Howard Dean - not gays and race - jobs education and healthcare

[Valjean]

I hope Howard Dean's folks are reading my posts.

Don't let this election be about race relations and gay marriage. It's all about jobs. This is the unifying factor that the people in the BLUE and RED states have in common.

Bush is trying to drag democrats into a splinter issue. Ignore it. And please Democrats ... LET THE ISSUE DROP FOR NOW!!!!! If Democrats win, you'll get unions on a state by state basis. If Bush wins, you get a constitutional amendment banning even civil unions.

So please DROP THE ISSUE !!!!!!!!

[Demo Gog]

1. Someone has already been focusing...

on jobs, education, and health care. His name is John Edwards and it seemed to help him in Iowa.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. Amending the constitution to reflect the doctrine of a religious sect will

be the best way to establish the nation as a Christain Reconstructionist Republic, and establishing a two-tiered system of "equal protection" based on sexual preference will expedite getting several other problem populations into a constitutionally mandated second class citizen status.

[Demo Gog]

4. It's sad really.

Discrimination based on who you love and the color of your skin is still so devisive in 2004.

[Valjean]

5. The Best way to fight that

And the best way to fight it is turning the issue BACK to jobs, education and healthcare. Don't get mired down in their slop!!!!

These are basic wedge issues and they are using it to appeal to people in the "red" states. Don't engage it. Leave it up to states. Get Bush out of office.

If you DON'T drop that issue you will doom yourself to that loathesome amendment.

Simplification:

Choose between 50 cents or NOTHING. You can't have the whole dollar. Americans aren't ready for it yet. If you insist on the WHOLE dollar you WILL LOSE YOUR FIFTY CENTS.

Get it???

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. Bring it on!

How bout you keep your fifty cents and your dollar and I'll take the Constitution.

[philosophie_en_rose]

3. Um... can't "it" be about more than two things?

Can't state fight for equal protection and then just not ratify the trash that comes from the White House?

It's still the economy, (stupid :)). But it is also many, many other things.

[Democrats unite]

6. It's a issue I will not and cannot drop!

It is a part of my being, it is my life & I will not back down one bit on this issue!

[jpgray]

7. That was a great answer, and other candidates should use it too

The divisive rhetoric is just to take time up from the important issues that unite us.

[AP]

8. all those things should be incorporated INTO an argument about which

direction power should flow. They shouldn't be ignored.

That's what edwards does with these questions -- he turns them into questions about economic, political and cultural power.

[Demo Gog]

10. I should just ad...

You're precisely right.

Edwards in '04

[David Zephyr]

9. As the World Leader of All Gays & Lesbians I Respond to Your Plea.

I have passed along your command to all gay and lesbians. We will cease from partnering, raising our families and being seen in public together. We remove the framed photographs of the ones we love from our desks at work and never, ever mention their names to our co-workers or take them to company events.

We will lie and tell our neighbors that we are not couples after all, but room mates and friends.

Will that make you happy?

Shut up and be silent?
Tell your kids that you don't have a "real family"?
Hide your love away?

I like how you say "DROP THE ISSUE!!!!!! (I hope I got all the exclamation marks in there).

Drop the issue? Wouldn't it be easier for you if we just all dropped dead for the next year? How's that? Would that make you more, shall we say, comfortable.

[Demo Gog]

12. Your plea is truly heartfelt

But the question is, "How can we influence middle America that this IS a just cause?" I absolutely could not agree with you more, but unfortunately I think change has to come pragmatically. It starts with recognized civil unions and goes from there. Patience for a righteous cause is terribly difficult.

[Disandra]

23. I like to add a "me too" to that.

It can't happen overnight (as much as we all might want to (straight, gay, lesbian, bi). I'll keep fighting the good fight, but we have to take steps such as this.

It sucks, big time, I know. Change is slow, but it is coming, and when it does, I will be dancing at my best friend's wedding to her life partner.

[Valjean]

27. Decisions ...

If it's a question between YOUR family and the families of millions of Americans, then yes. Please Refrain. That or just lie low for Christ sake.

And this is your giant presumption is that the marginal gains for homosexual couple/families is more important than the economic health of ALL families (including YOURS!!!).

What is the percentage of gay folks out there: about 2-10% depending on who you ask. Should we sacrifice the greater interest of 90-98% of Americans for the marginal gain of 2-10%.

I'm sorry, but I'm just sick and tired of Democrats losing elections over these gay issues. The public isn't READY for homosexual marriage. And it's NOT the same thing as being black.

If you ask me to choose between the financial and political well being of my neighbors and GAY MARRIAGE, well you already know which one I'd choose.

So please, let the issue lie. Republicans will do EVERYTHING possible to keep bringing this up. DON'T HELP THEM!!!!!!!

And please don't give me a "sacrificing gays" issue. Because the reality is you are sacrificing YOURSELF. Democrats can't help you IF THEY ARE OUT OF POWER!!!!!!!!

[Demo Gog]

29. I have to respectfully disagree.

It IS a natural, biological thing that cannot be changed, and therefore should NOT be discriminated against. But change does come pragmatically and your final sentence, Valjean, makes a good point.

[David Zephyr]

32. Kicking Your Charming Post Up Again and Again and Again.

Lovely words. The "for Christ sake" was a nice touch, too.

[AntiCoup2K4]

40. Then we do as Edwards and Dean both said tonight...

..we don't let the 'Pukes control the debate. We don't let those fucking criminal unelected lying bastards bring up divisive issues with talking points from Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps.

Jobs. Bush lies about Iraq. Bush lies about the economy. Bush lies about 9-11-01. Those are the issues.

Don't play by the Repukes rules, and if that's how the DLC wants to play it than fuck them too.

[Demo Gog]

41. Damn right!

Great post! Except for the DLC-bashing.

[dsc]

13. I don't pretnend that I am the center of the universe

I don't think we have to be discussed 24/7. But make no mistake. We did what you suggested once with Clinton and we didn't get much. I don't blame Clinton for DOMA or Don't Ask Don't Tell but I do blame him for the lack of ENDA and for the fact we didn't get hate crimes after Shepherd died. I want a President who will stand up for me and my rights. I won't simply shut up and hope it happens. Dean will do that and I know it from the fact he has.

[Demo Gog]

14. Dean won't do that.

Vermont is simply not a microcosm of the entire country. In the unlikely event that Dean would even get elected president, public opinion and Congress would just not allow such a drastic action. Which is sad, because while I may not be a huge fan of Dean, I think his work on passing civil unions in VT, was the single best thing he's done in his political career.

[dsc]

16. I tihink that national civil unions is on the unlikely side of life

but I do think that Dean will fight for ENDA and hate crimes and do so more strenuously than Clinton did and I think he will pass it.

[Demo Gog]

19. I'll agree with that.

[Valjean]

30. A hate crime is still just a crime

Killing homosexuals has ALWAYS been illegal. They are human beings and covered under the typical murder statutes. There is no need for a law against killing homosexuals.

I know that you would like to feel "more" protected than a white male, but the white males don't see it that way. Besides, if you check statistics, you'll find that a lot more hetero white males are killed every year than gays.

Hate crimes legislation for blacks were targeted against some VERY specific activities that had been practiced for decades in the South. Specifically, if someone put a burning cross on your lawn, it meant that the local Klan meant to lynch you. The number of these events (cross burnings AND lynchings) were staggering.

It's simply not the same thing. And I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who doesn't hate gays, doesn't think it's a choice, and believes in civil unions.

Please try to keep in mind that gays are a minority of minorities. The issues that are peculiar to you are likely to be strange to the ear of the majority. It is the job of the activist to sensitize people to these issues (Martin Luther King style). The activists job is NOT to pass legislation that FORCES people accept something they believe is a sin against god.

[Demo Gog]

37. Hmmm....

"The activists job is NOT to pass legislation that FORCES people accept something they believe is a sin against god."

50 years ago African Americans were considered, by some, to be inferior to whitey. Some believed in this archaic idea because of religion. The activist's job is to influence, yes, but if necessary to FORCE, when change simply has to take place, regardless of outdated religious beliefs. Gay rights may be nearing that time...

[funky_bug]

15. Dean just lost his gay and lesbian base

All those gays and lesbians that supported him from the beginning were kicked out of his platform tonight. If he thinks that MY brother will vote for him, since he doesn't matter, then he can think again. I just got off the phone with my brother, who attended a BIG party with nearly 100 Dean supporters tonight. They turned on the debate and prepared to watch their champion rise from the fire refined.

He said they were tearing down their Dean signs. They feel sold out, and they're pissed.

Now, if nearly 100 gay and lesbian democrats in Indiana feel that way, I can suspect it will travel at least a tad bit further.

The scream they looked past. This they will not. Ever.

[dsc]

18. that is absurd

While I would have loved to hear him use the word bigotry he will fight for us and I think most gays know the whole election isn't about us. And that is all Dean said.

[funky_bug]

22. Call it absurd

But there are 100 gay and lesbian Hoosiers looking for a new champion.

[dsc]

24. I find it hard to believe that gays in Indiana

of all places, would be that freaked out by that answer when it came from someone who campaigned on civil unions. I frankly felt it was a perfectly reasonable answer.

[funky_bug]

26. That's your prerogative

I'm just commenting on a small section of rural Indiana. But my bro is quite the activist, and he said they felt sold out. For them, one of Dean's big selling points was the Vermont civil unions.

They were beaten up badly in Bush the Lesser's SOTA, and they were hoping that at least ONE of the candidates would come out in their defense. Sadly, not only did that NOT happen, but Dean played it off by saying it wasn't a big issue.

I know, by your avatar, that you understand the struggles of trying to obtain equal citizenship (I won't call it equal rights, as rights are inherant, but citizenship is being infringed upon.) It is, for them, as big an issue for them as jobs, IWR, Patriot, ad infinitum. It is their lives, their security... I can't speak for them, I can only tell you what my brother said.

[Valjean]

35. As a resident of Indiana ..

As a fellow resident of Indiana. I can guarantee you that you won't get even CIVIL unions in Indiana anytime soon. You'll have to wait for other states to blaze that trail.

Contractual agreements can make up for most of that. And many corporations already recognize civil unions (assuming any of us will have ANY benefits in 3 years).

I would gladly be in favor of civil unions (not the same thing as marriage). But my neighbors are largely pretty hostile to the idea. If you push the issue, they will vote for Bush again.

[funky_bug]

39. Preaching to the choir

I lived there for over 25 yrs. Small town, bible belt, closed minded, Wal-mart shoppin, pick-up drivin', PTO-attendin' freeps.

Thus the let down. Maybe they're all drunk right now, I dunno. I'll give him a day or two to cool off, and then see where he's at.

Mostly, he's just wounded from a life time of small town "values" and the SOTA.

[AP]

45. What you need is a committment to considering GLB issues within framework

of consititution. If you want all the legal rights government confers on married people, you need an AG, courts (and maybe a federal law down the line) which say they're not going to deny those rights to same-sex couples. You don't need a national civil unions law.

It's like civil rights. You start in the courts with a few smart cases which aren't about "marriage" but are just about equal protection (and, soon, separation of church and state).

[Valjean]

33. I'm sure he's troubled

Think about what you are saying. Dean risked alienating 2-10% of voters for the sake of NOT alienating 90% of voters.

I'm serious. Americans DO NOT WANT GAY MARRIAGE!!!!!!

I'm sorry. But the alternative is electing Bush again. And you know damn well what he wants to do.

[Kipepeo]

59. uhh

Would you please quit screaming about who does and who does not want gay marriage? Are YOU America?

Thank you, but I've seen polls that go both ways on the issue and although I know there are tons of homophobes out there I still believe that the majority of Americans, no, DEMOCRATIC voters will not be turned off by a candidate who is for Gay Marriage or Civil Unions.

You keep screaming and screaming that they shouldn't make it a big issue, but yours is the only thread I see about this way up at the top so it seems you're making a bigger issue of it than anyone else on DU right now anyway.

And finally, I don't think Dean has alienated anybody. He has done more for gay and lesbians than any of the other candidates and I will *not* as a supporter of his urge him to try to hide or play down that support.

[slinkerwink]

50. um, Dean specifically mentioned he'd signed the civil unions bill in the

debate, and there's an ad out in NH that mentions that also.

[cthrumatrix]

17. You guy his 20/20 interview was "OUTSTANDING"...a must see

[kentuck]

20. That was probably the most important comment from the debate...

Along with Kucinich's points about the number of jobs lost.

[Disandra]

21. I watched this debate with my dad....

...I convinced him to after I showed him the link to the whole "scream speech" (before that he thought Dean was a lunatic), and managed to convince him to just sit and watch the debate with an open mind.

Dad is a life-long Republican (not-neoCON, just a nice conservative guy who hates what Bush is doing to the country, mostly ticked off at him for spending money "like it is growing on trees.").

Dean said this and my DAD jumped up and applauded. He also said "here I thought Dean was a raving lunatic, but he makes some sense." I printed out some campaign stuff from Dean's website for him.

He may not agree with all of Dean's positions (like I don't, but for different reasons), but is now thinking (for the first time in his life) about voting for a Democrat.

Now excuse me while I do a hysterical yell: GO DEAN!

[cthrumatrix]

25. he hit a home run...plain and simple

[DFLer4edu]

28. Dean's position works

I agree with you that the main plank of Dean's campaigning platform should not be gay rights. He needs to focus on jobs, education, and healthcare. And that is what he is doing. His stance on gay marriage(as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong) is that it is for the states to decide. At first this seemed to me to be a weak position on gay rights, but on closer inspection it is ingenius for a number of reasons.
#1 During an election the Republicans will try to make this a major issue, they will blast him for supporting gay marriage. When he is attacked on this issue he can use states' rights as cannon fodder, and hopefully avoid the issue during the campaign. America isn't ready for a canidate who openly supports gay marriage on a national level.
#2 Once in office, if a Republican controled Legislature forced through legislation on the issue he can veto the bill, again using states' rights as cannon fodder.
#3 If it comes up in favor of gay rights, he can have a coming out party, pardon the pun. If legislation supporting gay rights crosses his desk, he'll sign it.

Sadly, America isn't ready for a canidate who stands up and speaks up for gay rights, so you have to play down the issue during the campaign. But if Dean gets the chance as president to do something for gay rights I think he'd do it.

Go Dean!

[newyawker99]

43. Hi DFLer4edu!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[DFLer4edu]

58. Thanks!

[Fleshdancer]

31. Equal rights does not wait until the South is ready

or when Republicans are "comfortable" with it. It's an important issue and I'm tired of playing by the rules when the game is bigotry.

[Disandra]

36. Here we go with the South thing again....

There are three states that have a ban on gay marriage in their Constitution: Alaska, Nevada, and Nebraska (none, if my Geography is correct, are located in the South).

Right now, Georgia is considering a ban be added in the GA Constitution. What the repukes are afraid of is those "activist" judges actually applying the law to all citizens (we do have a "definition" of marriage law, but it is a statute, meaning if it gets to the courts it could be overturned). No way this will pass in the Senate (which is Democratic).

Please, please, do us Southern Liberals a favor and stop lumping us in with the Republicans, okay? Thanks. :-) (By the way, I agree with the rest of your statement!).

BTW--here is a link for you from the Atlanta newspaper:

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/0104/22leggay.html

[IndianaGreen]

34. The issue is that Christians should not be telling Jews who we can marry!

Here is the point of view about gay marriage from rabbis Dennis and Sandy Sasso of Indianapolis's Beth-El Zedeck Temple, the Conservative/Reconstructionist congregation of which I am a member:

Dennis & Sandy Sasso
A different view of Bible's message on homosexuality

January 20, 2004

When Britney Spears marries a young man in Las Vegas on a whim and then quickly files for an annulment, what does that tell us about the sanctity of marriage in our society? When men and women in marital relationships abuse one another, are disloyal and disrespectful, then the holiness of the marital covenant is debased. But when two people of the same or different gender commit to a loving partnership based on trust, caring and commitment then, most assuredly, God blesses that relationship, and society should do likewise.

• The Bible tells us that homosexual relations are prohibited.

Taking the Bible literally, out of its historical and social context, is dangerous. Strangely enough, many of those who claim to take the Bible at its word usually have selective hearing. The same people who listen to what Scripture says in regard to homosexual behavior turn a deaf ear to what it says, for example, regarding the violation of the Sabbath or the observance of dietary laws.

The Bible speaks of animal sacrifice, slavery and polygamy. However, a religious community in search of God begins to understand that these are not eternal divine mandates but historic human constructs. Animal sacrifice ceases; slavery and polygamy are outlawed with good "religious" reasons. The scriptural texts that speak of kindness to animals, of human freedom, of forgiveness and understanding testify against those texts that preach the opposite.

In other words, we must learn to look at the overarching divine principles of love and justice and learn to use sacred texts that teach the values of equality, human dignity and fairness to critique those texts that do not. We must understand the few negative biblical references to homosexuality in light of those verses that counter such statements by affirming that all people are created in the image of God and that celebrate human companionship.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/113054-6897-021.html

[David Zephyr]

38. Kicking to the Top to Showcase Valjean's Digging a Hole

Kick.

[David Zephyr]

42. Kicking One More Time For The Night Crowd to Get to Know Valjean!

Poof!

[Valjean]

44. Thanks for the publicity

Thank you for the publicity, I appreciate. I am no more afraid of it than Dean should be afraid of the media playing his "screech" three thousand times.

There are some democrats out there that think you have to be lefty about everything in order to be morally "right" with Democrats. Well, I'm trying to show people that this is NOT the case.

I'm trying to show people the reasons why Democrats are having such a hard time communicating their message to folks in the "red" states. What do I get back, a bunch of labels and accusations of bigotry and homophobia.

Do me a favor. Go read "Blinded by the Right" by David Brock. It's an excellent glimpse on what turns a gay man into a Republican Shill. So called "liberals" aren't as free speech as they like to claim. And the left can be just as nasty as the right when it comes to rhetoric (save they are MUCH better funded).

The things the democratic party is saying ISN'T WORKING. You aren't convincing voters. You are ALIENATING them. Yeah, Bush lied, but he still polls better than EVERY Democrat in the field right now. This is DESPITE him now having a job approval rating less than 50%.

So you tell me why people aren't "getting" the Democratic message. Maybe the message is unpalatable. Maybe the Democratic party itself is intolerant to individuals who want to de-prioritize gay issues.

No I say. That is not the way to run a political party. You draw your support BASED ON DEMOCRACY!!! You run on WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT!! It's up to advocates to push new issues as Medgar Evars and Martin Luther King did. When public support is high enough, the politicians step in and finish the job.

Is this weak on leadership???? Only if you believe that ordinary citizens are ignorant. Besides that doesn't mean you can try to convince constituents of something, but ultimately acquiesce to their will. THATS DEMOCRACY!!!!!!

I respect this battle for gay civil rights. But I don't think it should be placed ANYWHERE near the front of the platform. The ACTIVISTS have not done their job yet. There is no majority. In fact and the issue is INCREDIBLY unpopular!!!!!

It makes no sense to go down in a flame of glory because your taking EVERYBODY ELSE with you!!! It's not heroic. It's selfish!!!!


Now before you get all your feathers in a ruffed up, remember there is ANOTHER minority group out there who is trying to force their views upon others. They are fundamentalist Christians. They want EVERYONE to be required to follow their faith.

You folks don't like them, but their democratic sin is the same. They assume they have the right to push their agenda on an unwilling public. We have a hard enough time fighting these liars on issues like prayer in schools without dealing with gay marriage and gay "job protection". MIDDLE AMERICA HATES THESE ISSUES!!!

So you are in effect giving power to the other side which is VIOLENTLY HOSTILE toward you as opposed to Democrats who are accepting.

Please get this issue. Please try to understand this.

There is a Republican Bonesman freak in the white house. The House is ruled by zealots, the Senate isn't much better. Our guys in the Senate are spineless weenies.

WHAT MAKES YOU BELIEVE THAT THESE ISSUES WILL BE EVEN REMOTELY SUCCESSFUL UNDER THIS POLITICAL CLIMATE????? Do you understand the peril this nation is in????? Do you understand that these assholes are trying to eliminate Democracy a few rights at a time???? Do you realize that those zealots will label you as "diseased" and put you away if they accomplish their goals????

And what are you worried about??? Your gay "rights" for the 2-10% of Americans that this affects. Do you want to hold Democrats hostage over "gay rights" and dangle us over the precipice of tyranny?

I'd rather the issue just go away for a while until we have AT LEAST ONE body of federal government in hand. Because if that Chimp gets reelected and puts those infernal vote stealing machines in place, WE ARE ALL FUCKED!!!!!

So please, drop the subject and let it stay dropped until we have a PRAYER of doing something about it.

[FredScuttle]

46. Pardon my french

but if Middle America isn't ready for civil rights for all citizens, then fuck Middle America. You claim to respect the battle for GLBT civil rights but you want to kick it to the closet, out of sight and out of mind, because a straw poll in Oklahoma revealed that a couple farmers are uncomfortable with Gay Pride Parades...yeah, uh-huh.


Just wait until they come after you...

[DFLer4edu]

49. Pardon mon français,

mais si le partie démocratique visse les Américains moyens, le partie démocratique visse le partie démocratique, et ou est-ce que serait le droit gai alors? Les citoyens doivent parler à haute voix alors pour le droit gai, mais le partie démocratique ne peut pas visse les Américains moyens. Pardon mon français.

Va Dean!

[AntiCoup2K4]

52. Funny you should bring up Martin Luther King.

because 40 years ago, people were using the exact same arguments against African Americans that you are using against gays & lesbians. You say it's not the same thing? How the fuck is bigotry any different from bigotry?

As for people who would "label you as "diseased and put you away", that is exactly WHY this type of discrimination can no longer be tolerated. The Bush Criminal Empire is already following the historical path of Hitler. Give them another term and they will continue down that bloody path and concentration camps for gays, among many other groups they find "unacceptable" will be the eventual result.

The point is, as I said before, and as Dean & Edwards both said in the debate last night, is that the Repukes should not be allowed to frame the debate. Howard Dean got a lot of shit for his comment about the "guys in pickup trucks" but only from those who didn't get the obvious truth in what he said. People in the South need education, health care, and jobs too, and they won't get them with the fraudulent chimp in the White House. But they won't get that if they're distracted by The Bush Media Terror Spin : SODOMITE TERRORISTS ARE COMING TO CONVERT YOUR CHILDREN TO HOMOSEXUALITY AND EAT YOUR CATS!!

They can't plant that lie if they get drowned out when they try to use it. Then, once those Nazi assholes are out of the White House, real progress in these issues will be possible.

As far as the weak assed 2-10% argument, the best response to that is what Martin Luther King himself said. No one is truly free as long as others are oppressed

[David Zephyr]

47. Kick.

[Valjean]

48. Back Kick!!!!!

Right back at ya!!!!!!

[David Zephyr]

51. Breaking News: American Public More Liberal Than Thread's Author Thinks

Thanking Beetwasher for breaking this in LBN just minutes ago:

Conservative group quietly drops plans for poll

Thu Jan 22, 8:47 PM ET

SUMMARY: The conservative American Family Association will not take the results of its marriage poll to Capitol Hill after a majority of respondents favored same-sex marriage.

The conservative American Family Association (AFA) said it will not take the results of its marriage poll to Capitol Hill after a majority of respondents favored same-sex marriage, according to a Thursday report in Wired News.

The AFA posted the poll online in December with a stated intention to forward the results to Congress as evidence of U.S. opposition to same-sex marriage. Respondents could select one of these three choices:

"I favor legalization of homosexual marriage."

Whole Story:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=101&e=5&u=/po/conservativegroupquietlydropsplansforpoll

[DFLer4edu]

53. If you continue to read the artical...

it says, "On Jan. 6, the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network discussed the AFA poll with expert Bob Witeck, who said that since it was not a scientific survey, its results could not be considered meaningful data. According to Witeck, legitimate polls show support for gay marriage somewhere between 40 to 50 percent -- and growing."
This suggests that the country is divided. There are a number of things wrong with this poll as far as I can see:
#1 it is not scientific
#2 to answer the question, you had to have the internet, this rules out many people who do not have the internet
#3 The idiots posted it on their website! Which means it was probably flooded with people who read liberal and/or gay online publications, (because all it would take were some links and then we could tell them what we thought!) a group which does not represent middle America.
#4 The poll fails to ask how much they care about the issue and whether they vote for one party or another, or whether they vote at all!

Do you really want to gamble the election on gay rights? Because if you gamble and you lose, you lose gay rights. However, if you don't make it an issue in the campaign, and you win the election, then you can do some thing meaningful for gay rights!

[David Zephyr]

54. I Can't "Gamble" With The Election.

But thanks for granting me so much power over the gay community in your mind.

By the way, describe what you mean by "meaningful". This should be fun.

[DFLer4edu]

55. Meaningful

Meaningful means that a sitting president who has the power to do something does something. For example, he works to allow gays to serve openly in the military, he works for marriage or civil unions for gays, whichever you prefer, he stands up and says this isn't right. Americans need to have equal rights regardless of their sexual orientation. He works to put this philosophy into law. He says that the parts of the bible which forbid homosexual acts are arcane, just as the parts on slavery are. That would be meaningful. But losing the election because our candidate says all of this before he can do all this is not meaningful. As a person I cannot ignore this injustice, but as a politician, candidates must wait for the proper time to unleash a campaign for gay rights. If you want to rule you have to win!

P.S. You knew that I meant about gambling the election. But do you still think the poll is valid evidence that America is more liberal?

[DFLer4edu]

56. And here is the link to the link!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=113&topic_id=5562
Do you still think the poll is valid evidence that America is more liberal?

[DFLer4edu]

57. Kick

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1053341
Do you still think the poll is valid evidence that America is more liberal?