Does anyone else sense a meltdown of the Republican Party?

[mikelewis]

Who do we blame for:

High Gas Prices?

Outrageous Healthcare Costs?

Sluggish Economic recovery and now maybe a trend back towards recession?

Terri Shaivo?

Iraq?

Terror unchecked?

Less Police on our streets?

An attack on Social Security?

Things are starting to take a serious nose-dive in the Republican Party. This may be premature but if I were in charge of the party, I would be a bit concerned.

Imagine the RINO's in the party, what must they be thinking? What about the moderate Republicans who were just along for the power-trip? What about the corporations feeling the sting from high transportation costs and a tightening of the American purse strings? What about the Christian Right who feels that they abandoned Terri to murder? What about the crooks who know thier hands are soiled with dirty money and are watching, trembling deep inside at the attack on Delay? Are they feeling the heat?

Everyday, more and more people are realizing just how screwed up things have become. The delightful news is the Presidents Poll numbers but Congress... Congress's numbers have dropped even lower than the that little bastard. Try to imagine a strategy they can employ that will dig them out of this hole. I can't imagine one but I'm not that creative.

Will they back off the Nuclear option even though the hard-liners are demanding it? Will they offer up Delay as the sacrificial lamb? Will they begin a process of political cannibalism? Who can tell? All I know is, things are heating up quite nicely and I haven't been this optimistic in a long time.

Sure, our party has problems but they have played a pretty decent hand. They have managed to stay off the radar of public outrage because they appearantly have no power, which of course is silly. Reid told us he could shut down Congress, so they do have some juice left. They have managed to grab hold of a grass roots movement and setup an alternet media to get thier message out {the gossip of the American people travels faster than any newscast. Who was it that said a lie travels half way around the world before the truth even gets out of the gate?} The Democrats are playing weak when they know they are strong. Thier strength is bolstered by an ever-increasing amount of people dissatisfied with paying $2 a gallon for gas. Thier strength is in being the alternative.

I have heard many people call for our party to stand for something other than not being Bush. Well, right now, not being Bush may just pay off. When you only have two choices and one of them has screwed you in the anus with out so much as a reach-around, who do you turn to?

There aren't that many people who want religion in politics. There aren't that many people who want incessant war with rumors of attacking yet another country, maybe, possibly. I haven't met one person, not one single person,{and I meet at least three to four new people a day} who thinks privatizing social security is a good idea. At least once a week, I run into another person who believes 9/11 was an inside job. The people aren't buying this line a bullshit the right is spoon feeding us and without some catastrophic event that jerks the country back to the right, they have a lot of work to do to dig out of this hole they are in. Yes, it's beginning to look a lot like Christmas in the land of the free and the home of the brave. I'm not getting my hopes up though. They have done a lot of damage and they could still do a lot more before this battle is over. Things could get worse than they are now, yes, it is possible and maybe even inevitable. And they could still pull out of this nose-dive but today... today is looking pretty good from the cheap seats. We have a huge mess to clean up but it looks as though we may still be around to pick up the pieces of our broken democracy.

I'm glad I could witness these days though I wish they didn't have to happen. They have taught me lessons that will guide me through the rest of my life and have helped to define who I am and what I believe in. These days have taught me how to stand up and open my eyes. So for that, and only for that, I am grateful to the Republicans and I look forward to kicking the everloving shit out of them in '06. They are about to find out what a mandate is all about! Kick the tires and light the fires. Let the meltdown begin.

[napi21]

1. I think it's too seen to tell, and wishful thinking, but I sure hope

it's true!

[FreedomAngel82]

33. Me too

I do sense tension in the republican party. The real republicans I think are nervous of people like DeLay and the radical right since the whole Schavio mess. I think it's very smart that the democrats play this "weak" game so they don't get blamed and maybe something can happen to open investigations of things that Bush and his people have done. Whenever I talk to someone about issues I remind them that the republicans are in control and you can't blame democrats or Clinton. Sometimes I do wish that Reid and the others would close Congress down, that'd be nice, but then everyday there's something else new that comes out where the republicans are hanging themselves even more. So this is good news for 2006. They can't try to steal 2006 because, I hope, it won't be as close as last time. I still believe they stole 2004 but only were able to pull it off since it was so close. If more people vote democratic next year there could be a real chance to make changes and get rid of the neocons.

[MrModerate]

2. Republican strategy to defeat Dems in '06, '08, '10:

Lie, cheat, steal votes . . . stay in power.

They've got the reins: the BBV systems, the cooked tabulators, the preponderance of pubbie secretaries of state. And the gerrymandered districts (e.g., Texas) that put California Dems to shame.

Doesn't really matter what the people want.

[MazeRat7]

3. Meltdown ? No... more like business as usual.

Will this impact the party ? No. because they believe they are in the right. Will this swing votes ? No. Because 51% of America would vote for them even if they killed puppies on national TV.

So is this a meltdown... No not at all. This is what Joe America elected and I am sure he/she "sleeps better at night" because of it.

MZr7

[DUgosh]

5. Not if their cable has been shut off for non-payment.

"It's the economy stooooooooooooopid".

[MazeRat7]

6. You are correct... so lets see how they feel when gas is $5/gal....

and they can no longer pay for Faux News.... *grin..
Oh lord forbid, they might actaully have to "read" something to understand what is happening in the world (oops, my bad.. I mean "in the US" since that IS the world to them)

MZr7

[CAMANY]

25. But how will we fix that?

Gas will naturally rise in price forever due to the fact it is not an infinite resource.

The only thing the dems could do is invade as bush is doing which is not acceptable.

We could invest in alternatives, but unless we have a solid majority in congress the repubs will screw that up.

Basically if gas is $5 under the repubs it will be $5 under us.

[funflower]

64. $5 gas

If gas is $5, people will be screaming for alternatives.

[TruthIsAll]

22. 51% ? Don't you realize yet that Kerry won the election?

Mazerate, where have you been these last 6 months? Not at the DU Election 2004 forum. I never saw you post there.

The evidence is overwhelming that Kerry won by 52-47%.
Most people outside of DU just don't know it yet.
You apparently don't either.

Take a look at his:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1727248

When the truth reaches critical mass, there will be hell to pay.

[MazeRat7]

23. Licking my wounds after that FooBar election.....

You are right, I have been AWOL for the past months from DU. I have not watched one single MSM news broadcast and I have stopped reading most of my regular web sites and blogs.

In other words, I said Fuck It. People get what they deserve (I don't mean that toward the folks here at DU only the sheeple that colluded in this debacle).

Now I think I will retire back to the lounge or back into my music, just thinking about those fools in power and all the crap they get away with is bad for my serenity.


MZr7

[mikelewis]

30. Actually, a lot more people realize it than you know...

I install alarm systems and meet a few new people a day. I always, without fail inform them that this election was fruadulent. At first, there were very few who even accepted it as a possibility, now I have people telling me before I can tell them. Things are moving and DU has done a lot to help. It's very exciting.

[Jo March]

76. mikelewis, I run into the same thing!

I am "Ms. Election Reform" - I am one-note, talk about it all the time, annoying, in your face with it. At first, folks didn't want to discuss it for whatever reason. Now people are saying to me, "The election was stolen, you know." or "They stole another one."

It's great! I am beginning to feel hope again, which I started running out of in February.

[BlueIris]

35. Ah, TruthIsAll. What would we do without you.

I don't like "real" smilies, but: :-)

You're the best.

[Tigress DEM]

39. Thank You!

I'm always glad when someone else brings this up because I feel like I am jumping up and down on a dead horse.

Why did the other guy run away? I understand taking a break, but don't you think a DEM would be happy to be reminded that we won and that this whole 51% is a fallacy we don't have to buy into anyway?

I just don't get people who would rather blame others than listen to the truth and do something about it.

BTW - related post shows Conyers is supporting voting reform.

Shouldn't THAT be our major issue of the elections?

[AlinPA]

79. I agree. Plus they own the media, esp. broadcast. The religious right

is gaining power every day and flexing their muscles.

[ngGale]

4. Everybody I know in this red state who...

voted for Bush would do it again. We see the meltdown, but all Bush's base sees is God and prayer in school. Heard that said today, this is serious. Bush's propaganda has worked, they think we are the evil ones. <scream>

[Tigress DEM]

40. Which red state are you in, ngGale?

[Tigress DEM]

44. The reason I ask is because there is INDY Media in most states.

Here is the International link, there's martial law in Ecuador

http://www.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/114629.shtml
<clip>
More Than 15,000 In The Streets Despite State Of Emergency
16 Apr 2005 06:40 GMT

** On that Link down the left you will find the US Indy sites **

United States

arizona
arkansas
atlanta
austin
baltimore
binghamton
boston
buffalo
charlottesville
chicago
cleveland
colorado
danbury, ct
dc
hawaii
houston
hudson mohawk
idaho
ithaca
kansas city
la
madison
maine
miami
michigan
milwaukee
minneapolis/st. paul
new hampshire
new jersey
new mexico
new orleans
north carolina
north texas
nyc
oklahoma
philadelphia
pittsburgh
portland
richmond
rochester
rogue valley
san diego
san francisco
san francisco bay area
santa barbara
santa cruz, ca
seattle
st louis
tallahassee-red hills
tennessee
united states
urbana-champaign
utah
vermont
western mass
worcester

[justice4all_1]

7. Not a melt down...and we can't afford to be complacent!

The Republicans are not going to defeat themselves. They have discipline and organization.

It's important not to let our guard down on these guys.



- T

[katsy]

8. Right you are.

It's a cornered animal that's most dangerous.

[Arugula Latte]

26. Welcome to DU, justice!

:hi: :toast:

[Tigress DEM]

41. Maybe it's just common sense getting the best of them....

Bush and his loyal henchcrew are sinking the ship.

There is a time when even the most loyal crew will wrap its captain up in a blanket and stowe him down below if he starts ordering them to shoot holes in their own vessel.

Many repubs were there long before Bush and would like to remain in office.

[LeftCoast]

9. If this country were acting rationally, I'd agree with you

Sadly, it's been a long time since this country has acted in a rational manner.

[Tigress DEM]

42. I've said before that it takes a while to get a 200+ year old butt.....

moving in a different direction. It's been happening all along, but it's been a slow process.

Some of the press are getting their balls back, even though there is still a lot of game playing and deference going on, they are afraid of US turning off our TVs and going to INDY media because whatever mainstream won't talk about, the INDY's sure will.

Boxer shamed the Senate into finding their balls. Ted Kennedy has never shut up. Conyers has been awesome. Reid has put in some really good licks and so on and so on. The DEMS are giving it a great fight now, but initially we were in this "you can't say a word against the prez or you are unpatriotic" hole.

I think the repugs shot themselves in the foot with overconfidence and went too far - not only in the Ohio Vote Fraud fiasco, but the whole torture coverup.

This is America and at first I think we just couldn't believe it could happen here, so it took some time to believe it, get our facts together and pick our battles.

We still have a long way to go, but the momentum is building and there is a serious questioning going on in the Republican party about whether they can afford to stand by a lunatic or not.

[Zorra]

10. Even Joe 6 pack American has figured out that the GOP can not be trusted.

The secrecy, the corruption, the lies, the anti-American legislation, the ethics scandals, all the dishonesty that is obvious in the GOP....it's mind boggling.

Even middle-Americans is beginning to smell the rotten stench of universal republican corruption.

[libertypirate]

11. The meltdown gonna happen when the real skeletons come out...

I won't hold my breath... but I can dream :)

[Tigress DEM]

43. Yeah, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth....

The only way the Republicans will be able to distance themselves from the repugs is to help prosecute the criminals to the full extent of the law.

When the truth comes out it will be like when Wellstone died and everyone stood for a moment and were one in the grief.

Honest Republicans have lost even more than the DEMS have because we have been in there fighting and screaming out our frustration. The truth is going to hit the people who really believed the lies like a ton of bricks. THEN they are going to get PISSED.

When the repugs took on the NAACP with that nasty ad you had retired people who probably voted Republican all their life talking about never voting Republican again.

[Lexingtonian]

12. wait a year

They're simply not the Party of Quick Learners. And you have to understand that their politics is not a positive politics. It's about what they hate, resent, find difficult, can't stand...until they can share in it.

It takes them a while to realize that all the God Talk isn't much good when the reality it needs to stand on has caved in. But the reality has to cave in first.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. there is a brewing civil war inside the party

is that civil war affecting the suporters? NOT YET, they are not hungry or cold enought to be taken out of the stupor

Will they? I hate the bankrupcy bill but it is the seed of their destruction... it will just take time for Jeo sixpack to finally put two plus two together, in spite of Fox... or a nice economic crash or defeat in a WW will do it...

Pass the kool aid, or the lobotomy...

[scarletlib]

14. umm.......Clinton?

[wyldwolf]

15. listen to Hannity slam freerepublic and read the freeper responses...

Great for a few laughs!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1344622/posts

[Dawgs]

16. I would agree with you if most of America was paying attention...

Sadly, we know they are not. Where I live, everyone would still fight for Bush. Hopefully we will get just enough to make a difference in 06'.

[Toots]

17. Less police on our streets...

Don't worry we have the "Minutemen"..... Makes yoiu feel all safe and cuddly now don't it?

[mikelewis]

47. Actually, the MinuteMen don't bother me...

I know they concern a lot of people but I understand what they are doing and why they are doing it. Truthfully, I have no concept of what impact illegal immigration has on our society. I understand that they pay taxes and contribute to social security and get very little in return other than a wage that is very meager here but raises thier families back home out of abject poverty.

But I also understand that they are illegal immigrants and until legislation is enacted that addresses this issue, they are breaking the law and are impacting our job market. The President says they are perfoming jobs that Americans won't do but I don't believe this to be true. I believe they are doing jobs that American's won't do for slave wages.

So I'm torn between my compassion for both parties and I have no real idea of what should be done about this.

What does concern me is the fact that our Police department has been cut by 40% and that is translating into some of the worst gang violence in the history of my city. Here in Cleveland, an 11 year old boy was just shot dead in a drive by. Children are shooting other children almost weekly and we don't have a law enforcement budget that can even begin to address this issue. To me, immigration takes a back seat to children dying in a fire fight. If the Minutement want to come to Cleveland and drive the drug pushers and the gangs off of our streets, I'll sign up and stand with them. We have a real bad problem in this city and I fear this summer is going to get a lot worse. Many of the police blame the mayor for cutting the force but they don't understand that it wasn't her fault. She happens to be a Democrat running a city full of Democrats and Bush and company have no desire to send us any more money than they absolutely have to. So if the Minutemen want to start a Cleveland Chapter, I just might join.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. The minutemen are a political militia

and are using the 'illegal immigration' issue to organize themselves. They are the prototype for the death squads that will do the dirty work in the coming bad times. That should concern you. Vigilantiism should concern you.

'Illegal immigration' is a non-issue. our economy depends on undocumented workers, and these same undocumented workers are a net asset to the economy, as you yourself point out.

[mikelewis]

52. A prototype for Death Squads? Where do you get this?

Okay, violence is not a desired goal and it would concern me if this was violent or deadly. If these Minutemen were down in Texas shooting people with sniper rifles as they cross the border, that would be of concern. But that is not what is going on. The most important part of vigilante is vigilance, they are watching and reporting the illegal crossings to authorities and thier actions have stopped illegals from crossing the border in the areas they patrol. They have done nothing illegal or immoral. They are watching our border and reporting crime. There is nothing wrong with that. Your paranoia about militia groups and your belief that it is only the federal government that can provide security is more of a concern. Militia groups may be the only thing that can stand in the way of a government who seeks to enact a police state and the federal government obviously has no desire to protect our borders.

The people illegally crossing our borders are not undocumented workers, they are illegal immigrants with forged documents who are paying taxes and recieving no benefits other than the priviledge of mowing our lawns for way less than minimum wage. The issue isn't whether or not the minutemen are going to turn into death squads. The issue is what are we going to do about the illegal immigration policy of this country. Illegals are the modern day equivelent of state sponsored slavery and the anger generated by thier flood into this country is what will cause the violence, not the minutemen who are acting responsibly and legally by watching and reporting illegal activity. This issue will not be solved by putting a band-aid on an knife wound, especially since the knife is still in the wound.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. well I made it up of course

Look, they are not going to announce "we are organizing militias for nefarious purposes and using illegal immigration as an issue to organize around". But the development of and use of private militias by rightwing fascists is a behavior pattern that is almost universal in the modern era, and their typical use is to do the dirty work, to function as death squads.

I look at current events through my ideological filter, which filter assumes that we are in the midst of the development of a fascist theocracy in the United States. When I see what is clearly a well funded and well publicised effort at militia-building, my concern is not over the false issue of undocumented workers, my concern is over the development of right wing death squads. You can dismiss what I have to say, heck I wish I could dismiss what I have to say, but unfortunately I can't, and nor should you.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

18. The splinter is festering

Oh ya, and, may I add, that I do hope they continue pandering to the Rapturist Right zealots, as they have been doing...this will complete the split. Let them keep trying to legislate their own personal morality and keep reaching into what should be private matters.

Many of us 'woke up' to the intrusive religious radicals taking over the party in the 90's but, sadly, some still believed in November 2004 that the sane Republicans were still in control of the party....they are all suffering a rude awakening now.

[k j]

19. Yes...

I agree. I think the meltdown has begun. And that makes me very, very happy. :)

[southlandshari]

32. Welcome to DU, kj --

Glad to have you here!

:hi:

[mourningdove92]

20. They DO seem to be flailing about rather wildly here

latley.

[MsTryska]

21. let's just go wingnut on them and blame them for EVERYTHING

for the next 20 years.

come on...it will be fun!

[leftofthedial]

24. no, that is such reality-based thinking

actually, I think next to Oasis threads in the Lounge, this has been the most frequently posted topic at DU over the years

the repukes are melting down

the repuke party is about to crash and burn

the RW has jumped the shark



BS. 2000 was a coup. Since then, the fascists have ruthlessly consolidated their power. They will not allow trival matters like reality or the law or public opinion or democracy to remove them from power.

[GoldenOldie]

27. Proof to me there is a thaw - in Ohio

Just heard from die-hard Republican cousin-in-law from Ohio - that she and her family are getting a little upset about what the CON leaders ie., DeLay, Frist, Santorum, etc., are doing and what has happened with election investigations within Ohio.

Her ancestors played a very big part in developing the GOP prior to Lincoln's election and she and her 98-year old mother have never ever strayed from the Party. During the 2000 election, her 98-year old mother, who is still very sharp and energetic, stated that she would not die until she was sure that Bush was in the WH.

Although my family adores these cousins, it has been extremely difficult to make the request of them to delete any e-mail to us that proclaimed Georgie the new savior for the US, hateful attacks refering to Kerry, Teresa, Dean, Clark, etc., or just anything that included the wonders of the CONS. We agreed to disagree and she has not mentioned it until last night in her phonecall.

She and her family are not fundies, they now have young family friends serving in Iraq, and the questions of legal election selection in OHIO is now being questioned.

Hey! If this is happening to her and her family, I am sure that it is not an isolated case......a thawing!

[leftofthedial]

28. those who executed the coup in 2000

don't care any more about what repuke voters think than they do about what you or I think.

It was a coup. They are in power. Votes don't count. The media is a propaganda joke. The Patriot Act gives them unrestrained police powers to quash any dissent.

It is good that repuke voters are losing faith in the little bushturd and its gang, but it's not enough to change things.

[k j]

29. regret vocalized in the heartland

Die-hard publisher of a small newspaper in Rural Red, a staunch and vocal Bush supporter since day one, has proclaimed disgust and "I'm finished" with him.

Employees gasp and faint. Lone liberal on staff cheers.

[BlueIris]

55. I've spoken to several Bush supporters who regret not voting Dem.

Yes, they've realized they made a bad call. One of them was the last person I ever expected to jump ship, let alone feel bad about having remained on the ship as long as he did.

[borg5575]

31. Gas prices

I wish you were right, but I fear that you aren't. I'm afraid it's just wishful thinking.

Plus, as bad as they are, in all fairness we can't blame the Rethugs for high gas prices. Prices are being driven by excessive demand coming from the resurgent economies of China and to a lesser extent India. It's not Bush's fault. And remember that gas prices here in the USA are still about the cheapest that you can find anywhere in the world. It's over $4 a gallon in Canada for instance. Their liberal government can't do anything about it anymore than Bush can. And Canada has as much domestic supply as we do.

[mikelewis]

37. That's not necessarily true... The Repugs are responsible for higher gas..

Gas prices are high because the dollar is weak and the cost to subsidize our gasoline is rising. Opec has increased production but the American dollar isn't worth what it used to be. China didn't just wake up and start buying cars all of a sudden. The reason our gas is so high is because of inflation. No one wants to admit it but look around. Look at the price of everything, it's going up and up. This is on purpose and a direct result of Republican policies and thier pandering to the Republican Elite.

Now, why would the Republican Elite want a weak dollar? Because the higher inflation is, the less they have to pay for labor which consitutes the largest cost of any company. If you are making $30,000 and inflation rises but your wage stays the same, your cost to the company is less. That's what deficits do to an economy, they chisel away at the value of the dollar. This is deliberate and an intentional side effect of the tax cuts.

Don't buy the crap they are selling about China increasing demand, it's true to a certain extent but it's not the whole picture. High gas prices means drilling in ANWAR, high gas prices means higher profits for gas companies, high gas prices means people have to work harder and get less. To the Republican Elite, this is the American Dream.

What people aren't talking about is the true cost we have to pay for gasoline. "The federal government subsidizes the oil industry with numerous tax breaks and government protection programs worth billions of dollars annually. These benefits are designed to ensure that domestic oil companies can compete with international producers and that gasoline remains cheap for American consumers."

The war in Iraq has increased the amount we are paying to protect our oil interests. Those $80+ billion dollar supplementals are but a drop in the bucket compared to the "$7 trillion present value dollars over the last 30 years" that we have spent to protect our access to the middle east oil supplies. There is a cost to this protection. Until we have a viable alternative to transportation energy, we are going to see ever increasing numbers at the pumps.

China and India are increasing thier conusmption, this is true and that current rate is at roughly 7.5% per year combined. The entire world is increasing it's consumption of oil by 1.9% per year. The amount and availability is not currently the problem. The problem is our ability or willingness to subsidize gasoline.

"According to the National Defense Council Foundation, the economic penalties of America's oil dependence total $297.2 to $304.9 billion annually. If reflected at the gasoline pump, these “hidden costs” would raise the price of a gallon of gasoline to over $5.28. A fill-up would be over $105."

The Republicans do not want to continue subsidizing gasoline at the rate we have been. The Bush tax cuts took a huge bite out of our ability to continue to subsidize this humongus bill and the war in Iraq is raising the price tag on defending access to middle east oil. They are selling the China/India excuse as a reason but it simply does not pan out. The true reason we are paying more is because of tax cuts; plain and simple. So yes, we can blame Republicans for higher gas prices.

Link: http://www.iags.org/costofoil.html

[borg5575]

51. No

You don't make any sense. On the one hand you say it's the fault of the Retuugs that gas prices are so high, then you turn around and say that "The federal government subsidizes the oil industry with numerous tax breaks and government protection programs worth billions of dollars annually ... (so) that gasoline remains cheap for American consumers."

You can't have it both ways. However, the government is indeed working to see to it that American consumers have cheap gas prices, and as I said, for example, gas prices are over $4 per gallon in Canada. They also average more than $5 per gallon in Western Europe, yet they buy gas with Euros, not dollars, so how can you blame the weak dollar for that?

OPEC itself blames rising prices on China and other rising Third World demand, so it's just not the Rethugs who are saying that. Also, the non partisan Congressional Budget Office said that.

And if this is all just a big Republican conspiracy, why are today's gas prices no more than they were while adjusted for inflation during Democrat Jimmy Carter's term?

[mikelewis]

53. Several problems with your assessment

First, the quote I used is a fact. There is a price tag associated with protecting our access to oil. That price tag equates to roughly $70 trillion over the past 30 years. Historically, that price has been covered by our government through taxes paid to our military and tax breaks to the oil companies to offset the cost of fuel to keep our transportation cost lower. The price for that protection is increasing because of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The amount we collect in taxes has decreased because of the tax cuts to the rich. That difference translates into higher gas prices.

The Euro is stronger than the U.S. dollar. Currently, it takes $1.29 U.S. to buy 1 Euro. If we were to buy fuel in Western Europe, $5 American dollars would only buy 3.87 Euro's worth of fuel. They can buy more fuel with the same amount of money. It's not a one to one relationship. That's why a weak American dollar translates into higher gasoline prices.

The fact that OPEC blames China and other third world countries is irrelevant. Do you honestly think they are going to blame a weak currency and a war in the Middle East? These oil producing countries have a vested interest in maintaining a strengthed U.S. dollar. The damand hasn't doubled in the past year and yet the cost of fuel has. So since the damand hasn't risen considerable, it leaves only the fact that it costs a lot more to protect the access which the Republican Elite are no longer footing the bill for and the fact that the U.S. dollar simply does not buy what it used to.

And in case you don't remember, there was an oil CRISIS during the end of Carter's administration. Yes, the price is lower but not much lower when adjusted for inflation. This is a Republican talking point, not a reality. Turn on Rush Limbaugh and he'll tell you this everyday but he won't tell you that there was a panic that unnaturally drove up the price of gasoline. Quit spouting Republican talking points and do some homework.

[borg5575]

57. It amazes me...

that if someone doesn't follow a herd mentality and agree with the prevailing wisdom in here, then they are automatically accused of spouting Republican talking points.

I don't listen to Limbaugh. Anything I say I came to based upon my own conclusions, so don't accuse me of using anyone else's talking points.

Of course there was a crisis during the Carter Administration, just like there is now. If Carter had been a Republican, then you would have probably blamed him for cozying up to big oil, but since he was a Democrat there was a "crisis." Since this is a Republican Administration in power now, to you it's not a crisis this time, it's big oil.

But mark my words, if Kerry, whom I supported BTW, had been elected, gas prices would still be going up and you would be calling it another crisis rather than blaming the administration for it.

I am beginning to hate the prevailing mentality in here. I am a life long Democrat and proud of it. I have voted for every Democratic presidential candidate since Hubert Humphrey. Yet this idea that I get in this forum that the present administration can do nothing right and has to be blamed for everything is just plain wrong and inaccurate.

I cringed when Bush lied about Iraq, but I didn't like it any better when Johnson lied about Viet Nam even though he was a Democrat. I am beginning to think that some of the younger posters in here don't appreciate history like they should.

[mikelewis]

60. Again you are incorrect,,,

This is the situation direct from the mouths of an oil company CEO

"When Hank Kuchta took the podium last month he had just received an award for refiner of the year. And his companies stock is up 50 percent from last year; he told his fellow refiners business is good and likely to stay that way.

Hank Kuchta, Premcor (3/10/05): "When you take a look at where the supply demand balance sits worldwide, you certainly come to the conclusion that we're now finally in a situation where we don't have a lot of extra supply."

Kuchta went on to encourage his fellow refiners to keep the supply demand balance tight.

Kuchta (3/10/05): "If we go in and we start expanding like crazy before the demand gets there, that's the shoot yourself in the foot theory and we'll all be the opposite of geniuses. You pick the word, but they'll kill us for it, believe me."
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/politics/print_041305_politics_oil.html



There is not a supply problem. The problem is artificially created to drive up costs and increase profits. The price of crude oil is also rising but again this is a reflection of inflation due to our crushing debt and a weak dollar. Not because there is less oil. You don't have to believe me, believe what they are saying amongst themselves.


"that if someone doesn't follow a herd mentality and agree with the prevailing wisdom in here, then they are automatically accused of spouting Republican talking points."
If you are wrong about something, be prepared to be called on it. Sorry if it offends you but you are wrong about what is happening at the pumps. And regardless were you get your knowledge, you are simply regurgitating Republican talking points. These are not only espoused by Rush but by the MSM and repeated among the population as fact even though there is no credible basis for this. These are Republican talking points, this is what Republicans preach and just because you believe it doesn't make it so.

"If Carter had been a Republican, then you would have probably blamed him for cozying up to big oil, but since he was a Democrat there was a "crisis." Since this is a Republican Administration in power now, to you it's not a crisis this time, it's big oil."
The oil crisis in the late 70's was not a real crisis. There was no shortage of oil, obviously. The oil crisis was a neat way to get Carter out and Reagan in. The same holds for the Iran Hostage Crisis. The Ayatollah made a deal with the Reagan campaign not to release the hostages until after the election. Again, another bogus crisis.

"But mark my words, if Kerry, whom I supported BTW, had been elected, gas prices would still be going up and you would be calling it another crisis rather than blaming the administration for it."
I doubt they would because Kerry could have opened the reserves and crushed the profits of the oil tycoons the same way Clinton did. Kerry would be an embattled President and would defend himself from retalitory attacks from big oil companies.

"Yet this idea that I get in this forum that the present administration can do nothing right and has to be blamed for everything is just plain wrong and inaccurate.
I don't blame him for my garage opener breaking but short of that, he can't do anything right for me. He does a lot right for his buddies and the Republican Elites. George Bush is a criminal and a demon. Not so much him but the lines of power that lead through him. Big money, religious fanatics, drug cartels, this is where he derives his power. He has stolen 2 national elections. He is culpable in the 9/11 plot. He seeks to destroy our democracy. So yeah, he isn't doing anything right for me. You can support anyone you want to but I urge you to start doing some research on your own and open your eyes to the big picture. You don't believe in the possibility of a mass conspiracy but I'd be willing to bet you believe Osama Bin Laden perpetrated 9/11. Isn't this a mass conspiracy? Wasn't aiding the Mujahdeen in Afghanistan part of a mass conspiracy to bring about the downfall of the Soviet Union? Wasn't the Iran Contra scandal a mass conspiracy? Wasn't BCCI a mass conpiracy? Oddly enough, the Bush family has been involved in all of these mass conspiracies and yet you don't believe they even exist. You need to wake up.

"I cringed when Bush lied about Iraq, but I didn't like it any better when Johnson lied about Viet Nam even though he was a Democrat. I am beginning to think that some of the younger posters in here don't appreciate history like they should.
I'm beginning to think that some of the older democrats believe all the governmental conpiracies ended with Watergate. But you are right, I don't have much appreciation for history. History, in all cases, is written by the victors. History is a story told to children to inspire nationalism and love of country. I am done with history. I want the truth. I'm tired of the lies and the deceit and the bullshit conspiracies.

To me it is irrelevant how you vote, the most important thing is what you are voting for. Simply voting Democrat doesn't earn you a thing. Finding the truth and offering it up for discussion in an open and free forum, that is what we do here. We don't want corruption. We don't want a country run by greed and deceit. We want Democracy and a strong Republic. We believe in the Constitution and the grace of self-determination. If a Democrat were doing these terrible things, and some have, then I would be doing the same thing I am doing right now. I am a Progressive who just happens to vote Democrat. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I am sorry if you find my replies harsh. I have also recieved harsh criticism at times. I have, on a great many occassions been completely wrong about an issue. When this happens, I look into the facts and reevaluate my position when the truth dictates. I could be completely wrong about everything I am writing here. It is a possibility that I am open to. But you have an opportunity to show me how I am wrong by the strength of your arguement and your grasp of the facts. Relying on Macrohistory does not cut it here. You want a debate, I am more than willing to learn from you. But you must realize, this is a forum for people who are prepared to defend thier position especially if it is completely opposite from the "Herd".

I am glad you are here and I am glad you are concerned about what is going on. I offer welcome and I do not intend to offend you or disrespect your view. You are entitled to it but once it is offered, you must be prepared to defend your opinion. This is politics, it's the new contact sport and not for the faint of heart or those who wear thier emotions so close to thier sleeve. Suck it up, develop your arguement and then prove me wrong. I promise you, if you show me how I am wrong, I will admit it. But on the other hand, if in your research you should find that my opinion is more closely aligned with reality then say that as well. That's all I ask. And after all this, I respectfully and wholeheartedly welcome you to the Democratic Underground.

[borg5575]

77. My reply

Thank you for being so personable and for welcoming me to DU. Believe me, we are on the same side. I just see things a bit differently than you do.

I don't know if they stole the last two elections or not. I did oppose the Supreme Court's decision on the Florida matter in 2000, and there do seem to be disturbing examples of voting irregularities this time around. But even given that, remember that the late Mayor Daley stole the 1960 election from Richard Nixon for John Kennedy too, so it's not as if Democrats haven't played that game as well.

I know that you say that you don't have appreciation for history, and I understand your point, but I'm old enough to have lived through recent history so I do care about it because it affected my own life in real time. You say that history is "written by the victors. History is a story told to children to inspire nationalism and love of country." Yet history is also the first few decade of my life. What does the fact that LBJ lied to me about Viet Nam have to do with
inspiring children to "nationalism and love of country?" I mentioned it only to make my point that Democrats lie to the country just as Republicans do.

Also, I don't believe in demons so I don't believe that Bush is one. To me he's just a bad politician who never should have become president, but again, we have had plenty of them in the past from both sides of the aisle.

[mikelewis]

93. I do believe in Demons...

I'm not afraid of things that go bump in the night or shadows that that send chills down the spine. Those are illusions. True Demons walk the earth and cause terrible things to happen to others.

Adolph Hitler was a demon. Jeffrey Dahmer was a demon. Stalin was a Demon. Is Bush a demon?

I believe in evil, I have to because I also believe in good. Every action must have an equal and opposite reaction. This works in physics and it also works in sociology. Evil does exist and it is embodied by horrific acts against men and nature. I don't believe in the Boogeyman, but I do believe in Demons.

"There are only 2 men who can bring people back to life. Jesus Christ and Mayor Daley of Chicago."

Yes, I know our election system has been crooked in the past. I'd actually be shocked to find an election that wasn't crooked. That's not the point. The point is, when do we stand up and stop it from happening again? When do we stop ignoring the symptoms of a diseased democracy? I say now and forever, we should and we must.

I wasn't paying attention to the other elections, I didn't even vote in any until this one. That's not something I'm proud of but it the truth. I plan on voting in every election from now on and I demand that my vote be counted and counted for the person I voted for. That's all I ask and that's all I demand. Someone came to my door and told me I can make a difference by registering to vote. I did that. I believed I could make a difference and I voted. My vote was thrown in the trash. For me, the election was absolutely stolen and since I have a lot to make up for, I am going to continue to fight until I make amends for disregarding my duty to my countrymen.

John Kerry lost because I failed him. I failed to pay attention to the very thing that binds us together as a country. I served in the military. I am good to my neighbors. I love my country. I didn't realize until recently how much my participation was required. Well, I am here now and as imperfect and weak as I am, I will make a difference and my voice will be heard. It's as simple as that. I don't care about the past, that's history. I care about the future and the future of this country because my children are going to live here and thier children. They will not pay for my ignorance. That is the level of commitment I bring to my fellow citizens, I'm sorry it took so long but that can't be helped. I'm not going to save the world by myself but I am going to stand behind those that can. I will support those who are smarter and braver than I and I will live up to my obligations.

I believe with every fiber of my being that this election was stolen, hands down stolen. I wrote an op/ed a while ago and I hope you read it. I posted it here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Again, welcome to DU and thanks for paying attention when so many of us were not. Sorry, it took so long.

[sendero]

87. Sure...

.... gas would be going up under Kerry because the Iraq war was already on.

The fact that no oil is coming out of Iraq MIGHT have something to do with oil prices and it was Reps who started this dumbass war.

[borg5575]

88. I opposed the Iraq war.

It was illegal and Bush is a criminal for starting it. However, you are wrong when you say there is no oil coming out of Iraq. Total oil output from Iraq last year was higher than it was in 2002, the last full year that Sadaam was in power.

[proud patriot]

34. read my sigline

:D

[BlueIris]

36. That's a very nice sigline. n/t

[Tigress DEM]

38. Opportunity for bi-partisan repair of our country is at hand if we don't .

gloat too much. I just reached out to the Repub in Alaska who has expressed concerns about confirming Bolton.

Republicans are beginning to realize that there are some limits to what the party can tell them to do without question.

Those that are willing to step across party lines and do the right thing simply because it is the right thing are our allies. If we can keep the, I told you so, out of our mouth long enough to work out the details we will make the progress that is needed.

Once the evil coalition of the greedy incompetents are removed, we can get back to bickering over petty details.

[mikelewis]

45. Oh, I can't see a thing to gloat about...

This isn't about winning or losing, this is about reforming our country and taking a long hard look at the way we have allowed things to come this far. The Republicans still think this is about Republican vs. Democrat and that somehow they are going to win. In reality, they have no concept of the prize and they don't understand that they will not share in the bounty. That's not how Neo-Fascism is designed. They are just as much victims as we, they just don't know it yet. They will eventually understand and when the political pendulum reaches as far right as the fundies and crooks can push it, it will swing back. This is certain. 9/11 rocketed this country to the right so fast and hard that the down swing is going to be a very rough and scary ride, it will right itself but it will take time.

Whether or not we agree with the Republicans is not the issue. The Republicans have been duped and they are beginning to awaken. They need to be greeted by thier neighbors on the other side of the aisle with compassion and understanding. Just because they are nasty to us does not mean we must seek vengance against them. They made a mistake, they followed false prophets and they will pay a due for that, a due we should be careful not to exacerbate.

This is what I tell every Repbulican I talk to about politics. "The Republican party has a rich and proud history. There is nothing wrong with what you believe, the problem is, the people who are running your party aren't concerned about keeping the contract they made with you. That sales pitch, that Contract with America is broken. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs or mocking your party, I'm simply telling you, it's time you started cleaning your house. Bring to power Republicans like Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, Abraham Lincoln. These people believed in America and our Constitution. But that's not what you have running your party or speaking for you. I'm not going to tell you what to believe, go look for yourself. But don't waste time looking for it on TV or in government propaganda. Look for the truth in what they say and how they say it. Start watching C-Span and reading some of the laws they have written. You may just be surprised at what you have elected to power." It sounds a lot better when I'm saying it to them in person. I have gotten pretty good at guaging thier level of satisfaction with thier party and they're usually shaking my hand and thanking me for the conversation. I have a conversation like this at least once or twice a week. Many of these are real decent people and they don't deserve to suffer for the theft of thier party any more than the suffering they will inflict on themselves.

There are some real assholes in the Republican party but then again, we have our fair share on this side of the aisle as well. But I really don't identify myself as a Democrat anyway, I prefer to call myself a Progressive and I tell them that a Progrssive and a Republican aren't opposing forces. I tell them I'm a Progressive that just happens to vote Democrat more often than not. My passion and grasp of the issues usually earns thier respect. They usually don't know that more often than not, I'm quoting from posts I've read here. You guys would be proud if you knew how smart you made me appear, even to a Republican. So I agree with you and I hope others in this movement listen to you and understand that even though the Republicans are ultimately responsible for allowing thier party to degenerate into what it has become, they should be met with understanding and cooperation when they awaken to this nightmare that is being perpetrated in thier name.

[Tigress DEM]

46. Got a good head on your shoulders Mike.

I agree with most of what you had to say wholeheartedly - exception Reagan. Not a good president by any means in my book, only painted up pretty, but now really isn't the time to quibble about that with Republicans, since there is so much we can agree on these days.

I also know what you mean about the things we learn here helping us look good to the Republicans we talk to. I was just on vacation with my husband's Aunt who I love dearly, but could not speak to politically for fear of her ripping me to shreds. She is highly intelligent and opinionated, but you know there is that whole respect for your elders thing going on.

So I talked to someone else within her hearing to see what her reaction would be. She told me I really had some intelligent things to say. Now a lot of what I was talking about was absence of media coverage about the War Protests and TruthOut items and such that most people just haven't heard about.

The other thing I get is Republicans looking to me for news updates, because even if they don't sense what exactly is missing on their FAUX news, most people know real news when they hear it and Americans have a craving for it.

[mikelewis]

48. It's hard for me to turn on Reagan - though I know I have already

I loved Reagan, though I didn't know any better at the time. I still love Reagan, not for what he allowed to happen just for the way he made me feel about this country. I didn't understand what was going on and frankly, I didn't care. I was just a kid in the 80's and I had much more important things to think about. I just remember him well and it's hard to get rid of that image. I know what he did, now. A part of me believes most of the evil things wasn't his doing. I believe George Bush Sr. was behind a lot of the stuff that happened and that bullet he took hurt him a lot more than we knew. None of it can be proven of course and it's more sentimentality and nationalism that makes it difficult for me to turn away from the mental image I have of President Reagan. Deep down I don't want to believe he was responsible for Death squads and drug smuggling and all of the terrible things I know happened in the 80's. I know he was, even if he wasn't aware of it, "The Buck stops here" so to speak but it makes me sad so I try not to dwell on it.

You are right about the real news and the hunger for more. I find they are especiall starved for news about Iraq. The MSM really does a shitty job, {that's such a waste of time saying anymore}. I usually lead into politics with a discussion on Iraq. Bring up Iraq and you will know what you are dealing with in 5 seconds. Even though I am disappointed with Bill Mahr's 180 on Iraq, his talking points help when I'm trying to deprogram a Republican.

I usually ask them if they've heard any news about what's going on or if they have family or freinds over there. {One guy was a virtual gem of information, one of his students was in Iraq. He had graduated from St. Ed's and went on to John Marshall law school. He was then stationed in Iraq and sent to Abu Ghraib after the prison scandal. The guy told me his quasi-adopted son was handing out wads of cash and getting affidavits signed from the people they released to keep them quite about what they saw or what heppened to them. It was a great conversation. Anyway, I lead in with what do you know about Iraq and then start informing them about what Sy Hersh is saying and tidbits of info I pick up from the net. I am also lucky enough to have an Iraqi national aquantance who has family living in Baghdad so I get a lot of information from there too. It doesn't take long to move the conversation over to what's going on in our government. Soon, they're learning about election fraud, 9/11 and why the nuclear option is a bad thing. I've gotten quite good at steering the conversation and I find they are suprisingly receptive to the information. I usually wrap it up by telling them to seek out the truth and the best place to do that is the Internet. I have no idea how successful I have been with conversions but I do know I'm not offending anyone. When I first started, I started getting complaints from my boss and he told me not to talk politics with them anymore. Bwa-hahaha, right. I just got better at it and so far haven't pissed anyone off since. I enjoy it actually, it just takes a lot of practice and a lot of studying.

[Tigress DEM]

90. I was 18 when Reagan first ran.

Scandal. I voted for him. I thought I was doing the politically responsible thing at the time because I really felt like the deficit was in need of being addressed.

Reagan was from California. I was from California. He had actually balanced the budget there, so I thought he could do it for the nation as well, and I bought the sales pitch hook line and sinker. Me - a DEM since birth practically.

When my son was born and my marriage blew up I wound up on public assistance. I learned first hand that while Reagan tripled the deficit with the star wars program and runaway spending, he was putting through merciless cuts to the programs for the poor. I lived on $435 a month and my rent was $385. It was a woman's shelter and included basic meals and utilities or I wouldn't have survived. I got a "raise" of 1% and it was $3.00 a month. Where did the other $1.35 go?

I learned that the peace index actually saves money all over the place and that "Welfare" programs were 5% of the budget vs the 50% the military had. Even if you entirely cut off every person from assistance, it would only be a 5% saving on the budget.

People were pissed off at welfare moms and talking about how much money they "leeched" from the system and how they all cheated. I didn't cheat. Most of the people I knew didn't cheat either. It was just a way for Reagan to justify balancing his budget on the backs of the poor.

Then I remembered my life in California. How when I was going to school there was this Jarvis bill Prop 13 that cut funding to arts and music programs in public schools. Reagan and Jarvis were very close and a lot of people think Prop 13 threw the tax system out of balance as far as really getting the needed services.

In Minnesota I remember when Arnie Carlson started making heavy cuts to school funding at the same time Reagan was cutting Federal funding - immediate result - inner city schools without enough books and buildings in disrepair, while suburbs faced decisions about how to fund their new schools to accommodate suburban flight.

Then Arnie let the people bring up a 4 year tax referendum to pay for the cuts he made. It seemed OK at the time because we felt that the budget needed to be balanced and the schools still needed money for programs, so we made the sacrifice.

At the end of Arnie's term he passes on this "surplus" and it was ironically, the amount he had taken from the schools and funded with the referendum. Then knucklehead Ventura gave it back disproportionately to the rich with tax rebates to buy him respect or love or whatever from Minnesotans. Nobody connected the dots.

I don't believe Reagan was asleep at the wheel during all of the policies of rage against the poor that happened during his term. I think he truly believes it's better for the upper and middle class to survive and the poor to get over it.

I wish that any politician who would be in a position to make life and death decisions for people on assistance would have to live for 90 days under the conditions they impose. It would change the world.

[Catchawave]

50. The Hate Campaign against Hillary

worries me more, especially that they don't have a candidate to run against her in '06.

Very hypocritical of the Jesus Party, imo.

[funflower]

61. Hillary

Hillary (bless her anyway), does more to unite the reps than most people.

[mikelewis]

68. The only reason why I don't support Hillary is because she is so

polarizing. She is a great leader and a strong woman. I don't know if I can fully trust her but she definitely knows how to weild power. I am hoping for someone who isn't so polarizing, someone like George Washington. I read in a book somewhere that George was chosen not for his leadership ability but for his amiability. He was a hero and a very well liked man. I think for this revolution to be complete, we need someone who can heal the wounds of the country and maybe even work towards bringing justice to the rest of the world. We need a President that stands up to the corporate gerrymandering of our politic and a President who refuses to ignore the suffering of the millions of people across the earth that we have the opportunity to help. That's a tall order, I know. Maybe Wesley Clark could do this, I don't know. Whoever it is, I can't wait to meet them.

[funflower]

70. Gen. Clark

I thought the General was great last time. From what I know of him, I'd love to see him in the White House. For reasons I don't understand, the media ignored him and treated him like a laughing stock. Maybe he needs to be a governor somewhere first. He would be a great, and unifying, president.

[mikelewis]

71. Because the media is in bed with Bush - sort of

Gen. Clark got bad exposure because big money was afraid of him. I don't know much about him but from what little I do, they have a lot to be afraid of.

I know it sounds conspiratorial but Sherlock Holmes always said, "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

Now to say it's all one giant conspiracy is a bit too extravagant but, it's all one giant conspiracy. The Bush propaganda machine was in full swing during the election. You only have to look at what happened to Howard Dean to realize how quickly and completely the Bush machine could put thier message out across America through our media. The scream heard round the world was probably the most ignorant way to kill a presidential hopeful but kill him it did. In front of thousands of energized fans, Howard let loose with a premture victory cry and something this stupid was what they were waiting for. Not just Bush, not just the other candidates but the Media Nazguls who realized that if Dean and his Deaniacs swept into power, they may have a lot of explaining to do. They were just as cuplable as the Bush Administration for selling this war to the American people and they realized that they may be held accountable for that if Dean rode into the White House on his white horse galloping on a mountain of cash raised not by corporations who pay thier salaries but by peasants who may hold them accountable. Oh no he won't! So the scream jumps out and they jump to attack and the rest is silence. So yes, it's a vast right wing conspiracy but it's not. It's big money looking out for big money because they know what will happen to them if we ever get into power. There's no conspiratorial phone calls, no secret meetings in dark places with trenchcoats. They just have an understanding of what needs to be done and they do it. All it takes is one to start the avalanche and the rest fall in line behind who ever is running a story lest they get scooped. This is the problem with our media. I don't know much about Clark but I am learning more about him and so far, I like what I see. Time will tell if his tree bears good fruit.

[funflower]

75. Dean and the media

Actually, I had the impression that the conservatives were hoping Dean would get the nomination because he would be easier for them to beat, and democrats nominated Kerry because they thought he was our best chance to beat Bush.

I agree the scream hype does suggest something going on in a smoky backroom, as does the media's dismissal of Gen. Clark, even when he was winning. Clark would have been really scary for Bush to run against. Dean would have been terrifying to the RW if he won but would have been less likely to win.

[Tigress DEM]

91. John Conyers for Prez, Barbara Boxer for VP

WASHINGTON, my dad said, was a great leader for the simple reason he would not ask a soldier or subordinate to do something he himself could not or would not do. His honesty as a person committed to a the ideals of our freedom caused people to follow him to the bitter ends needed to bring about our success. He was pushed into office. He didn't want the "honor" because he envisioned a country that treated men as equals and president seemed too much like king to him.

I say that John Conyers is the closest we have to Washington. He has been speaking truth to power since Rosa Parks worked for him. He understands what is important without being told and is already on it before most of us know what "it" is.

John Conyers has been in there fighting for our right to have every vote accurately counted from the beginning. He wrote up the 900 page report for the Senate investigation Barbara Boxer stood up and demanded.

Barbara Boxer for VP. She's already kicking Senate ass and I'd like to see her have the real power to get that group in line.

I think Hilary should replace the monkey they are trying to put in the UN. She knows world politics and may be our best chance to repair our relationships with other countries.

John Kerry for Secretary of Defense so we can have a real war hero who would never condone torture in America's name, but who wouldn't back down from a fight for a just cause either. Something I don't think anyone got when they accused him of waffling.

There are times and reasons to fight and so you don't just have 1 policy. You have degrees of diplomacy and when all dipolmacy, sanctions and attempts to correct the situation are done and America is at risk, then you go to war.

[sellitman]

54. You better "melt down" their Homespun voting machines first!

Otherwise everything else is window dressing.

[BlueIris]

56. Yup. And get it done before the next "terror strike."

None of the attempts to undo all this damage will mean anything if the attack happens, martial law is instated, media black-out commences and they start hauling "conscientious objectors" up before the firing squads.

[mikelewis]

66. Proud Supporter of the Velvet Revoltion and mamber of Dem. for America

You are right, they did it to us twice, probably more than we even know, but twice for sure. That's part of my optimism. For all the ignoring the MSM does, the election fraud word is spreading. I'm not saying they can't do it again but it's going to be a lot harder next time, this you can take to the bank.

[snowbear]

58. One reason I can't take much of Chris Matthews..

..is how he CONSTANTLY goes on and on about how the "Democratic party is in complete and total disarray"

HeLLlLLlllllLllo.. Earth to Tweety. READ MIKE'S LIST :mad: -- then tell us which party is screwed up!

BTW.. What's the deal with Congress approving $100,000+ on a center for the Punxsutawney groundhog, yet not forking out a single buck to ensure Diebold machines are equipped with paper ballots?!?

[More Than A Feeling]

59. Optimism at last! THANK YOU!

I am glad to know that my optimism is shared by at least one other person. Totally agree with everything you said!

[ArtVandaley]

62. I'm very certain that their fall will happen soon

It's the nature cycle of politics. The pendulm is as far right as it has ever been, and it is about to swing left soon.

[snowbear]

65. OMG, it's Art Vandaley!

Importer/Exporter and an Architect to boot! :bounce:

[mikelewis]

67. I thought he was a Marine Biologist

[ArtVandaley]

74. In the latex business

haha

[paula777]

80. Yes, your a latex salesman

[funflower]

63. Rep base is the problem.

Their "base" is their downfall. The RW fundies want their due and have been threatening for a while now to bolt if they don't get it. "It" scares the hell out of most people. The reps have been electing scarier and scarier people, and eventually it will catch up with them.

[Fire Walk With Me]

69. Feels a bit like they're attempting to foment a civil war

Could be wrong, but with DeLay's comments on judges and Nugent's
"go hardcore" NRA comments, Frist's "Against people of faith", Rice's "UN should change or die", looks like a bit of rallying going on.

[DemGirl7]

73. I've been hoping and praying for this to come...

I can't stand them so much, I pray for day the Republicans meltdown...and they have to answer for the BS they have done over the years...I Hate the majority of them and I want them to suffer the way the democrats have suffered. :evilgrin:

[mikelewis]

82. That's where we differ

I don't want them to suffer. I want them to enjoy the fruits of this country and regain some level of dignity. I don't want a Democrat Hegemony over America. I want an America where all views are represented and thier beliefs are respected and protected. I want the Constitution to be the rule of law not an impediment to it. I want the Radicals in the Republican party to fall from power and some semblance of reasonableness restored to our government. My hope is that these Radicals will be prosecuted for thier treasonous acts and the party they represent restored to respectability. I don't want the Republicans to suffer, they are Americans and so far too many Americans are already suffering. I know many won't agree that the Republicans were ever respectable but I read about Eisenhower and Lincoln and the rich history of the GOP and it makes me sad to see how they have fallen from grace.

[Tigress DEM]

92. Democratic Hegemony - NO. Republicans take responsibility - Yes.

Whether or not they were lied to like the rest of us, most of them have found it convenient to not know the truth.

I think there are honest Republican's, but these vile snakes have infiltrated their party and taken it over. If those kind of thugs took over the Democratic party.... there would be three shades of hell to pay.

Those honest Republicans who help root out the poison in their party are welcome to their opinions and beliefs in my mind. Those that still want to deny or excuse the vile and evil acts done on their watch are just as guilty as those who committed the acts. Their basic beliefs may be fine, but if they stand by and allow others to make their party a WMD then they are accountable for the destruction.

I want my country back. Those who are not against real Democracy are welcome to help make it happen. Those who are against real Democracy better step aside or get run over, because the changes will sweep across America as the truth is known, and those who fight against the values that this country stands for are not patriots and don't deserve respect.

[MADem]

78. To return to the original question vis a vis a "meltdown"

I don't see it as a meltdown at all. A meltdown is when everyone is immediately on the same page, and the organization just falls to shit all at once. What I see is a slow crumbling, like bad concrete, chipping away, slowly falling apart.

We can help them with judicious applications of a jackhammer, of course. It's important to keep hoisting the bullshit flag on them at every opportunity!

[Tigress DEM]

94. Hi MADem!

Or like water wearing away at a dam little by little until Kablooey!

All those little raindrops that fell into the lake and simply were the built up pressure against the seemingly solid wall .... each act of faith we take, each time we don't give up, adding up to a level of resistance that is not futile.

[New Dealer]

81. I don't see a complete meltdown

But I do see them losing power soon. Things are getting much worse domestically, and nothing seems to be improving in Iraq.

[Dr Fate]

83. Not gonna happen folks. Quit dreaming and start punching some throats.

The only way they will go down is if we TAKE them down. They are too smart to fall on their own swords.

Projecting what would happen to DEMs onto a party that has its shit together is wishful thinking.

[thecai]

84. I've ALWAYS Sensed A Meltdown of The Republican Party

And the fire's heat is rising in temperature...

[melissinha]

89. When people start examining the budget...

they'll understand.

All you need to do is show people the proposed budget which cut police funds for NYC, cut funds to VA, cut funds to every social program except for faith based programs.....

Its not like we don't have an actual document that shows the interest of this man. I think its appaling ot ask people to sacrifice tehir lives and then cut funds to their support organization.

SHOW the repukes the budget.. and ask them to explain it.
If everyday voters really examined it and we didn't Coulter featured like debutant on Time we could actually spread some truth.

[PaDem]

85. who do we blame?

Why Bill Clinton of course.

[mikelewis]

86. I think the juice is running out on that one

Okay, let's see...

Bill is responsible for the moral deacy of our children - check

The corporate scandals of Enron, Tyco, Worldcom - check

Bin Laden and 9/11 - check

The recession - check

Terri Shaivo - ..... che... um... check

The completely unwarranted and viscious attacks on Tom Delay - check check

Hilary being as pissed off as she is - {this one may be true so} CHECk

The world despising us - check

The failure of Social Security - check

The decay in the military - check


Man, you'd think they could just try him for treason and get it over with already. These guys are so bitter over Bill Clinton that they'd believe he eats babies if Rush told the he did,