeatist attitude on their part if you look at the letters.

By that evening they were sure they'd won the war and were themselves invincible. They then caught, destroyed, and captured Bobbie Lee's army in a week.

Let's just say that the Union generals at Petersburg had a far more realistic, accurate, and optimistic assessment of their side's situation than most of their troops did prior to April 2, and a more cautious and sharp one after April 2.

Your friend is rather the same way as the folks in the Petersburg trenches who convinced themselves that this state of siege and suffering without concrete prospect of victory was the final state of things.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
144. Pull your endorsement of the enterprise
If you agree with his assessment, that the nazi's are back in full force,
then it is your obligation to not support them with your taxes and
passive presence. As even supporting the democrats is just paying in to
this ponzi scheme, and suspending its collapse.

Pretending that fillibustering roberts is gonna change anything is the
microcosm, and you can pursue that political action from abroad, once
you've disconnected your life from the soviet threat in washington.

These neocons are in power because they feed on the liberals to survive,
and if we pull the plug they'll go down the drain. Yet so many would
rather pretend, and "lie low" as this man suggests, like so many jews
tried to do in nazi germany... and for what did that achieve.

The only way to defeat them is the total destruction of the economic
imperium that pays for the military death star. And this starts with
*you*.
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WMliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
146. I agree with him.
I'm young and I'm gathering as much education and skills as I can now. I'm gonna stay here and fight for it as long as I can. But if it goes on like this, be ready for political and economic mayhem within the next couple decades.
It's part of why I study the Great Depression and its worldwide effects, as well as the American ones we all know so well. Many countries did away with democracy. Even here, anti-democratic forces had a good chance at upheaval (Roth's Plot Against America is a terrific foray into what easily could have been).
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
147. ttt
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 01:00 PM by Blue_Tires
I'm still considering living out my life in another country, if i can ever save up the $$$$
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
148. Synchronicity
I'm on the same wavelength, sadly. I've been reading "Crossing the Rubicon" and even if I don't agree with all his conclusions, or even if just don't think Peak Oil is going to devastate the economy in my lifetime-it doesn't matter. I basically cannot let go of 9/11. It led to the Patriot act, to losing our liberties, to IRAQ and all those deaths, those evils, the torture of people in MY NAME to make me "safer" to making the Dem leaders we have go along to get along even more than they ever would have.

I cannot let go of the fact that I am collateral damage to my own government. I no longer believe anything they say. Maybe I'm selfish-because I know the US government has done horrible things to people all over the world throughout history-but here-in a city I once lived in, in a building that I once worked in-that no longer exists-and all the questions my government won't answer and will never answer about the death of it's own citizens make me unsure how I can let it go.

It's never going to be okay for me until the truth about 9/11 is revealed. And the chances of that are? All we need is one more attack and the Dems and everyone else will sacrifice every liberty..and hell that isn't even going into the ECONOMIC attacks that the middle class has taken in the last 20 years..that the Bush cabal and his go along to get along Dem "enemies" have helped push through. NAFTA, breaking of the Unions, the bankruptcy bill..the tax cuts..on and frigging on.

Oh since I believe Kerry actually would have won the election if the votes were counted, if the people that wanted to vote could have, if the computers weren't in control-how can I respond to the crap on DU like "Who's our 2008 pick going to be?"

It's a joke. I'm not laughing. As some of my favorite local cable access guys have said (and strange damn synchroncity-he's reading Crossing the Rubicon at the same time I am-I'm seeing those that were more moderate going all the way down the rabbit hole with me) who cares if Rove is fired or gone? It's not going to really change the power behind the throne. Does that mean the Iraq war will be over? Does that mean all our unanswered questions about fraud in the last election will be answered? Or we will find out who profited really from 9/11? Does it? How about the billinos missing from the treasury? From Iraq? Does sending another letter to Bush or a petition change a damn thing? No it doesn't. I do my part..but something much bigger has to happen to really change the evil where we dwell.
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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
149. They are TRYING to Make You Perplexed and Unable to Think
There have been many great comments on this thread, and I agree with many of them--especially about learning from history to get courage and strength, and to know you were not alone, and also the comments that it might have been psychological or as much about personal disposition as true political statement.

I think a large part of it, which I have experienced myself, is the distressing effect of these tactics (used by neo-cons, media, corporate consultants, etc.) coming at you for the first time, and that you don't even know where you are until much later during the attack. It used to be, before this current era of psychological studies and profiles--all for the most effective advertising and other anti-social uses--that a societal or political struggle was pretty straightforward, fought between two sides, pro- and con-, on the issues, out in the open, and the entire fight was conducted "outside," with debate, and marches, lawsuits, etc., you knew when you won or lost--and your psyche within remained intact. Now, with neverending corporate media propaganda changing the very meaning of everything, there is a horrible, distressing sense that you don't even know if things really exist as you imagine them, and that the corporate enemy is actually now invading right into your mind and erasing or reworking your memories of things that happened, and even the very question as to whether or not they did happen. It is all a highly calculated, manipulative way of advertising or "framing" that is designed to undercut your ability to think of anything other than what was presented to you, cult-like, rather than conducting an actual debate, on the merits, with your personality intact.

Every time the people defeat a fascist/corporate threat--winning workers' rights, pensions, a 40 hour work week, the right to strike, etc.--the enemy has always thrown the next crushing, oppressive shot a different way, that you never expected and can't prepare for. Unions are finally strong enough to fight the capitalist oppressor? We will hire consultants to turn people against unions, outsource all your jobs to poor countries where they murder union organizers, and replace your jobs with machines. Now what do you do? "Going on strike," which used to work, now suddenly doesn't.

It is very distressing and depressing when they defeat you a whole new way each time, you don't understand what is even happening, you can't fight it, or even think of it coherently yet until you can grasp it in your mind, and you can't fathom how it will be solved this time. Despair. Of course, it always happens this way--from the begining of time, they have thrown us a curve whenever we have won victories, and we will win again. I believe the despair is this horrible "in-between" time when we don't have it figured out to know how to orient ourselves to take our next approach, though.
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ladeuxiemevoiture Donating Member (668 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:15 PM
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150. I think he's overreacting, but we SHOULD be concerned
about the direction things have moved. Everyone has "down" times in their lives. Maybe he's in one of those periods.
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
154. The neocons want nothing more than this to take hold.
If our democratic leaders have been blackmailed into submission then the first to-do item is to take over the leadership.

We have the power. Not our elected officials. The challenge is great but we can prevail. We will prevail.

Hopelessness is toxic.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
155. I believe his assessment is correct, sadly, and the DEMS are part
of what needs fixed but I can't figure out what the solution is at this point besides waiting for a major disaster of some sort before people truly get off their arses and do something about it.
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
158. Recommendation
I highly recommend the book "The Impossible Will Take a LIttle While: a citizen's guide to hope in a time of fear". Edited by Paul Robat Loeb.

It's helped me stay in there.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:10 PM
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163. In what ways was he "light years ahead"?
Do you remember an predictions he made that panned out?

A lot of people are in despair right now. Does your friend have a good predictive track record?
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:27 PM
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164. I Actually Feel The Same Way So Much Of The Time...
It's going to take a long, long time to repair the damage that has been done.

I've begun to wonder if I still want to be called a Democrat. I'm Liberal, but so many Dems have simply wimped out. I plan on attending some Green Party meetings soon. Of course, if given a good candidate I will naturally vote Democrat and probably will anyway. I'm not so sure I will vote if the candidate is Hillary! I just can't put my finger on it, but I get such a hinky feeling about her!

I rarely watch regular TV anymore, only alternative TV, documentaries or movies because I have a DISH. I don't HAVE to watch regular TV because whatever THEY have to say will be the only thing that gets reported and it filters through no matter what.

I watched an extremely eerie program on HOW BushCo and the Christianinsanities have taken over so much of the government. Do you know that major funding is going to "faith based" organizations?? I could go on and on about who, what when and where but it had it's beginnings with "think tanks" in Washington. Some of the Government Agencies that get funded have had language inserted defining faith based policies and what it will do for you. If this isn't a direct insult to the Constitution I don't know what it.

Behind the scenes they have insidiously inserted their point of view and beliefs into almost every aspect of American life. George Lakoff talks a lot about how to use language to counter them, however we are where we are now! It is truly scary!!!
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really annoyed Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
167. I get this feeling every single day...
I have a very empty feeling for the country I call America. I don't know where she went, and I don't know how to get her back without destroying myself in the process.

But I'm young, and have a nagging idealism I can't get rid of.

I fight between these two extremes pretty much every single day.
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democratic veteran Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
168. Even a liberal
can be wrong. Your friend is wrong here. We do need to fight.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
171. major kick . . . for a majorly important thread . . .
many, many people feel the same as TwoSparkes' friend, and overcoming that is where the war will be won or lost . . .

fascism will ALWAYS be defeated by those it enslaves . . . unfortunately, that usually happens after the absolute depths of hell are reached . . .

what we're doing here it trying to speed up the process so we don't have to experience the fullness of hades . . .
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
172. I often feel the Same as your friend
But then I look at my little girl and realize that I need to do whatever I can to make the world a better place for her and her generation.

Also I'm beginning to realize the US isn't nor ever was the idealistic country I once thought. Reality is a bitch.
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CitrusLib Donating Member (748 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
173. "For myself I am an optimist--it does not seem to be much use being
anything else."

- Winston Churchill (I so dig him. He's so quotable!)

Another quote to contemplate:

Optimists are right. So are pessimists. It's up to you to choose which you will be.

- Harvey Mackay

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The Sleeper Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
178. Over ? Sir, you give them too much credit....
They've fucked up everything they've touched. If widespread protest or other civil disturbances occured, the bastards would respond like they always do; clumsily, and in a heavy handed manner. We WANT them to overreact and rely on their arrogance to guide their judgement. That's the Ghandi way, to get the other side to show beyond a shadow of a doubt what they truly are. Then they are finished,.

It will be a long fight. Our great advantage is we already KNOW who they are, and their hubris deludes them into thinking they've got us pegged. By the time they realize this, they will have already lost.....


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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
182. kick (n/t)
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
183. Orwell would've had a lot to say on this, I bet. No, not how you think.
If you read his essays, not just 1984, you realize that as bleak as his own vision was (and why not?) he was at least as critical of the intellectuals of his time who said essentially what your friend said--to wit, that the dominant trend will be the trend forever. He didn't have enough in his personal makeup to see past that mentality clearly, but he was sharp enough to see what was wrong with it.

What's wrong with it is that we *all* see through a glass darkly, as it were. And while it's true that seeing human nature through rose-colored glasses is a mistake, it's equally a mistake (at least) to go too far in the other direction. There have been a lot of surprises over the last half-century or so, and not all of them for the bad, by any means.

Orwell himself was convinced, with the rational part of his mind (or so he thought), that the chances of an atomic WWIII *not* starting in the next few years was slim. Some of that belief was colored by his own personality (a depressive with a decidedly unloving/safe-feeling childhood, he also had chronic physical ailments that led to his death in 1950, just a few short years after seeing his wife into her grave); a lot of it had to do with the climate of the times. A *lot* of people would have agreed with him; and frankly, the smarter you were, the more likely you were to see just how grim the picture was.

And yet, somehow, it didn't happen. Not that way, anyway. Orwell didn't forsee the 60's, or the crumbling of the USSR. Maybe he could have...if he'd been looking for it. Or maybe there are some things that aren't apparent at all except in hindsight.

None of which is to say that things were rosy these past fifty years; just that things rarely, if ever, turn out exactly the way you expect them to. And that while being smart and well-read are wonderful qualities, they don't necessarily add up to wisdom.

Go with your own wisdom, not your friend's, not ours. You do have it, you know. Everyone does.
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