Dean supporters should take a fresh look at Kerry

[quinnox]

If Dean should lose NH, and things start to look grim, I suggest that Dean folks take a new look at Kerry. If I recall correctly, Kerry was often the second choice of Dean backers in many polls at DU, and they would be joining a great candidate in John Kerry.

[poskonig]

1. Perhaps Dean shouldn't have been bashed 24/7

for the last two months.

It would certainly make my job a lot easier.

[ldoolin]

95. You just hit the nail right on the head.

If Kerry supporters want to know who to blame when you find you have a very hard time getting Dean supporters to even give Kerry a passing consideration, you should know exactly who to blame: Your fellow Kerry supporters. The ones who have been posting 24/7 attacks on Dean to this very forum.

[w4rma]

106. Exactly how I feel. (n/t)

[Cuban_Liberal]

128. Give the man a CEE-gar!

Some of the more thoughtful Kerry supporters here would have done well by themselves if they had tried to reign in the non-stop attacks on Dr. Dean by some of their fellow supporters. I don't see the likelihood that many Dean supporters will likely switch to Kerry now or, for that matter, to Clark. The most likely '2nd choice' among Dean supporters now would be Edwards, IMO, simply because the Edwards supporters have MOSTLY tried to emulate their candidate and have not heaped constant abuse on Dr. Dean's supporters.

[SaddenedDem]

2. Kerry will never get my vote

Nor will anyone who voted FOR the IWR.

[Monte Carlo]

6. Even against Bush?

The man who is responsible for this war?

[SaddenedDem]

16. Even against Bush

If Kerry is the nominee, I will write in Mickey Mouse for President.

John Kerry bears just as much responsibility for the Iraq war as Bush. If he had dared to question, just dared to wonder for one moment, he could have stopped the deaths of 502 American GIs. Instead, he chose to protect his political career. I want no part of John Kerry.

[Monte Carlo]

35. You do not know that.

Kerry has a history of going against the flow. This is OUR war, not just Bush's or Congress'. We are paying taxes that pay for this war. That would make us responsible, too.

[SaddenedDem]

43. I do know it

I begged, demonstrated, pleaded with the Democratic congress to vote against the IWR. They chose instead to protect their political asses. That means they have blood on their hands - the blood of American GIs and innocent Iraqi citzens. He voted to spend our tax dollars on this illegal war, not I. He will NEVER get my vote - nor will anyone else who voted FOR the IWR.

[Monte Carlo]

48. Then you've made yourself impossible standards.

... because no candidate other than Kucinich was so opposed to the war. Does the freedom of the Iraqi people count for nothing?

[SaddenedDem]

53. ROFL....can't argue the points, so...

you revert to right wing behavior. Do you REALLY call what the Iraqi people are suffering today "freedom?"

Do YOU think what the Iraqi people are suffering today was worth the lives of 502 American GIs? I don't. 502 of our CHILDREN died in that godforsaken hell hole, and you care only about winning - at any price. Not me, my vote is worth far more than that as are the lives of those kids whose blood has been spilled thanks to John Kerry.

[poskonig]

59. Two terms of Bush will make you very "saddened."

Nobody voted for a war. Kerry voted against Gulf War 1 and was against Vietnam after he came back. I know the war bothers you, but painting Kerry as a warmonger is dishonest.

[SaddenedDem]

76. I'm afraid you're wrong

and I won't waste a valuable vote on John Kerry to find out.

My vote has more value to me than to sell it for the lesser of 2 evils.

You want to talk about dishonest...let's discuss Kerry's excuse for his vote for IWR. "Bush had us all fooled." Well, all I can say is if John Kerry is that stupid, he certainly doesn't deserve MY vote.

[poskonig]

97. Voting has consequences.

I can only make those consequences clear. For instance, allowing Tom DeLay to appoint two or three Supreme Court Justices is evil. It is *not* worth it to turn this country into a Taliban-like fundamentalist regime because you disagree with a loyal Democrat over a single policy nuance.

Deep down, you know I'm right.

[IndianaGreen]

102. There is no need for you to remind us

Compare Bush's Taliban vision for America in the SOTUS to any of the Democratic candidates, and I would vote for Lieberman if it came down to it.

That's not the issue at hand!

The dogs of war have been unleashed!

[Monte Carlo]

104. Don't act like you're the only one capable of outrage.

And please stop nailing yourself to the cross. You know, you really must shouldn't see this whole mess in black and white terms. I don't know how well you know this, but Saddam gripped the entire nation of Iraq in fear, especially in Baghdad. For 20+ years. The fact that he is now kept neatly in a box does the world some good. To simply reject all of the war is to also reject any good that comes out of it.

The people in Iraq do not need another idealistic, guilty liberal to pity them.

Bush is responsible for this war, and not John Kerry or Howard Dean or Edwards or Clark or anyone else. This was abuse at the highest level.

[zoeyfong]

91. right on

Right on. There is absolutely nothing lower than a politician who votes to send other people off to die unnecessarily because he doesn't want to lose an election. There is no redemption from that. Kerry may have served in Vietnam, but howard dean *learned* from vietnam. Kerry is such a POLITICIAN. The only reason people are looking at him now is because they think he's "electable." Republicans wanted a "winner" in 2000 and they chose George Bush. Democrats had best not choose Bush Lite in 2004.

[CalProf]

110. This is beyond belief

"John Kerry bears just as much responsibility for the Iraq war as Bush. If he had dared to question, just dared to wonder for one moment, he could have stopped the deaths of 502 American GIs. Instead, he chose to protect his political career. I want no part of John Kerry"

Bush was going to Iraq even if the entire US Congress formed a phalanx in front of the White House. Do you pay any attention to history and law? Clinton went to Kosovo without even asking Congress for a by-your-leave. The president can do whatever the fuck he wants. Get over it.

Vote for fucking Adolf Hitler for all it care, but if you say Kerry has as much responsibility for Iraq as Bush, you've shown that you have to learn a bit about how things work in D.C.

[polpilot]

131. A U.S. senator has the opportunity to scream and protest in front of the

congress and call the president a murderer and every time he sees a tv camera to tell the public that Bush is a liar and a war monger and plead his case over and over and over as loud as he wants too every day. His job is to represent the men and women of the U.S. and particularly the men and women of the armed forces. Scream and oppose the evil regime...We don't need apologists and and legal renderings of our representatives cowardly efforts. We simply demand better. We simply aren't as 'accepting' as you are. We simply don't care to behave so well. We are the patriots.

Dean '04...

[drfemoe]

121. Aww come on .

It balances out.

He fights in VN, then comes home and protests.

He votes against Ira* I (the same as most other Dems at the time). (foreign country had been invaded)
Now he votes for Ira* II (the same as most other Dems at the time). (no foreign country had been invaded)

See? Balance in all things. And he's a team player...whichever team is popular at the time. But he says he goes against the flow... whadaya know .. more balance!

[CWebster]

127. During Kerry's interview with tweety

He actually stated that he protested the Viet Nam war when he returned- adding that "it was the popular thing to do at the time".

That is the depth of his motivation.

[zulchzulu]

Check this site out

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/iraq/index.html

It breaks down the complexities of the IWR in timeline. If you support Dean, you should know that he supported the Biden-Lugar amendment, which is identical to Kerry's opinion. And Dean was in agreement with the Biden-Lugar amendment at the time of the vote, which was Ocober 11.

[aquart]

3. November, if your guy's the nominee.

Till then, IWR.

[TLM]

4. You know I decided to take a fresh look at Kerry today...

And he went and said his war vote was right for america.

So he's out of the running for my vote again.

[Melodybe]

10. Kerry will not do well in the south.

People here hate him.

Sad but true they would rather vote for Bu$h than Kerry and to those who think we should ignore the south, thsnks for assuming that the everyone down south is an idiot. People here are mad at Bu$h and to ignore it is fatal.

[mitchum]

77. Not true in the south I know

[George_Bonanza]

86. What if Kerry had a Southerner as a VP?

[ldoolin]

96. nope

Kerry would be the worst of all the candidates in the south, unless he changes his position on gun rights. A southern VP wouldn't help.

[drfemoe]

122. Let me guess ..

John Edwards?
Zell Miller? << He loved Kerry's speech. Transcript @ cnn.

[JVS]

12. Way for Kerry to constantly offend potential supporters

of course that is what he did best when he was front-runner the first time too.

[LuminousX]

21. Kerry was my first choice

until the IWR nonsense and then I discovered Dean. I would have no problem voting for Kerry and quite honestly would probably have switched to Kerry several months ago if Kerry would have just said "My IWR vote was wrong."

Now, he had an opportunity, with so many of the electorate willing to forgive/forget the IWR and move on with Kerry in the lead, and he has to go and screw it up again.

Kerry is a good man. I will be better served with Dean as President, though.

[dreissig]

39. A Waffler in the White House

Kerry was all over the IWR issue, but the bottom line is that he was more afraid of what Republicans and centrists thought of him than what Democrats and liberals thought of him. This man has been running for president for years. He does everything with an eye on how it will be read by the voters.

I don't have to vote for the candidate at the top of the ticket. If it's Kerry, I'll leave that spot blank.

[zulchzulu]

58. Refuse to understand the issue and all will seem fine

Kerry has been consistent with his vote on the IWR. If you really look at it with an open mind, you'll understand. Otherwise, it's not worth defending or debating an issue when someone has a closed mind.

[ldoolin]

98. In a nutshell

"This man has been running for president for years. He does everything with an eye on how it will be read by the voters."

That's Kerry in a nutshell. You have summed him up very nicely.

To understand the above is to understand his votes in favor of IWR, Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind, NAFTA, welfare reform, etc. He has acted just as his mentors in that Yale boys club (which shall not be named) taught him to do when planning a future run for high public office. And this is one voter who is very unimpressed with him. I want fighters, not wafflers. If Kerry had voted in the Senate like Russ Feingold on all the important bills instead of like Joe Lieberman, I'd be supporting him.

[creativelcro]

5. I'm not voting for Kerry. Even if it's against Bush. Sorry.

[Monte Carlo]

9. What do you hope to accomplish by that?

Because all I see resulting from that is one less vote against Bush.

[JVS]

15. One can retain a certain integrity with such actions.

[sangh0]

19. So it's about YOUR integrity?

Does the future of this nation have anything to do with it?

[JVS]

28. stop the lame guilt trip. Yes, my vote is about me.

It is about what I want. If you don't like it go to Russia.

[sangh0]

40. Thanks for the honest response.

If your voting decision is based solely on what's good for you, then why should anyone else consider your argument?

[JVS]

45. Because candidates need votes of individuals, including me.

[sangh0]

60. That's a reason?

I should vote for your candidate because "candidates need votes of individuals, including me"?

[JVS]

63. I'm not pushing a candidate.

There are just some whom I am willing to support and others whom I am not willing to support. You are not doing your candidate any favor with your confrontational attitude.

And what argument did I make. I merely pointed out that one can preserve integrity by not deluding themselves into voting for a candidate who supports things to which they are vehemntly opposed.

[sangh0]

74. Your argument is implied

It says that it's OK to protect one's own integrity with one's vote without concern for how it affects the nation.

You are not doing your candidate any favor with your confrontational attitude.

Then I'd like to recommend a site for you at www.kumbaya.com

This is a political forum.

[JVS]

83. You are building strawmen

You read implications into things and debunk them. If you wish to do this why speak with others at all?

Also, I see no reason that integrity must mean bad results for the country.

[drfemoe]

123. My vote costs me something

1) loss of privacy. Just check with Tom DeLay on that one to find out how much he knows about voters. How do you think he was able to handcraft precinct boundaries in Texas with such precision for his master plan to steal 3 Democratic Congress seats?

2) willingness to serve my state as a juror any time they call on me.

My vote costs the recipient something .. my confidence.

Seems very reasonable to me.

[IndianaGreen]

46. Future of the nation? Kerry will not change one iota of Bush's PNAC war

When it comes to the war and PATRIOT, Kerry is a Bush clone. Kerry is as much into an imperial America with endless wars abroad, and police state at home, as Bush is. Why is that? It is because Kerry and Bush belong to the same ruling class cult, Skull & Bones. The ruling class knows that capitalism is in crisis, and that only wars and rampant militarism can maintain our faux standard of living, by exploiting and keeping under submission everyone else.

[sangh0]

61. I'm glad you agree with me that

the election is about more than one individuals integrity.

[JVS]

65. It is about many individuals' desires.

[sangh0]

75. I agree

.

[Monte Carlo]

33. What kind of 'integrity' are we talking about?

This wouldn't have something to do with the US-taxpayer-fueled Iraqi war, would it?

[JVS]

44. No it has something to do with electing a Patriot Act supporter in the...

name of freedom. Can't quite swallow it. It bothers me to see Kerry and Edwards voting for the patriot act and then their supporters claiming that their opposition to it is so powerful. It is akin to the fireman who sets fires so that they can become a hero. I refuse to encourage such behavior.

[blm]

94. Dean SUGGESTED a Patriot Act 3 days after 9-11 and that was FINE with you?

Dean sounded like fuckin' Bush talking about them attacking us for our "freedoms" and you only have contempt for those you have chosen to oppose?


Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

"...Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”
Mello said Thursday, “the civil liberties Dean seems to be talking about so blithely, that's exactly what makes us different from the murderers who committed these acts.

“It's why they attacked us,” he continued. “I think our freedom is what they find so threatening, our freedom and the power that I think results directly from that freedom.” "
>>>>>

[JVS]

132. 4 points

1. That still does not excuse Kerry

2. 3 days after 9-11 nutty support of Bush was widespread, while this is disconcerting support of Bush's war over a year later is more alarming.

3. By attacking Dean you might succeed in making Dean look bad, but that won't help Kerry. All you are doing is making the Greens look more like the only real alternative to our constant warfare.

4. Dean and Clark were not in any position to provide official defiance to Bush, because neither of them were in congress. Because of this I will not equate their opposition to that of Kucinich, who actually stepped up to the plate against Bush. Kerry, however, was in a position to oppose Bush, and rather than opposing or abstaining he assisted. Kerry failed to stand up to Bush.

BTW I had not heard of that before. I will have to evaluate it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. Exactly right. Something that Kerry and Edwards lack.

What else is there but personal integrity. How can someone possibly claim it if they support those that gave the OK to the slaughter for their own political gain?

"But, but, but...bush will win again and it's all your fault." No it's not. It's the fault of those Democrats that nominated such moral midgets.

[mitchum]

78. Perhaps an attempt to appear "noble" while actually doing nothing

[RetroLounge]

112. Maybe we're tired of voting against someone

and would rather vote FOR someone.

A Vote for Dean is a Vote for Dean.

A Vote for Kerry is a vote against Bush*.

Hmmmmmm. Nope, sorry...

[liberalnurse]

13. Ditto......

I'll just write in Dean on my 2004 ballot.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalnurse]

24. The reply only indicated that one was not voting for Kerry.

Its a free country. I won't vote for him either.... he is a Bonesman just like *bush. I'll write in my vote for Dean.

29. Dean is a Yalie

just like Bush.

Can't we be smarter than this?

I'm a Dean supporter first, by the way.

[liberalnurse]

34. So,t please note

that attending Yale does not mean you are a Bonesman. This is an elite select secret society that arises from Yale.

There is a difference.

89. Noted

meant to reply earlier.

On a slightly different note, I think it's hard to find a candidate that doesn't have some kind of "elite" connection given the nature of the American political beast these days.

Didn't Marx even think the "revolutionary vanguard" had to come out of the bourgeoisie or ruling class?

or in modern terminology be a "class traitor"?

just a thought.

[HFishbine]

7. When

an appeal such as this follows by minutes a deceptive post that tried to pass off a poll more than a year old as relevant, I'm inclined to ignore any plea from the same poster as disengenous.

[liberalnurse]

8. You may as well keep beating your own dead horse.

As a strong and vocal Dean supporter, I find Kerry a miserable failure.

You'll need to look elsewhere as this is not Iowa and the Caucus gang your speaking to.

[JuniorPlankton]

18. Please, please, please!!!

I am not a fan of Kerry at all (after all, I do live in Mass :)
Your should vote whoever you feel is right in the primaries.

But please, when it comes to GE, do what Dean asked everybody to do:
support the Democrat (whoever it might be) and vote against Bush!

[liberalnurse]

30. No, I really have been burnt by the Kerry team as has others.

Dean made the committment, not me. I would also like to share I have voted straight Democrat since I was old enough to vote. Voted for Carter my first time up!

This hate driven group of DLC'ers can go find some other pon to pimp.

[Guaranteed]

31. The Democratic Party is shrinking...day by day...

Simply because they have no courage.

[sangh0]

42. I guess that explains the doubling of caucus attendees...nt

.

[liberalnurse]

47. It was far from doubling!

They had 120,000 this year. Expected 100,000 based on past Caucus.

No need to jump for joy. Voters are few and far between and many here have been abused by the bashing candidate supporters from the Kerry camp. Kerry himself has offended all of the Dean supporters that were in Iowa. We heard of the dirty tricks, the media folks were in on it too..

[sangh0]

62. I see. So up by 20% is "shrinking"?

I gues up really IS down.

Kerry himself has offended all of the Dean supporters that were in Iowa

Kerry offended the Dean supporters who voted for Kerry?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. Not a chance, whent it comes to Kerry or Edwards.

It's time we took the party back. Even if it means voting Green this time. There is no way that I will vote for those that voted for the slaughter.

[Liberal in Ohio]

11. Kerry spent the first 6 months of his campaign bashing Dean

His actions along with Joe Leiberman's weakened the Dems chances of beating Bush in November -- My list goes:
Dean
Kucinich
Sharpton
Edwards
Clark
Kerry
Leiberman

[blm]

67. Dean attacked Kerry while he was in cancer surgery and recovery period.

Kerry was OFF the campaign trail last year when Dean attacked him relentlessly.

You think Dean didn't deserve reciprocation for his viciousness? You think the "Doctor" didn't know that stress was bad for a recovery?

Karma.

[Cuban_Liberal]

130. Quit making it sound like Kerry was on life support.

He had prostate surgery, for God's sake! The man was in minor discomfort and had some blood in his urine when he peed! There was certainly NOTHING wrong with his voice or with his campaign staff, was there?

I am sick to death of the Kerry camp playing the 'invalid card'. :nopity::eyes:

[Guaranteed]

14. I looked for support FROM Kerry a year and a half ago

About the same time 32% of Vermont's people supported Dean's presidency.

[killbotfactory]

20. No thanks.

I'll vote for him just because I hate Bush so much, but he isn't getting any contributions or volunteer time from me.

[IndianaGreen]

22. Kerry will not end this war and he will keep the Homeland police state

Kerry belongs to the same lunatic Skull & Bones cult that the Bush family belongs to. Kerry will not end the war, and he will keep the Homeland police state that Bush and Ashcroft have built with PATRIOT I and II.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/intheirownwords/kerry/6.html

Wes Clark is the solution to a collapse of the Dean campaign. We should not make the mistake that Kucinich made in Iowa in backing a pro-IWR Edwards (although Edwards is far preferable to Kerry in that he is one of us, not one of the elite, and he is not a Beltway insider).

[zulchzulu]

23. Once you bring up S&B, it's beyond any further discussion

[IndianaGreen]

32. CBS 60 Minutes: Skull & Bones

Kerry and Bush are brothers in this ruling class cult!

Skull And Bones

Oct. 5, 2003

(CBS) There are secrets that George W. Bush guards at least as carefully as any entrusted to a president.

He's forbidden to share these secrets even with the vice president -- secrets he has held ever since his days as an undergraduate at Yale.

In his senior year, Mr. Bush - like his father and his grandfather - belonged to Skull and Bones, an elite secret society that includes some of the most powerful men of the 20th century.

All Bonesmen, as they're called, are forbidden to reveal what goes on in their inner sanctum, the windowless building on the Yale campus that is called "The Tomb."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml

[Walt Starr]

37. CBS News is pretty main stream

Yep yep yep. Pretty main stream indeed.

[zulchzulu]

56. S&B is a Yale frat....

Plenty of people who belong to it are in the arts, sciences and are fine people. For you to assume that all people who were chosen for some frat when they were 20 are evil as Bush is very much seen by me as a bit naive and intellectually dishonest.

Kerry's real character was made when he went to Viet Nam. That's where I look for how he began his journey.

[IndianaGreen]

64. S&B is not just a fraternity, it is a cult for the very elite

Only 15 initiates per year at Yale. Bonesmen eventually find themselves into the Bilderbergs, Council on Foreign Relations, and Trilateral Commission.

At Skull and Bones, Bush's Secret Club Initiates Ream Gore
by Ron Rosenbaum

It’s important to remember this is not some fraternity initiation. It is an initiation far more secret–and far more significant, in terms of real power in the United States–than that of the Cosa Nostra. If the Bushes are "the WASP Corleones"–as the ever more stingingly waspish Maureen Dowd has suggested–this is how their "made men" (and women) are made.* It’s an initiation ceremony that has bonded diplomats, media moguls, bankers and spies into a lifelong, multi-generational fellowship far more influential than any fraternity. It was–and still remains–the heart of the heart of the American establishment.

Further revelations turned up by the Observer Bones Investigation Unit include:

• The words to the secret Skull and Bones "death mantra."

• Copies of the Skull and Bones tax returns, obtained through Freedom of Information Act requests, raise questions about the legitimacy of the secret society’s claim to charitable tax-exempt deduction status–particularly relevant considering recent criticism of the Bush tax plan for favoring the privileged few.

http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/story.asp?ID=4136

[zulchzulu]

115. You should be digging your secret underground tunnel now, not being online

The Black Helicopter people are coming to get you. Haven't you heard? Oh wait... You're not a Skull and Bones member? Run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AntiCoup2K4]

25. Read the signature.

[Walt Starr]

26. I stand with ya, they should read mine too

[dansolo]

27. Kerry isn't the only other candidate

I would consider Edwards and Clark long before I would support Kerry.

[CWebster]

36. No.

[1floridademocrat]

38. IF

And a BIG if, Kerry wins the nomination (Which I don't think he will do) I may vote for him. But I won't

A) Send him any cash
B) Do any legwork for him
C) Make a single phone call of support
D) Try to talk a single person outta of voting for Bush

[RetroLounge]

41. No thanks.

The constant Dean bashers made their own bed, now they can sleep in it.

[dsc]

49. All your supporters here save one

have helped his cause immensly in the last two days. While that is not my sole criteria by any means I like to give credit where credit is due.

[ecstatic]

50. No. He still defends the IWR vote

He's filthy rich--never did a hard day's work like most people in this country. From what I'm reading, his military experience is all but staged. http://www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm

[IndianaGreen]

52. Kerry got a Purple Heart for a minor flesh wound (band-aid)

Clark got a Purple Heart for life-threatening wounds he received in battle.

Kerry portrays himself as the anti-Vietnam War warrior. Kerry never gives credit to the other vet that founded VVAW, Ron Kovic.

[isbister]

55. The web site seems extremely right wing

What would a good Democrat be doing reading such right wing trash. Makes bush look like a compassionate conservative!

http://www.usvetdsp.com/main.shtml

[Cheswick2.0]

51. nope and nope

Nope Kerry will not get my vote, I have no 2nd choice. Nope Dean's chances are not looking grim.

[Hawkeye-X]

54. Answer is:

No.

I won't even look at DLC candidates, nor do I want to withdraw my support for Dean. After the skullduggery that Kerry pulled in Iowa, I won't support a man like that.

Also, Kerry's numbers in SC and the Feb 3rd states show that he will be clobbered by Sharpton at best. Thusly, Kerry will be finished after Feb 3rd with only Iowa to his name.

Hawkeye-X

[Options Remain]

57. looking at this thread its no wonder

The enemies of freedom seem to be winning.

divide and conquer.

TearForger

[IndianaGreen]

69. Kerry is the enemy of freedom

Any candidate that still supports the war in Iraq, endorses PATRIOT Act, and proposes expanding the police state into our neighborhoods, is an enemy of freedom!

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/intheirownwords/kerry/6.html

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. Just did. He still supports the war. No way I'll vote for him..ever.

He is probably the least deserving of the Dem candidates - even Lieberman. At least Lieberman is honest about his support of the war.
Edwards just avoids the issue. Kerry blames everyone but himself.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Lieberman has more integrity than Kerry

Lieberman has never wavered in his support for the war, a war that he supported because he wanted Saddam out, not due to some bullshit WMD claim.

[eissa]

72. First, I'm ABB

BUT....I remember clearly when Dean was the front runner (before being attacked so viciously by the DLC establishment) that when the same sentiment was posed here -- support for Dean if he is the nominee -- the overwhelming tone was "hell no" by supporters of other candidates (hate to say it, but mostly Kerry fans). So what did you expect? I tried my hardest to be as gracious as possible during that time, but I never felt the same in return. I always felt the others on this forum sort of looked down their noses on us like we were a bunch of morons. And now I'm expected to just abandon my candidate and all what he represents. Yes, in the end, I will support the nominee -- I just wish the nominee (if it is Kerry) does not make it such a bitter pill to swallow.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. You have a stronger stomach than I do.

But, I respect your decision.

[mitchum]

79. Broad brush there. No one despises Howard Dean more than I do, but...

I will gladly support him if he is the nominee.

[TopesJunkie]

80. Actually, Kerry is way down the list for me --

I don't think he is electable. I'm sorry to say that, but I don't.

If Dean drops, I will go with Clark.

[NashVegas]

81. I'll Take Another Look at Kerry When Dean Drops Out and Endorses Him

And not a minute before that.

[quaker bill]

82. I will vote to remove Bush*

But honestly, I have already looked at John Kerry as deeply as I could bear it.

If it comes to down to this, I will vote against Bush* by checking the box for him. It will not be a pro-Kerry vote.

[Emillereid]

84. I'm not sure where Kerry is on my list --

but if we lose Dean after NH, I'll go with Clark.

[Southsideirish]

85. Not after the nasty campaign he has waged against Dean!

Mr. "lives in a ten million dollar house" will never get my vote.

[duvinnie]

87. Thanks, but no thanks.

HD is the only electable candidate out there.

[GumboYaYa]

88. I already am and I like what I see.

I am particularly pleased with his strident support for alternative energy sources. This is a giant issue with me.

My fear with Kerry is that his accent will hurt him in the South, but the same is true for Dean.

I also like John Edwards. We have an excellent field of candidates IMO.

[askew]

90. I've already looked and hated what I saw.

Kerry represents everything that is wrong with the Democratic Party. While he used to hold strong beliefs 15 years ago, they have all been forgotten as he has spent more and more time in Washington. He is a follower, not a leader. I cannot think of one issue or piece of legislation in the past three years that Kerry has been a leader on. Kerry is simply an average politician. There is nothing remarkable about him in any way. And he does not have a strong personality or anything resembling charisma. Quite simply, he is unelectable.

But truth be told, if Dean doesn't win the nomination (which I am guessing won't happen), I am done with this party. I have been a Democrat since I was a little kid, but I have simply had it. What the power structure of the party has done to Dean and his supporters is inexcusable. I didn't need their support, but I did expect them to stay neutral during the primary. If they are more concerned about holding onto their power base, then about letting the base decide who the nominee should be, I am in the wrong party.

[maxanne]

92. while you're looking

check Kerry's record on Medicare votes.

[Melinda]

93. Not in a million years.

After the way some Kerry supporters have trashed Dr. Dean on DU coupled with his IWR vote... fuck that, Bush will have 4 more years before I'll vote for Kerry.

[candy331]

99. Nope can't do it

Anything stale in my house gets thrown out so no way to give it a fresh look. Kerry should have learned something from his Vietnam experience, he should have been the last to vote for war since he personally experienced the carnage and the way it divided the nation back then. He supports veterans but yet would not stand up to an AWOL and subsequent deserter. Pleazzzzz put the top back on my garbage before the stale stench come in.

[curse10]

100. Interesting replies

but I didn't expect anything other than what I've seen on this thread. Sad. Really, really sad.

[Lobo_13]

101. He'll get my vote

As an ABB & C voter.

But he'll get precious little else from me.

[IndianaGreen]

103. Kerry will lead the Democrats to defeat in November

Consider Wes Clark as an alternative to the pro-IWR crowd. Dean may not recover from Iowa. Kucinich compromised too much when he told his supporters to back a pro-IWR candidate.

I know there are some questions about Clark, and about his support for WHISC (the former SOA), and that it would take a leap of faith for many of us to support Clark. I am prepared to take such a leap.

[Lobo_13]

105. Not on a bet n/t

[JVS]

108. Clark does seem more electable than Kerry

And more likable

[drfemoe]

117. Recover

IG .. 25,000 new Dean supporters have signed up at his website in the past week. His campaign has received more than $1 million in contributions since Monday night. Prognosis for recovery is outstanding.

[HuckleB]

107. If Dean, Clark and Edwards drop out, then I'll be in the Kerry camp.

But not a moment sooner. Sorry, I prefer their stands, and I think they will be stronger in the GE. It's that simple.

[scheming daemons]

111. I agree

Of the four viable candidates, I feel Kerry would do the worst against Bush.

Clark and Edwards are more telegenic, and they're from the south.

Dean's gun record would play better in the south and midwest (and PA and OH and MICH!)


Kerry can be portrayed as a classic NE liberal and he's electoral ceiling is about 150 and no higher.

He has that constantly tired or constipated look about him too. Ok, I'll say it. He's ugly. Sorry... in today's shallow America, ugly won't cut it. Kerry is an ugly man, who seems to have a constant scowl on his beady-eyed face. Not an attractive man to say the least. Sorry... I know that doesn't matter to us here at DU but, subconsciously, a lot of shallow Americans take that into account.

It's why Dukakis never had a chance. It's why Tsongas never had a chance. It's why nobody ever had a chance against Clinton (and still wouldn't).

It's why John Edwards would beat George Bush.

[drfemoe]

126. Don't forget Mondale

If they had had botox back then, he would have gotten many more votes.

[David Zephyr]

109. Nothing "Fresh" About Kerry. The "Classic" Kerry Was Better.

The post 9/11 Kerry ain't much to look at. Certainly isn't anything "fresh" that I've seen.

Classic Kerry, yeah, that's was a better brew.

[VirginiaIs4Lieberman]

113. There is something I don't like about Kerry

I don't know what it is, but he is last on my list, behind Sharpton even. While Lieberman is my first choice, I am realistic in that he probably doesn't have much of a shot. My list is Lieberman>Dean>Edwards>Clark>Sharpton>Kerry If Kerry wins the nomination, I will take a serious look at Nader and whoever the libertarians put up.

[Endangered Specie]

114. My number 2 man is Clark... Kerry is #3.

I wont give up on Dean until after super tuesday

[hellhathnofury]

116. A resounding no!

[drfemoe]

118. I took a fresh look today

Senator Kerry Locks Constituents Out of His Office

A contingent of western Massachusetts veterans and educators have been attempting to visit Senator Kerry's office since Wednesday's announcement that he now supports the war resolution. But repeated attempts on Wednesday and Thursday to get into the senator's Springfield office have yielded a curious response: A locked door and an aid telling them that they are not welcome in the Senator's office. Mike Vito, Senator Kerry's Co-State Director was willing to meet with constituents at length, but not at the office.

The group first encountered Senator Kerry's locked door at 4:15 on Wednesday afternoon, just hours after they heard the Senator's announcement. Previously, Kerry had repeatedly said that he opposed the White House resolution. Aids in his office, confirm that calls from constituents were overwhelmingly opposed to the war. Why then, the sudden change of heart? And why won't the senator even face his constituents to explain himself?

The group spent most of Thursday sitting on the floor outside of the Senator's locked office. Through the glass door emblazoned with the US Senate seal, they could see empty chairs in the Senator's waiting room, while his staff conducted business as usual behind locked doors.

Educators and neighbors from Franklin County will return again to Senator Kerry's office on Friday, 12:30-1:30, bringing statistics on the plight of veterans affected by Gulf War Syndrome, data, pictures and charts about deadly 'depleted' uranium manufactured into ordinance in Concord, MA, as well as the stories and pictures of Iraqi children suffering the effects of bombing and sanctions. As of May, 2002 the Veterans Administration says 159,000 vets are injured or disabled after their participation in the conflict with Iraq.
Senator Kerry's office is located ...

http://traprockpeace.org/kerrypressadvisory.html
bold added

But I did read recently that he will never, never, ever "forget" veterans if he is elected president. Too bad as Senator, he didn't care to unlock his door for them.

[IndianaGreen]

119. At least Kerry didn't call the SWAT team on them

as Evan Bayh did!

[drfemoe]

120. I'm sure they are grateful for that . n/t

[adadem]

124. There are some of us here

who will not, under any circumstances, vote for a particular candidate.

For me those candidates are Lieberman and Dean (as a early supporter I left the campaign for ideological and other reasons).

There will be these small groups of people against every candidate for individual reasons.

Though I solidly support ABB it is important that we personally stand for what is ideologically and morally right for us individually.
I have been relentlessly bashed for my ABBDL stance and I think we sould not bash others for their same stance against a particular candidate, mine included.

Fortunately, we are, as political junkies, in the minority so if a handful of us abstain it will make no difference.

[drfemoe]

125. ABBDL must be a difficult position to defend ..

and I agree, no one should bash you for that stance.

[Slippery_Hammer]

129. No thanks

I've seen more than enough of Kerry. Hell, he's been practically living in my back yard for the last month. I'll give him credit for the hard work he put in getting his win here in Iowa but I would not make too much of it.

Gore won Iowa in 2000 and I see every indacation Iowans will vote ABB in '04.

If you want someone who will say what you want to hear but will maintain the Status Quo when taking office, Vote Kerry.

I'll take the populist campaigns of Dean or Kucinich.
I want the world to see what the American people can do if they use the power this country allows them.

Its time to give the power back to the people. If they don't want to take it, they have no one else to blame.

[Forkboy]

133. Dean people should take a fresh look at third parties