60 Minutes: "One out of every 75 men is in prison."

[Spectral]

This is the highest in the industrialized world. And 58% return. 60 Minutes is following the journey of one ex-prisoner in a new kind of program that helps him readjust. The ex-con is addicted to cocaine.

I wonder how many of that 1 in 75 men are drug abusers.

[Spectral]

1. The counselor called the ex-con "an addict, not a bad guy."

How much of the prison population is just drug addicted? Drug offenders are not allowed to live in public housing.

[amazona]

4. nobody's "just" drug-addicted

Because drugs are illegal and the price is inflated, drug addicts steal. The majority steal, cheat, and con their friends and families and so never face charges for their actions because we break down and enable them, but they do create great financial as well as emotional havoc to all who care about them. There's a point at which you actually hope someone will be jailed just to get him out of your hair, indeed, I'm at that point now with a couple of people. :-(

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Spectral]

6. That seems to be this guy's MO

I am still watching the program

[minnesotaDFLer]

2. think about it

all the money we could save by legalizing drugs, its ridiculous, not to mention if we taxed it. fucking unbelievable, and all the people who would get out of jail. fucking unbelievable.

[TnDem]

8. A concept

Well, here's a concept...How about don't use illegal substances and then correspondingly, don't go to prison? It's all choices and personal responsibility. I am a Democrat at heart, but I have seen what drugs can do to a person and a communuity. Legalizing them means nothing because that fact makes no difference to the user other than he won't steal to buy them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

10. In democracies

one has the right to say that law XYZ is wrong, and try to change it. Pointing at someone punished by a law one considers unjust and stating, "This is wrong!" is a fundamental trait of a democracy.

"Don't do the crime, don't do the time"-like arguments deny that, and are therefore fundamentally anti-democratic.

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. The arguement is democratic when

the voters elect representatives who have made illegal (and refuse to legalize) drugs.

BTW, I'm on you side when it comes to legalizing drugs. But unfortunately I don't believe that society is ready for that yet.

[firefox]

15. That would be the utopian theory

It is like the absurd NCLB act. You can not legislate success when that success ignores the reality of the human condition. The "just say no" philosophy ignores the principle of freedom for one thing and ignores human nature and the physical body which the drug laws exploit for purposes of social control and the CIA control of nations with the direction of all those inflated profits.

We do not care about Afghan opium as the CIA supported the opium traders to finance opposition to the Soviets. Production was near zero in Afghanistan until we wanted it to increase. We care about excess production bringing down prices. The CIA is the biggest drug dealer on the planet. Really.

It is a big subject and the "just say no" is an absurd thought-stopping expression meant to end discussion.

[kineneb]

16. Yes, there should be personal responsibility, but

In many cases, drug use is self-medication to mask profound personal problems. Just like a lot of vets were and are alcholholics and/or druggies because they can't face the horror of their own minds. I have seen it in my own family. The substance doesn't matter so much as why they are taking it.

[Ronnie]

23. "a Democrat at heart"

????????????????

[Mnemosyne]

25. My thought exactly. n/t

[Igel]

27. Does "Democrat in appearance" strike you as better?

Diversity's not a bad thing, and not everybody has to fit into the right category.

We're all progressives here, not obligatorily members of the Orthodox Progressive Order of North America.

[Mnemosyne]

43. Sorry igil, but I heard Nancy Reagan in that post.

"Just say no."

How could anyone feel "democratic at heart" and post such Reagan era platitudes?

My first instinct was to hit alert and I have rarely done it before. Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt usually as a first reaction and a willingness to hear diverse opinions. Spouting right wing talking points is not the kind of diversity I am here for.

I just don't see the diversity, unless you count enjoying lock step thinking.

How is putting people in jail for an illness progressive? If you have a reasonable explanation, I'll willing to listen.

Peace to you.

V

[Nikki Stone 1]

44. Just say no doesn't even work with chocolate on the long term

How is it supposed to work with cocaine?

How long do people stay on diets usually? A few months?

[Mnemosyne]

60. Depends on how broke you are in this economy!

See I was attacked in post #54. Guess I'm just a damn "librul".

Forget scientific facts. Throw them all in jail for life, there is no redemption or recovery possible.:wow:

:hi:

[TnDem]

46. Actually....

Nancy Reagan be damned...I have seen with my own two eyes what Methamphetamine can and does do to people's lives. It is horrendous. With my vocation, I am intricately involved with it, so I know where I am coming from. Drugs should not be legalized period IMO. This scourge has ravaged our county in Tennessee.

Ergo, if they're not legal, they're illegal. I don't buy it as a sickness. When is it ever simply the person taking the drugs' fault? Explain that simple fact to me..In your mind, never...It's always a "sickness" or some other defection of responsibility.

[Nikki Stone 1]

47. With addiction, there is a point where there's a chemical dependency

I don't claim the same for chocolate, or I'd never diet, but many drugs cause a chemical dependency that cicumvents the will. That is what most people mean by sickness.

[ProudDad]

54. Actually most of the addictive

drugs have been proven by experiments to effect the same centers of the brain that chocolate and sex activate.

That's why it's so fuckin' hard to kick some drugs for some folks. It doesn't have SHIT to do with "character" or "choice" or "will power". Again, it's simplistic pablum to make a blanket statement otherwise.

I've seen much more than you have about what the clandestine drug trade has done to people and am convinced that the best first step would be decriminalization -- take it the fuck out of the legal area and into the public health area where it belongs!!!

[Nikki Stone 1]

55. So I have an excuse for my chocolate addiction!

Seriously, I agree with you. You end up fighting your own chemicals. That is what is so insidious.

[Mnemosyne]

58. You obviously need to do some medical research.

Addiction is a disease. That is a scientific and medical fact. And if you are intricately involved, it must be through the court. It is obviously not in the medical field. Maybe you should educate yourself on addiction. Yes, it is horrendous, but you have the attitude that there is NO redemption for those addicted and only prison is the answer. Judge not, lest ye' be judged.

Does it make the destruction caused from it any less horrendous? No, of course not. Does it make the addict less responsible for the devastation they cause? No. It does no good to imprison those that are ill, they need treatment and rarely get it in prison. As a matter of fact, drugs are widely available in the prison system. You have a very narrow view, maybe you would enjoy another site.

Don't tell me what is in my mind. You have no clue what I have seen in my life. Sorry you can't convince me to lock-step with your draconian thinking. But I have seen the devastation of addiction, more is caused from alcohol due to it being "legal". You may be intricately involved with the destruction caused by meth, but it does not negate scientific fact.

Bye Nancy.

[raccoon]

26. well, if everybody who used illegal substances

went to prison, some people who are now in high places would be in prison.

Another thing, a lot of people who have a mental illness "self-medicate" with alcohol and/or illegal drugs. Prescription drugs too.

[Hippo_Tron]

28. What exactly is wrong with doing drugs?

I know people who are addicted to one substance or another and they are doing just fine. It's a lifestyle that they have chosen and I don't see a problem with that. I don't see why society should dictate that people who don't do drugs are morally superior to those who do drugs, that one lifestyle is better than the other. I especially don't see why the government has the right to tell people what they can and can't do in the privacy of their own home.

[gulfcoastliberal]

57. Well put.

Hippo_Tron makes an excellent observation.

[alarimer]

61. Not all drugs are created equal too

You don't have too many pot smokers robbing banks to support their habits. I can get behind the idea of legalizing pot (it does have many useful qualities) but I am not sure about the rest. Still, prison for addicts does not strike me as a good idea. They go in as addicts and come out hardened criminals.

[steelyboo]

33. Because prohibition and abstinence are the policies we are following as a

country now, and we see how well thats working.:eyes:

[minnesotaDFLer]

35. its a personal decision

why should he go to jail for makin a personal decision on his own life like that.

[Don Claybrook]

36. So tell me, TnDem

You wouldn't happen to be Harold Ford, would you? OK, beside the point.

I'm wondering--do you think people should go to jail for smoking marijuana?

Thanks.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Not when the death penalty is cheaper.

:sarcasm:

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Here's another concept, Jack:

How about what consenting adults choose to do with their own bodies in the privacy of their own homes is NONE OF THE GOVERNMENT'S FUCKING BUSINESS?

...Whoa.

Most of our "drug war" dollars go to fight marijuana. Surely you've seen those roving gangs of potheads, breaking into homes to finance their habits- at least when they're not holding up Krispy Kremes for free donuts..

We had crime during prohibition, too-- centered around the illegal alcohol trade. But, really- I'm glad you think it's such an effective use of your tax dollars to blow twenty billion a year on enforcement, along with untold amounts for incarceration, for a system whereby rapists and murderers are let out to make room in cells for non-violent drug offenders, who constitute some HALF of our prison population.

[ProudDad]

53. You obviously

don't know much about addiction.

"It's all choices and personal responsibility" is simplistic pablum to dismiss a rather more complex set of problems... As someone in recovery, I could give you a lot more information about this problem.

You should do some research before deciding that the phoney "war on drugs" shouldn't be ended. It's obviously causing more problems than drug abuse but, of course, noone has the spine to suggest that if what you're doing isn't working maybe it's time to try something else.

De-criminalizing drugs would take the financial incentive out of the trade. The drugs themselves are cheap. I've been to Amsterdam where their drug "problem" is nearly non-existent, their big "crime" problem is bicycle theft. Take out the money and you remove nearly all of the crime...

[Massacure]

45. It would be a disservice to legalize drugs.

Marijuana probably got unfairly stigmatized in past years, but there are some drugs like meth that do not deserve legalization.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. "probably"? There is no legitimate reason for criminalization of pot.

And it accounts for well over half the "drug war" budget. You talk about the "drug war", you're mostly talking about pot. And Meth is made from LEGAL ingredients..

Maybe the thing to do is throw some of that money into eduction, and not the bullshit lies-and-propaganda kind we have now. The best advertisement against meth I've ever seen is meth users themselves. But it's hardly the 20 Billion-a-year DEA gravy train that is keeping people from doing meth.

Furthermore, I think we need to revisit the notion that the government has any business telling consenting adults what they can or can't do with their own bodies. Drive a car, rob a bank, neglect your kids.. yes, then you're a criminal just as you would be if alcohol was involved in any of those activities. But turning millions of otherwise law-abiding citizens, millions of whom magically manage to use many of these substances recreationally without it destroying their lives just like many (but not all) people are able to enjoy the occasional martini or beer without becoming alcoholics.. that is the real "disservice", and it's wrecking millions of lives with draconian mandatory minimum jail sentences in the process.

Standard disclaimer: I, personally, haven't done ANY drugs, including alcohol, since my "reckless youth"... But even though Mr. Jack Daniels nearly killed me on several occasions, I don't think locking up every person caught in posession of a fifth of booze is any kind of rational "solution" to the societal chaos caused by alcohol - despite the fact that I consider it far and away one of the most dangerous drugs out there.

[ProudDad]

51. And the tax money

that would be available for treatment programs...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

3. Half are black.

Think about that.

[Spectral]

5. The guy they are following is black

What is amazing to me is that this criminality is almost entirely drug based.

[gratuitous]

7. And yet, after locking up all those men

We still seem to have crime. And after all those folks have been executed in Texas and Florida, they still have murders.

I wonder if we're going about this war on crime in the most efficacious manner?

[Dr.Phool]

9. Think about the 58% return rate.

You get out, you can't get a job driving a cab. Laws are passed to keep ex-felons from holding a lot of different jobs. The only choice they have is to take a minimum wage labor job or go back to crime.

[Spectral]

11. That's one of the things the program didn't go into

But I'll bet even some minimum wage places won't hire you either.

[Joebert]

19. As much as I hate Wal-Mart.

They will hire an ex-convict.

My brother-in-law did something very stupid. And then got railroaded by local police into a sentence that was outrageous.

When he finally got out, the only place that would hire him so he could at least buy groceries, was Wal-Mart.

He applied for dozens of jobs, nobody called back after they saw that he did time.

Now he is a manager, and they're beginning to save towards the future for the first time ever.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. You beat me to it.

The so-called war on drugs creates criminals. Most people busted for drugs are not addicts, but they often become addicts in prison. After prison, they can't get decent jobs and the temptation to turn to crime for their livelihood and drugs for recreation can be overwhelming.

I think that grass should be legal, and tax the hell out of it, and other drugs be decriminalized -- only the selling of them would be illegal; possession would result in detox, if necessary, and counseling, but not a criminal conviction that can sabotage their future.

Understand, however, that the sabotage is exactly what the crusaders want. That's how they can disenfranchise 30% of black males, maintain a culture of poverty and create scapegoats. The RW LOVES drugs. After all, it was the CIA and the Reagan administration that gave us crack.

[kineneb]

18. It started with Nixon's "Southern Strategy"

He wanted to disenfranchise black southerners, hippies and anyone else who disagreed with him.

[raccoon]

24. thank you for pointing out

that the "War on Drugs" disenfranchises a lot of black males.
I think that's one of the covert reasons for it.

[AirAmFan]

12. Racial disparities in incarceration are ASTOUNDING!

See official DOJ statistics online at http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t627.pdf :

Among all men, the rate of incarceration at any moment in time is 0.915 percent; among white men, it is 0.465 percent.

But among African-American men, it is 7.3 times the white rate, at 3.405 percent!

When you look at cumulative incarceration rates (ever incarcerated since age 18), these point-in-time racial disparities become overwhelming. And, in the South, ever having been to prison often means LIFETIME disfranchisement.

[Spectral]

14. I heard it was bad, but I didn't know it was that bad

Racial profiling is alive and well.

[AirAmFan]

17. Systematic data on crime and punishment generally are not available,

so "smoking gun" evidence on reasons for racial incarceration disparities are not forthcoming. But one promising hypothesis is that many laws, written in ostensibly race-neutral language, have had PREDICTABLY discriminatory effects.

For example, many states have "drug free zone" laws that step up penalties considerably for drug dealing within 500 feet of a school, any public building (including public housing), or any park open to the public. Since there are 5280 feet in a mile and 20 blocks per mile in many cities, this works out to a radius of about two blocks within which drug dealing leads to considerably more severe penalties.

You would be hard-pressed to find ANY areas in predominantly minority urban communities that are not within two blocks of at least one school, public building, or park. But in most suburbs where blacks are hard to find, "drug free zone" laws have much less percentage coverage.

And while evidence is scanty, what evidence there is overwhelmingly supports the notion that "drug free zone" laws do little or nothing to deter drug dealing within the zones--see, for example, http://www.jointogether.org/sa/files/pdf/school_zone.pdf . The only effect of these laws seems to be much harsher penalties for black drug dealers than for white drug dealers for the same crime.

[burrowowl]

21. Are

they being forced to work, is this slavery!?!?
And how much of our tax dollars go to paying Corporations operating prisons?!?!

:puke: :mad: :puke: :puke: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Of course it's not slavery.

After all, the cost to incarcerate an average prisoner is $50,000/yr, so the prisoners earn that room and board; plus they earn an additional $.50/hr for their work; that works out to about $51,050/yr. That's a better than average income.

That's our justice system for you -- providing $50,000/yr jobs for millions of unfortunates.

[Vinca]

22. Can we make it 1 in 74 and

add Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and a host of others to the prison population?

[Spectral]

30. Your lips to God's ears

We can only hope

[rman]

29. So ehm, that's not counting the women...

More then a few girlfriends of drugs dealers are behind bars while their man walks free, because his stash was hidden under her couch and he could make a deal for reduced sentence by implicating her.

The (privitized) US prison system is growth industry number one. The more inmates, the more valuable the stocks.

http://www.change-links.org/warondrugs.htm

The War On Drugs: Part I: The winners
http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/vpro/tegenlicht/bb.20030622.rm?title=Bekijk%20de%20uitzending%20WAR%20ON%20DRUGS%20DEEL%20I%20in%20realvideo%20BREEDBAND%20tot%20500%20kbs

The War On Drugs: Part II: The losers
http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/vpro/tegenlicht/bb.20030629.rm?title=Bekijk%20de%20uitzending%20WAR%20ON%20DRUGS%20DEEL%20II%20in%20realvideo%20BREEDBAND%20tot%20500%20kbs
(Realvideo)

[Spectral]

32. Lots of women are in prison because they had the wrong boyfriend

and have no information to sell. This is really important. Thanks.

[Asgaya Dihi]

34. Documentary

American Radioworks did a documentary about how the prison system has turned into a for profit industry with their own lobbyists and such, it's as good a view from a single source as I've seen.

Link to an hour long "full audio" in the resources near the lower left hand side of the page as well as slideshow and text links. Links to related topics at the bottom also if you have the time.

http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/corrections/index.html

[AirAmFan]

37. Well over one out of every ELEVEN black men age 25-29

are incarcerated at any moment in time, compared to one out of a hundred white men in that age group. See http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t627.pdf .

And when you get down to neighborhood levels, some predominantly minority areas must have MAJORITIES of their young men in state or federal prisons at any moment in time. This is MADNESS, and the silence about it in national policy discussions--ESPECIALLY at DU and other supposedly "progressive" venues--is deafening.

[Nikki Stone 1]

42. You are absolutely right

And this does get ignored

[Kellanved]

38. Another question: what would the unemployment statistic look like ...

...were those people included. Probably a lot like the one found in European countries.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Of course, with legalization we could put them to work

in the pot fields.

[ProudDad]

49. Over 70%

of all people incarcerated have substance abuse problems.

They ain't winning their bullshit war on drugs, are they?

[lonestarnot]

52. They "ain't winnin' their bullshit war on nutt'n!"

[ProudDad]

56. You've got that right

They couldn't find their asses with both hands...

[lonestarnot]

50. ewww maybe I should go to prison!

[OneTwentyoNine]

59. But,but...didn't EVERYONE feel sooo safe when Tommy Chong was in jail?

That had to be the most ridiculous bunch of crap I'd ever heard. FBI makes a BIG bong bust over at Chongs house. They throw him in jail because of autographed bongs.

Meanwhile GEORGE W.BUSH has had THOUSANDS KILLED over his LIES and is our fearless leader. Gawd,what a fucked up country this is.....