When did "pro-abortion" become a bad thing to women? I remember

[saracat]

when women marched and died under that banner! Why are we now using softball phrases to diminish that right? Democrats even react in fear saying"pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion" . Supporting the idea of legalized abortion as a choice doesn't mean you personally will have one! I am pro-abortion. I believe that women have a right to be allowed this medical procedure along with any other reproductive medical procedures .

[wtmusic]

1. I believe it too

"Pro-abortion" sounds to me like you favor it over birth control. Why kill a fetus if it's not necessary?

[genius]

126. I think abortions are terrible things. But I'm pro-choice.

Seriously, ask any expectant mother who wants her child if what is inside her is life. I don't believe in judging anyone who has one and I am opposed to restricting the right to choice, but, if I had a friend who was considering one, I'd frankly try to talk her out of it. Personally, I think that abortions are much more convenient for men. They don't get the guilt or the regrets. I doubt that women get off so lightly. There are a lot of women who try very hard to have children and it's not easy for them to understand discussions of people being pro-abortion.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. It's all semantics.

Somehow, people have depicted being pro-choice as saying you're actively wanting to go out and have a dozen abortions just for the fun of it.

[onehandle]

3. The RW uses that expression constantly.

Fox News virtually owns it.

[Warpy]

4. It was always a bad thing. Nobody LIKES abortion.

It's embarrassing, expensive and painful. It's also a lifesaving operation in many cases, since the alternatives may include butchery by amateurs or suicide.

[saracat]

6. It wasn't ALWAYS a bad thing! It represented a women's right to take

control over her own body! There are women for whom birth control fails that simply don't want to be mothers. Abortion provides them that option. This is not to say abortion is a form of birth control , but it should be available for those times when birth control fails. Other wise , "biology is destiny".

[housewolf]

59. I am pro-Abortion RIGHTS but not necessarily pro-abortion

I believe that women have the right to choose and that abortion is a legitimate choice. I had one, I have not regrets about it, it was absolutely the right choice for me at the time.

Nonetheless, to my way of thinking, "pro-abortion" means advocating abortion, pushing for it over other choices, being out there encouraging women to have abortions and talking about the benefits and good points of increasing the number of abortions. In other words, the use of "pro-" to my mind equates to an activist advocacy position and I believe this to be an untenable and inappropriate position.

I don't believe abortion is the right choice for everyone in every situation. It is an individual matter. It is always a difficult choice and sometimes has devestating physical, mental and emotional consequences. It is not a choice to be made lightly. It requires much soul-searching and introspection by each woman to make the correct choice for her.

Therefore I believe that abortion advocacy is in inappropriate position. Yes, abortions should be safe, legal and available. But they are not something like clean air or water that are a universal benefit. Abortion is NOT a universal good - it is an individual matter. In some sense it is more like the choice to use alcohol - there are some who benefit and some who are devestated by it and that makes its use, in my opinion, inappropriate to advoacte its use.

I am pro-abortion RIGHTS but I do not advocate abortions. I stand with those who believe in the inherent right of a woman to defend, protect and care for her body as she sees fit. Yet I would much prefer to see better sex and birth control education and greater availability of birth control measures, including ru-486. This, to me, is the proper advocacy position.

So while I do not advocate abortions I am a strong advocate of abortion RIGHTS. Abortion rights should not be compromised. But the act of abortion is a difficult moral issue for individuals that should not be taken lightly nor pushed for, in my opinion. It's something that each woman must decide for herself.

As another poster said, it's a semantic issue, pro-abortion vs. pro-abortion RIGHTS. They are not the same thing.

[JerseygirlCT]

145. Very well put. I completely agree!

[MemphisTiger]

7. This is going to sound kind of harsh but...

do you have any documentation to back up your many cases claim?

[rodeodance]

8. lots of documention (look up the studies) that women to not use abortin

as their primary method of brith control(as, say, as opposed to taking the pill or some other natural method). I the sme time there ARE some that do and this is what those who oppose abortion pounce and and make and issue of.

[MemphisTiger]

10. I was referring to the claim that it is life saving in MANY cases

BTW, if YOU made the claim YOU look it up and provide documentation.

[beam me up scottie]

16. How about:

"Worldwide an estimated 68 000 women die as a consequence of unsafe abortion."
http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/pages_resources/listing_unsafe_abortion.html

and

" Every day, 55,000 unsafe abortions take place – 95% of them in developing countries. They are responsible for one in eight maternal deaths. Globally, one unsafe abortion takes place for every seven births.1"
http://www.safemotherhood.org/facts_and_figures/unsafe_abortion_fact.htm

and
"Out of nearly 50 million abortions performed in the world each year (30 million of them in developing countries), 19 million are unsafe.

# Close to 90 per cent of all unsafe abortions take place in developing countries. In 94 per cent of these countries, induced abortion is restricted by law. The risk of dying from an unsafe abortion in a developing country is 1 in 250 procedures, while in developed countries it is 1 in 3,700 procedures."
http://www.peopleandplanet.net/pdoc.php?id=210


want more?

[MemphisTiger]

26. What about adoption? That way no one has to endure

a dangerous abortion procedure?

[beam me up scottie]

32. Okay. When you get pregnant you can put yours up for adoption.

[saracat]

41. You are obviously anti-choice. Why don't you argue for better

and more effective birth control? Many of those abortions wouldn't have to take place if the woman had access to reliable birth control! And what about adoption? What about people that DON"T want to give birth, whatever their reasons are? Some people don't want to give birth because they don't want to add to the surplus population. The last thing we really need on this planet is more people. And there are many othere reasons as well for those that choose not to have children.

[MemphisTiger]

50. I guess you get to determine when the planet is too full

I'm all for birth control. Not to sound like a republican, but it's a personal responsibility issue. You have to use the birth control for it to work, and it only works 97% of the time depending on the method. If you play you might pay. That's life.

[saracat]

60. I didn't say I determined anything. I said some people might have that

as a reason NOT to want to give birth. Why do you think all people whp become pregnant MUST give birth? And why is it your business? And as a male , you particularly shouldn't have a say as it isn't something you ever will have to do. Why is this an issue that concerns you?

[MemphisTiger]

84. This is an issue that concerns everyone

This is why it concerns you. Why don't males have a say? That is sexism. You've shown your true colors. The male is the father too, just as much as the mother. Mothers sure want child-care from the father after the child is born. The father deserves a say in the matter. Any other view is sexist.

[beam me up scottie]

91. When you are pregnant

then you can have a say over your pregnancy-just yours, until then, please stay out of MY womb.

[Scout]

93. if they are going to worry about their sperm....

they should be more careful where they leave it.

[beam me up scottie]

99. Wouldn't that be men taking responsibility for THEIR actions?

Good point!
:thumbsup:

[MemphisTiger]

102. It takes two to make a baby

Yes the male should be responsible for his sperm, but once his sperm has made life he should get a say in the future of that baby.

[beam me up scottie]

113. No, if he wants to be a daddy

he can find a woman that WANTS to have his baby.

[Warren DeMontague]

135. So how many sperm does a man "murder" in an average week?

...heartless bastards.

[saracat]

124. Sexist? When males have to have their body occupied by a parasite

that lives off of them for nine months bloating their bodybeyond recognition causing extreme discomfort,fatigue and nausea, only to emerge in a hail of blood and pain, with an obligation to be nurtured and supported for eighteen years at a minimum , will men have an equal say in whether a woman gives birth. You dare bring up child support. Most men don't pay it. It is simply not enforceable. It is difficult when the couple are married .It is impossible when they are not! How many rapists pay child support? How many teenage fathers can pay child support? Their are wealthy men who don't pay child support because they choose not too. I have one of those in my own family! I have researched this system. How many men do you think have had to give up their education or any hope of a career because of an unexpected child? Or had it made horrendously difficult? You really do believe that "biology is destiny" and that the mother is not as important as the fetus! What you require is that a woman give up her entire life for a person who does not yet exist. And she must do this because she is the one who can get pregnant.THAT is SEXIST!

[FromTheLeft]

58. Do you know

what life is like for children that are put up for adoption? Many are placed immediately into wonderful caring homes and have lives no different from anyone elses...

Then there are the thousands that are shuffled from state care facilities to foster homes and back again. Never knowing what a family is. Many of these children are abused physically and sexually. Many never receive proper education.

I am against abortion and will beg and plead with any woman that becomes pregnant by our actions not to have one, but under no circumstances would I ever suggest anyone giving a child up for adoption.

[MemphisTiger]

89. That is exactly why we need to change the

adoption system in our country. On average it costs $15,000 dollars to adopt a child domestically. What about families with limited financial means that want to adopt? They are no less deserving. I plan on adopting a child in the future and work on changing the laws to make it easier for good people to adopt children that need a home.

[saracat]

125. I wonder what the definition of good people would be?

[ElectroPrincess]

106. But Abortion, yes or no, should NOT be decided by the federal government

if the nasty fundies and politicians HAVE to address this PRIVATE individual decision between a woman and her doctor, THEN limit such determinations to the individual states.

Get the damn government off of WOMEN'S BODIES ... this is a ruse, do you honestly think most fundies give a damn about "the act" itself. Most are patriarchal men who wish to keep women subservient OR in poverty.

You let the gutless wonder democrats and kiss a** republocrats address this with a "faith" solution, they will be OUTLAWING birth control next. No joke, this is their agenda - Limit women's rights.

This is a separation of Church and State matter.

As a devout practicing liberal Catholic, I will also not have an abortion and would counsel all those close to me to make the same decision. But you see ... just like Jesus understood = It's THEIR decision, NOT the Government's to make. <--- The foregoing is precisely why we should refuse to play the new fundie games of mixing religious morality and government. Just do NOT play!

So as not to be hypocritical in my Catholic faith, I also do NOT believe in execution either. However, if any issue that I could be morally weak on (Hang em' High!) it would be for those who kill CHILDREN. I have to dig down deep not to wish them dead by the state ... but I do not have that right if I wish to be a IMHO true practicing Catholic.

Also, I respect agnostics and atheists as much as anyone else. I've seen some very compassionate and morally sound people who often greatly outshine us who attend Mass every week.

It's NOT what (or the specifics of a) FAITH, but the our everyday actions that makes us "good people." When it comes to good deeds, we can easily *all* accept the generic goodwill of Humanism.

[MountainLaurel]

68. In most cases

It's not the abortion but pregnancy and childbirth that kill women. Even in the U.S., an abortion is safer than going through nine months of pregnancy and giving birth.

http://www.who.int/docstore/world-health-day/en/whday1998.html

http://www.safemotherhood.org/facts_and_figures/maternal_mortality.htm

http://www.childinfo.org/eddb/mat_mortal/

[MemphisTiger]

88. I never said that abortion is not safe for the MOTHER

I am concerned for the child

[Samurai_Writer]

132. Adoption is NOT a substitution for abortion!!!

Abortion is terminating a pregnancy.

Adoption is surrendering a child ALREADY BORN.

Of course, the adoption industry would LOVE to be able to have pregnant women sign over their rights to their children before birth if they could.

You go through 9 months of physical, emotional, and mental changes that last FOR LIFE, give birth and then just 'give up' your child. Then come back and tell me how much better adoption is than abortion.

Bella, who has surrendered a child for adoption and has had a 1st trimester abortion (95% of all abortions are in the first trimester). Guess which one did LASTING damage to not only me, but other family members as well (including my birthson, who was supposed to have a 'better life than what I could provide')? It sure as hell wasn't the abortion, buddy.

[MemphisTiger]

28. Your links talk about "developing" countries

How is the US a developing country? Thank you for playing, try again

[beam me up scottie]

31. Ummm, I believe the statement was:

"It's also a lifesaving operation in many cases, since the alternatives may include butchery by amateurs or suicide."

I used statistics that show the high mortality rate in coutries where abortion is illegal and unsafe to prove that many lives are saved because abortion is SAFE and LEGAL in this country.


get it now?

[MemphisTiger]

35. We can't legislate anything in those countries

while your concern for them is sweet, it is a waste of time.

[beam me up scottie]

38. What are you talking about?

Either you're confused or you took debating lessons from ann coulter.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

53. ann coulter school of debate honor roll student, weren't you?

the statement:
"in many cases, since the alternatives may include butchery by amateurs or suicide."

Your question:
"This is going to sound kind of harsh but...
do you have any documentation to back up your many cases claim?"

I provide 3 links showing that many women's lives are lost due to illegal unsafe abortion therefore showing many lives were saved by having access to safe and legal abortion.

WHERE does it say ANYTHING about the US or developing nations?

[MemphisTiger]

90. I guess you were the valedictorian.

You provide links to articles that talk about third world countries, while the topic is domestic abortions. You must be very proud. Tell Ann to eat something at the next alumni mixer.

[beam me up scottie]

95. owie that hurt

You thought about it all night and that's the best you can do?

Your question to Warpy's post: "It's embarrassing, expensive and painful. It's also a lifesaving operation in many cases, since the alternatives may include butchery by amateurs or suicide."
was
"This is going to sound kind of harsh but...
do you have any documentation to back up your many cases claim?"

And yet you still haven't figured out that access to safe legal abortions PREVENT deaths from botched ones.
Again, safe abortions SAVE MANY WOMEN'S LIVES in countries where it is legal, LIKE HERE IN THE US.

"do you have any documentation to back up your many cases"
YES
The documentation provides the PROOF that many women die from botched abortions in other countries where it is illegal THEREFORE since it is safe and legal HERE, IT SAVES LIVES HERE because if women HERE had to resort to back-alley abortionists MANY would die.
MANY
WOMEN'S
LIVES
SAVED
HERE

[MemphisTiger]

101. I didn't read you little post till this morning...

Still, if you insist on offering the same tired question that I have already reponded to I will offer the same response. Provide some studies that are based on the US, then we can discuss. Otherwise, we are comparing apples and oranges with third world countries compared to US. I can't believe you don't get this.

[beam me up scottie]

107. Reponded to?

How can you study how many women WOULD have died from botched abortions?
Do you want me to use the figure of how many women are still alive thanks to safe abortions?
One death from a botched abortion is one too many. That is how reasonable people justify keeping it legal and safe.
And I'm talking about the MOTHER's life, not the fetus since you seem to be unable to make that distinction.

[MemphisTiger]

116. So you think it's okay to put up a study about a third world country

and say it's applicable to the US? It's just not the same thing. If you keep asking me the same question, I'll give you the same answer. Find studies that apply to the US or other NON-third world country and we can discuss. Otherwise, us posting back and forth is a waste of time.

[beam me up scottie]

123. Duh, I think it's okay to show how many women lose

their lives in countries around the world because it illustrates how many lives are saved by legal abortion.
Tough concept: Dead women transcend borders.

Neither Warpy nor you SPECIFIED a country or even a region. If you need to read them again (I've re-posted them twice for your benefit-that should have been enough) but here they are again:

Warpy: "It's also a lifesaving operation in many cases, since the alternatives may include butchery by amateurs or suicide."

you: "This is going to sound kind of harsh but...
do you have any documentation to back up your many cases claim?"

Show me WHERE geography is referenced in these two posts.

[MemphisTiger]

129. You can't compare the CULTURE of a third world country

to the US. I'm sorry there are just too many differences. This is from one of your links

'Close to 90 per cent of all unsafe abortions take place in developing countries'

Your own sources confirm they are in developing countries. There are stark differences in culture from developing countries and the USA. Now, I haven't conducted any studies in this area, as I imagine you haven't either, but I can say that there is no way to determine the effect of unsafe abortions if a ban on abortion were instituted today in the USA. However, I will suck it up and say that I thought your were talking about pregnancies in general, not unsafe abortions originally. So, that's my fault for not reading the post twice before I replied.

"It's also a lifesaving operation in many cases..."

[beam me up scottie]

130. I understand your angst and I

am sorry this must be a painful subject for you.
But women in this country will never go back to the way things were. Many of us will do whatever is necessary to make sure abortions are safe and accessible regardless of whether they are legal or not.
Your efforts would really be better spent helping the children that are already here. Since I read that you are trying to adapt a child you recognize how badly parents are needed for these kids. I wish you the best on your pending adaption.

[Karenina]

15. And SO WHAT if she DID

use it as primary birth control? SO WHAT? Her body, her bidness.

[saracat]

19. Exactly.

[MemphisTiger]

25. What about the BIDNESS of that child?

[saracat]

36. So a fetus has the same rights as a woman?

[MemphisTiger]

37. Yes, why not? Who are you to play God.

[saracat]

43. And who is anyone to force a woman to have a child she doesn't choose?

Or to except someone elses version of when life begind? Let woman make their own choices. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one.

[MemphisTiger]

86. Ask the baby inside if he/she want's an abortion

[Scout]

94. Since a fetus can't think, speak and has no concept of

anything whatsoever, I'd say that's one of the stupidest comments ever in an abortion thread.

[saracat]

65. Woman can't be equal to men unless they have self determination

over their own bodies. Men have self detrmination over their own bodies. But you must believe "biology is destiny" !

[MemphisTiger]

87. Women are equal to men, what 1950's world are you

living in?

[beam me up scottie]

98. The fact that we are still fighting people like you

so that we can have control over our bodies proves that we are anything but equal.

[MemphisTiger]

103. You can have control over YOUR body

but leave the baby out of this. Pregnancy is no time to be selfish. If you are going to die due to the pregnancy, I understand, but otherwise it's just murder in my opinion.

[beam me up scottie]

110. There is no baby.

But if there is a fetus in MY womb it's MY decision. That's called having control over my body.
And of course when you get pregnant, I will certainly let you make your own choice.

[Scout]

119. I am taking control of MY body....

by getting the fetus's body un-attached from and out of MINE.

[Scout]

79. If God doesn't want a woman to have an abortion....

then HE should do something about it, and everyone else can butt the fuck out.

[ElectroPrincess]

112. if God wanted humanity to fly (lame?) it's the individual woman's decision

with the consultation of her doctor, and agreed! = "everyone else can butt the f*ck out." ;)

[ElectroPrincess]

114. Back at you MephisTiger :-) "Who are you to play God?"

[MemphisTiger]

142. Wow, you just pulled the "I know you are but what am I"

argument. How can I come back from that? Touche :eyes:

[justsomegirl]

121. "Who are you to play God..."

...and who are you to decide which God is mine?

[Warren DeMontague]

134. So I assume you favor criminalization of the birth control pill...

since it can act to prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg, or "baby".

I take it you feel that women who have illegal abortions should be prosecuted for murder. So should women who drink or smoke early on in pregnancy and miscarry.

I take it you feel that women who have IUDs should be arrested for "harboring a murder weapon".

These, and many other wonderous eventualities, are logically inescapable if you take it as axiomatic truth that the second sperm meets egg, the microscopic product of their union is a "baby" (with full 14th amendment rights) and, you are truly interested in being ethically consistent.

[El Fuego]

140. Early on it's just part of the woman's body, not a separate entity

A woman can elect to have it removed from her body if she wishes, just like her appendix. A zygote has no more rights than your tonsils. The body is a sovereign state, and you can play God over your own body.

[Karenina]

61. What "child?"

You wanna worry your "beautiful mind" about a CHILD, Saigon68 over in LBN got LOTS OF PHOTOS OF WORTHY CANDIDATES.

[MemphisTiger]

104. Huh?

[bicentennial_baby]

67. A fetus is not a child

it's a fetus.

[MemphisTiger]

105. That's certainly your opinion, but mine differs

[Scout]

120. your opinion

is not sufficient justification to deny another person's their rights.

[saracat]

12. Ha! Ha! Ha! ha! They should provide proof?

Do you have any proof that the sun comes up? Haven't you EVER heard of ectopic pregnancies , breech births? Etc? Haven't you ever heard of wome who are physically incapable of giving birth? In my state, AZ, just recently , an abortion was perfornmed on a nine year old ,pregenant, rape victim. She was too young to give birth!

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

14. You aren't allowed to refer to another poster as "dumb"!

And I assure you I am anything but stupid. The original question implies an almost shocking lack of biological knowledge. I was merely pointing out that proof of the obvious ought not to have to be provided! There would obviously be many as there are many life threatening reasons to perform abortions!

[MemphisTiger]

27. You asked an "off topic" question that had nothing to do

with the topic in this thread. Spin it any way you want.

[Warpy]

21. Check out mortality statistics in countries where it's illegal

The largest cause of death for women of childbearing age is illegal abortion.

[sandnsea]

9. It was women's ticket to independence

That's what it was. The only way women could truly have control over their future. Birth control fails. You never know who is going to be the one to have it fail, but there will always be someone. Abortion is often the only option for women if they want to maintain their economic independence. Without economic independence, there's no independence. Women knew that in the 70's. I don't know what the hell happened since then.

And I don't remember anybody worshipping fetal cells then either.

[bicentennial_baby]

66. Embarassing? Hardly

I'm not now nor have I ever been embaraaed by my abortion, and it wasn't particularly painful or expensive either. I'm proud that I made the correct decision for me and for my future. No regrets, abortion without apology.

[zanne]

108. Or dying in childbirth.

Remember, Republicans want to outlaw abortion even if the health of the mother is in danger. My grandmother died during childbirth, leaving seven children to a terrible childhood. My mother once told me that when her mother was buried, she wanted to throw herself into the grave with her.

[cestpaspossible]

5. I'm a man who's against abortion.

Therefore I won't have one.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Now here is a man that

gets it!
kudos!
:headbang:

[seabeyond]

17. no one is pro abortion, all are pro choice

and i hear you

gotta get off pro abortion though. doesnt matter to you and i, but to the sensitve ear, means a lot

[saracat]

18. But those "sensative ears" aren't in favor of women's rights anyway!

Mosr believe a fetus has equal if not more rights than a woman. We didn't march for "partial rights' over our own bodies! And I am PRO ABORTION. I will not get off it. MY body . MY choice.

[seabeyond]

20. those sensitive ears need to be redirected

and i tlak this cause there are a lot of christian woman around me to their heart offended with the elimination of fetus, they have emotionalized the issue and created baby in fetus. just regular normal people

we have to pull them out of abortion to choice. and what is beyond stopping legal abortion. what do we create. and have them look beyond the fetus

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

22. That's not true AT ALL.

Take my mom for example. She is very much pro-choice, but wasn't until I explained to her the difference between pro-choice or pro-abortion and pro-life. And just for the record, my mother is neither stupid, nor apolitical. That's just how it hit her ear.

[MemphisTiger]

29. I understand the position of pro-choice

However, to say you are pro-abortion is to say you are pro-murder

[Ripley]

45. Funny how you MALES are always so LOUD about issues..

you personally will never have to deal with. If you think a fetus is equivalent to a woman you are a misogynist.

And I bet you're for the death penalty. Doesn't that mean you are pro-murder?

[MemphisTiger]

49. I'm actually against the death penalty, I'm consistent

How exactly is being pro-life misogynistic?

[Ripley]

51. Oh, maybe that little thing where you want to force sexually active

women to become vessels and incubators.

[MemphisTiger]

52. Nobody forced the woman to have sex, unless she is raped

In that case, it's a pretty sticky issue, but that's not what we are talking about.

[Ripley]

54. That is precisely what we are talking about.

You want to punish women who have sex by forcing them to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

And who in the hell do you think you are that you can refer to RAPE AS A STICKY ISSUE. That you admit you would force a woman to carry to term the impregnated sperm of a violent sociopathic rapist is proof of your misogyny.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

100. DING DING DING !!!

He said it.
We are all murderers.
I know Hillary said we should welcome anti-choice people in the party but shouldn't we draw the line at someone accusing us of murder?
How long should we spend in jail for our crimes?

[Warren DeMontague]

137. I can set my watch...

by how long it takes your average male pro-lifer to reveal their barely sublimated rage at sexually active women.

Complete with time-tested old favorites, like:

"Nobody forced them to have sex"

"They should keep their legs crossed"

"They should take responsibility for their immoral behavior"

Ready, set... GO!

[seabeyond]

64. no lets talk about that. tough shit if she is raped, incest which is

rape why we act as it is seperate i dont know, just a grosser rape, or mama gonna die, f* her, mama and baby gonna die, tough.

be consistant. if a law passes no abortion.........i will fight with everything i have for conditions not to be made. cause who the hell is anyone to decide when their preceived murder is ok and not

so i want to talk about rape incest and death of mom

[w4rma]

80. Woah, you can't use the argument that "nobody forced her" if you are anti-

choice ("pretty sticky issue") in cases of rape and incest, also.

[seabeyond]

62. and actually take responsibility for the male gender

that are equally resposible for these pregnancies yet not the consequences of action. if you are anti choice, then you should be the first and loudest yelling at male to be responsible with condoms and abstinence. if you are not as much on board with giving the male the responsibility in pregnancy, then you fail in your arguement and seriousness of aversion to abortion

[ElectroPrincess]

109. No I'm also pro-life 100%, however, I am NOT forcing my religious (moral)

beliefs upon other. Unlike, sadly, many of my fellow Catholics. We have NO right to FORCE others to behave "like us" just because the act of abortion is wrong for US.

The above is exactly what our fore-ancestors meant when they believed the judiciary *will protect the few from the tyranny of the many.* Just because a majority of people believe in either execution and/or anti-abortion, does NOT mean that the majority has the right to force other's into THEIR FAITH BASED (or moralist) beliefs.

You have NO right to judge people as murderers who are pro-abortion. The fetus cannot survive outside of the womb. It is not YOUR judgement call (faith based decision) to make.

[cap]

56. I trust that you have never had pre-marital sex

and dont have sex within marriage unless you are ready to have children from the consequence of that action.

No birth control, even the rhythm method, is 100 per cent accurate.

[Ripley]

57. Are you talking to me?

I think you must be talking to the other person because it sounds like you are agreeing with me. :hi:

[cap]

81. yes I am talking to you...

have you had pre-marital sex and if so, what method, if any, of contraception did you use.

[seabeyond]

63. first child rhythm method, second condom, then snip snip

for hubby

[MemphisTiger]

85. If a child is not conceived, it is not alive

What in the HELL are you getting at?

[Warren DeMontague]

139. Really. That's funny. The egg is alive. The sperm is alive.

All the genetic material is there.

The EXACT same amount of "potential" life is there.

Sure, if the sperm doesn't meet the egg, you won't end up with a baby 9 months later. But if the fertilized egg is stuck in your garden (as opposed to the WOMB of a WOMAN, who is the member of the equation the pro-life crowd loves to disregard) then it won't grow into a baby, either.

By turning the fertilized egg into a human being and disregarding the potential humanity of the unfertilized egg and sperms, you are discriminating and facilitating heartless murder.

SAVE THE PRECONCEIVED BABIES!

[beam me up scottie]

141. Wait!

Don't wash those sheets!

[ElectroPrincess]

115. Not true - I can be true to my faith with a Pro-Choice stance THAT

insists upon the separation of Church and State.

Honest, I don't "buy into" the Jesuit's notion of political stances either that's to the left.

I believe that we practice our faith with others AT Church.

The fruits of our faith is Humanity.

The decision a pregnant woman makes is her's and her's alone to make as long as the fetus is inviable (cannot live out of the womb).

Of course, I would pray and encourage someone close to me NOT to have an abortion.

However, I do not believe it's the government's right to control women's bodies.

It's ONLY the individual woman's private decision. I believe that Jesus would want women to decide for themselves ... I don't believe that Jesus would *FORCE* his will upon others.

That's why I find the anti-abortion fundies who foam at the mouth with rage, hypocritical, to say the least. :P

[seabeyond]

72. saracat, my bad

i am so sorry. i dont know why, but i didnt read your words, only you subject on both your original message and this one. i never, or rarely do that. generally i actually read the whole post.

ok, i hear what you are saying. and i am sorry, i dont know what happened ot my brain there for a moment.

so, personally no i am not pro abortion. truly innately, i am against abortion, personally. so personally i wont do it. but, i wont tell another either what to do. nor would i judge nor think less or anything else a woman that decided. hers to live with, has nothing to do with me. and i hope, always she can be ok. i do not want negative consequences for the woman

if i had been told my fetus was majorly deformed, or if i had been told i would die carrying out preg, i probably would not have issue with abortion. so in further thought, i dont know. i dont know what i would do if circumstances were such

so i will leave it there and support what you say.

[bicentennial_baby]

69. I am

I'm pro-abortion, and anyone who doesn't like it can truly kiss my ass. Abortion without apology.

[seabeyond]

71. i feel no need to kiss your ass, you are perfectly

allowed to hold your opinion

respectfully

so how about that. i knew putting no one, someone would speak out

[iconoclastNYC]

23. No woman is pro-abortion

If you know anyone who has had one you know that it is horribly traumatic. Even the debate on whether to have one or not is traumatic.

The issue is choice. The choice should be yours. Not the politicians , and not the clergy.

That's why it's pro-choice.

[dolstein]

24. Would you accept a "pro-choice" position on infanticide?

You can talk all you want about the virtues of "choice," and how such a personal and difficult decision ought to be left to the woman, not the state. But the truth of the matter is that your arguments simply aren't going to be persuasive to anyone who genuinely believes that abortion involves the murder of an innocent human being.

I believe that abortion should be legal, at least during the early stages of pregnancy when the overwhelming majority of abortions take place. But this is an easy position for me to hold, since I don't believe that aborting a pre-viable fetus is murder.

[iconoclastNYC]

30. Uhm, DUH

"Not being persuassive to anyone who genuinely believes that abortion involves the murder of an innocent human being."

This is 30% of the population or less. No political position will capture everyone, and it doesn't need to. Some people just have thier minds made up and will never change thier point of view.

I dont' know what your point is, other then to point out that some people think that abortion equals infanticide, which is not news to me.

Framing choice as a matter of individual liberity is the best way to keep it legal. Focusing on the fact that a minority of people think that Abortion is the same thing as killing a living breathing fully developed person is silly.

They are the minority, most people in America are pro-choice. That's why "NARAL" is now "NARAL Pro-choice America."

[Nederland]

118. Not true

"Not being persuasive to anyone who genuinely believes that abortion involves the murder of an innocent human being."

This is 30% of the population or less.

This is totally inaccurate. The truth is that public opinion on abortion is confusing. The percentage of Americans that believe abortion is murder is 57%, and yet 67% believe abortion should be legal in the early parts of pregnancy. I have no idea how to reconcile those numbers. However, poll after poll clearly shows that the percentage of the population that believes abortion should be legal drops as the pregnancy progresses. For example, 65% of Americans believe that abortion should be illegal in the 2nd and 3rd trimester.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll2.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll4.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll5.htm

[bicentennial_baby]

70. bullshit

It's not "horribly taumatic" for everyone. It sure as hell was not for me, and the decision was not either. Relatively simple choice, and I've had far more traumatic surgeries in my life than my abortion.

[Alenne]

78. I had one

and it was not traumatic. My two pregnancy were more traumatic then my abortion. That is why I decided to have one.

I am very much pro abortion.

[ElectroPrincess]

117. No one can speak for "all women" ... some women ARE pro-abortion

Sure, I also don't like it but it is a fact. I'm not going to force my religious beliefs upon others ... only hope that they will discover on their own with good examples from the community. However, if they are firm in their stance of pro-abortion, I have NO right to judge them harshly. Especially when it comes to controlling their bodies through governmental laws.

[Samurai_Writer]

136. I'm a woman, and I'm pro-abortion

And I've had an abortion. It was not traumatic. It was a RELIEF. Don't be putting words in people's mouths. Not ALL women find having an abortion traumatic, emotional, painful, etc. 1st trimester abortions are actually not very painful, last all of 30 seconds (if that long), and are statistically safer than giving birth.

Bella

[montana500]

33. when the right wingers took overthe media

nm

[mrgorth]

34. You sound like a monster.

[saracat]

39. You think the women who marched for abortion rights were "monstors'?

You don't think the people who forced women to bear children they didn't want were "monsters?" You believe"biology is destiny"?Just curious.
It is true that women died to give us these rights , just as women died to give us the right to vote. Were these women "monsters" too?

[mrgorth]

42. I favor abortion rights.

I just don't think it's so fucking ducky I want to say "pro abortion". You've got issues.

[saracat]

46. I am only pointing out that it was the original reason

woman marched. I don't think it would be a "great thing" or "fun" to have an abortion. I nursed my best friend through several of them. I couldn't understand why she didn't practice birth control! She had been raised to believe it was wrong! I personally probably wouldn't have an abortion. I have no issues but I support total abortion rights. I support a woman's right to totally control her own body.

[dorktv]

73. Actually Saracat,

no women in the US died for the right to vote. There was some physical torture but no actual deaths. :)

In England however, they DID have deaths from the force feeding.

And as an aside...I can hear your voice like they do on TV or in movies when I read your posts! hahahahaha Never thought that would happen.

[saracat]

74. tee hee! But women did die. That is the point, and probably more than

admitted too! The woman whose husband beat her to death upon her return from a suffragette rally equally dies for the right to vote as did a victim of the English jails or forced feeding! And Abortion Rights activists marched for the rights of their sisters who had already died because they had no choice!:pals:

[dorktv]

75. No kidding

I just rather use pro-choice because that is what it is.

[ElectroPrincess]

111. How can you be so sure? Question- What's the #1 killer of pregnant women?

Answer: Murder.

Humm ... we still are not free. Like those people of differing faiths and races, we must always stay alert so as not to fall back to servitude. If we remain complacent and continue to address this as anything more than a woman's personal decision with her doctor, we WILL become second class citizens once again.

[beam me up scottie]

40. Ladies, (and of course progressive gents)

How come we never see these brave pro-fetus people in the Choice and Reproductive Freedom forum?

[Demit]

44. Pro-choice is not a softball phrase. I don't use it out of fear.

I am a Democratic woman who, since the late 60s, has believed in the absolute right of a woman to have an abortion. Had one myself. It wasn't a choice made lightly. It was a gut-wrenching decision, an agonizing time, and I made the right choice. Thirty-five years later and I know I was right, right down to my toes.

But I don't go around saying Hey, abortion is great! You should try it! Everybody should have one!! Rather, I say, The right is there for you if that is the way you decide to go. It's your body; it's your choice.

There is a definite difference in those two phrases. You cannot tell me, no matter how many different ways you try, that when I say I am pro-choice what I really mean is I am pro-abortion. You can say it for yourself, perhaps; that's your choice.

[saracat]

48. I don't think pro-choice is a bad phrase, but I do think it is used

to soften the sound of pro abortion rights.Maybe I should have put the word "rights' in there as well. But pro choice usually means that you support the availability and the legality of abortion as a choice.

[Demit]

55. Exactly so! Rights, availability, choice.

[Beaverhausen]

76. How about "Pro safe and legal abortion."

[saracat]

77. That is good!

[bunkerbuster1]

92. I still prefer ANTI-CRIMINALIZATION

I don't know why we Dems can't ALWAYS point out that the other side wants to put doctors and their patients in JAIL. We even have an OK Senator who advocates the damn death penalty for abortion providers.

When push comes to shove, a solid majority of Americans don't believe that women should be made criminals for an elective termination of their pregnancy. We should exploit that. If we continue to be namby-pamby and use soft words like "choice", we'll lose.

I'm getting a little tired of having to point this out to y'all, btw.

[cynatnite]

82. Pro-choice works for me

I like pro-choice better than the other. It means just that. A choice.

I hate the use of pro-life because it means anything but that, IMO, especially when it comes to the RWer's using it. They support capital punishment, this obscene war and other 'let god sort 'em out' mentalities. They're anti-life and anti-choice when it comes to their agendas.

[WI_DEM]

96. I'm pro-choice

and I guess that means pro-abortion rights, but it also means to me that the woman has the sole choice of what she wants to do: she can abort if she isn't ready, she can put the baby up for adoption, she can have and keep the bb. That is what pro-choice means. Pro-lifers give the woman only one choice--and the radical ones even in cases of rape or incest--have that baby.

[Bettie]

97. Its semantics, but words have great power.

Its a reality that in our society, Pro-Abortion means, to many people (the sheep who do as they are told), that you want to make abortion the norm rather than an exception.

Pro-choice is, in my opinion, a better term. It also better portrays the reality of my position certainly.

A woman should be able to make her own choices in terms of her reproductive life.

She can choose to use birth control or not.

She can choose to bear children or not, she can choose to terminate a pregnancy or carry it to term.

All of these are HER CHOICES and each of those choices should be allowed and supported by our laws.

Just my .02.

Bettie.

[GOPBasher]

122. Maybe some Democrats are sick of losing the war of rhetoric

for no reason. Why call ourselves "pro-abortion" when that's a sure path to losing? We can say we're "pro-choice," which accomplishes the SAME EXACT THING, but is a much more popular way of putting it.

[MadisonProgressive]

127. I think it did when

the right-wackjobs started saying that we were all for using abortion as simply another form of birth control.

[im10ashus]

128. Just because someone is pro-life...

...doesn't make them pro-child. With inadequate health care and education in this country, it seems all these "pro-life" supporters let their support end at birth. Infant mortality in America is worse than in Cuba. CUBA! Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million. That's not pro-life to me.

[beam me up scottie]

131. Welcome to DU im10ashus !

We need a lot more like you around here!

[w4rma]

138. These right-wing "pro-lifers" are also usually anti-envirnoment, pro-death

penalty, pro-war in just about any situation, pro-poverty - meaning they try to force as many people into poverty as they can, etc. etc.

"Pro-life" is *definitely* not a term that describes them.

[Warren DeMontague]

133. As someone who is unapologetically pro-choice...

I think that the semantics you are referring to have to deal with the fact that, under any circumstances, surgical abortion is not a desireable outcome. I think pretty much everyone -on OUR side, at least- agrees that it is preferable for everyone concerned to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.

Safe, legal, affordable, effective and accessible birth control should be a no-brainer of a "middle ground" in the abortion wars.. but it isn't- because the major "pro-life" organizations and groups in this country are simultaneously waging a secret, and not-so-secret, war on birth control as well. Half of the agenda is criminalization of abortion, the other half will be to go after all forms of contraception that don't involve just telling people to stop fucking.

Pro-abortion? Abortion is a surgical procedure. It should be avoided if possible. Certainly preventing the pregnancy in the first place is safer. plan B contraception and RU-486 are less invasive. "Choice", to me, is a catch-all term that means even if people disagree about the morality of certain reproductive options for themselves, the decision should be left up to the person whose reproductive system it is, and not left in the hands of big-hair televangelists and moralizing, self-righteous poltiticians.

[Solly Mack]

143. Uncompromisingly pro-choice/pro-abortion..whatever

anyone wants to call me...

I don't give a fuck if it's rare..as long as it remains safe and legal...

[Name removed]

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