A bold proposal. Free Republic and DU uniting on an issue?

[QuidditchFan]

Please don't flame me. If you are of the ilk that has a knee-jerk reaction against any cooperation with those of a different political persuasion, simply don't read on.

If you are still reading, then stop reading if "voting for cloture" means that a yeah/neah vote has been cast on a bill. I am not a procedure wonk, so I don't really know what "voting for cloture" means.

If you are STILL reading, then you either have no idea what "voting for cloture" means or you know that "voting for cloture" simply means that debate on the bill has ended.

Assumptions: It seems that many over at Free Republic are as disgusted by the bankruptcy bill as we are. It doesn't seem to me that anyone's idealogical bent would make them more or less likely to support the complete sell-out of our company to lemming corporations like MBNA and other poacher corporations.

Proposal: So, if you believe that this bankruptcy bill would go down quickly in flames by an overwhelming margin if put to a popular vote as I do, then maybe it is time to really stress test the blogosphere and see how far it can go when disparate blog factions unite in common cause. Do you think that those at Free Republic would join us in this effort?

P.S.: After having united, we could return to our usual disdain of neo-conservative principles, but I imagine that for the common good, this could be suspended for a couple of weeks to beat down one truly immoral piece of legislation.

[Arkana]

1. I honestly don't think this would work--there are people here, like me

who can't stand the thought of working with the Freepers on ANYTHING, and I'm pretty sure 99.9% of Freepers would rather poke their eyes out with forks than work with us.

[Stand and Fight]

5. Sheesh...

Nothing like an open mind... :eyes:

[Arkana]

10. This has nothing to do with an open mind--I just don't want to work

with the Freepazoids. They'd backstab us as soon as they could.

[Stand and Fight]

18. Sure they would...

However, I have a hard time believing that they could back stab us on this issue -- especially since we know that we're somewhat more reasonable and smarter. :evilgrin:

[physioex]

7. And what pisses me off even more than the bankruptcy bill....

Is their support for Shrub and this occupation......... In the words of their pResident, "You either with us or against us".

[genius]

34. The freepers are right wing extremists who beat up children

Seriously, watch them infiltrate a Democratic rally and then start beating up Democratic children who attend. I've seen it.

[Flying Coyote]

65. Well then,

There goes your chance to show that you're any better than they are.

This endless game, played equally by "both" sides, wherein we pretend that the other side's sincere beliefs make them "evil" and irrational, is a win only for the oligarchy, because many people who believe in freedome but see different paths to it are spending all their energy fighting each other.

[Maddy McCall]

2. Ummm, it ain't about "knee jerk," it's about history.

And in the past, Admin has frowned on "proposals like yours.

Sure, conservatives and liberals can unite on some issues; however freepers and DUers never will.

[Stand and Fight]

6. Well, you know what?

It would not hurt to try. We stand to lose more by not trying this and any other means that are available to us.

[Maddy McCall]

9. The day that DU unites with Free Republic on ANY issue...

is the day I walk away from DU and never look back. And I am sure many will walk with me.

[Bouncy Ball]

14. DU as a WEBSITE, well me, too.

But individual DUers working on their own, fine. Whatever. Have at it. I will sit back and be curious to see the results.

But don't worry, as a website I think all three admins would have to lose their ever-lovin' minds to coordinate with FR on anything.

[Stand and Fight]

17. Even on an issue as important as this?

Trust me, I hate the Free Republic as much as anyone here, because of their wholesale lies, trumpeting of the Republican Neo-Conservative agenda, bigotry and hypocrisy; however, I do think this is one issue where we need all the fire power we can get in the case of a Republican dominated Senate and House. They are far more likely to be able to convince old pricks like Orin Hatch to change their minds than we would be able to... I'm just saying that this is one issue that I don't think it would kill us to try to unite on. but I do completely understand your deep disdain for the FReepers.

[Lone Pawn]

50. What if, by chance, we both had the same opinion on something?

You know, it isn't like they're by act of God always wrong, and we're by act of God always right. We're almost always right. They're almost always wrong. But on the rare occasions that they're right, why not put aside the hate and work with them?

[Flying Coyote]

66. Partisanship is no substitute for thought

So what if the freepers started up a collection to help the victims of domestic violence and we helped, would you "leave"?

Yes, I know they'd mostly just blame the victims, but hypothetically.

My point being that this mindless, knee-jerk partisanship serves THOSE IN POWER. Right now, that means the Bushies.

[JI7]

15. and because the Freepers would still vote for those who voted for the bill

because they are Republicans. and they would vote against those who voted against the bill because they are Democrats.

[Fridays Child]

3. There is other common ground, as well. And I suspect that...

...as fr**pers gradually realize how killing all government protections will affect them, there will be many more areas of agreement.

[Stand and Fight]

4. Though put off by your initial tone...

I actually find the idea very interesting. However, I would send you on a mission into the enemy camp. I don't suppose you could post some snippets of what they, the people at Free Republic are saying about the issue and perhaps provide a link? I cannot stomach going on the site, but I'd appreciate reconnaissance on your part. Armed with that information, I think you would be better able to convince others and myself that the FReepers actually are as inflamed by this bankruptcy legislation circus as we are here at Democratic Underground. Do you think you could do that, Quid?

LOL

Quid Pro Quo...

[QuidditchFan]

13. I would be happy to later today...

But work calls.

Just wanted to see what kind of reaction this would get at DU, but I really at this point think that rational Free Republic-goers and rational Democratic Undergrounders could unite.

I will detail my reconnaisance later, but I think I saw at DailyKos some snippets from Free Republic that back up my hypothesis.

[tom_paine]

8. Sorry, this Jew refuses to work with Nazis, even Kinder and Gentler ones

[Just Me]

11. I believe we can successfully oppose the BR bill, independently.

Hard as I try to imagine the two working together,...there are simply those on each side that will not allow it to happen.

However, this does not mean that each can't oppose the bill. They can still do so independently.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. I don't know.

Very mixed feelings, though I agree with Stand and Fight on one thing: I think maybe you should go over to freeperville and propose the same thing. See what kind of reaction you get.

I'm not so sure they are really as disgusted by the bankruptcy bill as we are. Though I have to admit to not reading that website.

Show me they are as digusted as we are and we'll go from there, because if they truly aren't, this is a dead issue.

[Stand and Fight]

16. Thank you Bouncy.

You summed up my feelings exactly. I detest the Free Republic for all of their hypocrisy, but as a student of history I cannot list the sheer number of times sworn enemies have united in a common cause. Though they may later return to their war and coldness toward one another great things have been accomplished by bold proposals. However, I must say I am extremely skeptical but willing to at least try to see if they actually have a conscience and sensibility on an issue like this. I doubt it, but this is one instance in which I would rejoice at being wrong.

[Bouncy Ball]

37. I would, as well.

[Tempest]

22. Few there are against the bill

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1358749/posts?q=1&&page=1


Read past the first few posts, most support the bill.

[Ian David]

30. It would be interesting (but unlikely) to see a joint Freeper-DU petition

Stranger things have happened.

If someone else wants to arrange something, I say more power to them.

I just don't want to get my hands dirty dealing with them.

However, there are some things that many of them would agree with us on.

For example, there are all the freepers who were purged during the immigration debate.

Think about how people sit up and take notice when The ACLU takes the side of Pat Robertson.

If someone else wants to set-up a sort of Freeper-Dem Taskforce somewhere else you have my encouragement but not my cooperation. I wouldn't participate in debating or drafting or outreach or research or communicating with them.

I'll sign a petition that has broad freeper-dem support, but that's all. Otherwise, if anyone wants to do this, don't expect my help.

[Beacho]

19. Let Mohhamed come to the mountain

Instead of the other way around


Let THEM realise that they have been betrayed by their boy king and make overture to US.

Until then, FEH!

[gWbush is Mabus]

20. u r wrong - REPUBLICANS LOVE THE BANKRUPTCY BILL

that is what the GOP media has been spoon-feeding them

[Lone Pawn]

48. Do you have proof of that statement?

I've seen freepers pissed off at the bankruptcy bill. The media's been rather silent on this one.

[Califooyah Operative]

62. the thing is

Republicans used conservatives to get into power, conservatives used the republican party to assert influence. Many conservatives have lost faith in this administration, and neocons, they've done a completely 180 on their supposed values and agenda. The big business aspect of the republican party no doubt loves the bankruptcy bill/

[OrlandoGator]

21. How about DU and FR opposing the bill independently?

I think that speaks a lot louder.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

27. Louder than two forces on complete opposite sides of the........

political spectrum coming together to try to defeat a bill that adversely affects all Americans?

I don't see it.

Whether it would work or not at this point is unimportant, but the opposition to the very idea of working together present in this thread is quite disheartening.

Is there absolutely no way to be Americans united on any issue, even one that holds this much importance? Must we always have the same negative knee-jerk reaction to anything that would bring us together?

[OrlandoGator]

28. Have at it...

But I won't put my name on any collaborative effort with FR. Sorry.

[Tempest]

23. Most freepers support the bill

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1358749/posts?q=1&&page=1

Read past the first few posts.

[QuidditchFan]

29. I will do a more in-detail tallying later, but it looks...

Like they don't like it. I would say that it is at least 50-50 and maybe even 60-40 against this bill...I'm telling you, I think we may have something here. As I mentioned earlier, I will be more thorough when I am not working. :)

[Tempest]

35. Feel free to do what you want

But don't expect much support here.

As soon as you turn your back on them, it'll take a surgeon to remove the knife.

And I for one don't want to go through the operation. I doubt many here want to either.

[MADem]

44. Who counted those votes--DIEBOLD????

Uh, if they are 50-50, or even 60-40, we have nothing in common with them. Who here SUPPORTS this bill??

We don't have much debate about it, because we know what it means to working Americans...the only ones opposing it over there are the ones who are living the big GOP lie, running on credit, and praying like hell that their allegiance to the boyking will put them on the gravy train before the bottom drops out.

[zulchzulu]

24. Freepers are Chimpy Zombies...they like whatever Chimpy likes...

...no matter what.

What Chimpy likes, they like. Assume that they would be for the Bankruptcy Bill because...well...let's pull out some Reaganisms, shall we...it's them dang welfare queens that are gwoin' bankrupt...

...you know the drill. You may as well talk to a goddamn wall when you're trying to reason with a Freeper.

[AntiCoup2K4]

32. And RimJob will probably purge the ones who oppose the bill

Didn't he do that the last time a significant number of Freeps opposed something the Fraudministration did?

[Bouncy Ball]

38. The immigration stuff, yes, you are correct.

[pauliedangerously]

25. DUPE.

[pauliedangerously]

26. Interesting thought...

..and I think about such things often, but it probably won't work because people are too firmly entrenched in their respective ideologies. The divisions in this country are a result of decades of research and the even split we have in this country is calculated and deliberate.

I don't think the bankruptcy issue is going to unite the two extremes. Even if it did, those in power would find a way to modify the marketing of this new bill and realign everyone where "they belong."

The average American mind isn't sophisticated enough to combat the people in power. It's no fault of the individual; education in this country is pretty pathetic--the fact that people debate teaching evolution and "creation science" is a pretty good indicator of that.

You aren't going to unite people when a significant portion of them are still trying to figure out what's real and what isn't, and there is a significant number of people like that on both ends of the political spectrum...waiting for a miracle or a "sky-hook." or Godot.

All of this prosperity we enjoyed in this country after WWII is a result of a huge surplus of wealth due to the condition of the world. Our position has been squandered over the last twenty-plus years by Democrat and Republican leaders alike. If this country ever enjoys the prosperity it did in the fifties, I doubt it will be in anyone's lifetime today.

[MissMarple]

31. More likely, separate but parallel efforts.

Like it or not their prosperity and ours are permanently linked. It's a communal, wider community working for common goals sort of thing. Dare I say "for the common good".

:evilgrin:

[Emboldened Chimp]

33. Politics makes strange bed fellows

The old adage will always ring true. I've often thought of trying to bridge the gap on certain issues both sides certainly agree on--this one being one of them--but how to go about doing it? I would think that a combined effort by both to pressure Congress would ring alarm bells on both sides. A united front against this bill will let memebers on both sides of the aisle know that we--no matter who we vote for--do not want this bill. For this issue--and this one alone--we should at least make an effort to combine forces, because we are all in the same boat whether we admit it or not, and if we don't realize that Congress votes against the interests of regular Americans of all political stripes to benefit their corporate donors, we are in for a world of hurt. Pettiness needs to be cast aside for this issue, because we all will be hurt in the end.

[katinmn]

36. I think its an interesting idea

After all, at least half of the bankruptcies must be by Republicans.

And the red states are the ones that are going to suffer the most if this reform is passed. But most don't know it yet.

I think in reality, though, people will contact their legislators on their own or through activist groups that they agree with.

[Bouncy Ball]

39. You are correct when you posit that red states will suffer the most.

They most assuredly will.

[katinmn]

57. Hey, maybe we'll win the House back in 06

maybe they'll vote with their empty pocketbooks.

[Alizaryn]

40. I think we have more in common then anyone would admit.

If both sides were able to get around the "hate talk". egos and preconceived idea of winning is everything we would stand a prayer. Its a great idea, just not sure how we would go about it.

[DearAbby]

41. These people repeat what they have been spoonfed...they have overdosed

on the koolaid to swallow this swill, that is against their own better interests. If they can get a campaign in writing their representives and senators, Demanding they vote down this bill, we do the same. Same bottom line. Majority of the people are against this legislation. What purpose is there to join?

[Alizaryn]

42. You have a point.

[Lone Pawn]

49. We do quite a bit of parroting too.

I can't count the number of times I've seen the word 'neocon' blatantly misused, or the number of people willing to harp on the same tired two-year-old talking points.

[MADem]

43. Why would one feel the necessity to unite over this issue???

If they don't like the bill, they can get off their hineys and call their reps, fire off faxes and emails, and do the usual "expression of disdain" efforts that give voice to their gripes. And Democrats and progressives can do the same. The result will be the same, as well--both the Democrats and the GOP reps will realize that PEOPLE, regardless of party, are unhappy about this asinine bill.

I just don't see any REASON to coordinate anything. Aside from the fact that they are rather childish and rude, I find their philosophy of life lacking in basic, essential humanity. You can probably find a single issue that you could agree with Hitler on (he was said to like dogs, for example), that doesn't mean that one should ally oneself with him or associate oneself with him.

We don't need that outfit to speak up with us, or for us--they can do it themselves, and we can do our own complaining as well.

I think your suggestion is very ill advised.

[DearAbby]

45. Individual DUers could go to them and if not tombstoned...could help

organize them. I too see them as childish parrots, they repeat what they are spoonfed. Some are waking from the trance. I just dont see the possiblity or the need of joining both sites in this issue.

[hector459]

46. Here's the difference: The Freeps are getting screwed by the Bush admin

and didn't realize it until some of these bills started coming up in Congress. We always knew what this administration was about.

[kodi]

47. What? Mars attacks?

[Babel_17]

51. An alternative proposal

Challenge them to do better against the bill than is being done here at the DU.

Word it as a friendly challenge.

Possible criteria to use. Numbers of threads and posts. Letters and e-mails sent off. Petitions signed. Corporate media types contacted from whom an actual reply was gained. Cooperation with bloggers.

Unique info gained on who's being bribed. Etc.

Start a dedicated thread for it and ask everyone to keep anti-freeper venom out of it. Ask a mod to keep an eye on the thread and, here's the tricky part, make contact with people who are posters at Freeperville so they can post word about the thread challenging them.

Try to encourage a corresponding thread at their site.


Good luck. :)


P.S. If by some happy miracle you get it to work that fact alone might garner some free press regarding this issue. It would make for an easy story to write and would also allow those in the media who tremble at crossing Bushco to take a more oblique approach to covering the story.

[wildflower]

52. I've considered this myself...

Especially as I often make a distinction between true conservatives and neoconservatives.

I've said a few times here that it would be nice if we could get back to a government whose right wing is made up of true conservatives and moderates, and separate from the radical right. If we could only get back to a democracy and discussion of issues and policies, and away from worries about political tricks, attacks on personal character, unfair elections, and so on...

It's hard to understand that so many people voted the way they did this past election. But if I had the option, I'd rather save our country and its citizens than hold a grudge.

-wildflower

[blondeatlast]

53. If they oppose it and we oppose it, there's no need to unite.

That shows that it's universally bad policy, and we can work happily as separate entities to get it rejected.

[blindpig]

54. the only thing we have in common with them

is the perception that we are being fucked. Which is too true. After that it all falls apart. Their mindset is reinforced by decades of ever more sophisticated propaganda. Hard to accept that Everything You Know Is Wrong.

[mikelewis]

55. Can we send an ambassidoor?

I'd spell it correctly but then they wouldn't understand it. Yes, a marvelous idea but one doomed to utter failure. The Freepers are closed-minded and ignorant. Many of them are smart and capable but ultimately too ignorant to ally with. We should be forging stronger bonds to the Libertarians and Greens not wasting time on these pathetic hillbillies. But go ahead and try to reach out, just don't get upset when those snakes bite your hand.

[IndianaGreen]

56. Freepers are nothing but Nazis

We have nothing in common!

[Jesus Saves]

58. Freepers will cry and wail about the bill, but they'll fall back into line

They're used and abused, and they like it that way.

[bush_is_wacko]

59. Love the scrreen name AND

I think that is a brilliant idea! There are several issues FR and DU could unite on. The other one is SS reform. I don't think they are all that pleased by the presidents proposal. I'm not sure about the budget thing but maybe there is common ground there too. I haven't read through all these responses but please let me know if you plan on getting together with them on this issue. When BOTH sides are united in the cause the message is loud and clear. Maybe some of these right wing nut politicians will get a clue and learn to back off!

[MoonRiver]

60. If it could happen I'd be all for it.

We're all Americans, and the bottom line is essentially the same regardless of one's political bent. Freepers will suffer equally with DUers from this hideous regime.

[DebJ]

61. I am in!!! I have been saying repeatedly, based on my door to

door and telephone experience last year, that even Republicans don't buy the Bush agenda!

[Spinoza]

63. Even Hitler and Stalin

were formal allies for nearly 2 years.

[Spinoza]

64. Just thinking but,

can DU (much less the freeps) speak as a single entity on a political subject. Who speaks for DU? Will a vote be taken among DU posters? I haven't been here that long . Has DU ever before issued a "single voice" statement? Or are you asking individual members of DU and Freep to individually petion the bankruptcy bill?

[Fovea]

67. I think for important issues

cooperation, if strictly constrained to consensus issues would
be a step back from the brink of civil war.

Further, this would be what could go right for what the matter is with Kansas. Finally the ideological starve the beast free marketers would have to face the values wing of their own party. The wake up call would be particularly effective if it activated the Republican fear of loss of unity. The neocons bluster, threaten, and bully their own, in ways that are even more glaringly brutal and far more disjunct than our own center/left dialogue. They would not abandon party unity for the sake of the financials, precisely because it is so artificial, indeed parasitic.

If those disaffected freeps want to bray with the donkeys, I will not stop them, indeed, I will bring an extra signboard for them.

[applegrove]

68. You can take care of your own problems. We will take care of ours.

You at Free Republic will have to spend hours trying to figure out how you voted for such an idiot. We didnt' vote for him. I just do not have time to hold your hand. And I have read what you have said on many issues. And you are liars, mis-informed & delusional. Your one god is the USA and that is not a recognized religion anywhere.

Don't waste my time with your poison.

[applegrove]

69. You mean no good. You attack us all the time. You lie. Go away.

[SoCalifer]

70. STARTREK NEXT GENERATION

This thread brings up an interesting thought in my mind. It curiously brings out a memory in me from watching StarTrek Next Generation.

If you are a Trek fan you might remember the episode where the Enterprise runs into a crashed Borg ship which had three Borg on board, of which only one was still alive.

The Enterprise crew bring this sworn enemy back with them on board the Enterprise and restore his health. They discuss plans on how they can use him to destroy all the rest of the Borg by inflecting him with a virus and allowing him to inflect all the rest of the Borg. But then they discover that by having brought this Borg on board the Enterprise, this Borg had changed because of his exposure to the Enterprise crew, and that this change could/would have a profound effect on the thinking of all the rest of the Borg, once they allowed this Borg to return to his kind.

Anyway, if you haven't got my point yet, it is this: Yes we all here know that our line of thinking is vastly more correct than the short sighted freepers. But this can be an opportunity to effect some change in the minds of freepers. Even if its just a small change, it could be a step in the right direction in them realizing the error of their thinking and how it affects them.

And yes, the thought of doing anything with a freeper doesn't appeal to me either. But I would like to think that we are the more mature crowd, and the crowd smart enough to realize that this could provide an opportunity to plant a seed into the minds of freepers that just may make some of them see the light that Republicans are NOT on your side if you work for a living.

And the worst that could happen? Is simply nothing... No harm, no foul

[delilah]

71. I'm new here and all

so I know nothing of the apparent board war that seems to be underlying this issue. However, despite what has happened in the past, we must take an ACTIVE role in preventing this bill from passing. I'd date Rush Limbaugh himself if I thought it would help. I'd spend the rest of my life in a shower with a wire bush and a can of ajax, but I'd do it.

I'm not a senator, I cannot vote, directly, on this shitpile. But I'm willing to do anything within the means of the law to stop this bill. Maybe these FReeper people are satan's own kin and the worst sort of racist, elitist, unreasonable and hateful voters to ever cast a ballot. But they are voters, they are citizens, no matter how backwards their thinking might be.

If Ralph Nader can do a Donahue segment sitting next to Pat Buchannan to oppose NAFTA, then I can post with and cooperate with a buncha neo-cons to disarm the banks lastest attempt to rape the public.

I'll hold all your hands if it helps. We can have little side pow-wows about how much neocons suck the big one. Hell, I'll bring the brownies. Lets take this legislation down. Ask not what your party can do for you, ask what you can do for your party.

Oh, and by the way...I used to BE a neo-con. I was right there beside them tossing monopoly money in Alan Cranston's face on CNN. Theres hope that something you might say today will take seed and bloom years later. Jes sayin.