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can someone tell me whats so bad about bush's social security plan

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bobbobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:52 AM
Original message
can someone tell me whats so bad about bush's social security plan
it doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me, except that bush is for it, which is usually an indicator that somethings not right...I'd like to know the drawbacks to his plan and also the benefits.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Do Yourself A Favor and Read Krugman in the NYT
It's all there.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. JINX
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. Damn...do a little research...its not like there isn't enough
info out there. Read Krugman's columns for a good summary.
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bobbobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. this is my research
since when is asking a question to get pointed in the right direction frowned upon? chill out and let me learn dude...you're hindering my education.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. OK fine...good luck...my bad
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. Besides being the biggest taxpayer ripoff on history...
Edited on Mon Feb-07-05 10:56 AM by Skink
In a nutshell it won't work. Even WallStreet is leary of it. They'd rather have a healthy economy over one time fees.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Please read this thoroughly. Thank you.
Edited on Mon Feb-07-05 10:58 AM by HuckleB
This is a long piece that covers the issue fairly well.

Confusions about Social Security:
http://www.bepress.com/ev/vol2/iss1/art1/

Click on "View The Article" to view the article.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. LOL...start with - It doesn't FIX the deficits in Soc Sec...period
everything else is BS
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. Ask yourself these questions:
What happens to my retirement account if the stock market fails, slumps or crashes?

Do I feel like taking my retirement funds each payday and betting on one spin of the roulette wheel?

Do I feel like taking my retirement funds each payday and buying a lottery ticket?

Social Security is INSURANCE for your retirement years, not gambling money.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
9. Here's my article on it, written last week for our local paper.
Edited on Mon Feb-07-05 11:06 AM by Liberty Belle
SOCIAL INSECURITY?
OPPOSITION GROWS TO PRESIDENT’S
PROPOSED CHANGES FOR RETIREES

By Miriam Raftery

The American Association of Retired Persons (AARP), the nation’s largest senior citizens lobbying group, has announced its opposition to President Bush’s plan for privatizing a portion of Social Security.

“We are dead set against carving private accounts out of Social Security taxes,” William Novelli, CEO of AARP, said. “We can fix Social Security without dismantling it, which is what private accounts carved out of Social Security do.”

The AARP joins a growing chorus of concerns voiced over the President’s proposal, including objections from several prominent Republicans, leading Democrats, labor unions and other groups.

The President plans to unveil proposed legislation that would allow workers to divert some of their Social Security payroll taxes into private accounts. (The White House prefers the term “personal accounts,” according to a 104-page Republican blueprint on marketing Social Security, which was leaked to the media. That blueprint urges GOP lawmakers to tout “personalization” through “ownership” and to avoid the term “privatization” because it “connotes the total corporate takeover of Social Security.")

Supporters of the “ownership society” concept maintain that younger workers would have the opportunity to achieve higher returns on their investments over time.

But critics argue that the proposal amounts to gambling with retirees’ futures. What happens if individual make bad investments, such as stock market losses or investing stock options in Enron or another company that goes bankrupt?

“Taking some of the money that workers pay into the system and diverting it into newly created private accounts would weaken Social Security and put benefits for future generations at risk,” a letter to AARP members signed by Novelli stated.

The normally conservative Wall Street Journal agreed. “Less well advertised is that, in return, workers would forfeit some traditional benefits when they retire,” a January 30th article in the WSJ stated. The article concluded, “Private accounts not only wouldn’t restore Social Security’s 75-year solvency, they would add to its immediate shortfall: Taxes diverted to workers’ own accounts would have to be made up somehow, to pay today’s retirees.”

To cover that shortfall, the White House has suggested borrowing up to $2 trillion, adding to the national debt. “I’m certainly not going to support diverting $2 trillion from Social Security into personal savings accounts,” Republican Senator Olympia Snowe (R-Maine), a member of the Senate Finance Committee, told CNN.

In a Democratic radio address on January 15th, Senator Debbie Stabenow (D-MI) pledged that Democrats would fight to keep the “security” in Social Security. Stabenow warned that privatization could lead to benefit cuts of up to 25% for some current workers and up to 45% for retirees in the future. Workers retiring in 2075 “would receive monthy Social Security benefits 46% lower than under the current structure,” a recent Washington Post article estimated.

Details of the President’s proposal have not yet been disclosed, but insiders suggest the plan may initially allow private investment in only a handful of specific funds to lessen risk.
Some have raised concerns over how privatization would impact the disabled. Currently, workers who become too ill or injured to work may retire early and draw full Social Security benefits. Under the President’s plan, critics fear, workers who are disabled early in life may face shortfalls if they haven’t earned enough through private accounts.

While supporters and opponents of Social Security privatization dispute the impact, both sides agree that some changes will ultimately be needed. That’s because the the baby boomers will draw Social Security benefits as they reach retirement age, outnumbering younger workers paying into the system. But proponents and critics disagree on the severity of that problem—and how it should be solved.

President Bush maintains that allowing personal investment is necessary to save Social Security. “By the time today’s workers who are in their mid-20s begin to retire, the system will be bankrupt,” the President stated in a speech on January 11th in Washington, D.C.
The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, however, reports that Social Security could fully fund 100% of retirement benefits for nearly 50 years (through 2052) even if no changes were made, and could continue funding retirement benefits at 70% for decades more.

“I don’t believe there’s a financial crisis,” California Senator Diane Feinstein said. “I think to put this out as a financial crisis is misleading.”

Senator Barbara Boxer (D-California) expressed concern over the Bush privatization plan in a letter to a constituent, noting “we cannot afford to divert needed funds away from an already stressed Social Security system.” While pledging support for ensuring the short- and long-term health of Social Security, Boxer added, “Benefit cuts or reductions in the standard of living for seniors are not the answer.”

The Cato Institute, a conservative think tank, reports that Congressman Duncan Hunter, who represents East County, supports privatization. Hunter responded “Yes” when asked in a Cato Institute poll, “Do you favor or oppose Social Security reform that would allow workers to save a portion of their payroll taxes n a personal retirement account?”

Another Cato poll found that just 14% of voters agreed that Social Security is “in crisis,” but most feel that some changes are needed. Cato found 55% of seniors oppose allowing younger workers to invest in private accounts, while 61% of younger workers support the proposal.

An AARP poll, however, showed dramatically different results. AARP found that while 43% initially favored private accounts, support dropped sharply in all age groups when people polled were told that consequences of the change might include reduced benefits at retirement, a ban on early retirement, and creation of a new government agency to administer the program at a $1 trillion cost.

A whopping 83% favor strengthening Social Security—and 60% think private accounts would hurt Social Security, according to AARP. A poll by the Wall Street Journal and NBC News revealed that an overwhelming 95% of Americans oppose cutting Social Security benefits, making the president’s plan a tough sell.

To prevent benefit cuts, some are calling for other options to be considered. Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona told CBS’s Face the Nation that a hike in payroll taxes “has got to be on the table” along with other financing options. House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Bill Thomas, also a Republican, has said that Congress should consider a value-added tax or other changes to fund Social Security.

Democrats argue that the current system amounts to a regressive tax, since Social Security is withheld only from the first $90,000 in income, so lower income people pay a disproportionately high share in relation to what they earn. Raising that level to $140,000 or increasing the retirement age gradually to 70 would be better solutions than diverting funds to private accounts, many suggest.
Who benefits from privatization?
Diverting just 4% of Social Security into private accounts would generate windfall profits of $75 billion a year for financial service firms, analyst with CIBC World Markets in New York, reports. Privatization would also benefit stock brokerage firms and mutual fund managers. According to OpenSecrets.org, the largest contributions to the Bush reelection campaign in 2004 came from the financial/insurance/real estate sector, which donated over $33 million. The two top contributors to the Bush campaign, Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch, both stand to reap hefty profits if workers are allowed to divert SSI withholdings into private investment in the stock market.

Most would agree that Social Security represents a social improvement over Colonial American era “Poor Laws” (which forced some impoverished seniors to wear a “P” on their foreheads), or almshouses to which some elderly poor were relegated in 19th Century England.

Social Security began in 1934 as part of the New Deal signed into law by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt during the Depression. Before Social Security, 50% of America’s senior citizens were living in poverty, including some who lost savings in the 1929 stock market crash.

Today, less than 10% of senior citizens in the U.S. live below the poverty line, thanks to Social Security. The program was hailed as modernization by progressives and criticized as big government intervention by others.

President Roosevelt’s grandson, James Roosevelt Jr., has become a vocal critic of the Bush plan—and of the President’s inaugural speech reference to FDR. “The implication that FDR would support privatization of America's greatest national program is an attempt to deceive the American people and an outrage,” Roosevelt wrote in a Boston Globe editorial. Roosevelt also sent a letter asking Progress for America, a conservative organization, to cease using FDR’s name in its advertising campaign.

Senate Democrats are calling on the Government Accountability Office to investigate alleged illegal use of taxpayer funds by the White House to promote the President’s plan for partial privatization of Social Security. At a hearing Friday, Democratic Policy Committee Senators heard testimony from two Social Security Administration employees who said the agency’s marketing plan inappropriately requires workers to publicly promote the Bush plan, which the workers view as a partisan political message.

“I do not believe it is proper for public funds or public employees to be used to stir up fear,” testified Steve Kofahl, a Social Security claims representative.

“The president cannot turn the Social Security Administration into his own lobby shop,” said Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.). Democrats liken the effort to recent revelations that federal agencies have paid newspaper columnists and TV commentators to promote White House policies—a tactic that violates federal prohibitions on covert propaganda, undermining credibility of the media and the Administration.

Republican National Committee spokesman Brian Jones dismissed the Democrats’ concerns as partisan politics, adding that the hearings “deserve an A for stagecraft and an F for honesty.”

The latest twist is a debate over whether changes should be made to Social Security based on race. Bush has observed that African-Americans are more likely than whites to die before receiving their fair share of benefits.

But an Associated Press article on January 29th points out that statistically, African-Americans actually benefit more from Social Security under the present system than whites. Lower-income workers receive more benefits than higher-income workers in relation to amounts paid in. In addition, more African-Americans that whites receive benefits from payments made to the disabled and to the spouses and children of deceased workers.

Support for private accounts is a reversal of Bush’s statement in the debates that he did not support privatization of Social Security. He now maintains that voluntary personal accounts will provide “ownership” benefits to workers, along with an opportunity to build retirement nest eggs that can be passed on to their heirs. The program will “strengthen and save Social Security for generations to come,” Bush says.

Workers’ representatives draw a different conclusion. The AFL-CIO website has action plan for labor union members and others, along with this statement: “President Bush’s plan to replace Social Security’s guaranteed benefits with risky private accounts would hurt working families. It would force drastic cuts in benefits and saddle our children with $2 trill in debt, most of which we would owe to foreign countries such as China and Japan.”

Citizens interested in voicing their opinions on Social Security legislation can obtain contact information for Senate and Congressional members at www.congress.gov.



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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
10. According to VP Cheney yesterday on Meet the Press
It will further indebt the Treasury by a minimum of $768 billion, and not fix the problem. I don't know what stage you're at in your education on this issue, but I would think that any solution that runs up that much more debt and doesn't do anything to fix the problem pretty much tells me all I have to know.

"What can you give me for this cold, doc?"

"Well, I think we should cut off your right hand, that will be a good start."
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. because it's a transfer of wealth from taxpayers to brokers
who will handle the buying and selling of these retirement funds' shares.

Also, it's so obvious to me that the late 90s and the internet bubble hysteria was a test-run for these funds.

Generally, you'd think that devolving decision making power down to the individual level would be a good thing. However, investing money is very complicated, and you have to ask yourself who you trust more when it comes to making investment decisions, democrats running funds, republicans running funds or yourself.

Ok, I don't trust republicans running public funds.

Now, if you think you trust your own decision making powers, think about the internet bubble. The media pumped stocks so high, they convinced a lot of people to buy bad stocks, and they helped shift a lot of money to corporate insiders in the process. If you made all your retirement investment decisions, do you think that you could trust that the media was giving you the most accurate information you needed to make those investment decisions? Do you think you'd have the time to get the real infomration?

I doubt it. And I think that's what republicans are counting on. They want people to control their own portfolios so that CNN can advertise Time-Warner stock...know what I mean?
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
13. His plan isn't "fixing" but rather destroying Social Security.
His plan basically does two things:

1) It ensures the destruction of Social Security by bankrupting it;

and

2) It funnels public treasure into top-bracket wealth-mongers.

Bush's is a Social Security DESTRUCTION Plan.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's a $2 trillion + "Carve-Out" of the current SS System silly !
He's destroying the current system and not fixing anything. Taking that much out of the system and not replacing it is just plain WRONG.

Corporations just want to lower a portion of their payroll tax. You get to make up the difference Joe Sixpack !
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
15. Krugman repeatedly discussed it in his op-eds
... this is not my topic, but I'm sure a quick search of the NY Times archive will deliver some Krugman op-eds.

His point is that the system is certainly not broke.

A second point is that the suggestions being made are based on extremely unrealistic assumptions (was discussed here on DU only recently), eg regarding the average stock market returns and pe ratios in the future.
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Broca Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Where is the Crisis?
Bush practices the politics of distraction and distortion.

In the management fashion typical of Bush he has declared that Social Security is in crisis and may only be fully funded for the next 40 years. The military is only funded through September of this year, Health and Human Services is only funded through September. The Bush war is creating thousands of veterans every week that will drive the Veterans Administration to a crisis in funding as these veterans come to make claims on the system in the coming years. Yet, Bush sees none of this and chooses to attack one of the most solvent and most successful of America's social programs. Using the same Modus Operandi of deception he used to manufacture a false crisis for the Bush war he now is attempting to mislead the public on Social Security. America is only taking in 58 cents for each dollar it spends and Bush's tax breaks to corporate donors will preclude any improvement. Add to this fiasco an illegal and immoral war and it's easy to see that the real crisis is in the White House not in Social Security.

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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Welcome to DU, Broca!
I totally agree that his obsession with SS is an example of distraction and distortion.

If he is so interested in the well-being of the children, why then does he produce this huge budget deficits? Why doesn't he care about the environment, global warming?
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Welcome, Broca!!! Good observation about the distraction/distortion.
:hi:

It's true. Bush and the neoCONspirators have polished the politics of "distraction and distortion" (eg deception for purposes of manipulation).

Welcome to DU!!!
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jab105 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. Also it will tie S/S to wages not inflation...
wages grow alot SLOWER than inflation...which means that to begin with you get a lot less...
\
Add that to the fact that it doesn't fix the problem and puts us an immediate $2 trillion in the hole...

you can get Krugman here:

http://www.pkarchive.org

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
17. NYT: "Read the Fine Print"
Edited on Mon Feb-07-05 11:34 AM by flpoljunkie
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/06/opinion/6sun1.html?oref=login&pagewanted=print&position=

February 6, 2005
EDITORIAL

Read the Fine Print

The more we learn, the worse it gets.


Last Wednesday, as President Bush prepped for his State of the Union address, a White House official gave reporters a background briefing on some of the details of Mr. Bush's Social Security privatization plan. Almost point for point, whatever the president said that sounded good sounded bad when the details were filled in.


For instance, Mr. Bush said, "Personal accounts are a better deal," because "your money will grow, over time, at a greater rate than anything the current system can deliver." But the privatized system actually contains hidden costs that could leave retirees with less. Your Social Security benefit would be reduced, dollar for dollar, by the amount of money you deposit into your private account and an additional charge amounting to 3 percent plus the rate of inflation. All the money that is drained off would presumably go to pay for the enormous upfront government borrowing - $4.5 trillion over the next 20 years - that privatization would require.


That means people whose private accounts steadily earned three percentage points over inflation throughout their working lives would wind up with exactly what they would have gotten if Social Security remained untouched. Anyone who earned less than that would end up with less than is offered by the current system. When asked what would happen to the people who would not have enough income to avoid poverty, the administration official said, "I'm not sure if I'm understanding your question."


The benefit cut is only the beginning. There is still the problem of strengthening Social Security's finances. On its own, establishing private accounts does nothing to solve the long-term shortfall in the system. The president alluded to this fact when he said, "We must pass reforms that solve the financial problems of Social Security." He dutifully listed various benefit cuts that would do the trick, without taking the politically risky step of endorsing any of them.

<>And the much-touted promise that the private accounts could be passed on to one's heirs, as it turns out, is also less than it seems. That works entirely only if you die before you retire. Under a scheme that is going to take a while for the public to digest, the White House wants to require new retirees to use their private accounts to buy annuities large enough to keep them above the poverty line for the rest of their lives. The most they could leave to heirs, then, would be what is left over after the annuities are purchased.

more...
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. the shorter list is what's good about it------nothing
1. The "problem" he claims to be solving doesn't exist.
2. The "solution" he proposes would actually create the "problem" he claims exists.
3. The proposal would transfer up to 30% of the money in the program into private hands.
4. The proposal would reduce SS benefits for everyone.
etc. etc. etc.
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marew Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
21. Krugman is the Greatest! Saw Krugman take on O'Liely a while
back. He had O'Liely's head spinning and sputtering just like in The Exorcist. O'Liely lost it and made an ass out of himself, as usual.
Also heard one economist say that if two people had both worked the same amount of time and both put the same amount of money into Bush's type of plan and one had retired in 2000 and the other had retired in 2003, the one who'd retired in 2000 would get twice the amount of money that the 2003 retiree would get due to market fluxuations. Don't know if that is true but certainly worth looking at and should be able to be determined. Also went to a meeting last Tues. where the speaker was a financial writer for the St. Petersburg Times, Helen Huntley, and who has a great reputation in her field. When she was asked about this 'situation', she said she absolutely agrees with Klugman. The deficits are to SS what the WMD's are to Iraq, the use of lies and fear to put forth a secret agenda. Not only that, Eleanor Clift, a well known writer for Newsweek, said very recently that if Bush would cut the tax breaks to the rich by ONLY one-third, SS would experience no problems at all. I also think people forget that the SS fund has been plundered for other programs for years. Remember, four years ago there was NO deficit and Clinton actually wanted to put some of the surplus in SS. This is all part of the plan to do a reverse Robin Hood. Steal from the poor to give to the rich, a kind of 'Let-them-eat-cake' philosophy. I'm just over 55 so it is not supposed to bother me but it does because it is so bad for America. The middle class will disappear. If I was younger I'd be freaking. PS: No other president has ever given tax brake during a war.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
22. heres the simplest explanation I can give you
It's 1929...

America's workers have been building up retirement savings in private accounts in the stock market. Social Security does not exist yet. Then, in October, the stock market crashes. This means that the retirement savings of millions of retirees and near retirees are wiped out as the value of their stocks plummet. The Great Depression begins and these seniors and workers are now broke.

Then Franklin Roosevelt comes up with this idea to make sure, even in an economic disaster, that retirees will not live in poverty. It's called social security. What it does is tax the earnings of younger workers and IMMEDIATELY pay benefits to retirees. By doing this, there is NO RISK of money being lost in the stock market, bank runs or anything else. Retirees will therefore always be able to have at least a basic living.


Bush's plan would return us eventually to the pre 1929 system where you could gamble your retirement savings in the stock market. It is a plan to get rid of social security without openly saying it.

Don't be fooled by the promises of "higher returns". In basic economics, it is a rule that higher returns inevitably means higher risk.



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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
23. This post stinks to high heaven!!!!
Edited on Mon Feb-07-05 12:32 PM by Vinnie From Indy
How could a person posting on and reading the DU boards ask such a silly question? This person would have to have scrolled by dozens of posts dealing with this very subject, yet his post claims he is stumped, clueless and searching high and low for any information as to the merits of the BushCo. SS plan. I don't buy it! This post is either written to distract DUers or it is by a person that is too lazy to read what is right in front of them.
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bobbobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. ...I posted it...and frankly I am too lazy...Social Security is boring
and i want it distilled for me. I never claimed to be stumped, i just didn't know much about it, and didn't feel like pouring over countless articles. Social Security isn't exactly a trip to Disney Land...never did I mention searching high and low for any information. I just asked what the big deal was...talk about putting words into someones mouth. I submit that your post stinks to high heaven sir.
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retread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Bullshit. You did state that it "didn't seem like a bad idea." didn't you?
How can something you know nothing about and have admittedly done NO research on seem like not a bad idea?
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bobbobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. "didn't seem" being the key word there
on the surface letting people invest their own money seems like a decent idea...admittedly i know nothing about it, and haven't done any research, which is why i didn't say, why are you complaining about social security, its a good idea....i said it "didn't seem"...I made no claim of expertise. I openly admit ignorance, that doesn't mean i can't form an uneducated opinion and use it to gather facts. Chill out man.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Have you read the linked piece from post number five?
Please let us know what you think about the SS plan after having read that.

Thank you.
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bobbobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Yes, i've read everything that was posted..and i've come to the conclusion
that his idea stinks...you can't really argue with history, and he wants to take us back to a time when we were unprotected and suffered the great depression, and under his leadership we're headed there again, we need all the security for our future we can get.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. So--you've been given quite a bit of research material.
What do you think about Bush's plan for Social Security?
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. LOL Honest laziness I can deal with!
I appreciate that you acknowledge that you are too lazy to read what is right in front of you and that you want it "distilled" down to the barest essentials.

Let me help you out with your dilemma using your stated preferences.

"The plans is a rip-off don't support it. Bush bad, very, very bad!"

If you would have only titled your post, "I'm lazy & want people to tell me what to think on SS reform" I could completely support your posting.

Thanks for the chuckle!

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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ken Lay gets to play with your retirement money - how great is this?
Edited on Mon Feb-07-05 12:42 PM by robbedvoter
And W gets to avoid paying back what he took from Social security (i.e - money you put in). Simple enough for ya? (You do remember what Enron did with the pension plan of its employees, do ya?)
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. W's not going to pay back the spent surplus money
regardless of any changes made or not made. That money's gone, deceased. It's a dead parrot.
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TheOriginalAmerican Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
33. Here's what's wrong with Bush's plan....
It's wrong because it's Bush's plan. Just kidding.

It's bad because we have the world's biggest deficit, and we don't need to borrow anymore money at a time when so much of the world dislikes us.

If we try to do this, I'd feel much better about trying it at a time when we have no deficit and at a time when the world favors us more (so we can ensure that we can get loans if we have to). I'd also like for America to be willing to raise taxes if need be to take care of those currently benefiting from Social Security.

Other than that, I'm sort of liking the plan. Folks, it would still be a social program. Money would still be taken out of our checks for SS. It's just that we would have a chance to invest a little bit of it. What's wrong with doing what we want with our own money instead of insisting that the government keep it from us?
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. It won't be a social program if the $$$ has been given to Wall Street!
Technically, the money we pay into Social Security isn't our money, once paid -- so the government isn't keeping it from us. Social Security taxes -- "Federal Insurance Contributions Act" -- are **insurance** payments, not some kind of savings account.

Do **not** get suckered in by this -- stocks will not always be a high-yield-low risk investment. And the right-wing proposed "personal accounts" will not, in fact, be completely tied in to the stock market. I agree, the idea of "doing what we want with our own money" is always an appealing scenario, but this is an illusion being put forth by the money-grubbing right wing -- don't fall for it!!! Social Security was never meant to be lavish, and having private accounts will definitely not make anybody rich, except for the big-money brokerage houses.

Read the Paul Krugman article here -- it's a must on this issue:
http://www.bepress.com/ev/vol2/iss1/art1/
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. This is the beggining of the end for SS.
If this gets passed? It will mean the end for Social Security. That's what so bad about it. And the way that they are setting it up, they won't even have to take responsibility for it. The sheeple will buy that SS collapsed on it's faults, rather than Bush killed it.
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MISSDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. Trying to re-do Social Security has nothing to do with personal
finances, ie, retirement. It has to do only with politics, ie, smaller government. The Republicans have been trying since it was put into place to get rid of Social Security. If Bush gets the personal accts legislation passed it will be the end of the program.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
37. My most immediate objection is that we have to borrow yet more money
to make it work, something like another $2 trillion added to the national debt within the next several years. That's the worst part to me, that it makes our already horrible fiscal crisis even worse.

Also, SS shouldn't be privatized. They tried in England, and now their situation is much worse than ours, after only 20 years or so in the system.
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TryingToWarnYou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
39. I miss the hell out of Clinton...
I was doing some research on this after a Freeper I talk to was telling me "Clinton proposed the very same thing in 99 and all the Dems were behind "fixing SS then", so why is it an issue now?"

Well a little check revealed that Clinton was indeed saying almost the same things about SS as Bush is now, but with one small detail...we werent going to be betting the farm and going into astronomical debt to swing this deal. Clinton was wanting to spend 60% of our enormous surplus (remember the surplus we had?!) for 15 years to "fix" SS. Beyond that, he wanted to take 11% of the surplus and create savings accounts for every American. It was sure inspiring to read plans for a surplus rather than plans for an enormous debt.
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