enough is enough!

[flaminbats]

Attacking the new Pope is insane, an act of political suicide, and shall only lose us Protestant and Catholic votes. I don't agree with every word in the bible or even spoken by God. Nor do I believe that any single human can be a spokesman for God or Satan.

Republicans are using this issue brilliantly, and Democrats are only falling into a deadly trap! If this does not stop..our party is history. Why are we attacking someone who will ultimately be judged by his actions? Every attack we make only weakens our message, that no one's character shall be judged in real democracy based on a religion. :banghead:

[seabeyond]

1. because this pope is going to attack our very party i assure you

because in time you are going to see with his inflluence and what the fundies and catholics have created ............ that very end you are talking. this pope isnt missing around. he already influenced election with kerry. bush got more catholic votes than ever

think

kerry catholic
bush fundie, catholics heathen

catholics in large numbers voted bush

[mikehiggins]

3. Catholics may have voted for Bush but

it wasn't because the Pope told them to.

And there was no overwhelming show of support for Bush across the nation, either. An honest count in several situations could easily have resulted in President Kerry, so don't misconstrue what happened as Catholics doggedly toeing the Vatican line.

Just think about how many Catholics use rubbers and have abortions and you'll have a good idea how thin an influence the Church has on who Catholics vote for.

[seabeyond]

7. i dont get why it just cant say the cardinal interfering

in our election was wrong. i cannot understand why a religion has to so tightly be protected when it is against the very jesus we are bashing each other for. when it is against self interest. when it is against seperation of church and state. when it is gods law against constitutional law. i dont know why, it cannot just be said that a cardinal sending letters out to priests nation wide, telling a fellow catholic that he cannot have communion is wrong. i dont know why you feel you have to excuse and validate and justify.

you can own what isnt right in your religion and still honor and love the religion. but this religion does effect me, a non catholic. check out some of the things catholics are getting done thru out this nation. it effects me, a non catholic

why am i the bad guy because i call catholics on it.

this lady said, why are you picking on catholics. i havent told catholics how to live. they are telling me how to live. i am the one being picked on by catholics, of late.

[mattclearing]

8. Exactly.

Speaking as someone with personal experience with the Catholic church, you are right on the money with rubbers and pro-choice, if not having abortions.

At least half of American Catholics look at the Vatican and see a foreign, alien, relic.

Kerry would have done well to call American Catholics to a higher morality than that which the Vatican calls Catholics to.

He would have carried the Catholic vote had he fought for it.

Catholics are more liberal than most people realize. Even if the Church itself isn't.

[KansDem]

35. Really?

My wife works with a woman who voted for the amendment to the Kansas constitution prohibiting gay marriages a few weeks ago. She knew it was wrong but she felt as if she had to because of what her church told her to do.

Yeah, she was told how to vote. Many Christians were told how to vote. You can't reason with people like these. Logic escapes them. Their belief in Christian mythology is too strong...

[flaminbats]

6. so what?

let him be judged by other Catholics and those who believe in God or Gods. Let us be judged by all voters regardless of their religion

[Inland]

2. That makes too much sense, and is too practical.

Now let me tell you all my thoughts on religion and get in a big ass fight over metaphysics while Repubs win another cycle of elections and people die because of it.

[mattclearing]

4. What does the Pope have to do with politics?

Isn't that a personal thing? Why do Democrats have to get involved?

I say let stupid Republicans try to align themselves with the Almighty and watch them look foolish when they fall short.

The Democrats are, and should be, the party of real people with real faith and real flaws. Not some "Sunday redemption" bullshit religion.

Honestly, we shouldn't even talk about it.

How about, "When you guys are finished with your bullshit morality, we'll get down to the business of running the country."

Jesus.

[Inland]

That also makes too much sense.

Too much sense in this thread, not enough argument over religious beliefs!

[zanne]

28. What does the pope have to do with politics? Are you kidding?

What do right-wing Evangelicals have to do with politics? How can they possibly change the way we live? Come on, now! We've been playing innocent long enough. The pope interfered during the Kerry campaign. Is that not politics? Besides, the Vatican is more political than Congress! Always has been.

[ugarte]

5. By all means let's get straight with our groupspeak

Do you really think undecided voters come to DU, see anti-pope stuff and decide to become Republican? Oh, please...

[flaminbats]

9. I hope you are right!

we should be giving voters reasons to vote Democratic. Attacking the Pope for more votes is like killing innocent Muslims to win freedom. :eyes:

[Inland]

11. Isn't it bad enough if they stay undecided?

Or did we win the last election?

Not that I would complain if there were a point. But there isn't, beyond the shallow gratification of a few that want to have a religious argument for whatever reason.

[ugarte]

12. I think there is a point

Ratzinger has said pro-choice politicians like John Kerry should not be given communion. Speaking as a Catholic, to me that's outrageous, and I think most Americans feel as I do, so, no, I don't think people should be silent about that.

[Inland]

25. And if he had said that, you would have a point.

But he didn't. What he said was hardly liberal, but he didnt' say that.

Nor do I think that valid points shouldn't be made, when you have them.

But to pretend that any old shit can be thrown and nobody notices and the goals of democrats and liberals won't suffer as a result is wrong. Just saying.

[ugarte]

29. Please look at this link

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

[laylah]

26. Archbishop Burke of St. Louis made the statement...

Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis has said that he would deny Communion to Kerry; several other American bishops have stated that politicians holding such views should not receive the Eucharist.

http://web.ask.com/redir?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftm.wc.ask.com%2Fr%3Ft%3Dan%26s%3Da%26sv%3Dz6f53720b%26uid%3D08C0A68E477CC7124%26sid%3D1696FFE0BA4056624%26o%3D0%26qid%3D775298F8CAC7374D838602A8780CB14F%26io%3D0%26ask%3Ddid%2Bratzinger%2Bsay%2Bjohn%2Bkerry%2Bshould%2Bnot%2Breceive%2Bcommunion%253f%26uip%3D0c4a104c%26en%3Dte%26eo%3D-100%26pt%3DCardinal%2520Ratzinger%2520says%2520public%2520figures%2520who%2520dissent%2520from%2520Church...%26ac%3D24%26qs%3D0%26pg%3D1%26ep%3D1%26te_par%3D219%26te_id%3D%26u%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.tldm.org%252fnews6%252fRatzinger.htm&bpg=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.ask.com%2Fweb%3Fq%3Ddid%2Bratzinger%2Bsay%2Bjohn%2Bkerry%2Bshould%2Bnot%2Breceive%2Bcommunion%253f%26o%3D0%26page%3D1&q=did%20ratzinger%20say%20john%20kerry%20should%20not%20receive%20communion?&s=a&bu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.tldm.org%2fnews6%2fRatzinger.htm&qte=0&o=0&abs=Cardinal%20Ratzinger%20says%20public%20figures%20who%20dissent%20...%20Church%20teachings%20should%20not%20receive%20Holy%20Communion...%20of%20the%20presidential%20candidacy%20of%20John...&tit=Cardinal%20Ratzinger%20says%20public%20figures%20who%20dissent%20from%20Church...&bin=&cat=wb&purl=http%3A%2F%2Ftm.wc.ask.com%2Fi%2Fb.html%3Ft%3Dan%26s%3Da%26uid%3D08C0A68E477CC7124%26sid%3D1696FFE0BA4056624%26qid%3D775298F8CAC7374D838602A8780CB14F%26io%3D%26sv%3Dz6f53720b%26o%3D0%26ask%3Ddid%2Bratzinger%2Bsay%2Bjohn%2Bkerry%2Bshould%2Bnot%2Breceive%2Bcommunion%253f%26uip%3D0c4a104c%26en%3Dbm%26eo%3D-100%26pt%3D%26ac%3D4%26qs%3D0%26pg%3D1%26u%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmyjeeves.ask.com%2Faction%2Fsnip&Complete=1

That said, as a recovering Catholic, the selection of Ratzinger reminds me of why I left the Church many years ago. Nobody, but NOBODY, has the right to dictate anything concerning MY body. Along with that, this man has enough verifiable baggage (re: protecting pedophile priests for one) that I, for one, believe Jesus weeps over this reprehensible choice.

Jenn

[ugarte]

30. Please look at this link

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

[zulchzulu]

10. The Rat can stick it when the sun doesn't shine...

Whether the Repugs look at it as an opportunity to furthur their quest for a theocracy, let them try.

The Vatican made a STUPID choice. Ratzinger was complicit with saying that Kerry should not recieve communion because Kerry is NOT a theocrat and an anti-choice zombie. Ratzinger wants to further the Hitler Youth lesson that homosexuality is evil.

Bring it. Moderate Catholics will most certainly show their disappointment with the Vatican's choice. The Neocon Theocratic Zombies would vote for a rat if it had an (R) next to its name on the Fox Opinion Network. Fuck them...

[flaminbats]

14. Fine..let him cut his own damned throat!!!

But why should we cut ours?

[zulchzulu]

15. There's a way to do it...recognize the Pope...but disagree with him on...

..isues like gay rights, abortion, etc.

What you and I say on the new Pope and his hypocrisy is for us to share and even educate those willing to find out his agenda.

What we don't do is scream about the Pope. Keep the enemy guessing. Most Catholics are moderate that vote...they (me) are used to the usual Vatican claptrap, which the Rat is more than willing to continue.

If the Pope is against the War (maybe he is...) and such, it can be seen as an advantage when trying to swoon the moderate Catholic vote.

[flaminbats]

16. the Pope doesn't make our laws..

and the majority of Catholics don't wish him to, but this doesn't make Benedict XVI a neocon.

[seabeyond]

17. but the catholics in the u.s. are

The Republican dominated House passed the measure as dozens of Catholics looked on from the gallery. The Michigan Catholic Conference, which pushed for the bills, hosted a legislative day for Catholics on Wednesday at the state Capitol.
Conscientious Objector Policy Act

And they're having fun teaming up with the Fundy Pharmacists, too:
While supportive of the new bill, the South Dakota Catholic Advocate Network (CAN) is fighting to see abortion outlawed completely.
I could go on...

[roguevalley]

13. I don't agree. I don't know ANYONE who is for this pope. Check

out www.salon.com as well. Heavy weights weigh in. Frankly, I think we have to STAND UP FOR WHAT WE BELIEVE against all comers, popes, pugs, anyone. NOT standing up is how we got in this mess. As for BASHING the pope? His positions deserve it. Fuck the pugs. The country will be with us when his directives start flying. He's a head of state. He's not exempt. Ever.

[NVMojo]

18. this pope is up GW's arse ...I'll attack him all I can!!

[flaminbats]

19. Why not take a photo?

:shrug: it'll last longer

[OneBlueSky]

20. better to speak the truth than to succumb to political expediency . . .

because the truth, in the end, will always prevail . . .

[NAO]

21. It worked out pretty well for Martin Luther

[flaminbats]

22. Martin Luther did not wish to be excommunicated!

ideally his reforms would have been accepted by Paul III, demonstrating that leaving is often more effective than fighting unproven beliefs.

[cindyw]

23. My main concern is that this pope inserted himself into the US election

by taking sides against Kerry. Why did a German Cardinal think that he should send a letter suggesting that Kerry not receive communion for his abortion stance? Since when is that okay. Now he's Pope. At least John Paul II was consistent. He was against abortion, but he also took a stand against the Iraq war. Why if Benedict could get involved in our election, could he not also take a stand against the war? Answer that for me and I'll concede my point.

[flaminbats]

24. let Benedict make all the endorsements he wants!!

it is not in our best interest to attack him..did Japan really benefit by attacking Pearl Harbor?

Morally justifying freedom, birth control, and peace shall achieve this objective.

[enough already]

27. JP2 also "took sides" against Bush

on Iraq. I guess people only see what they want to see. I agree that attacking this Pope is counterproductive. He's a non-entity.

[cindyw]

31. John Paul criticized the war when it happened. Kerry has been pro-choice

and Catholic for some time. If the rebuke of him and others was not an attempt only to influence an election, we would have heard it sooner and still be hearing about it.

JP commented on an issue, when it was happening, not suddenly during an election.

[flaminbats]

34. Would John Paul's endorsement had swung the election for Kerry?

Something tells me the Catholic Church had little influence in the last election. Before the Catholic Church can be a growing force in American politics, it must stop limiting its membership to diehard neocons.

A denomination shall only grow if it welcomes people from all political camps. It is foolish to transform any Pope's flaws into our party's handicap. :shrug:

[cindyw]

37. It was all over the news that someone in the Vatican was saying that Kerry

should be denied communion. People talked about it. The media talked about it. It sent a message to the average person who cares how good of a Christian you are, that Kerry was not a good Christian. I think certainly it did have an effect. For Catholics, it sent a chilling message. Vote for a man who would be denied communion and you are doing something sinful.

My guess is that if JP had not been sick, this would not have happened. The message during the election came from the Vatican in general, not from JP. Now we know it was ratzinger. I don't think JP would have interfered.

[tinanator]

32. yes sir! will there be anything else, sir!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=3&u=/ap/20050420/ap_on_re_eu/pope_s_university

[cyr330]

33. That's a load of shit

Kissing the ass of "his holiness" is not going to buy us any more Catholic voters than dissing him will. That fucker has already come out against us in the last election, so why should that aging Nazi do anything differently this time? I categorically refuse to avoid bashing him; he deserves every lash he gets.

[flaminbats]

36. Why not just switch dominations?

I hate Domino's pizza..but why waste my time attacking it? I'll just eat at Johnny's or Pizza Inn. I may be a descendant of French Huguenots, but how will attacking the Pope improve my life?

[tinanator]

41. how does attacking the disappointed improve your life?

not only are you apparently a loyal subject, but some sort of enforcer?

[flaminbats]

42. excuse me?

God called on me to attack ;)

[Joebert]

38. Yep, makes it easy on the folks on the radical side of the Repubs

"Look at all the godless people attacking the Pope! What did he ever do to them?"

As you know, when Hannity can dismiss any argument by invoking Lewinsky as worse than setting puppies on fire, anything goes.

It doesn't matter that there may be facts behind what people are saying about the Pope, his policies, or the religion as a whole.

We're a long way from being able to say "I disagree with the Pope." and having somebody reply "I respect that, but disagree with you." Civility is gone.

It's akin to saying the war is bad, so you hate the troops. A <> B.

I would think the message should be, huh, there's a new Pope. Nice. Moving on... How's things in the Muslim world? Hindu? Atheists? Ok, moving on. Next up, economic discussion...

[flaminbats]

39. look at those neocons demonizing us liberals..

sorry, but no communion for you!! when will neocons view freedom of religion as a positive thing? Once it becomes politically accepted to group fellow sinners into categories of Godless or Godly, why even have a God?

[Joebert]

40. Sure God/Jesus spoke of Love

But they really meant, we only love people who think I'm in charge. And God likes a winner. Ask the professional athletes who say so, then do cocaine, beat their wife and couldn't POSSIBLY work for the $x,000,000 I promised I'd work for...


The radical Christians are just like the raidcal Muslims that twist the jihad of Islam.

They're not of the faithful, therefore, it's cool.

I wonder how the people that want the 10 Commandments in every building would take it if it was proposed to put #5-10 up, leaving out #1-4 since they are the overtly religious commandments that exclude all other religions by definition.

Compromise that supports both sides. There are Commandments on the wall, but none that say one religion is right.

[sleipnir]

43. He is being judged NOW! You have failed to notice his past "actions"

The time for the judgment of the pope's actions, as you call for, is happening as we wait:

*His failure to stand up to the Nazis as a young man.

*Support of radical catholic, conservative doctrine. In one instance, leading to the deaths of millions of Africans from AIDS

*Intervention in American politics, by commenting that Kerry was not worthy of sacrament because of his moderate abortion beliefs.

*Steadfast in his belief that following other religions will condemn that person to hell, a theory that JP II had worked so hard against.


These are just a few of the actions he has already committed and they need to be brought to the forefront of the masses, so that perhaps he won't have a chance to make horrific decisions that effect all of the globe, catholic or not.

Attacking the new Pope is nothing new, and how are we going to offend the Protestants?! Please correct me if I've got my history wrong here, newsflash!, the Protestant branch was formed as a rejection of the Catholic Church! Ironically, Martin Luther's last straw was the enormous expense of building St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, which he considered opulent, a waste of money and further proof of the corruption of the Catholic Church.

Then a little thing called the Protestant Reformation happened, hence the name, a sign of protest against Rome. Any good Protestant is actually against the Pope and all he stands for. So why would they feel offended if people verbally attack the Pope?

The British papers are eviscerating the Pope and their people are lapping it up. Why? Well, we can thank Henry VIII for that one!

[flaminbats]

45. I have no problem with criticism of the Pope..

but it shouldn't become a partisan issue. The fate of our party or nation is not in the hands of any Church or religious leader, we are the collective makers of our own destiny.

[Eloriel]

44. Well it's a good thing the Dems in power aren't doing it, then, right?

Makes little difference what we do or say here. Not even our own party pays that much attention to us. :shrug: