I think Dean fucked up.

[Guaranteed]

I don't like saying it. I love the guy.

But this abortion thing sounds like a bullshit DLC argument- only this time we're dealing with social issues, which, oddly, DLC folks normally are fairly strong on. It was just a matter of time, though. DLC folks are born weaklings and compromisers. I'm just sad that Dean, presumably, is being influenced by them.

Anyway, this "it may be wrong but it shouldn't be illegal" argument isn't going to convince any middle of the road folks to come over to our side. It just doesn't have the strength of leadership behind it.

He needed to make a strong, direct argument for abortion rights- not saying that we think abortion is a GOOD thing, but that it's not WRONG. And it's not.

Personally, I think this is the first serious mistake Dean has made.

[dorktv]

1. Um we need to get people to stop thinking we like it first.

And I respect a doctor's opinion on it.

[wtbymark]

11. Vermonter weighing in

may I remind you that Dr. Dean was a conservative democrat from VT. He has personal views against abortion, but he's also a practical physician that understands the procedure needs to be legal. He's also against the legalixation of marijuana. Bummer on the pot issue but he will prove to be an excellent leader of the DNC.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

93. As a nurse who's pro choice...abortion should be a last resort

The procedure is painful and emotionally wrenching for the patient and difficult for the medical staff.

However, we need to make sure that describing abortion as the "last resort" doesn't turn into the "unacceptable resort". MKJ

[okieinpain]

122. male with a daughter, and yes I can vouch for the emotional for

the patient issue.

[uhhuh]

2. I disagree

He is taking the image of abortion out of the discussion. He is suggesting that the Democratic Party take the position that we support women and doctors making medical decisions, not politicians.

I think it's smart. This argument applies to ALL medical decisions, not just abortion and keeps people from thinking about babies, and instead, having an image of a woman in a consultation in a doctor's office.

It could work if it's done right.


He didn't say:"it may be wrong but it shouldn't be illegal", he said he didn't think anyone "likes" abortion.

I think the statement is similar to saying that noone likes heart surgery, but I don't think you should have politicians deciding whether you should get it or not. That is a decision for the patient and the doctor.

[Guaranteed]

37. I wasn't saying that was a quote- but that's the basic argument.

It MAY be wrong- just depends on who you are, but that doesn't make a difference. That's the argument.

[FreedomAngel82]

45. Yes

I remember hearing him say once that we're pro-choice not pro-abortion like a lot of the republicans spew. We need to get past the myth that nobody is pro-abortion but we are pro-choice for the woman to have her own decisions with the health care she wants. This is a decision between her doctor, her and her God (if she believes in one). I don't want Tom DeLay or Bill Frist or even Dr. Dean telling me I can't have an abortion if I think I should have one for whatever reason.

[calimary]

49. Good post. Look at his record. He's reframing it as a right - of women -

to make up their own minds about their health care. What could be simpler or smarter, or truer, than that?

This ardent pro-choicer is NOT at all disappointed. What he's talking about is REFRAMING the debate, not the basic issue itself. This is a labelling issue. A None-of-Your-Business issue. As it should be. And tapping into the anti-government response after the republi-CONS' Terri Schiavo fiasco by reframing it that way is not just a good idea, it's a GENIUS idea.

[Guaranteed]

51. Not gonna work.

You have to address the morality.

You don't say that you don't know whether it's wrong or not, or you're just not going to address it, and then say it's a matter of choice.

You have to address the procedure very directly, and SHOW people WHY it is within a woman's rights to have the procedure done, and why it's NOT WRONG.

[renaissanceguy]

108. No. That's where we're losing.

You simply can't legislate morality. Everyone has different morals. Why should one group's morals be codified into law, forcing the rest of the population to go along with it?

One can be both pro-choice and anti-abortion: She would never get one, but at the same time would never deny that choice to other women.

We don't need politicians deciding what is morally right or wrong. That belongs in the private sphere; everyone can decide their own values.

Instead, what he is doing is framing it in a higher debate: Do you want politicians making decisions for you, or can you make decisions for yourself? Both sides on the abortion issue (or other social issues) can agree on this one.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[Guaranteed]

109. We're losing, so run from it?

We're losing it because we're not addressing it.

[Sparkly]

114. We are NOT losing on that issue. n/t

[Guaranteed]

119. So then make the argument. nt

[Sparkly]

126. I did.

The argument is: the government should not interfere in matters that are private and personal, involving health and/or religion. In questions of "who decides," the answer is "the individual," not the government.

That's where a majority of people actually side in polls.

[Guaranteed]

134. No, ya didn't. We were talking about the

the morality of abortion. You're saying not to address it.

Now you're saying you've addressed it.

[Sparkly]

137. I thought we were talking about the issue of choice.

I'm saying don't argue morality. I'm not sure how many times I need to say that. Reasonable people can disagree on morality; but most believe women should have the right to make their own decisions (within limits set by law). So we are not losing there.

[calimary]

136. Utterly true, renaissanceguy. I like the way you put that. It's how I feel

and how MOST, if not ALL, of the women I know, feel as well. "One can be both pro-choice and anti-abortion: She would never get one, but at the same time would never deny that choice to other women." I got pregnant twice. I have two children to show for it. Period. I don't know what I would do if confronted with a pregnancy complication but, being an older pregger at the time, I did NOT rule it out flatly. I'm just glad I didn't have to face that decision. That said, it's not up to me to decree or dictate what another woman must do in such circumstances. It's none of my business. It's none of the government's business. It's none of the business of some flatulent, self-righteous male politician squatting along the Potomac, who will never know the complications of pregnancy. It's just plainly, simply, NOBODY'S BUSINESS.

GOP, MYOB!

[sandnsea]

3. It's a personal decision

between a woman, her doctor and her God. I don't know why we can't just stick with what we've been saying for ten years now. And fight more on the medical complexities and reproductive responsibility.

I don't actually blame Dean for this one, Hillary did it. Can't wait to hear her support state marriage amendments. If Bill thought it was a good idea, probably won't be long before she says so too.

[WLKjr]

63. Why is it most women including my mom I have talked to say the same thing?

You sounded just like her for a second.

[sandnsea]

69. Meaning what?

Not entirely sure what you're referring to.

[WLKjr]

78. I was referring to

"It's between the woman, her doctor, and god"

accept my mom usually leaves out the doctor part. Says it's none of his/her business either.

[sandnsea]

83. It can be a medical decision

Especially 2nd & 3rd trimester term abortions. The doctor part reminds people of that, something that is getting lost in the discussion and is really the most important part. If doctors have to fear charges of fetal murder, are they going to recommend abortions as soon as they would otherwise. What about the fact that all doctors aren't required to know how to do abortions. What kind of risk does that put women in, say at a local Catholic hospital that is the only one for 60 miles, like in my town. The medical aspect is important, which is why I include doctors. Besides, the whole point of legalizing abortions was to make sure they were done by qualified doctors instead of back alley butchers.

[vpigrad]

4. So Dean says one of the party's foundation beliefs is wrong...

what is he going to attack next? Social security? Health care?

I thought if anyone would stand-up for what's right it would be hime, but he appears to have sold-out like the rest of the party's leaders.

[FogerRox]

26. vpigrad--think it thru-- please-- If you dont want to ,then wait to see

how it plays out--you may be suprised, when Dean makes it Ok for pro lifers to vote DEm. Dean is trying to take this issue away from "them'. ANd turn it to the DEms advantage.

This is standard stuff really- Dean is going after "THEIR VOTERS".
VOters which are not traditionally part of the Repub, or Neo COn base.

They are potential DEms so why not invite then over?

THese efforts will deflate the Neo COn base--which is really only about 12%.

The bush leaners will be the 1st to turn to the good side.

[cestpaspossible]

28. Except, he did no such thing.

[Guaranteed]

38. He didn't say it IS wrong- he's just not defending it as NOT wrong. nt

[wyldwolf]

5. gimme a break

DLC folks are born weaklings and compromisers.

In so much as neo-left McGovernites are born uncompromising know-it-alls?

Dean (and both Clintons by the way) are 100% correct on the abortion issue. Let's keep is safe, rare, and legal and provide the education it take to see that it stays that way.

[rodeodance]

7. i think it is not a good idea to say it is 'wrong'

......Anyway, this "it may be wrong but it shouldn't be illegal" argument isn't going to convince any middle of the road folks to come over to our side. It just doesn't have the strength of leadership behind it.

[Sparkly]

21. Do you have a quote in which he said that?

Where did he say "it may be wrong but it shouldn't be illegal?" There are quotes around that phrase in the OP and your post, but I haven't found that in quotes of Dean.

[xchrom]

9. and centrists aren't know- it -alls?

no matter what -- legalized abortion is not centrist.

you can soften the image to make it more palatable for the average american{:freak: }-- but it comes from late 19th century feminism and radical health care needs for the poor.

[cally]

36. Could you explain your post

Are you suggesting that abortion comes from late 19th century feminist and health care needs for the poor? As you know, abortion has occurred throughout history and has very little to do with feminism or health care needs. Some of the rhetoric is from 20th century feminism and much of the promotion of birth control did happen because some wanted to reduce the number of babies poor folks have.

[wyldwolf]

56. well, we're certainly aren't

did you even read the post I responded to???

[Guaranteed]

39. Yeah, that's exactly the argument that's not going to work. nt

[wyldwolf]

57. I disagree

I think it puts anyone who opposes it into a corner. Who will say they aren't in favor of fact-based education to help prevent unwanted pregnancies and stds?

When they bring up "abstinence only" education, we have the TX study that show it has the opposite effect.

[markus]

6. Wrong is an awfully strong word

I don't disagree with where's he going, but he skating pretty close to the edge.

We're about to have a showdown with with uncompromising right, and now is not a good time to start to get too flexible.

I like it better when available and affordable are in front of unnecessary.

[cestpaspossible]

27. A word which Dean did not use.

[Guaranteed]

40. He didn't defend it as not being wrong. That's the point. nt

[Sparkly]

43. I wouldn't want him to say it IS wrong or ISN'T wrong.

That's just getting into a debate we don't need. I want him to say it's a matter of CHOICE.

[Guaranteed]

47. If you concede that it could be wrong, and in being wrong

it could be hurting (killing) someone else directly, you can't then say "Oh, but it's a matter of choice." THAT DOESN'T WORK.

You have to defend the procedure.

[Sparkly]

61. That's why we should steer clear of the word "wrong"

which, as far as I can tell, Dean did.

[Guaranteed]

88. So, when the Republicans attack it as morally repugnant,

we just ignore it? That's awkward.

Why not defend it?

[Sparkly]

98. The best response does not delve into right/wrong morality.

That's like engaging in a discussion of which religion is the One True one. I think it's better to stress the PRIVACY issue -- a woman, her God, her doctor. That's enough. Don't get into the rest.

[Guaranteed]

102. I'm totally against discussing religion on a political level,

but I think we have to address ethics, especially in this case. We're just avoiding the heart of the issue. Putting our fingers in our ears. It won't work.

[Sparkly]

103. For many, this IS a religious issue.

For others, it's quite the same as a religious issue, in that reasonable people disagree; in that the government has no place in it; in that most voters side with Democrats on it.

I do not want men in suits sitting around discussing my uterus -- that is exactly the point. I just want them to stick to the issue: it's not their choice. THAT is the issue.

[me b zola]

106. I agree with you, but....

...many of those for whom it is a religious issue are damned glad that it is a legal choice when it affects THEM (their uterus, their daughter or their son). I have seen this so often. I believe that pointing this out will do a lot of good.

The post Schiavo debacle polls pulled the veil back to reveal that overwhelmingly, even religious people of all stripes, do not want government in their personal life, & the number of fringe zealots are a much smaller group than what they or the media portray. That tells me that to reach an average religious person who in theory doesn't like the idea of abortion, instead of reacting to the right's spin on abortion, we should stick to our argument, and kindly remind them that they may very well one day be glad that it is a choice available to them.

[Sparkly]

107. I think we're saying the same thing.

It's about choice, and that's where the debate should focus.

[me b zola]

116. I'm glad we're in agreement, because I enjoy your posts!

:woohoo:

[Sparkly]

130. Nice of you, thanks!

:hi:

[Cuban_Liberal]

8. I think he's absolutely right

We need to reframe the issue: Dean's proposal is very much in line with the 'safe, legal and rare' position on abortion, which is very much a mainstream position.

[enough already]

15. This is a bad way to reframe it

Once you call it "wrong", you've lost the argument. This really is a tactical blunder by Dean.

[Sparkly]

22. But I don't see where he called it "wrong"

Anybody got a link to that?

[Guaranteed]

41. He didn't call it that. But what he's saying is that it may be wrong,

just depending on who you are, and he's not going to argue it either way.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

10. wait you're against rare, safe, and legal?

That's what Dean's been advocating...unless you want common, dangerous(coat hangers), and illegal?

[Guaranteed]

42. No, I just think that the "legal" part of that is pretty important,

and if we're going to keep it that way we'd better not be wishy-washy on the morality of the issue.

[AussieDave]

12. I don't like abortion one bit

but I'm certainly not going to stop any woman who wants/needs one - it's an intensely personal decision with which the woman must live. I couldn't even begin to feel or know what that must be like.

Dean may be heading in a similar direction - you may not like abortion, but ultimately it's a woman's own decision, period. Anything else is an unwarrented intrusion into personal freedoms, and must be sold to the public as such - Republicans keep screaming about the Government intruding into people's lives, throw it back in their faces.

[Rowdyboy]

13. The Doctor is absolutely correct.....Its a medical matter between

a woman and her doctor. Rare, safe and legal should be our creed.

Once again, I agree with Dr Dean.

[lonestarnot]

29. Me too...so how could this be remotely associated with a fuck-up? NOT

[Guaranteed]

44. That's not going to fly if you concede that abortion could be wrong. nt

[sendero]

14. Sorry...

... I agree with Dean completely, and not only that - I'll bet you if you did a serious. accurate well-designed poll of a large segment of American society you'd find they agree too.

Nobody but the pathological likes the fact that so many abortions take place. We just dont' think it's the government's place to control it.

"Safe, legal, and rare" is a sane position on abortion.

[Guaranteed]

46. It's not about liking it- it's about making it damn well known that

abortion isn't morally repugnant since it's within a woman's rights to remove a fetus from her body.

[Sparkly]

81. That is NOT what we should be talking about!!

Politicians should not be getting into the argument itself about "right and wrong." They should simply acknowledge that reasonable people disagree, and the law is correct in maintaining an individual's right to make the decision for themselves.

No, we should not be arguing with phrases like "remove a fetus from her body." I don't even like politicians TALKing about my body. Just say we all have the right to choose, and leave it at that.

I think Dean was correct.

[Guaranteed]

95. If it's wrong, why should you have the right to choose?

The Republicans are using terms like MURDER. You're going to respond to that with "We have the right to choose"?

The argument is that it's not wrong BECAUSE it's the woman's body. You don't just say, "Hey, it's my choice, right or wrong."

[Sparkly]

99. Not everyone believes it is "wrong" and again, Dean didn't say "wrong."

Most Americans do see it as a private issue, not one for government to get involved in.

There are Fundies who also believe they have the only way to God, and they'd love to legislate that. I don't think we should get into religious discussions with them, though. We need to keep talking about laws, government, fundamental rights to privacy. Some will never be convinced -- but on church/state as well as choice, most ARE with us.

[leesa]

16. He should be bringing in progressive ministers at this point to

make the case, along with using his physician's perspective. I got a glimpse of a Planned Parenthood conference this past weekend on C-Span and they had several ministers and priests speaking about the topic and the struggles women go through making this decision.

[ClassWarrior]

17. What part of "how we TALK about it" don't people understand??

I'm guessing it's the "talk" part.

NGU.

[lojasmo]

18. Please provide an actual quote....

I've not seen a legitimate source with the quote you've provided.

[mtnester]

19. I will provide a link with the ACTUAL quotes from Dean...

not a parapharased one as suggested by the OP

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050417/news_1n17dean.html

[Sparkly]

20. Thank you. I don't see the word "wrong" in those quotes.

I think Dean was completely correct in what he said, and correct in saying it! :thumbsup:

[mtnester]

23. I absolutely agree as well...

that is why I provided the quote on what he really SAID....not what the OP thought he was saying.

:)

[Guaranteed]

48. He wasn't defending it. It won't work. nt

[lojasmo]

30. Thanks. That's what I would hope for from one who says....

"Dean fucked up."

[johnnyrocket]

24. There are MANY complex, personal, medical, reasons for

abortion, there shouldn't be an 'angle' or an approach or a moderation, there should be a clear and concise conclusion that abortions have to stay legal to stay safe, for practical reasons abortions are NEVER going away, whether they're legal or not. Legal is better.

[cestpaspossible]

25. Dean didn't say what you are pretending he said.

Anyway, this "it may be wrong but it shouldn't be illegal" argument isn't going to convince any middle of the road folks to come over to our side. It just doesn't have the strength of leadership behind it.

He needed to make a strong, direct argument for abortion rights- not saying that we think abortion is a GOOD thing, but that it's not WRONG. And it's not.

Yeah, and Dean didn't say it was. Why are you pretending he did? Why didn't you include a link in your post to what he actually said?

[FogerRox]

31. yeah thats right--I dont think Dean fucked up--hes chipping away at

Neo con voters who are really middle of the road Repubs who sometimes vote for dem issues and or candidates.

Chip away MR. Dean. chip away

[Guaranteed]

50. It wasn't meant to be a quote. It's a short description of the

argument.

That's what it is. We're not going to defend the issue as not being wrong, but we're going to say it should be legal either way.

[lojasmo]

55. Your description was semantic chicanery. It's dishonest.

And frankly, I'm surprised it's coming from you.

We SHOULDN'T have to be defending the right or wrong of abortion. In an Ideal world, nobody would even have to get one. Nobody freaking wants one, and we've been painted as the pro-abortion party. It's utter crap.

[Guaranteed]

85. That's BS. You knew what I meant.

And, yes, we should be defending the procedure.

If you think you're going to get somewhere not defending it, you're kidding yourself. You don't defend abortion rights by conceding that it's wrong.

[cestpaspossible]

105. But you keep repeating

the falsehood that Dean conceded abortion is wrong even though it has been repeatedly pointed out to you that Dean did no such thing.

Don't you think that would tend to negatively affect your credibility?

[Guaranteed]

112. If you're not arguing against it, then you're conceding it.

That's the way an argument works.

[Sparkly]

115. Wrong. You're getting off the track in even discussing it as right/wrong

The point is, it's not something people can agree on or decide for others. It's a private, personal choice, PERIOD.

[Guaranteed]

118. I'm sorry, but your argument doesn't make sense.

You're giving no basis for your assertions, and just ignoring what they're saying.

These people say, "What you're doing is wrong"- some of them call it murder- and you say, "It's none of your business if it's murder."

NO.

You tell them IT'S NOT MURDER. THAT is how you defend abortion rights. You don't say, "I can murder if I want to."

[Sparkly]

128. No. Wrong.

You don't tell them "it's not murder," you don't say "I can murder if I want to," you don't get down into that level of discussion no matter how much they want it.

Again, that is like having an argument about religious beliefs. The point is personal freedom of religion without government inteference, NOT which religious belief is "right" or "moral" or "true."

Here too, the point is privacy without government interference. It isn't helpful to delve into whether one thing or another is right because there simply is no one answer, and it gets nowhere.

Has anyone ever convinced someone who believes abortion is murder that it is not murder? I doubt it.

[Guaranteed]

132. It's not on the same level as religious beliefs.

We're not talking about unobservable phenomena, here.

We ARE talking about a very difficult, complicated subject, but that doesn't mean that we just throw up our hands and give up.

And, yes, people have changed their minds about abortion. Years ago I was against abortion, but the more I talked about it- constructively, and addressing it in ethical terms- the clearer it became that it's the woman's right to do what she wants with her body. She's not a slave to the fetus.

We need to talk about this with people and put in the work if we want to bring people over to our side. There aren't any shortcuts. You have to do it right.

[Sparkly]

138. Says you.

We are talking about unobservable phenomena: souls, "life," creation, and yes religious issues.

You seem to have made up your mind what "we" need to say and do. Good luck with that. I completely disagree, and I think I've made that clear.

[Guaranteed]

140. No, we're talking about a medical procedure, remember?

We're talking about a fetus who is being supported by its mother in her womb. We're talking about whether or not the mother has the right to stop supporting that fetus. Clearly, she does.

You seem to have a problem with that concept, but it sure ain't religious.

[cestpaspossible]

129. Ok, in that case you are conceding that the earth is flat

I didn't hear you arguing against it.

I'm done with this pointless conversation.

[Guaranteed]

131. Yeah, that's totally the same thing. nt

[lojasmo]

150. I don't think it's wrong or right....

It's a medical procedure, necessary in some cases.

I'm not opposed to it, I don't favor it, but I'll support a women's right to chose.

And no, I don't believe that your statement was proper.


saying "dean fucked up" and then mangling a "quote" of his, totally changing the meaning of what he said is bullshit.

[cestpaspossible]

62. It is a false description of what Dean said.

You can read the transcript of what Dean said here

Dean did not in fact say what you are descibing. Dean did not say that abortion is wrong. You are not being accurate.

[Guaranteed]

86. That's not what I said.

I didn't say that Dean is arguing that it's wrong, I'm saying he's not defending it, and saying it may or may not be wrong.

[cestpaspossible]

104. Your description of what Dean said is untrue.

What you said was a misrepresentation of Dean's comments. Your characterization of what he said is inaccurate and false.

There is no more plain way to say it politely.

[Guaranteed]

110. No, it wasn't. He said he wasn't going to defend the procedure

on a moral level. That means he's not going to say that it isn't wrong. I disagree with that approach.

[Sparkly]

113. The point is: It's not for him to say that!!

That IS the point. Keep it on the level of personal choice; don't get sidetracked into a moral discussion of what you would do or I would do. The whole point is: it's everybody's own, personal, private choice.

[Guaranteed]

117. That argument only works if you're only directly hurting yourself.

It's not going to work with this one.

You're talking about a fetus' life, here. You can't just flat-out say, "It's nobody else's business if it's wrong or not."

Now, you CAN assert your right to terminate the pregnancy as a rebuttal to their assertions that it's immoral, but you have to address it on that level. You can't ignore it.

[Sparkly]

125. Who said ignore it?

Arguing the moral issue of which choice is right or wrong shouldn't be the focus. The point is privacy and individual choice, and that's where it should be argued.

[Guaranteed]

135. ?????

You're not even saying anything anymore.

[Sparkly]

139. :sigh:

I give up.

[donsu]

32. I agree - how many times are we women going to have to refight the

same war against those who think they have a right to tell us women what we can and cannot do with our bodies?

any softening by Dean on pro-choice gets a thumbs down from me.

pro-choice means just that: it's a woman's choice what decision she makes.

(you want bad mothers? keep making or convincing them have babies they don't want)

[cestpaspossible]

33. PLAYED BY THE MEDIA

like a fiddle.

There's a good example in the article in question, as well:

On abortion, Dean stressed he was not advocating that a party dominated by supporters of abortion rights change its views.

"We can make common ground with folks," he said. "The issue we need to debate is not whether abortion is a good thing. The issue we need to debate is whether a woman gets to make up her own mind about her health care or whether Tom DeLay gets to make up her mind."

After one meeting, Dean, surrounded by a phalanx of aides, blew past a group of reporters waiting in the hallway. Dean's stand did not sit well with Marcia Patt of Oceanside, who was waiting outside a door with a sign reading, "Don't abandon choice."

Patt, an activist in the North County Coalition for Peace and Justice, was angered by an article in USA Today in which Dean said "pro-life Democrats" should be encouraged to run for office.

"That's not the Democratic Party anymore," she said. "That's the party of the far right and that's the direction we're moving in when everybody starts talking about abandoning choice for women in the Democratic Party." link

So, Marcia Patt is according to the article, 'angered by Dean's stand', and according to the article Dean's stand is: 'he was not advocating that a party dominated by supporters of abortion rights change its views.'

What set off Ms. Patt's anger? She was ' was angered by an article in USA Today in which Dean said "pro-life Democrats" should be encouraged to run for office.'


So let's take a look at the USA Today article.

He said the party also should encourage "pro-life Democrats" to run for office.link

Really? Did he? If that's what he said, why are the quotes only around the words 'pro-life Democrats'?

The so-called-liberal-media strikes again!

[cestpaspossible]

34. Transcript of Dean's speech

Howard Dean: Thank-you. (Standing O) Thank-you. . . . Thank-you. . . . Thank-you. . . .

(Imitation of The Ahnold) I'm here to announce that I'm running for Governor of Caleeforneya.

You have three great candidates for Governor in California so I'm not doing that. I appreciate everyone being here. I really appreciate Art's kind words and his help. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate Mike Honda and what he has done. He is a complete team player and has been working his heart out, so that we can have some semblance of honesty back in Washington D.C. Mike we thank you very much for that.

I also want to make sure we recognize Alice Travester who is a Californian, who is Secretary of the Democratic National Committee. Stand up and wave. I can't see anything up here with all of the lights in my face.

I want to thank Alexandra Rooker the Vice-Chair, and congratulate both Art and her on their re-election a few hours ago. I appreciate all of your help a lot. If only California had been the first primary state. What I want to know is what is the legislature doing moving it to June 6th?

The first thing I want you to know is that this is not my chairmanship it is our chairmanship together. There is nothing one person can do by themselves. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I sought this office is because of you. A lot of people here are people who have not been to a Cal Dem convention before or have not been on assemblies before or consider yourself a Dem three or four years ago.

I watched what happened in California during the Assembly District elections a few months ago. Once again the grassroots got it before I did. I watched and I thought if you were going to reform the party from the ground up and I thought I'd try to help you reform the party from the top down.

Together we need to do a lot of things.

I've been really pleased by what I've seen in the last few months. People used to say the Democratic party was really not a party, just a collection of interests. That isn't true any more. The future of the country is threatened. We're going to do what we need to do and work with who we have to work with to make sure America gets back on the right track again.

The first thing we did was start to put organizers in all fifty states.

You have seen the last eighteen state Presidential campaign in America. We can't win if we don't campaign in all fifty states. I went to Mississippi a few weeks ago, because I think if you don't show up in a state, how are people going to respect you if you don't even ask for their vote? So I went down to Mississippi. The Chairman of the Republican party called me all sorts of names before I even got there, which is what your do when you don't have anything to show for having been in power for five years.

When I got there I found that 900 people were waiting to get into an 800 capacity ball room. All four former Democratic Governors of Mississippi were there, which is unusual because they usually run the other direction when a national democrat shows up. They are desperately hungry to win in Mississippi. They are hungry to win in Tennessee. They are hungry to win in Kansas.

Because the truth is there are no red states there are no blues states. There are only American states, and we all share the same values as Americans. Our problem is not that Americans don't share our values. Our problem is that we don't communicate what those values are very well. Our problem is not that we need to change our values. Our problem is that we need to talk to people in language that is relevant to their lives and not just ours.

Democrats are cerebral people. Sometimes we make policy, but

We don't communicate to people why that policy is important here.
We have a young pollster who did a fascinating poll for us.

Which among other things shows there is a group of people who have the highest level of anxiety that I have every seen in America. About one quarter of Americans are worried. They are worried about the President sending more of their jobs overseas than ever before. They are worried about losing their health insurance, even more than has already been lost. These people are one check away from losing their mortgage. One check away from having to go to a bankruptcy court. And yet they vote overwhelmingly Republican.

At the other end of that anxiety about economics, there is an enormous anxiety about their kids. These people are terribly worried about what they see coming across their television at their children, and they don't know what to do. They are worried about the Sheriff who just discovered the methamphetamine lab two counties over and they know it's headed for their school. They are worried about moral values. They are worried about gay marriage and abortion and all of that stuff.

But what they are worried about more than anything else is that they've already lost control of their life economically. The only thing they have left that they can't lose control of is their kids and their families. We need to talk to those folks. We need not to react to the backlash and the differences and opinions about gay rights and things like that, because that's the symptom.

What is real is the fear and we don't address it. We come across like "Well that's unreasonable, that's irrational." Then our next reaction is we have three programs that are going to help that: early child hood education, early intervention and universal health care. All good things. What they hear is "Oh, I see, you want to take over raising our kids for us."

We need to change the way we talk to folks. We can'tkeep talking to people talking from here. We need to talk to people from here. Seventy percent of Americans vote from here. We don't have to change our core values. I've been to Mississippi. I've been to Tennessee. I've been to Kansas. If you stand up for what your believe, people will respect you. We may not get one single additional vote from those states, but we will never again be demonized the way the President demonized Democrats.

We need to show that we respect folks. The best way to show we respect people in all fifty states is to show up and listen to what they have to say and understand them. Not that we should ever agree with a violation of civil rights or equal rights under the law for all citizens. That is a core belief for all Americans and certainly for every Democrat.

I think we need to talk about abortion differently. And I'll tell you just what I mean by that.

Republicans have painted us into a corner as being pro-abortion. I don't know anyone who is pro-abortion. I don't. They back us into getting into an argument over whether abortion is a good thing or not. Did you know there has been a 25% higher rate of abortion since George Bush was President than when Clinton was President? We can make common ground with folks.

The issue we need to debate is whether a woman gets to make up her own mind over what kind of health care she's going to get or whether Tom DeLay gets to make up her mind for her. That's the issue we need to debate.

When I was campaigning for this job I ran into a lot of women in the south who said they were pro-life. They would tell me "I wouldn't want an abortion and I wouldn't want my daughter to have an abortion, but I'm not sure if I'd want to tell the lady next door, if she was in a fix, whether she should have an abortion."

We call that person pro-choice, but she calls herself pro-life. The minute we start talking about choice, she's not listening to us anymore.

When we say this debate is about whether a woman has a right to make up here own mind Every woman in America has been told what to do by somebody else once in a while. Every woman in America gets that Democrats believe that individuals should be allowed to make up their own mind and that politicians in Washington will not make these decisions for Americans. (Standing O)

I want to talk about moral values for a moment. It is a moral value not to leave more debt to your children than then the debt that you encountered. That is a moral value. We have not seen one Republican President balance in the last forty years balance the budget of the United States of America. Borrow and spend borrow and spend borrow and spend. We can't trust the Republican party with our taxpayers' money.

Social Security is a moral value for people who have worked all their life. They deserve to retire with dignity. We ought not turn Social Security over to the same people who gave us Enron.

A strong defense of United States of America would be stronger if we continued to have the high moral ground in foreign policy. If we were only the admired nation that America was before George Bush took office. We would have a moral foreign policy and that would give us the ability to defend America. America is not going to be defended simply by having a strong military. We also need to have high moral purpose.

It is a moral value, as some of our evangelical friends have recently pointed out to conserve and steward the earth and the environment we were so lucky to have been given. Environmental preservation is a moral value.

It is a moral value not to cheat hard working middle class Americans by telling them that you've given them a tax cut when you raised their property taxes and exercised federal control over their schools. It is a moral value to tell the truth. It is a moral value to be honest in our dealings with others.

It is not a moral value to be reprimanded three times by the ethics committee and then trying to get rid of the committee.

It is not a moral value to have 204 judges confirmed and then try to get rid of 200 years of Senate precedent, to get the last 10 on the bench.

It is not a moral value to create the largest deficits in the history of the U.S. of America and have our creditors be those who may one day be our enemy.

It is not a moral value to threaten judges of the United States of America because they made a decision that you don't agree with.

It is not a moral value to insert yourself into the private and most personal life and death decisions of a family at a time of their greatest need.

We can't win if all we do is talk about the problems that the Republicans have given this country. We can only win if we have a positive agenda. And that positive agenda includes jobs for Americans that will stay here in America. That positive agenda includes making labor unions stronger, so that every American can have the great dream of making sure that their children do better than they do.

That positive agenda includes committing America to join every other industrialized nation on the face of the earth and have a system of health care that every single American is covered by.

Every one in this room is here because you were able to give some money to the Democratic party. Everyone one in this room is able to give some money to the Democratic party because for the most part, you're doing OK. You may be struggling , but you're doing okay. Thank-you for that too.

Everybody is here and can afford to give a little bit to the Democratic party because somebody, either your parents or their parents, or their parents, came here, or in the case of native Americans were here before we got here. You're here today as a success because somebody in that chain between those who came and those who are here tonight, benefited from a free and public American education.

What we will do as Americans is make sure that when the Democrats are back in power, that public education is supported. We will say no to Gov Swarzenegger's attempt to take $2 billion out of the education fund last year and break his promise by not putting it back in the education fund this year. Governor, keep your promise to the children of California and fund public schools. That is how we get ahead in America.

Governor, don't go down the same road as Tom Day We can't use any more corrupt Republicans in office in this country. Governor, give our children the $2 billion you promised to make our public schools a success. The school system has been harmed enough.

Education, opportunity, a health care system that works for everybody, including a middle class people who are afraid it may be bankrupted. an economy that relies again on budgets that are balanced. Imagine every Republican Senator voting no on pay as you go bill that Republicans put in. The idea that we would ever in our life time see Republicans become the party of fiscal irresponsibility to me is astonishing, although very little is astonishing in Washington any more.

We want to rebuild America. We want to rebuild America's infrastructure. Which is being gutted by a tax policy that forces states and municipalities to raise taxes or go without. We want to rebuild American morals so we care about each other again and can publicly say so again. You know Social Security is not just about money. Social Security is about whether we have responsibility to each other in our community or not.

We will make sure that we are one nation. And part of being one nation is including every body. Including everybody and being honest with each other again, and that won't be easy all the time. Democrats make mistakes. Lord we've made plenty of them.

We don't have that far to go. We got 48% of the vote after all of the mistakes we made. We don't have to do a whole lot to come back. All we need is three percent of the vote. Three percent of the vote to cast aside the propaganda of Fox News. Three percent to bring our health care policy in synch witht the rest of the world and three percent of the vote to take back moral foreign policy and be the shining example of opportunity and compassion and caring that this country once was.

Three percent to say to the people of California that we will fund California schools. Three percent to look ourselves in the mirror and say we are not leave enormous amounts of debt to our children. Three percent of the vote , we dcdan do it.We need four year campaigns in all fifty states. We need one other thing.

Some of you have heard this story before, but I'm going to tell it again anyway.

When I was campaigning for President. There was a lady in New Jersey who helped us enormously. She raised a lot of money for us. Very smart people including people from previous Democratic administrations and so forth. One of the guests was this woman's 30 year old daughter, who was a school teacher from Texas. We were talking about things and Church and State came around and everybody was talking about that. And all of a sudden the woman from Texas popped up and said "Governor, I don't agree with you on that, I'm an evangelical Christian we don't believe there ought to be separation of Church and State, we believe this is a Christian nation."

You could have heard a pin drop. Everybody was a little uncomfortable. And we changed the subject to something else and went on.

At the end of the evening I was saying good by to the guests. I asked her Tell me how it is that you happen to support me. You can't possibly agree with my views that a woman has the right to make up her own mind about her health care or that gays ought to have the same rights as everyone else.

She looked at me and said "we are deeply troubled by you views on gay rights and a woman's right to choose. But we support you for two reasons. The first reason is that our child has kidney disease. That means In Texas that we cannot get health insurance for our child, we can't get health insurance for anybody in our family. We think everybody ought to have health insurance.

The real reason we support you is that evangelicals are people of deep conviction and you are a person of deep conviction. What we look at more than anything else is not if you will agree with every single one of our convictions, but if something happens to our family or our community or our country, that the people who are going to make the decision to help us are people who will make that decision will not make the decision based on focus groups but out of deep conviction.

We can put money into every state and knock on every door, but the only way to win a race in American politics is to stand up for what you believe in. (Standing O)

The reason that this party is the party that has always led in times of change, and there are so few Presidents who you can think of on the other side who have really made a difference in America, is because there are a lot of people, not just political leaders in this party, but people who stood up to make a difference, at some personal sacrifice, and sometimes their lives, to say who they are and be proud of who they are and stood up for what they believe in.

If we say what our values are If we refuse to be bullied. If we inform Americans about what we believe instead of letting the other party do it. If we stand up and bring people to us, to lead towards change again, vote by vote, election by election, precinct by precinct, year by year we will take this country back for the people who built it. You are the people who built America. We want our country back. Thank-you very much. Thank-you. Thank-you very much. (Standing O)

So, BGL, where in this speech did Dean 'fuck up', as you put it?

[x_y_no]

54. Looks damn good to me ...

He's saying we need to frame this as the right of a woman to make up her own mind. Absolutely correct, as far as I'm concerned.

[renaissanceguy]

111. Looks even better to me.

He articulated what he's said all along... that we should stick to our core values of civil rights, and speak our hearts. He has a winning strategy by talking about personal integrity vs. governmental intrusion into our personal lives.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[Stinky The Clown]

35. This thread is like listening to a fucking Limbaugh show ......

Start with an untruth and keep hammering it until the debate is about the premise of the lie and not the fact that the lie is a lie.

Dean did NOT, as far as I am able to determine, ever say (quote) Abortion is wrong (unquote).

I think he's staking out exactly the right position on this. We have been called "pro-abortion" by many on the other side. That is factually untrue and defies logic on its face. Is there even one person on our side who **likes** abortion? Is there even one woman on our side who **looks forward to the pleasure and emotional uplift** of an abortion?

I dare say no one ... not one person .... is "pro-abortion". Doctor Dean is right on with this strategy. And those who see him as caving in on this issue are, in my view, completely delusional or irrational. Surely they're projecting instead of listening.

This is about changing the debate tactic, not changing a policy. Let's do some rational, critical thinking before we get that circular firing squad organized, okay?

[BlueIris]

52. RESPECTFULLY, to all Dean supporters,

I'm kind of shocked to read that anyone is surprised by Dean's statements about choice or the future of the DNC's support for abortion rights. One of the reasons I could not get behind Dean as the nominee was my dislike for the statements I read that he had made about choice, which were similar to the things he has expressed recently. I read what I read about Dean and his views in 2003. When I began working with them in the summer of 2004, the Dean supporters in my city told me that they were all aware of his positions on abortion--leading me to believe what I had read was accurate, not merely another unfounded attack on him. The Dean people I knew found the positions acceptable. I was under the impression that this was a known aspect of his worldview and candidacy for President.

[Generator]

53. I didn't know that and

After reading this thread and the other big one, I still don't know what to think.

Is Dean merely encouraging those that "dislike" abortion and condsider themselves pro-life but OTHERWISE would vote Dem that they are welcome to our party and we don't "like" abortion either.

Or is he actively saying, "Hey anti-choice Dem LEADERS c'mon down and apply to lead us all and we don't care if you want to overturn roe-v-wade 'cause it will never come to that anyway and there are more important things?"

I just don't know what he's saying for sure. And honestly, what I always loved about Dean was his bluntness. So I'm confused by being confused.

He's saying leave it to the doctors and the patient. He's also saying it doesn't matter if my state Dem doesn't really want to defend roe v wade? You can't have both.

[BlueIris]

58. And in addition, respectfully,

he's also not saying (unless I misread something and you want to correct me) that the laws MUST protect choice (and punnish those who break the law to obstruct it). Which is maybe what you meant when you said he seems to be saying it's okay if Dems at the state (and federal?) level want to not support choice through their actions at the legislative level.

[NYCGirl]

59. Respectfully, you might want to read the entire speech,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1730957

What in it do you dislike?

[CAMANY]

60. Not surprisng at all

Dean is centrist at best. Unfortunately many people in the party didn't bother to do their homework, thought we were getting someone progressive, and now we have a new DLCer at the helm. Kucinich should have been chair - absolutely no doubt about that. He can't win large offices, but he has great ideas for the party. Dean should be in charge of fundraising... that's about it. His campaign crashed and burned, and I hope he doesn't cause the party to crash and burn.

This is the same blunder bush made promoting the people behind iraq. When someone fu** up royally you don't give them a promotion. Deans failed campaign should have excluded him from party leadership by default.

[wyldwolf]

64. Yay for Dean!

Dean is centrist at best. Unfortunately many people in the party didn't bother to do their homework, thought we were getting someone progressive, and now we have a new DLCer at the helm.

I like him even better now!

[CAMANY]

66. Don't worry

After the DLCers lead us to defeat in 2006 dean will be ejected from his position along with other DLCers and we'll finally start winning elections again.

[wyldwolf]

68. excuse me...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm sure you can't wait!

[bklyncowgirl]

67. Er, Excuse me, I thought Kucinich was at one time opposed to abortion.

By the way, I think he's a good guy and a fine progressive.

[CAMANY]

70. "At one time"

At one time clark was a republican. What do you think about him?

DK is sincere and has changed. I note that's the only complaint you have about him. Everything he believes is 100% what this party needs.

[wyldwolf]

72. ha ha! Clark was never a republican!

[CAMANY]

73. Sure ok

You just keep wearing the rose glasses. Voting straight republican, and running as a republican "If rove had called me" certainly doesn't qualify one as being a republican.

[wyldwolf]

75. you're more than a little off

Voting straight republican

Not true

running as a republican "If rove had called me"

said in jest.

[wyldwolf]

71. he "changed his mind" when he decide to run a national campaign

... opportunist?

He's also for an amendmentment against flag burning and voted for the Iraq liberation act.

[CAMANY]

74. And clark changed his mind

and ran as a democrat when rove didn't return his calls. What do you think of him?

The lies just keep coming. DK did NOT vote to invade iraq. Got any evidence?

[wyldwolf]

76. unproven

whereas my assertions are proven.

like many politicians, Kucinich's record is mixed with relation to Iraq. He voted against conquering Iraq in October 2002 but had, however, voted for Sen. Joseph Lieberman's Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which "authorized" the American military to remove Saddam Hussein from power.

http://www.citizinemag.com/politics/politics-0309_antibush_kucinich.htm

uh oh...

[CAMANY]

77. Of course if you actually bothered to read

the resolution he voted for years ago you'd see it's ENTIRELY different than what passed in 2002.

Clarks a republican by his own admission. Cleary stated he would be if rove called him.

[Sparkly]

79. As already told to you, it was a JOKE.

:eyes:

[CAMANY]

80. Sure whatever

nt

[wyldwolf]

84. I never said it wasn't

I said he voted for the Iraq Liberation act.

Clark never admitted to being a republican. Show me a link.

[LandOLincoln]

123. He said it as a joke

and those idiots in the White House, missing the joke (much as you seem determined to do), checked the WH phone logs and announced gleefully that there had been no calls from Wes Clark to Karl Rove.

Proving, of course, that Clark had been joking about these mythical phone calls--just as he'd said all along.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Guaranteed]

87. I think he's just listening to the DLC idiots too much.

*cough* Hillary *cough*

He needs to be thinking for himself.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

90. Maybe you should write to him

and ask him ..if he is listening to the dlc types too much or if something else is actually happening.

[wyldwolf]

149. at least he isn't listening to the neoleft McGovernite morons,

[WI_DEM]

65. I honestly don't think so

The party is strong on abortion rights but I think he and others are explaining that we are a pro-choice party and we don't want to turn away people who are otherwise good democrats except for them being pro-life. He wants to emphasize that we are the big tent party and while our committment to choice is strong we respect the opinions of others--unlike the GOP.

[Guaranteed]

91. So, the point is that we're not going to force anyone to get an

abortion?

Does this really need to be said?

[Cha]

96. Of course, it needs to be said if

that's what the repukes are out there framing us into a corner as doing..and I wouldn't put it past them!

[Guaranteed]

97. This is starting to sound like Kerry's IWR justification.

This is not good.

[Cha]

100. No ..it's not..it's two different

things entirely. ANd it's not helpful to use hyperbole.

[Cha]

82. Okay..have you written to Dean,

yet.. to tell him what you think of his reframing the issue on Choice?

[Guaranteed]

92. No, but I should.

BTW, this doesn't sound like reframing. This sounds like capitulation.

We're just not going to defend the procedure anymore.

[madfloridian]

94. He would expect you to question it. Write and have your say.

Post at the blog, have your say. He has explained it to my satisfaction now, as I was concerned. No one reads what he says, just reacts to the media interpretation.

He said he is forming policy from the ground up. HQ are gathering all the info and grassroots suggestions, then he said they will come up with a consensus for a platform.

What a shame when someone is finally listening to us to not even really read the words he says. No one will agree with him on everything, and that does not bother him at all.... not when he knows he has done his best.

Those of active in DFA have been through times like this. He listens, and he cares....more than many of the others in the leadership have done for a while.

Go to the contact site, give your opinion.

[Guaranteed]

101. Alright, I wrote at the DNC website.

Don't know if it was the most effective place to do it, though.

[JohnnyCougar]

120. Howard Dean was spot on!!

And your analysis is off the mark. This is just what we need to win over Middle America! Go Dean!!!!

[serryjw]

121. I know NO ONE that is PRO abortion

Being PRO CHOICE has always ben our stance. It's a personal decision b/t the woman her doctor and her god....We need to be explaining this as a personal decision.

[w4rma]

124. Dean is right on target, except now he needs to do something with the term

"pro-life". Start talking about pro-life as an umbrella for alot of different pro-life policies that are related to life instead of being related to who has control over who gets abortions.

[madfloridian]

127. I am very proud of Howard Dean.

I don't always agree with him, but he is working his butt off. I see attacks from right and left now literally.

He is trying to reword the issues they have saddled us with. Give him a chance.

[madfloridian]

133. Watch this video from Naples tonight..about 21 minutes.

Then think about what we are doing when condemning the guy so much.
He gets huge cheers for his stances on abortion.
http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/news/article/0,2071,NPDN_14940_3710665,00.html

[MAlibdem]

141. No woman should be forced to have an abortion for financial reasons.

No woman should be forced to have an abortion for financial reasons. We need to support women with medical coverage and automatic paid maternity leave and subsidized child care and bigger child deductions for households making under $40000.

We need to make this about supporting the women and helping them bring Americans into the world. About making sure that every American child has the ability to succeed and be healthy and be loved and cherished.

But abortion must be legal. Once you remove the financial problem, however, abortion rates will drop. We will win abortion on this by rejecting their terms of the debate.

[Guaranteed]

142. It doesn't make sense to me that Dean wants to get down and dirty

and debate religion, Jesus and the Bible with the fundies, but he won't debate the ethics of abortion.

On the one hand you have your totally unsolvable religious issues, and addressing them conceding that they might have some relevance in our government (which they don't). He wants to debate that.

Then, on the other hand, we have the Repukes framing abortion as "murder," but we don't even respond to that. We just let that one go as they bully people into thinking that way.

I don't get it.

Come on, Dean.

He's starting to lose me. I think he's really getting corrupted, and he's bringing us along with him.

[madfloridian]

143. I think you know better than that. Been reading Counterpunch?

I am so surprised at this. It is going on at all the forums now.

People would rather bring him down early than see the party succeed.

You surprise me. The people in Naples cheered him for the same remarks you are condemning him for. View the video.

[Guaranteed]

144. No, I haven't been reading Counterpunch.

I just remembered the debating religion issue. Remember my opinion on that one at the time? I had a thread where I voiced my concerns about getting into a religious debate. I went along with it, though, because I trust him.

But now this. Mad, I just don't get it. He's doing it exactly the wrong way.

He should be strongly against allowing religion into government, and making the strongest argument possible for abortion rights. We're weakening on the social issues.

Remember this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1594960#1595200

and this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1594433

[madfloridian]

145. Saying he fucked up is over the line for you.

I would rather stay away from the religious issues, but where I live they are part of life. Where I live, abortion can be handled by talking about it other ways.

I live in the heart of the Southern Baptist region. I understand he is trying.

Saying he fucked up is out of line. I care about the party too much to go along with all the criticism here.

[Guaranteed]

146. He's making a mistake.

I think it's better that we call him on it so maybe he can do something about it.

[madfloridian]

147. I am watching, but he is doing ok on it.

There is stubborn, and there is mediating. He is the party chair of all of us now...he has it from all sides.

[Guaranteed]

148. I saw the speech. It was great.

I dunno. :shrug:

[OzarkDem]

151. Dean's right

He's finally putting the issue in perspective, not changing the party's position on the issue.

Excessive focus on this wedge issue has damaged our party and its time to stop letting R's throttle us with it.

Policy isn't changing and to characterize it as "wrong, but shouldn't be illegal" isn't consistent with what has been said.

Safe, rare and legal, with emphasis on birth control first is the best approach.