It's everybodys fault but Dean's.

[Democrats unite]

Dean lost in Iowa Because of the media, Dean lost in Iowa Because of the other candidates dirty tactics, Dean lost in Iowa because of the Republicans, Dean lost in Iowa because my dog wouldn't let me out of the house to get to the cacus.

Dean had nothing to do with Dean losing in Iowa.

Can we please put this into perspective now.

[Jerseycoa]

1. Yep

"Dean had nothing to do with Dean losing in Iowa."

There were two of him.

[meegbear]

2. All I have to say on the matter is

YYYYEEAAAAGGGGHHHH!

[Robin Hood]

61. Bwahahahah!

lol..

[LuminousX]

3. Wow, yet another thread regarding Dean's loss in Iowa

[youngred]

9. well there's not much else to talk about that's solid

because we know before Iowa half the threads in here were about how Dean should just be annointed the nominee now since everyone knew he'd win.

[Nazgul35]

31. and how many Dean supporters

got on those threads and said it was foolish to make such an assumption?

How many Dean supporters responded in how many different threads that we knew getting the nomination was going to be tough....if not impossible?

Perhaps your dilemma comes from the fact that Dean supporters showed their enthusiasm by talking up their candidates, while today's front runner can seem to do nothing but talk about Dean....

DEAN.....DEAN.....DEAN..... still?

When are we going to talk about Edwards, Kerry and Clark, or is that what we are avoiding?

[LuminousX]

40. They don't remember that, they don't even remember Dean saying that

they only remember that one Dean supporter who said "Dean is inevitable!"

That is all they care to remember, I should say.

[youngred]

60. They They They

still blaming everyone but yourselves

[youngred]

62. That's a pretty big load of assumptions you got going there

few of them actually true.

All I heard from the media, and MANY, not ALL Dean supporters was that Dean was the only option, he was the only choice and was going to easily cruise to victory everywhere. There were some that said the nomination would be tough, but they were drowned out in a sea of DEANDEAN DEAN voices.

My dilemma comes from nothing, but Dean's "speech" was I think a very smart and shrewd political move. Instead of a positive buzz and bump and news coverage going to Kerry and Edwards the majority of the press coverage has been Dean's mistake.

As for Dean supporters talking up their candidate, there are some who do that, there is a vocal group however (minority or majority I don't know but they taint the whole campaign) who act in a very negative manner and do little other than talk down other candidates.

I would rather see us talk about all the candidates, but for some reason the Deaniacs, anti-Deanies and Media don't want to. I have nothing to avoid, but your attempts to make a point about us all being afraid of the all-powerful Dean is completely without merit.

[lyonn]

75. Dean supporter

Dean got the sluggish Democrats off square one. After the 2002 elections many Dems were so disappointed in their party. Then Dean spoke out and got lots of attention and excitment. Now that he appears to have disappointed so many with his comments, that the media seems to enjoy flaunting, "We are not safer now that Saddam is captured," "sit down and shut up" to Rep. in audience, and caucus nite demonstration, he appears to have an impossible task of recovering. In Iowa I heard what I took as gaffs from the other candidates but no media histeria. Same with Bush, boy, did the media give him a "pass." Anyway, this a.m. Clark was on C-Span with a group in New hampshire and impressed the heck out of me. Yes, I'm a real Dean fan but one must face reality that the media controls and if we want to put a democrat in office we must keep an open mind. Still, I'd love to see Dean recoup.

[youngred]

77. Live by the media die by the media

Dean got attention from the media
this leads to popularity (name recognition)
this leads to Dean being a good story
this leads to more attention
this leads to reporting EVERYTHING he does, gaffes included

Dean is not out of it yet at all. He can still grab the nomination, and might even still be the front-runner, but he made it harder on himself by getting complacent, cruising, and changing some of his opinions while letting himself get out of control

[bearfartinthewoods]

79. let's look at what he really did.

he started early. that's it...he started early and built up an early lead that lasted right up until the time for the first people to choose.

he spent a lot of money and made other people spend a lot of money.

and here we are, a year later and what has he done...we are right back where we were a year ago except a lot of money that could have been spent against bush is down the hole.

i just had the second indy in two days say 'enough already'. people are backlashing against a two year presidential campaign.

[Bread and Circus]

80. I distinctly remember folks inferring we shouldn't criticize Dean because.

he was likely to be the nominee.

Everything is wide open now.

[youngred]

4. Dean did indeed blow it

he had a friendly media, a divided and weak looking field of opposition, a healthy lead, strong organization, lots of money and he let it go.

His campaign needs to figure out what went wrong, why and change it. ASAP.

Dean blew himself out of Iowa

[CMT]

15. friendly media? my foot

the media has done nothing but beat up on Dean for months. At least Dean didn't make bargains with other campaigns like your candidate did with John Edwards who is the polar opposite on many issues in particularly on the war. And don't expect that DK will inherit much of Dean's anti-war constituency either if and when he withdrawls. Dean's showing was disappointing--third place with 18% of the vote, but it sure as hell was better than DK. Where is he going to win some place? and if he doesn't win someplace when is he going to withdrawl? or is it ok for him to continue till the end getting maybe 1-5% of the vote based on the state while Dean will be told by the media and the pundits to pack it in if he doesn't win NH.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

29. The media propelled Dean into the early lead...

He was polling within single digits of Kucinich before Dean's media exposure onslaught began.

How man NATIONAL magazine covers? etc.

Polls reflect HIGHLY on name recognition. This is acheieved by media exposure.


The media giveth and then the media taketh away?


TWL

[youngred]

63. Wrong

They have given Dean headline, after headline, bio after bio, crowned him king for his organization, money and buzz. They made him what he was, but now that they've turned against him a little (and I'm not sure they have) He is STILL getting all the press. They INTERRUPTED Edwars speech, on a night when he should have been getting a lot of attention, to go to Dean.

as for your attacking BULLSHIT let me say this (how many times do I have to reply to this utter horseshite???): IRAQ IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE IN THIS CAMPAIGN. Dennis Kucinich and John Edwards both have very similar views on education, economic, social, and health policies. FAR FAR MORE LIBERAL than Dean's CONSERVATIVE views on many of the most important issues to real progressives. Iraq is dead and gone. FURTHER, Dean is HARDLY an Anti-war candidate. While Dennis Kucinich was speaking at Anti-War rallies and VOTING AGAINST the war, Dean was supporting Biden-Lugar and saying we should support Bush.

I love how you cannot answer anything at all having to do with the defense of your candidate but instead go on to attack with bullshit, unrelated memes.

I am a Kucinich supporter because I dislike the way the DNC has been moving and want it to come back to the left. I do not see a fiscal, social moderate/conservative from vermont as a progressive at ALL and he is not the left's alternative. I KNOW Kucinich won't win the nomination...however I support him because he is someone I want to vote FOR. I will vote ABB in the General, including for Dean, which is something which cannot be said of *many* Dean supporters.

The ONLY people I've seen complain about the Edwards/Kucinich "deal" have been Dean supporters...you said Dean supporters won't go to DK, well I'll remind you that just because Dean is supposedly anti-war doesn't mean DK supporters owe him their fealty (which is what I think the sour grapes is really about)

Get a life, eh

[boxster]

5. One of the most appropriate comments I saw was ABD, as in...

the loss should be blamed on Anybody But Dean.

[CWebster]

6. Coming from the Clark camp

whose main objective was to always tear down Dean, please excuse me if I take your conclusion with a grain of salt.

[Democrats unite]

7. Not a problem

we all have our opinions. But since monday one only has to read the threads & see where I am comming from. Dean supporters have yet to reconize that Dean lost due a combination of things including himself, hey it happens. Just admit it. When and or if my candidate loses, I will be one of the first to point out why so we as a group can learn by it & not repaet the same mistake again.

[CWebster]

25. Not my experience

I am in contact with many Dean supporters and I know for a fact that they discuss a whole variety of reasons, including faulting the campaign and Dean as well in their assessment.

[Democrats unite]

36. Can't prove that here in the threads...

But if it happening outside of here fine.

[Renew Deal]

8. I understand...

but do you agree?

[Ninga]

14. Of course Dean and Team Dean blew it...

and they had help from plenty of outsiders to boot. And they know it better than any of us, sitting on our behinds second guessing know it alls.

It is a test of his self esteem, leadership, organization, and political saavy and it will play out in the next month.

If Dean comes in second or even third he WILL go on.

Lessons had are lesson learned. Time will tell.

I just got to love the guy.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bicentennial_baby]

16. where?

Messianic? Are we engaging in a bit of hyperbole this morning?

[youngred]

11. the only objective of the Clark campaign is to tear down Dean?

that's a stretch

[CWebster]

28. No its not

obviously you haven't been around much.

[youngred]

64. I've been around plenty thank you

I was questioning what I thought was a pretty stupid assumption on your part.

Instead of explaining yourself or refuting what I said you personally attack me. An excellent manner of debate. Cheers to you!

[jpgray]

12. Yes, this "do-no-wrong" mindset is pretty silly (nt)

[indigo32]

13. I'm sick of reading about this

and ya know what... believe whatever you want.

[Ninga]

17. Please don't be sick!!!!!!!!!

All the fish will get their turn in the barrel.........you can be sure of it. Dean has really, really, had a lot of petty stuff thrown his way................

Speaking of which. Which one of the brain trust out there can explain to me why Kunicich and Edwards, teaming up in Iown, was ok?

Let's see, Edwards supporing the IWR and the Patriot Act and Dennis???

But no, that's not ganging up on Howard is it???

[youngred]

18. Lord, OK LAST TIME

you can check the archives for thread after thread after thread of Dean supporters screaming DENNIS BETRAYED YOU, DENNIS IS A SELL-OUT, etc.

Iraq is not the only issue in this election. Edwards and Kucinich are friends. Edwards and Kucinich have more in common in terms of economic, social, health, and education policy than Kucinich or Edwards does with the moderate-to-conservative Dr. Dean.

[CWebster]

32. Really, I missed that

and I would really like to see it, because I respected your candidate.

What a joke. Talk about not being able to face up to things and projecting displaced anger. Yesiree, this here is my friend and I want all you good boys and girls to get behind my friend and ignore your principles on stuff like war and the patriot act and other unimportant things...

[youngred]

66. Check the archives for the morning

and other unimportant things like healthcare policy, tax policy, business support, welfare, education policy, those issues where Dean is a CONSERVATIVE and Edwards is a LIBERAL you mean? Iraq is not the only issue and your characterization is bullshit. Read the candidates actual positions instead of buying the hype

[Ramsey]

67. As opposed to...

The paucity of threads on Dean's Iowa speech??

Actually I only recall a handful of threads on the Edwards-Kucinich thing. I'll bet you a large amount of money that there are exponentially more threads on Dean's Iowa speech, the vast majority of which are negative and started by the supporters of other candidates.

And as far as Iraq not being the only issue, that is certainly true, but it is also true that Kucinich has made it a centerpiece of his campaign. It is certainly fair that he at least explain how he reconciles that with Edwards' position.

[TLM]

71. Kucinich is a sell out... just another DC insider brokering power

to keep it in the hands of the insiders and not the people.

Kucinich for all his talk about being different is just another politics as usual DC insider.

[youngred]

73. Keep repeating the lie

and maybe it might someday be true.

I'm sick of refuting this bullshit, anyone who isn't a sour grapes dean supporter will see there is nothing wrong with this, and that Edwards is a logical counter to DK, not the Conservative Dean.

[mvd]

76. You should leave that up to the Kucinich supporters

And it seems that most, including me, don't find the Edwards deal to be a bad thing. Being a champion for the little guy is just as important for Dennis.

As for Dean, I'm not sure I'd blame others for Iowa, but the aftermath from the speech is too much IMO. So I think others might have a hand if he loses New Hampshire.

[Cuban_Liberal]

19. Must still have some unused salt.

Seems not ALL of it has yet been rubbed into the Dean supporters' wounds. "Thank you, sir. May I have another?". :wtf:

[Democrats unite]

20. When the need arises...

of course!

[Cuban_Liberal]

21. I didn't see a 'need'.

I do, however, see deliberate provocation on a subject that's been beaten to death 10000 times.

[Sly Kal]

23. th original post is nothing but flame bait

Of course some flamebait is more equal than other.

[Democrats unite]

26. The whole point of this thread is...

If Dean Supporters would just admit that Dean's 3rd place showing had something to do with his campaign and eat a little humle pie, we wouldn't be going through. Everybody is being blamed but the candidate. And thats a crock of...

And one of their biggest targets about this has been Edwards, but I am sure you already knew that.

[Cuban_Liberal]

27. Why is it neccessary that they 'confess'?

Frankly, I wouldn't demand public 'pennance' from people whose vote may need down the road, but then again, I've never been a control freak.

[Democrats unite]

30. it's good for the soul...

and more people would be less apt to be cynical & more empathetic.

It's worked wonders in the past.

[Cuban_Liberal]

33. No, they wouldn't.

The same group of people who post this sort of crap would simply use the opportunity to say, "See, I told you so!".

Pretty lame, IMO.

[Democrats unite]

35. I see you like to judge people without facts.

eom.

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. No, I just don't like bullies. n/t

[Democrats unite]

38. Neither do we!

Hence this thread.

[Cuban_Liberal]

39. Simple shit stirring.

Hence this thread.

[Democrats unite]

41. Well I see it's time to get back on topic...

Show me the flasehood in the original post. I won't expect a reply because I know you can't.

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. My o[inion on the thread is my opinion on the thread.

The sole purpose of the thread was to rub salt into Dean supporters' wounds.

[Democrats unite]

44. Hence I am correct there is no falsehood...

Some people just don't like the truth.

[Cuban_Liberal]

45. Some people just can't resist rubbing it in.

Simple shit-stirring post, as I've stated. It has absolutely no utility, other than that.

[Democrats unite]

46. So it is safe to asume you are against us posting the thruth?

Also I hope to see in the near future your unwavering support for your candidate that that you show in Dean. That would be grat!

[Cuban_Liberal]

47. I call 'em like I see 'em.

The post was rubbing salt into Dean supporters' wounds, pure and simple. Any 3rd-grader could see that.

[Democrats unite]

49. The truth shall set you free...

Now theres a great quote!

[Cuban_Liberal]

50. Too bad it's lost in a crap thread, huh?

eom

[Democrats unite]

51. Some people are trying to lose it...

But the truth is there and can't be covered up.

[Cuban_Liberal]

52. Truth, or salt?

Fortunately, some of us can see the difference.

[Democrats unite]

53. I will repeat myself again

what you are saing is we are not to post the truth if it hurts someone's feeling?

[indigo32]

54. Naw show your true colors all you want.

but don't act like you are doing anybody any favors... including your self.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indigo32]

58. Ummm

you lost me there, what are you talking about?

[TLM]

74. I will not support Clark....

He will not get my vote.


Now tell me... will you blame my choice on Clark?

[indigo32]

48. What Truth

and to what purpose????????

[TLM]

72. What do you expect from Clark fans?

After all they support a guy who has no problem murdering civilains, supporting the school of the americas, and bombing hospitals. A guy who was supporting republicans a few years ago and said he would have been a republican if Rove returned his calls.


What makes you think they'd have any problem joining with republicans to Gore Dean?

[GalleryGod]

22. Hubris,Hubris,HU-BRIS.

:nopity:

BTW..get thee to a decent tailor...and soon!

[Monument]

24. AMEN!!!!

[1floridademocrat]

34. Yet another

hypocritical post by someone who doesn't want Democrats united.

[jadesfire]

43. Iowans really don't care what the news says & a clarification on dirty tri

Re: "...Dean lost in Iowa Because of the other candidates dirty tactics..."

Sadly it was consistently the Dean people who were being called on for spreading false info. ie. Kerry voted against flood relief (whoops- that was Bob Kerrey, not John Kerry...). or maybe that he wanted to close the Department of Agriculture (riiiiight....that was blatently false)

Iowa could have gone a hundred different directions. The one thing that cannot be denied is that Iowans spent a LOT of time with the candidates one on one and made their decision based on what they saw and heard at the hundreds of events that happened in Iowa in the weeks leading up to the caucus'.

[copithorne]

55. I don't like this thread either

I don't know whether it is better to register my objection or to let it die.

As I tried to spell out in another post, we need to make a distinction between Dean's character and his candidacy.

This post doesn't make that distinction. It has a tone which suggests that Dean lost Iowa because he is a bad person. I don't see that. I think Howard Dean is an honorable person. I like the guy. I think he speaks the truth.

We can discuss problems Howard Dean might have with his candidacy without attacking him as a person.

[Cuban_Liberal]

56. Thank you!

That's exactly my point, too. :)

[Ramsey]

65. That's very nice

I will make a mental note that there is at least one Clark supporter on DU trying to be fair to Dean and his supporters.

[Padraig18]

69. Thank you!

I will definitely say you're one of the good guys. I stayed out of this thread for my own good, but the original post has all the subtlety of a pit bull with an abcessed tooth. :P

[TexasSissy]

78. I don't like attacking, either....BUT...

I disagree that there is no issue with Dean's character. I have caught him in more than two "untruths."

Remember right before the IA caucus when he was asked whether it was wise to go to Plains, GA to attend church with Carter? Dean responded, and I'm paraphrasing, that one just doesn't turn down an invitation to attend church with a former President. Then Carter was asked about it and said, and I'm paraphrasing, I didn't invite Dean to go to church with me. He called me, and I was happy to have him." I think that did Dean some major damage, although the media seems to be focusing solely on the anger angle.

I also caught him saying in a one-on-one interview that Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, and Clark had all voted for the Iraq War. This was no error. He had said this before at a debate and was corrected by Clark (Clark didn't have a vote, of course). I believe he was intentionally telling an untruth in the interview and that it was not an error.

We have had several years of being misled by a President and his administration. Folks are pretty touchy right now about the honesty and forthrightness thing.

There are many good things about Dean. He is not finished, as some of the media now says. But I believe it is critical during this election in particular to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (with a little politics & exaggeration thrown in being okay).

Then there was the debate answer of his where he referred to his second term of Presidency. I don't think that went over well with voters. Candidates must be careful not to start believing their own PR.

All these things are character issues. No, I don't think he's a bad person. And a huge ego is necessary to go through this awful process to become President. But character and truthfulness can coincide with ego. He's not finished, though. If he straightens up his act and starts being a straight arrow on facts and statements, he can still rise to the top again.

[dave29]

59. OK Democrats "unite" - I'll bite

Dean stopped being "Dean" for a bit because his handlers saw, correctly, that people were twisting, turning, obfuscating, spinning and misrepresenting just about every word that was coming out of his mouth. As soon as this happened, he opened himself up to the criticism that he wasn't plainspoken, or passionate (of course, he is now being criticized for being too passionate).

Dean also, in defending himself from baseless charges from Gephardt, Kerry and others probably went too far in campaign ads, tiring the people of Iowa.

However, before all of the madness that ensued from Dean's emergence into frontrunner candidate... Dean clearly led the pack, because people saw Dean for who he was - not what everyone else wanted, at any cost, them to see.

Clearly, it's tough being the frontrunner. I remember a time, albeit brief, where Clark held that mantle upon entering the race. Now it's Kerry's turn - lets see how he does.

Dean has reclaimed the lead before, and I wouldn't be too surprised if he picks it up again.

[mzmolly]

68. Actually the Dean campaign is partly to blame. But I don't feel ANY

candidate could have overcome the media assault that Dean was subjected to month after month, except perhaps Clinton ;)

[RetroLounge]

70. Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the Wellstone

Memorial Service, Part II.

Only this time brought to you by Democrats...