The hardline according to LoZoccolo: the party will have to move right.

[LoZoccolo]

Or, people further to the left will just have to get more solid support for what they want from voters.

How many people complaining about the former are doing the latter?

[Somawas]

1. Take a look at the framing site on the front page

because if you take polls, people tend to agree with progressive positions. Framing is the name of the game.

[BBradley]

2. The same could be said when you reverse the roles.

The move to the right crowd has one "success" in the last 10 years. That might be a pretty good record if centrism had anything to do with it. The only reason Clinton won was because of a split conservative vote.

The move to the center crowd had the last 3 at bats. Let's see... there were 2 strike-outs, and one lucky drive that the other team didn't notice in time because they were too busy arguing amongst themselves. To take the analogy further, if we continue on the path we've been going we might as well start printing up new jerseys now, cause next season we may as well join the other team.

[LoZoccolo]

3. Under your scenario, the Republicans win.

Why even complain, then, if that's what you really want? Why waste our time?

[ulysses]

4. plenty of us are trying

in our ways. But please, let the party keep moving to the right and see how long the support of those damnable progressive activists lasts.

[LoZoccolo]

6. Like the last one, that's not a solution.

No one has a right to call themselves progressive, without a plan to make progress.

I see drama-queen tactics, but no solutions.

[ulysses]

10. the solutions are in the issues.

Unfortunately, we're in a position where we have to defend progressive gains against those in our own party instead of being able to put forward plans for progress against the other party.

[bpilgrim]

5. DEAN

proves that conventional 'wisdom' WRONG.

Dem's just need to stand up and fight back.

NEWSFLASH: Dem's raised more cash then the reTHUGs last election cycle... lots of $10s and $20s made that happen.

there is that little problem with BBV though =(

peace

[LoZoccolo]

7. Dean lost the primary.

It's one thing to take a stand, another to have it affect anyone.

[bpilgrim]

9. DEAN took over the DNC via grass roots support

and don't over look the point about the CASH... the life blood of any party.

also it answered your question (whats the former doing about it) didn't it? which kinda blew your 'law' out the water, no?

populism is where it's at... the reTHUGs get it and are racking up success after success why wouldn't it work for us?

and don't forget BBV.

peace

[LoZoccolo]

13. OK, that's how to take over the Democratic Party.

It's an entirely different problem to win elections.

Dean had a very good lead for a while in the primaries, until the January polls showed that Kerry had a better chance against Bush*.

I like Dean, don't get me wrong. I was a Dean supporter during the primaries. I just don't see the good in moving the party to the left if you're not going to bring more people in that direction as well. If simply putting further left people in charge of the party or nominating them would give us any progress, then Dennis Kucinich would have swept the primaries and would have been polling better against Bush* in the polls before the primaries. And most of the issues that Nader was really vocal about, most people don't really understand.

[bpilgrim]

16. the party represents the people

and survey after survey shows the people support progressive choices but it's an uphill battle and won't be won over night with M$MW, the DLC and BBV in the way.

we need the LANGUAGE to move people and DEAN is the one to move the party in that direction... right now their is a war goin on between the establishment and the grassroots and my money is on the grassroots.

there is NOTHING wrong with saying you are pro LIFE while maintaining a womans RIGHT to have control over HER OWN BODY or saying you support CHRISTIANS while upholding EVERYONES civil liberties and moving on to the REAL battle the fight for the middle class which means POPULISM.

our party is getting it's ass kicked as reTHUG lite since we no longer have a slick Willie spinning the BS we need someone with real traditional values FIGHTING for weTHEpeople.

peace

[imenja]

8. let's get over labels of left and right

and figure out what principles and goals are most important to us as Democrats. Left and Right mean different things to different people. The labels are ultimately meaningless. They are relics of a Cold War paradigm that no longer accurately describes American politics. It's Bush's big government, expansion of federal powers, imperial presidency, and spending like a drunken sailor truly conservative or right? It fits with no idea of conservatism that I've seen in my lifetime. Let's focus on principles and issues and forget the labels.

[bpilgrim]

11. weTHEpeople

same as it ever was.

bring back POPULISM (worked for clinton) and support for the common man/woman.

peace

[bpilgrim]

12. LoZoccolo channeling Al From

Al From says Dems must "reject Michael Moore and the MoveOn crowd"

discuss

peace

[LoZoccolo]

14. Not at all.

Now show me where Michael Moore and MoveOn.org have had an impact on drawing voters further left, and I'd actually say someone's doing something.

But it seems like people want someone to speak for them (easy), but don't want to create more people that think like them (more difficult).

I think part of it here just comes with the territory of being a collection of people who like to sit in front of a computer.

[bpilgrim]

17. the first documentary that EVER earned $200 million and you don't see

the VALUE in that :crazy:



FYI: sitting in front of a computer ALL DAY and NIGHT is how i make my living, pal

peace

[LoZoccolo]

20. I didn't say it didn't have value.

I'm just saying that if you want the party to be the party of Michael Moore and MoveOn.org, you'll have to show that. And I've heard a lot of good come from the documentary. But I just think if anyone wants the party to move left, they'll have to make more people that respond to a left-wing message enough to vote for it.

[bpilgrim]

21. did you see the lines of voters last election? hello...

what fantasy world are you living in?

do you actually buy the BS the M$MW are shill'n :crazy:

good night

peace

[Orangepeel]

15. it's not about right or left. it is about weak and strong.

There are some issues that are wedge issues, but by and large Americans don't know about or care about issues. Poll after poll shows that Americans have positions that are more in line with the Democratic party than the Republican party when no party names are attached to them (even on civil unions and abortion).

The problem is, they don't know what either party stands for. Most bush voters, when asked about his position on almost everything, are wrong. They are also wrong when asked about the Democratic position on issues.

Most people, particularly the infamous "swing voter" don't vote on issues. They vote for the person they trust and that they like. That's not a right or left issue. That's a matter of nominating a charismatic person, doing a better job of communicating our message and finding a way to combat the republican smear machine.

[LoZoccolo]

18. I think you're mostly right, but...

...I think we also need to find out why Dean, who was strong and outspoken and who I did admire, didn't do as well as Bush*, who I actually don't think comes off as being more decisive and strong as Dean. I'm still trying to get my head around this. I think it's an issue that would be instructive to figure out, but it's really hard to have a serious discussion about that without it leading to accusations and faction-building. It's like people don't believe I can actually think Dean is a pretty good leader (and I'll even give him the credit for making it possible to run against Bush*) while at the same time knowing that something went wrong.

[bpilgrim]

19. M$MW

hello...

NEWSFLASH: Bush got more ELECTRICAL votes than KERRY.

http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

[LoZoccolo]

22. Kick.

:kick: