Why isn't Dean tearing the throat out of BushCo 24/7 with Gannongate?

[marcologico]

As far as I can tell, Dean is on some kind of campaign tour, staging mediagenic "debates" with GOP swine like Pat Buchanan. What will come of that? Nothing. They agree on Iraq, which leaves the "culture wars," a collection of wedge issues relevant mainly to the presidential campaign which Dean is supposedly not running in.

So why isn't he doing the one thing he's uniquely qualified and positioned to do, loudly villify the GOP on every possible topic starting with the obvious? Unlike Reps and Senators he doesn't have to worry about reelection, and as Dem chair, he'll never run against a GOP candidate. Dean and only Dean is untouchable by the Texas billionaire boys club. Reid, Pelosi, and Kerry aren't so lucky.

So come on Howard, quit campaiging and get to work. To arms already!

[barbaraann]

1. He's building (rebuilding?) the grassroots of the Democratic Party.

n/t

[usregimechange]

184. You have the power, you have the power, you have...

[jpgray]

2. You need to give Dean a chance

I'm amused that you love all the "Why isn't Kerry doing x" threads from last year so much you had to start one about Dean. Unreasonable expectations and accusations of campaigning seem very mean-spirited to me.

[marcologico]

7. Look, he's not exactly fresh from the ivory tower.

He's been at this game for two going on three years and he doesn't need to be given a "chance." He needs to get to work.

For instance, you and I both know that Mr. Gannon may not be long for this earth, and not even Dean will have the guts to speak ill of the dead. So the expiration date for this story is fast approaching.

[jpgray]

15. I mean you specifically should treat Dean objectively and with fairness

I don't mean that he is an amateur and should be cut slack. Just as you likely don't enjoy hearing accusations that Kerry is cynically saving millions of dollars from his presidential campaign for 2008, Dean fans are not going to enjoy unfounded accusations of "campaigning" when clearly it is the DNC chair's *job* to rally the grassroots and fundraise. If you drop everything and chase after a story before you really know where it's going, you can be led right over a cliff. Cf. the CBS memo story--would you have had our DNC chair tout the memos without knowing the full story? So your demands are unreasonable, and your digs at Dean are undeserved. Why are you posting this unless to rile people up?

[marcologico]

He could be "asking questions." He could be "raising concerns." He could

be calling for "investigations." He could be scaring the hell out of the GOP and keeping them on the defensive so all their crummy SS "reform" and class action "reform" (which Chimp signed yesterday, where's the outrage on that??) initiatives go right down the shitter.

[jpgray]

33. Just like Kerry could have "stopped Bush from stealing Ohio?"

Sorry, I don't buy either argument. When a politician doesn't do something, too often people attribute magical and wish-fulfilling powers to that something--there's no way to disprove the argument because it is a pure hypothetical. Had Kerry not conceded early, would we have won the election? My guess is no, but it's impossible to prove that. Dean pushing Gannon now is unnecessary because it is already all over the news, but further it is dangerous because we don't know where the rabbit hole goes yet. The bloggers will keep up their end, and Slaughter et al will keep up their end. Dean has enough on his plate right now without having to be the frontman for pushing the Gannon scandal. There are an equal number of serious pitfalls to worry about when pushing the Gannon story--these seem more likely to apply in my view than the possible benefits you cite.

[marcologico]

34. Apples and oranges. Yes, it would have been nice if McAuliffe had spoken

out on the issue. Kerry, being the candidate, (a) did a considerable amount of skirmishing and planning before the campaign (remember those lawsuits in Ohio, two of which reached the Supreme Court the day before the election?) but (b) had to concede as soon as the results were clear, which he did. McAuliffe could have kept the issue going, but that wasn't his game.

That IS Dean's game, he's had LOT'S of practice, he repeatedly said as much when running for DNC chair ("I admire their discipline and organization"), so where the hell is he?

[patomime]

68. I believe the Gannon issue ....

smacks of Karl "propaganda minister" Rove. No matter who else goes through the process of getting in to the press room --- doesn't Secret Service" know about it?

That's why Dean needs to stay out of it -- the White House and particularly Karl Rove knows just about everything and everyone going in and out of there.

Howard Dean is smarter than they think --- dems don't need to jump on everything in sight --- that's why they started criticizing him early. They're working on 2006 elections.

Get it? Just MHO. :kick: :kick: :tinfoilhat: :grouphug:

[hippiechick]

3. Oh, yes ... Dean is now the ONLY Dem who can speak out.

:eyes: What about all the Senators and Congresscritters currently sitting in DC ?

What about some of the so-called Liberal Media ?

[marcologico]

9. My point is that they have to worry about reelection and the GOP smear

machine but Dean, who is not facing any such campaign, does not.

And there really isn't much of "liberal media" unless you want to count Nation magazine and Counterpunch.

[shance]

35. Thank you HC. They are the ones who bellow LEAVE POLICY TO US DR. DEAN!!

Look where their AMAZING policy wielding has gotten us.

God help us all.

So few of them minus Boxer, Kennedy, Byrd and a few others have the spine to do anything constructive or Democratic in nature.

THEY have voices and have told Dean to shut his mouth. What are the jellyfish Senate/House crew addressing other than the safer, easier more palatable topics these days? Where are Kerry, Pelosi, Reid, Biden, Clinton when the REALLY tough appointments and issues come up? Where are they on Negroponte, on the additional funding of Iraq, on the class action legislation being passed, on the Patriot Acts I, II,and the coming attraction of III.

Where in the HELL ARE THEY?

They are AWOL time and time again.

[marcologico]

36. Gannongate is not a policy issue; it's basically a campaign issue,

and that's now Dean's bailiwick. Paging Dr. Dean! Emergency!

[shance]

52. You BET it deals with policy. Try media policy, WH access and propaganda.

and policies being implemented through such informational instruments. Of course it involves policy.

BTW, you cant have your cake. If the legislators did their jobs for a change and would stop being so obsessed with Dean, we might actually make some progress.

Dean's been doing just fine without them trying to bridle him and stop his ability to reach people. Seems to me it's their ego driven control thats wreaking havoc on our Democracy, namely by their own cowardice and laziness.

One thing mainstream Dems and some Republicans get as well, is Dean cares.

We don't get that from many of our leaders because many don't seem to care, or atleast their actions seems to reflect a lack of concern. There are quite a few leaders on the hill who refuse to take any of the important risks necessary or make any sound choices for the good of our country. If I am wrong, I wish more of our leaders would start proving us wrong.

What do most of these legislators alike care about, other than keeping their glorified positions on the hill and their pensions (which I think are already locked in)? Their actions, or perhaps better said, their inactions, give them away every time.

[Griffy]

62. its about PROPAGANDA PROPAGANDA PROPAGANNON! nt

[havocmom]

4. Dean plays well in Red States and that is where he is working

Let him play his game plan, It's a good one. Somebody else can wallow in the mud with Rove's decoy boy. It would not be good for Dean to micro manage such as tawdry affair.

He is better getting the populist message out and that is where we really need to work. There are plenty of DEM pit bull types to rumble with Rove's dirty tricks and diversions.

Campaigning IS Dean's work. If you want a rumble, by all means, get to it.

[marcologico]

19. "Somebody else can wallow in the mud." Who for instance? n/t

[Al-CIAda]

28. Rep. Louise Slaughter & John Conyers

2/18/2005

Gannon’s own statements suggest he fed exclusive stories damaging Bush opponents to networks; Bragged of feeding Rather story
By John Byrne | RAW STORY Editor

“Gannon’s stuff was always golden,” the producer told Aravosis. “How does this small news outfit get this info?”

Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY), who has been leading the charge with Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.) for an inquiry into the Gannon affair, expressed amazement at the new revelations.

“Every day brings a new revelation,” Slaughter told RAW STORY Friday. “If this pans out to be true we can add it to the mounting stack of evidence that Mr. Gannon had a special relationship with the White House despite his dubious credentials.”


http://rawstory.com/news/2005/index.php?p=98

[marcologico]

30. They could use some help. And Conyers will pay a price as usual.

Remember TurkeyGate? Remember Conyers backing a bill that would let Arnold run for president? Conyers, Boxer and a few others are willing to take flak or pay the political price, or have safe seats, but most aren't so lucky.

Dean is in a position to do all the heavy lifting here and unlike them he has nothing to lose. So where is he?

[Vinnie From Indy]

29. How about you? You seem to have a penchant for throwing it! n/t

[marcologico]

31. Sure but let's agree on the target. If and when Dean gets that right

he's got my support. I'm asking him to do his job.

[havocmom]

37. There are plenty of us here mixing it up with MSM about it

There are lots of bloggers going at it like good dogs with tasty bones.

We don't win when we put all our efforts on just one sideshow. Dean has other work to do. Let him do what he does best, and he decides that, not any of us. Let those good at sniffing, researching and media blasting do that.

Go make assumptions about somebody else.

[marcologico]

38. What he does best is what he promised to do, and that's slime.

That's what l that "I admire their discipline and organization" crap was about. That's what he's supposed to be doing.

So Howard, get on it already!!

[babzilla]

67. what Dean does best is not "slime"

"slime" connotates spin. That is what the republicans do.

What Dean does best is reframing the debate.

What that is, is not falling into the traps set by Rove &co.

Dean's discipline & organization is about not falling into the trap set for him.

[stevedeshazer]

5. It is the role of the press, not Dean, to expose Mangate

Dean is working hard doing exactly what he should be doing.

For the record, I was not a Dean supporter, I was for Kucinich and then Kerry. However, I believe that Dean is a perfect fit for DNC Chairman at this time.

Would you have wanted the same from Terry McAuliffe?

[marcologico]

18. The press only "reports" the news; politicians have to make it. Or

that's their excuse when aked, "why the hell didn't you report on X, Y, and Z?" (the absence of WMD, for instance).

Unless Dean is out there shooting flames, they'll find something else to talk about, just like Rove and Chimpster want them to.

[knight_of_the_star]

180. If he did that

It would play into the stereotype of him that BushCo made that makes him out to be a flaming lefty who shoots from the hip without thinking. That would damage him too much.

[cestpaspossible]

66. Yeah, let's leave it up to the press.

After all, they've been so aggressive in pursuing all of the other Bush scandals...

[sendero]

6. Why isn't Kerry...

.. after all, he's in the Congress, Dean is merely a party organization chief.

[jpgray]

10. Thanks, you've just furthered the purpose of this thread

There needs to be a circular firing squad smiley.

[marcologico]

13. No that's not the purpose -- the purpose is to get Dean to seize a unique

opportunity to hammer the GOP before it vanishes. Gannon/Guckert may not be around much longer.

[jpgray]

20. To me this thread reads like an attempt to stoke internecine bickering

This one specifically seems designed to needle Dean fans, and I really don't enjoy reading those sorts of things on DU.

[michaelwb]

134. Oh, yeah

You've got that right. Another Dean bashing thread. Funny I remember how when Kerry got the nomination we were supposed to lay off Kerry for the good of the party. I guess the new party chair working to reform and save the party doesn't get the same treatment.

Coming next:

"Why hasn't Dean Stopped Global Warming!"

"Why hasn't Dean caught OBL!"

"Why hasn't Dean Cured AIDS!"

[KittyWampus]

21. I Don't Believe You. This Only Serves To Stir Shit Up For No Productive

reason.

It isn't Dean's JOB.

[havocmom]

54. A wolf pack smilie would be handy too, wouldn't it? (n/t)

[marcologico]

11. Kerry has to worry about a popular election. Dean doesn't. n/t

[CWebster]

14. So, Kerry is excused from doing anything, waiting for that battle over

the next hill, because the meanies and bullies may beat up on him?

Poor widdle Kewwry!

[KittyWampus]

22. And You Fall For The Bait- Congratulations.

[marcologico]

23. It's not a policy issue, and Dean's job is not to make policy. His job

is to get Dems elected, and if he really admires Republican "discipline" so much, now is his opportunity to strike while the iron is hot.

[CWebster]

130. Like the mindless echoing of "support the troops"

which gets idiots, by extension, supporting the cause as consensus, this blabber about Dean not making policy is an empty claim. The truth belies it.

Why else would Dean going around debating the like of Richard Perle? So, echo the meme, but it is meaningless posturing.

I would suggest he is striking, right off the bat.

[bluestateguy]

8. I think there has been quite enough about GannonGuckert

Thos of you who think this story is somehow the beginning of the end for the Bush White House would do well to remember the past pattern of scandals that did not produce the promised results. I don't have time to list them all. Like the other scandals, this will be kicked around by the media for a little while until they get bored with it, counter-accusations will be made against the accusers to show that "both sides do it" and the whole thing will be dropped.

[IronLionZion]

17. It's been "the beginning of the end" enough times

Bush has been "toast" so many times on this board that it's like crying wolf. This story will meet the same fate.

The only reason it's getting so much play now is because the idea of a gay Republican prostitute in the white house is sensational and funny. That's all. If he was just spewing propaganda then this would have been swept under the carpet already.

[NorthSideCubsFan]

39. crying wolf

"The only reason it's getting so much play now is because the idea of a gay Republican prostitute in the white house is sensational and funny. That's all."

DING DING DING!! Winner!!

Absolutely. It was important to try and get Dem politicians on board to oppose the Ohio vote fraud. That's an issue of lasting significance. This issue by comparison is trivial and would make Dean or anyone else look like crap esp. if they harp on the gay prostitute angle.

[marcologico]

41. That's what he's there to do -- make hay out of non-policy issues, like

MonicaGate, which led to a total GOP takeover of the country.

Not bad for a "trivial" issue.

[Griffy]

63. YOU are so wrong... its about PROPAGANDA and gannon is a plant!

exposing this IS the important thing... from the payloa of Armstrong Williams and others.. to these shill and plants.. even gay protitutes planted in the WH.. please, dont downplay this... like election fraud, its of the uttmost importance! PROPAGANDA.. use the word!

[Griffy]

64. think.. why dont people know about the stolen elections.. PROPAGANDA!! nt

[Griffy]

65. its amazing how little people know about the real * .. why?..PROPAGANDA nt

[IronLionZion]

12. Chairman Dean is doing his job

building up grass roots and strengthening the party. He's touring the country including the red states so we can win some elections. I stronly support him in that pursuit.


What the fuck is he going to say about some gay whore on Bush's press team? And what good would it do?

[KittyWampus]

24. Well Said, I'm Glad This DU'er Started This Thread. It Says A LOT

if you really scrutinize it.

[Capn Sunshine]

90. That's an understatement

Like all position papers coming out of the dark sith's pulp mill, there is a LOT between the lines. :headbang:

[BR_Parkway]

16. Letting it go from bloggers to MSM to Congress really is a grassroots

approach. And the quietness of FAUX and the stupid attempted justifications of the RW pundits that are mentioning it are very telling - the longer they continue the more people will understand who really controls what they hear thru the media. If Dean or Kerry or any but the smaller fish (sorry Sen Lautenberg) say much, then the wingers have a target -

At the moment even the boards that normally attract the Freepers in all their outrage are fairly quiet - go over to Yahoo - normally it would be a shouting match over each and every posting. The best I've seen someone do was to paste a few of the Scriptures. But they don't know what to say 'cause InSannity and OxyRush haven't told them yet.

The silence actually gives them time to think for once.

If Dean opened his mouth - THEN they'd have a focus for their hate and the message would get lost. If you are a winger, there are certain names that froth you up - just like Pavlov's dog. Kennedy, Kerry, anybody Clinton, Dean, Jesse Jackson.... these have been played over and over in every fund raising letter, every cry from the speaker's podium to dig deep and give generously.

[marcologico]

25. The problem is it won't get to MSM, at least in a way useful to us, UNLESS

Dean starts slamming it, loud and hard.

This is not time for Dean to be polite and worry about his "reputation." This is his moment to go ballistic and get the message out.

[RetroLounge]

26. Well, since your obvious hate for Dean

has colored all your posts in the past, and you were slamming him at every opportunity, I really don't give a shit what you think about it or want to know.

Got it hoss?

RL

[marcologico]

27. If Dean did what he promised to do I'd be happy.

As I've said many times, I'd love to be proven wrong about my earlier estimation of Dean's motives in seeking the DNC chair.

So far, his non-response to this story simply confirms my suspicion that it's all about Dean '08, period.

[babzilla]

40. what "Dean promise" are you referring to?

"If Dean did what he promised to do I'd be happy."

[marcologico]

42. to get Democrats elected. n/t

[babzilla]

51. so Dean "going ballistic" on the Gannon story

is in your opinion, the surest way to elect democrats?

I don't see how the Gannon story has anything to do with the democratic party. It is an issue that concerns this administration's penchant for propoganda. The parties of this argument are rightfully amongst the msm who abandonded their post and the bloggers who took up the slack.

Dean "going ballistic" over this issue would only serve to feed the jeffjim-as-private-christian-victim meme that the repub ops are now trying to promulgate.

Why should Dean lower himself into the pit of the mess of their own making? You know what happens when you lie down with dogs don't you?

[marcologico]

53. Did Monica help Chimp win two terms? Or help the GOP take control

of the Senate, the House, the press, and the entire freakin' country?

Sorry, that's politics. Rove is effective because he's not on the ballot, so he can sling the mud while Chimpster "prays."

Well, neither is Dean, so let's get on it!

[babzilla]

59. What does Rove have to do with Monica?

dubya didn't run against clinton.

Gingrich, Livingstone, Barr and Hyde all went down (no pun intended) because of their overexuberance on the Lewinsky matter.

Sometimes it's cleaner to let others sling the mud.

[marcologico]

60. "Sometimes it's cleaner to let others sling the mud." Exactly!

Like Rove, Dean is not up for reelection, making him the ideal hit man. It's a job he's not afraid of so let's urge him to start hitting!

[babzilla]

77. So what is your definition of "hit man"?

How can Dean fulfill the "going ballistic hit man" persona that you envision?

In your opinion how can Dean exploit this issue to ensure that he keeps his promise to elect democrats?

[lonestarnot]

188. No but my guess is that Rove has already done it with Gannon/Glucky/

Glukert or whatever the hell he calls himself.

[KissMeKate]

73. please tell us what election has happened between Feb 12 and now?

thanks.

[sendero]

69. Since you are always on hand..

... to dis everyone BUT Kerry, why are you surprised when your beloved is called out. The time for the major dirt dishing was during the campaign but Kerry just couldn't do it. In fact, he let them kick sand in his face repeatedly, and it cost him the election.

It really isn't Dean's job to discuss non-policy related activities of the President. The last I heard, Congress was supposed to provide checks and balances.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Kerry to do his fucking job, and I surely laugh out loud at the idea of him getting nominated again.

[RetroLounge]

71. Funny, you are the only one on this thread

who thinks this thread isn't flamebait.

Maybe we can nominate someone in 2008 who won't run and hide at the first attack from the right wing. Won't be your boy Kerry; his time is up. Over. Kaput. Reporting for Doody.

:hi:

RL

[DU GrovelBot]

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[candy331]

43. Must be nice to throw this red meat out there and sit behind your

computer and laugh your ass off. Keep it up maybe the last laugh will be on you.

[marcologico]

44. I'm not laughing. I'll laugh when Chimpster resigns in disgrace and takes

his criminal administration with him.

Guess what? It could happen. So why the hell isn't Dean on it? And why isn't there a huge e-mail campaign to GET him on it?

Let's strike while the iron is hot!

[candy331]

45. Sorry, don't believe you since I can hear your laughter revere rating

to where I am. Kerry should take this one,how good it would be to avenge himself for the swift boat smearing of him.

[marcologico]

48. If you think you hear my laughter, there's not much I can do for you. n/t

[robbedvoter]

46. What an ugly flamebait thread!

I am not even a Dean supporter, in fact I left the party altogether and get shivers at the Rovian style of attacks like this one. I hope DU-ers ignore this.

[marcologico]

47. On the contrary. You've either misread the thread or not read it at all.

n/t

[robbedvoter]

114. I read you loud and clear - it's all DU regulations allow me to post here.

[LizW]

49. Flamebait.

[marcologico]

50. Guys, the message here is "to arms" (last line of OP), not to start a food

fight, so yes, I happen to think Dean is campaigning when he should be working, but I also think he'll get the message if he hears it.

So why not send it?

[babzilla]

55. give us the difference between

"campaigning" and "working".

What are you proposing that Dean do when you say he should "go ballistic"?

[marcologico]

57. By "campaigning" I mean running for president. By "working" I mean

advancing the interests of the ENTIRE party by taking out Chimpster like the GOP took out Clinton (and subsequently the rest of the party) in his second term over a "trivial" sex scandal.

[babzilla]

70. and by "going ballistic" you mean?

What would you have Dean do to "go ballistic" on this matter?

BTW the GOP didn't take out Clinton. I'm pretty sure Clinton's approval polls were better than dubyas comparatively. They tried to take him out but failed miserably.

The Gingrich revolution suffered because the puritanistic overreaching that they espoused did not mesh with the facts of their own personal marriage histories. Seems to me that the "going ballistic" option is one that serves hypocrites best. Dean need not sully himself in this game of "slime".

[marcologico]

108. Let's start with the Sunday shows and take it from there. n/t

[bush_is_wacko]

56. I don't think it has anything to do with being connected to a smear

campaign. I think there are people on BOTH sides of aisle involved in similar issues.

[marcologico]

58. But this is an issue we can cash in on big time. What, it's not fair

because they do it to? You bet they do, and that's why they control every branch of government right now!!

[bush_is_wacko]

61. Oh, I'm totally in agreement with you. I just don't think our politicians

feel the same way. It kind of pisses me off that they just can't shake the monkey's off their back and clear the air.

It seems they are willing to damn the entire world over sex! It's pitiful really!

[KissMeKate]

72. ah yes, another "dean sucks" post from Marcologico. surprise surprise.

"what, Dean isnt the second coming? start a topic attacking him!"

[marcologico]

75. You're not understanding my point. My point is to get him moving

before Gannon has his "accident" or whatever and the story's over. We can help by organizing a mega-email campaign (a friendly one is fine with me) urging Dean to hold the GOP "accountable."

[KissMeKate]

76. your point, as ever, is to bash dean, just like when you made up

those sites being "related" to Howard Dean when you had ZERO evidence that they were.

[marcologico]

80. That's not correct. I'd start by rereading the OP. n/t

[KissMeKate]

82. which isnt correct- your history of posting that you dislike Dean? or

the part where I correctly stated you made up connections between web sites and Howard Dean without any evidence?

[KissMeKate]

please tell us what elections have happened between feb 12 and now?

you said upthread you would support him "if he did what he promised"- "get democrats elected"

what election are you specifically talking about, when you imply he isnt "doing what he promised"?

[marcologico]

83. At the rate we're going '06 is a wash. This is Dean's golden opportunity

to make sure that doesn't happen. It appears to me that instead, he's working on his own '08 presidential campaign (thus the "debate" tour), which is not what a DNC chair is supposed to be doing.

[KissMeKate]

86. ah nows your chance to throw in a "hes running for president" accusation.

You can (and obviously will) twist anything Dean does to look like hes running for president.

Im not going to give you legitimacy by continuing to kick your preposterous accusations against Howard Dean. Youll have to stew in your own hatred alone.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marcologico]

91. Speak for yourself. n/t

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marcologico]

105. I don't appreciate the repeated insinuations, so knock it off. n/t

[Capn Sunshine]

110. I'm not insinuating.

I'm merely stating that there are a lot of people whose only purpose online is to divide the Democrats and foster as much dissent as possible. I'm seen it stated elsewhere.

I'm sure the message of this thread was not intended to do so.

Just attacking the message, not the messenger.
It's a suck message.

[marcologico]

115. You're right, you're not insinuating, you're openly slandering.

Give it up already.

[Zensea]

116. Aren't you openly slandering Dean also?

Looks like it to me.

[marcologico]

117. No of course not. It's not allowed for one thing but my point is he needs

to get moving on this story before it sinks like a stone. Why would e-mailing Dean and asking him to hold the GOP accountable be so bad?

[Zensea]

118. Go right ahead and email him then

This is what I consider borders on slander since it implies 1) that he's lying about not running for office and 2) that he hasn't been working

from your original post -- "So come on Howard, quit campaiging and get to work. To arms already!"

As for holding the GOP accountable, he's been doing that, just not on your pet issue here.

[marcologico]

119. Asking the party chairman to do his job isn't slander, it's participation.

If you can't be bothered, fine, but an organized mass e-mail would be a lot more effective.

And we shouldn't have to be asking him--he said he wanted the job. So what is he doing? Debating Republicans on TV like he's already the '08 candidate. Unbelievable.

[Zensea]

121. Why do you get to decide what the specifics of his job are?

Where in his job description does it say he has to criticize this particular instance of corruption?

By the way the debate with Perle was scheduled months ago. If he had backed out of it would you be criticizing him for not doing his job?

How is debating Republicans about Gannon so much more important than debating Republicans about foreign policy? You say he should be on it 24/7... to the exclusion of every other issue? That's the implication in 24/7.

We all pick our battles. You think Dean should pick this battle, but if he doesn't think so -- which so far it looks like he doesn't think so, how is that bad as long as he is picking battles? He must think there are more important things for him to be dealing with right now.

[Capn Sunshine]

124. Don't take offense

I'm sure you mean well.
BTW:
slander
A noun
1 slander

words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another


I haven't spoken anything falsely.
and whose reputation are you referring to?

[marcologico]

125. If I was offended by slander, dishonesty, repeated misrepresentation

or any other hallmarks of hysteria I wouldn't be here.

[lojasmo]

142. You probably wouldn't do those things so often. EOM

[JNelson6563]

145. His longevity here at DU is quite telling

isn't it? Runs a bit counter-intuitive to the "Support Dean as DNC chair" campaign of late.

If nothing else the mysterious methodology of who's ban-worthy and who isn't is an interesting enigma. Like solving a baffling puzzle....

Julie

[Touchdown]

74. What makes you think he isn't?

Do the Repugs yell because Rove or Gillespie hasn't publically come forth on some stupid outrage of the week they have? They're involved, but they've also got surrogates to put their face, not his forward.

I don't see why Dean has to be the face delivering the message. Look, he gets elected to the Chair. Gannongate comes out, and it, unlike so many other atrocities from this cabal, actually has legs, and the right has no response for it. Is that just a coinkidink, or is something else ging on?

I'm not ssaying I know anything, but I'd like to see many more coincidences like this one.

[marcologico]

78. He's got to get out there on the airwaves 24/7 until the whole "discourse"

is all about SodomyGate and the GOP gets hogtied like Dems got hogtied for two years over MonicaGate.

[KissMeKate]

81. making it "sodomy gate" would kill the democratic party.

thats a ridiculous strategy that would brand the democrats as puritans- your strategy sucks and Im glad Howard Dean isnt following it.

[marcologico]

84. MonicaGate didn't exactly kill the GOP. n/t

[Dr Fate]

89. True- "Scandal Fatigue" won 2000 for them in the long-run...

...but they lost the mid-terms, if you recall.

Perhaps we can have the best of both worlds if we play our cards right- Top DEMs could discuss the propaganda/media control angle, and let the pundits talk about all the seamy stuff.

I'll bet if we frame it in a clever way, we can get Republicans and the media to talk about the sex on their own- they ARE obsessed with it afterall.

Top DEMS need to be on TV everynight "raising questions", but Kerry, Obama, Dean, etc dont need to be like Newt Gingrich

[marcologico]

94. Monicagate broke in '98. They took back the WH in 2000 and by '02

they controlled every branch of government AND the press.

[Dr Fate]

96. I know- I'm agreeing with you on that point...

I just dont like the thought of Dean or Kerry being dudes who go around talking about Gay-Sex all the time- that sounds too much like the creepy impeachment managers- we can be a little better.

We need to be clever about this, is all I'm saying. We can focus on the other points and let THEM be defensive about the sex angle, for instance.

[marcologico]

100. I agree that the language should be clean but the message should be clear:

CHIMP IS BOFFING BOYS IN THE OVAL OFFICE!

[Dr Fate]

101. LOL!!!!

Hey- I wont stop you pal!!! ;)

[Zensea]

104. How would that message help the Democratic Party?

It wouldn't in the slightest.

[marcologico]

109. It would keep the press focused on the issue, which would keep Congress

focused on it, which would lead to investigations (let's hope), then to hearings, then to impeachment, and then to a big green Army helicopter on the White House lawn carrying Chimpster into oblivion.

Au revoir!

[Zensea]

111. Saying Bush is boffing boys would hurt the Democrats, period.

Gannon's lack of credentials is one thing.
The spurious suggestion that Bush is boffing boys is another thing.
If the Democrats were stupid enough to say anything like that they'd go down in flames.

[marcologico]

126. Saying Clinton was boffing interns didn't hurt Repulicans. Use whatever

words you want.

[Zensea]

131. The difference has to do with homosexuality

There was no question that Clinton was heterosexual.
If Democrats started saying Bush is homosexual, it would completely backfire.
That's just the way this country is. It would be an attack on his manhood and his morality that would be perceived as beyond the pale.
I think the difference is obvious.

[marcologico]

139. That makes it better, not worse, don't you see? If it was an ordinary

hooker they'd just say "at least she's not on welfare!"

[horklet]

186. Kerry '08? BAH!

I can just see the Kerry '08 campaign now. The repukes will say "Ha Ha, we owned you guys in '04, and your boy Kerry just rolled over. Hey, American Peeps, you want a bunch of savage, ruthless bastards running things, or a weeble like Kerry?

No thanks.

[Touchdown]

92. You missed my point.

I asked you what makes you think he's not doing anything about it? Why does it have to be HOWARD DEAN that personally delivers the message, as opposed to one of his surrogates?

And..."Sodomygate"???? :wtf: Pretty homophobic title for an unqualified prostitute that got so close to the President using an alias. What's your angle here?

[marcologico]

93. "Why does it have to be HOWARD DEAN?" Because that's his new job.

And what surrogates are you talking about? He doesn't have any that I know of, and if he does, they aren't talking either.

[Touchdown]

95. Really?

I heard it on Al Franken, read it on DailyKos, watched it on Kieth Olberman, and talked about it myself to others.

How are they any different than Gillespie's surrogates NoFacts, Insannity, OReally? Coultergeist, Limpballs, and your typical wingnut at work?

Dean is a lightening rod. As soon as he speaks up about Gannongate itself, the story becomes DeanGate, and is no longer about Gannon.

Now, defend your homophobic remark!

[marcologico]

97. By surrogates I mean party officials or reps, but I suppose KOS is a kind

of surrogate.

And where's the homophobia? I don't see it, but I'm happy to apoligize for it anyway.

[Touchdown]

98. "SodomyGate."

Very homophobic, Babe.

[Dr Fate]

99. I agree- Howard needs to be talking about this.

But I dont think he needs to be talking about gay-sex all the time.

This is a GREAT story- but it can easily blow up in our faces- DEMS need to talk about the corruption/propaganda angle- the sex-talk from everyone else will follow naturally.

[marcologico]

103. I'm down with that. Here's Imagevision's idea for a mega-email:

Maybe it's time to mega-email Dean for more accountability from Bushco?

Democracy/Accountability! We need to band together stronger on this and do the email floods again, this time to Dean!

--thanks to Imagevision

[Dr Fate]

79. He needs to talk about "Media-gate" and not "Man-date-gate"

I agree that Dean needs to adress media propaganda, linking it to this story- but we need to to frame it in a way that keeps the GOP/media talking about the gay-sex angle instead of us...

"Its not about the gay-sex prostitution, thats not the issue- the issue is Whitehouse control & payoffs with the media."

Its enough for Republicans, the media and bloggers to discuss the Man-date-gate angle without Dean dipping into that.

[marcologico]

85. Sure, he can call it media-gate and let the tabloids connect the dots, but

the thing is, it'll fade fast if he doesn't start hammering it.

[Dr Fate]

87. We agree- all Top DEMS need to start adressing media-gate...

And the Gannon angle is a perfect way to get it off the ground- just leave the sleazey sex angle for pundits to discuss- the typical DEM response should be:

"I'm not here to discuss the gay-prostitution angle- I'll leave that up to you Blue-dress types! (Wink wink) I'm more concerned with the fact that Bush is engaging in media propaganda..."

[benny05]

106. Not his purview

He can raise issues, but only the Congress can get independent hearings, I believe.

[marcologico]

107. Sure but Congress won't unless the press beats the drum, and THEY won't

unless Howard gives them something to report.

Chimpster sure as hell isn't going to go on the Sunday shows and yak about Jeff!!

[Gyre]

112. You're a fool. The dumbest thing in the world

is to attack before you're in position to win and to gain ground. You think Dean's been able to cobble together anything in a scant few weeks that can match the machine the pubes been putting together for the last 30 years?

Gyre

[marcologico]

113. Dean is the fool (or worse) for letting the ball roll between his legs.

He needs to be asking questions, raising concerns, and calling for an investigation 24/7. And he doesn't need a "machine" -- the press isn't likely to ignore ANYTHING he says on the subject.

edit to correct spelling.

[Geek_Girl]

120. I agree with you that someone high up in the democratic needs to bring

attention to it but I don't think that's Dean's roll.

If President Clinton spoke up about this it would really add fuel to the fire. He would come under serious criticism which would cause allot of controversy and maybe the press would dig deeper to get some answers.

[Laurab]

122. Looks to me like someone really wants Dean to fail...

at what he's supposed to be doing. I like Dean, I like Kerry, I like most Dems with the exception of Lieberdubya and Zelly and a couple others. I don't think it's any of their jobs to do ...well, whatever exactly it is you're suggesting. I believe there is still a Democratic PARTY, and I'm sure they're aware of this whole thing, and will take whatever measures they deem to be appropriate, without inflicting harm on their own party.

There are a few fighters now in the party, which is nice - my guess is they're in the process of figuring out how to handle this.

Why you're attacking Dean is beyond me - and you ARE attacking him, in some backhanded manner. It's clear even to me, and I'm not a "deaniac" - don't even know all that much about him. What I've seen, I like, and he certainly seems to breathe life into the party. If the time comes when the party would benefit from him speaking on this particular subject, I'm quite sure he won't shy away from it.

[marcologico]

128. On the contrary. I want him to do what he's supposed to be doing,

helping Dems win in Congress and in the '06/'08 elections, and so far he's failed to seize a golden opportunity to beat Republicans with their own scandal stick.

If he doesn't have the stomach for politics 101, he's useless. We won't win any other way.

[Laurab]

140. Like I said, looks like someone really wants Dean to fail.

Your arguments make no sense - you just want the guy to fall flat on his face, or, in effect "seize a golden opportunity" to make an ass of himself. They really need to take a careful approach to this, as I'm sure they are doing, or it could blow up in their faces. Lets see exactly where, and how high, the scandal goes. We don't control the media - the other guys do.

[marcologico]

141. The only way he can fail is by failing to speak out, and that's exactly

what he's doing.

p.s. try to get beyond the Dean thing. Imagine it was Frost or Rhoemer. Wouldn't you want them beating the war drum?

[lojasmo]

143. Or he could rant and rave about a non-issue....

And make himself look like a lunatic. I'm sure that's what you're actually advocating.

There are bigger fish to fry both within our party, and within the administration.

Gannon is really not much of an issue compared to the reast of this administration's follies.

[marcologico]

159. Monica was also a non-issue. And Bush didn't win on issues, he won on

slime.

[lojasmo]

172. Bush won by hoodwinking evangelicals.

And I don't condone sleazy attack gimmicks.

But hell, write to Dean anyway. I'm sure he'll appreciate your ideas as much as I do.

[lojasmo]

133. Yup. I wondered how long it would take.....

For the O.P. to start tearing down the new leader of the Democratic party.

Looks like one week is the magic number. I guess that's a respectable time for mourning.

I hear Frost joined Faux news.

[zulchzulu]

123. DNC Chair is fundraising organizer...not Hot Rod Yellbot

I'm sure Howard will have plenty of jokes to start off the fundraiser at the Des Moines Holiday Inn Democratic Party Fundraiser...

[marcologico]

127. Sure but not exclusively. Any of the others could have done that. Dean

promised to out-play the Republicans at their own game, sliming, or let's call it "going negative," which Dean is famous for having done in Iowa.

[B Calm]

129. I like to see him finding a replacement for Zell Miller!

[lojasmo]

132. When you're the DNC party chair.....

Perhaps YOU can run the party as YOU see fit.

Of course you'd have to be a member of the party. Perhaps you should run for precinct chair, and actually do some work yourself.

Or write to Dean for christ's sake. I'm pretty sure he's too busy to read about your wishes over here on D.U.

And yes, you do have to ask him to do what you want. There are as many opinions on how he should do his job as there are members of the democratic party....probably more than that.

Keyboard quarterbacks make me laugh.

[hippiechick]

135. I guess a better question would be: What are YOU doing about Gannongate ?

You know, that whole representative democracy thing ?
Contacting your Sens and Reps and media insisting that they address it ?
Printing articles etc to leave for mass consumption in your office cafeteria, or on car windshields, stapled to telephone poles, etc ?

Why are you sitting there with your thumb up your *** waiting for someone ELSE to do the work for you ?

:shrug:

[robbedvoter]

136. Trowing hand grenades in an united front? Getting us to attack

each other rather than the matter at hand? Kinda the MO I noticed.

[marcologico]

138. I'm not throwing hand grenades at DUers and never have.

That appears to be what Deaniacs do, in this thread at least.

[JNelson6563]

146. You seem to keep hitting soft spots Robbed

all I can say is "Bravo!" :toast:

Julie

[marcologico]

137. Dean is the DNC chair. I'm not. What I'm doing is trying to get him off

his duff and out there doing his job.

You could be helping me instead of wasting time bashing me, but it's your choice.

[Zensea]

148. As long as I'm wasting time

I decided to count up the posts.
I guess you believe it is not a waste of time to post regarding this topic since around a third of the total posts on this topic are by you.
So judging from that evidence I'd say it's not a waste of time for anyone else to post on it either, if we take you as our mentor.

[marcologico]

152. No, discussing it is not a waste of time. I'm saying an even better use

would be to organize a (friendly) mega-email campaign urging Dean to speak out on Gannon before he disappears.

[Zensea]

158. Like I said before, do so if you think it's a good idea

I don't, so I won't.

Also, I have a couple of comments on your assumptions.

The Plame story is a real story and although it continues to appear to disappear, it keeps returning and will do so whether particular Democratic leaders make a case of it or not, because it's a criminal investigation.

If the Gannon story is a real story, it won't disappear. Why are you afraid it will without the intervention of the magic powers of Howard Dean? Are you really?

Also, on the other side of things, if a high level serious traitorous offense such as the Plame incident has been fading and reappearing only because of the criminal investigation, what makes you think that some two-bit sleazy story about someone's press credentials has got any better chance, no matter what anyone does?

[marcologico]

160. If he's people-powered he needs to hear from people, not just one person.

In other words there's strength in numbers.

[Zensea]

162. Well I cast my vote

& it's to have him worry about other stuff.
If I write an e-mail to Howard Dean it won't be about Gannon.
It will be about something that I believe is more substantial and long term, not about the scandal of the month.
I'm not going to suggest to Dean that he swat at flies.

So you think it's more serious than swatting at flies? I think your time would be better spent having the press get involved in this. They're the ones whose reputations are really at stake & if they can't see that, I seriously doubt anything Howard Dean says or does will change their minds.

I do mean to say the scandal of the month, also. I've been around a bit & this stuff seems relatively penny ante to me in the larger scheme of things.

Perhaps if you spent more time spelling out why it is not penny ante instead of asking Dean to do so, you would get more accomplished.
Think how this message of yours would have been received differently by people if you had suggested a letter writing campaign to their particular congressman or Senator, or to the members of the DNC who elected Dean. This fascination with the leader, asking the leader to take on every cause, or in this case, your particular pet cause of the month (what's it going to be next month that dissatisfies you?) really puzzles me.

[marcologico]

163. Sure, and Watergate was a "penny ante" break-in. Monica was a "penny ante"

hand job. It's not the political import that matters (although this IS important from a number of angles, including a possible connection to the Plame affair), it's the potential for bringing down the Bush administration that makes it urgent.

Or wouldn't you agree that bringing down the Bush administration is a good idea?

[Zensea]

169. I remember Watergate quite well

Do you?
My opinion is that Watergate was quite different. Both in substance and in that there was a Democratic House and Senate at the time who could effectively address the issue of a president from a different party.

Again, my opinion. You have your opinion, I have mine.

I don't think that Monica-gate brought down the Clinton administration.
It froze it, yes.

I agree that bringing down the Bush administration is urgent.


I am glad to see in your response here that you are focusing on the actual issue, not on Dean.

[BlueInRed]

144. I thought your main complaint before he became DNC chair

was that he would be a loose cannon, making a mess of things by carelessly speaking on things. Now, if I understand you, you're complaining because he's not speaking out and he's being cautious in what he says, as he promised the DNC delegates.

If I hadn't read so many of your comments about what a disaster Dean would be, I might be more open to the post. But, it seems to me Dean will never be able to win with you, no matter what he does or says.

I say give the guy a chance to do what he (not others) said he would do as DNC chair, which is reorganize the party and show up in red states. As I see it, you're faulting him for honoring his word. I already know you'll disagree, but it just seems to me it will not matter what Dean does because you'll fault him for it. If Dean was speaking out loudly, I think you'd be complaining that it's not his place to speak up and that was the arena for currently elected officials such as Kerry.

[marcologico]

147. No, my main complaint was that he'd use the position to run for president

instead of taking care of party business.

Looks like I was right.

As usual.

*sigh*

[Zensea]

149. two weeks in and 3 and three quarters years away

Two weeks into the job and almost 4 years away from the next election and you Know he's already running for president? Got any stock tips for me?

[babzilla]

150. In case you are really interested

here is Dean's plan for taking care of party business as posted on the Democratic party website.

http://www.democrats.org/index2.html

Governor Howard Dean's DNC Plan
1. Show up! Democrats should never concede a single state, a single district, or a single voter to the Republicans. We must be active and compete in all 50 states and work with the state parties to build a true national party.

2. The success of the national party depends directly on the success of the state parties — we must better integrate our operations by:

Having the DNC pay the salary of each state party executive director to help ensure that the state parties have adequate funds.
Collectively building and sharing supporter lists between the national and state parties.
Recruiting, training, and encouraging candidates to run for office at every level — building tomorrow's farm team from the ground up.
Actively grow local Democratic committees and communities by working with neighborhood activists who can reach out in their communities and enable the grassroots to support state and local candidates.
Maintaining a permanent campaign in every state. We need to establish an ongoing, active presence, which does not have to be recreated every four years for four months.
3. Set core principles that define the Democratic Party and what we stand for and take a bottom-up approach to the development of the Party's message;

4. Use cutting-edge Internet and other technologies to fundraise, organize, and communicate with our supporters;

5. Strengthen our political institutions and leadership institutes to promote our leaders and our ideas — these organizations must work together in a coordinated and integrated fashion to elect Democrats at every level, so that we can take this country back.

[marcologico]

151. Rule #1: "Show up." Would it hurt to show up and ask Dean to fight fire

with fire instead of fading into the telesphere with his new friends Pat Buchanan and Richard Perle?

[babzilla]

153. So debating Perle & Buchanan=making new friends?

Why does debate equal "fading into the telesphere"? Whatever do you mean by "fading into the telesphere" anyway?

Telesphere? No entry found for telesphere at dictionary.com.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=telesphere

When Dean shows up to debate Perle & Buchanan isn't that showing up to fight fire with fire?

Why do you characterize Perle & Buchanan as Dean's "new friends"?

Rule number #1: show up is in reference to strengthening the state party organizations. Why would you translate it to mean something otherwise?

:shrug:

[marcologico]

154. Giving the likes of Perle and Buchanan a platform and TV airing is not

what I'd call "strengthening the party." It's giving their lies a platform and an airing, for which they're no doubt grateful, which is why they're Dean's new friends.

[babzilla]

156. so now you claim that showing up to debate is giving them a platform?

I thought your original post was all about how Dean should "go ballistic" on Gannon.

Let me get this straight. Dean should "show up" and "go ballistic" on Gannon, which would strengthen the party. But when he "shows up" & debates Perle & Buchanan he is giving their lies a platform.

What is the distinction?

[marcologico]

157. Precisely. He's wasting time. What are these "debates"

supposed to accomplish, besides positioning Dean for another run in '08? This Gannon story isn't going to be around forever.

[babzilla]

161. These debates accomplish establishing the difference between

democratic and republican ideals regarding foreign & domestic policy. Hardly a waste of time.

Why do you think that Dean "going ballistic" on the Gannon story 24/7 would be more effective in electing democrats than debating the merits of policy?

[BlueInRed]

171. I disagree that he is running for president, but we'll have to wait & see

I'm sure you won't be convinced until 08 rolls around. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. I really hope you will be pleasantly surprised.

I know that I feel he has found exactly the right spot for his talents to do the party the most good. We need strength at the state level to get a level playing field on a national level.

[LSdemocrat]

155. When your opponents are going down in flames . . . don't get in the way

Other people are doing a fine job exposing Gannongate, if Dean got involved it would actually harm the story by making it a partisan issue.

[marcologico]

165. I wish that were true, but I don't see anybody going down in flames except

maybe Gannon, who hasn't even taken down his XXX websites (he's just moved them.)

[mattclearing]

164. Whining about Dean...again.

Funny, I was about to ask the same thing about you. Instead of going after Gannon, you appear to be going after Dean. What gives?

[marcologico]

166. I'm not going after Dean, I'm trying to get Dean to go after Bush.

Sheesh, am I the only one who WANTS to see Bush resign in disgrace?

[mattclearing]

167. No, but you are the only one on a mission to flamebait on Dean.

How about saying nice things about Kerry, rather than attempting to paint Dean as missing the boat?

[marcologico]

168. This isn't flamebait, it's an effort to help make something good happen.

Doesn't anybody else want to see ChimpCo make an early exit? I sure as hell do.

[mattclearing]

170. Whatever man. You knock Dean at every opportunity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3099774#3100088

You know, I'm not through with this, I'll add a bit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1570145#1570403

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1570145#1570727

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1552092#1552176

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1552092#1552093

But BullGooseLoony sums it up perfectly with, "It wouldn't be a Dean thread without Marcologico."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1552032#1552096

What is the beef with Dean? I can understand if you disagree with someone, but you attack every time he is mentioned.

Did he kill your dog? Fail to cure your family member's cancer? What is it?

[marcologico]

173. Frankly, I wish I weren't always right, but so far Dean has shown no

evidence that he's using the DNC as anything but a platform to launch his own presidential campaign.

However, it doesn't have to be that way. If he heard from enough people he'd get on the stick. That's why I'm trying to help get a mega-email request launched.

[mattclearing]

174. When Dean doesn't run, what will you do then?

You're the anti-Dean equivalent of John O'Neill.

Vietnam is over, and so are the primaries.

[marcologico]

176. Right now the issue is Gannongate. Let's pretend Frost or Rhoemer was

chair. Wouldn't you want them using their DNC megaphone to hammer the media 24/7 with the news that the Bush White House uses male prostitutes to get their "message" out?

[mattclearing]

178. Nonsense. The issue with you is Dean, Dean, Dean.

If I posted a thread saying, "Why isn't Kerry hammering Bush 24/7 over GannonGate," maybe you'd get it.

Actually, on second thought, the effort would probably be lost on you.

[marcologico]

179. Can we at least agree that SOMEBODY from the party should be hammering

Bush 24/7 over GannonGate?

If so, the logical choice IMHO would be the chair, because everybody else has to worry about getting SBVT-ed in their next reelection and/or losing out on funding and services for their constituents. Dean is the only one who doesn't.

[mattclearing]

181. That didn't stop Joe Biden, who I'm no fan of.

Of course, neither did the rules of academic integrity.

That said, I'm sure Dean will address the Gannon issue. If they are not talking about it, chances are there is a reason for it.

I still think there are better things to do than complain about the new chair.

You complained about him within minutes of his taking office, and you haven't stopped yet.

I challenge you to say something nice about Howard Dean.

[lojasmo]

175. Yes it is, no it isn't.

Yes I do, but this isn't going to accomplish that.

[marcologico]

177. Make up your mind :)

[Al-CIAda]

182. It may be time to turn up the heat.

[Padraig18]

183. Nice flamebait. n/t

[RogueTrooper]

185. I thought America

was more than a Washington media circle jerk. Are you suggesting that Dean should not visit Democrats outside Washington?

[marcologico]

187. First, I don't see the point of this tour. There are much better uses

of his time and talent, and as far as I know, it isn't part of his job description. A Hillary-style "listening to America" tour is going to have zero effect on keeping the Gannongate story alive, meaning that if it weren't for Durbin and a few other brave souls it would be dead in the water politically.

Secondly, Dean is not an elected representative; he's a party functionary. There's no particular need or purpose for this tour apart from his '08 ambitions and personal vanity.


edit to remove double negative.