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NinetySix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 09:51 PM
Original message
Maybe Bush was right after all.
I continue to see and hear this expression, and it's creeping me out. Am I just imagining it, or are honest liberals really parroting this phrase? Do any of you see it this way, that the elections in Iraq were a success (or rather, a "SUCCESS!!"), and that regardless of whether the US was right or wrong to invade another sovereign nation who had not threatened our security in any real way, that on balance, the whole sordid event has turned out to be a Very Good Thing? I'm even hearing this kind of sentiment on the reliably sensible CBC here in Canada.

I'm just not believing this shit. Are we liberals really so weak-kneed? Are we all going to stand around, sheepishly waving the flag along with the Right after Our Leader's smashing success in the Sudetenland (metaphorically speaking)?

Imagine the following scenario. A drifter shuffles into Littleton, Colorado. There he meets a couple of young men, high school students Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. For no reason anyone can understand, perhaps not even he himself, the drifter murders these two young men, and is promptly apprehended by police. In the investigation that follows, the police uncover the enormous arsenal of weapons, ammunition and bombs the boys were amassing, as well as their writings, which clearly indicate their intent to carry out their massive, well-planned assault on the students and faculty of Columbine High School.

So, wait ... the drifter was a hero, right?

Fuck me.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, no.
The drifter wasn't a hero. But I'm not going to say it isn't good that they could have elections. I can keep two plates spinning like that, because I'm a slickster.
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NinetySix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Should Hitler be a Jewish hero?
After all, if it weren't for him, there would be no state of Israel.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Nope.
Edited on Thu Feb-03-05 11:02 PM by LoZoccolo
You'll notice that's in line with what I already said about the drifter, though. How many of these are there gonna be?
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. If the analogy wasn't so terribly faulty, I might say something more than,
BUSH WAS WRONG!!! BUSH BROKE LAWS AND HIS OATH OF OFFICE!!! BUSH IS BROKERING OUR PEOPLE FOR HIS OWN POWER!!!

The only people who deserve full credit for whatever the outcome of the lotto draw in Iraq are those people who risked everything for a possibility,...maybe even the possibility that the US will get the hell out of their country.

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Chico Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. Look at this article some right wing nut threw in my face today @ work
http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html

I responded with this:

U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror

by Peter Grose, Special to The New York Times
September 4, 1967, p.2

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

http://www.tompaine.com/blogs/

He responded with "That's the problem with history." WTF is he talking about?
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Wrinkle_In_Time Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. You know exactly what he was talking about...
Edited on Thu Feb-03-05 10:11 PM by Wrinkle_In_Time
...when he said "That's the problem with history." 1) He hates being proven so very, very wrong. 2) He regrets not being able to send that down the "memory hole".

BTW: The article that you linked to provides stunningly clear insight into what is occurring in Iraq. I wasn't aware of that piece of history. Thanks.

{Edit: Great avatar. I have fond memories of the original Max Headroom series -- when he just played music videos instead of fighting crime}
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. that's the problem with history ... lol
yeah, it proves you wrong, dumbass.:eyes:

Excellent job responding with the vietnam article, btw, i'll have to remember that. :D
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. Word. You gave him the smizzackdizzown.
Man, my gangsta roots are showing... :silly:

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BlueManDude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm not hearing that
Sure the media is in full Bush-fellatio mode but that happened when Baghdad fell, when he landed on the aircraft carrier, when they captured Saddam and when they "transfered sovereignty".

Iraq is disaster and a few good days of media spin won't change the reality on the ground.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. What I heard is that the election was forced on Chimp by al-Sistani.
Bremer had no intention of holding elections until the insurgency was "defeated" but evidently al-Sistani wouldn't back down.
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davidwparker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. That's right. Randi was talking about that today.
Iraqi's want us out. We not. 14 military bases in Iraq say we're not leaving anytime soon, but will find excuses to stay. Anybody shocked that * gave no timeframe for leaving durin the state of delusion address?
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CanOfWhoopAss Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. No "Mission Accomplished" banner needed.
If the leaders the Iraqi's wanted aren't elected they won't be as willing to "just move on" as we were in Ohio. If they do get the leaders they wanted I doubt those leaders will do Monkeyboy's dirty work for him. The Sunni's definately won't accept any new gov't that they obviously can't play a large roll in. Things looked great around the time of the Facist Neocon Zombie banner on the aircraft carrier. Give it time and the Honeymoon will end.

Wasn't it posted in DU that the TET offensive took place in Vietnam 4 months after their "elections" in South Vietnam?
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. I for one hope-
that this is the beginning of better days for the Iraqi people.

And I think the fact that we have so many troops on the ground in Iraq
gives pause to other nations in the region.

This doesn't make it ok to have gone to war for the non existant WMDs.
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Chico Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Get that wool out of your eyes
Seriously, this country is f*ked.

A.N.S.W.E.R.'s response to
Bush’s State of the Union address

Empire - the true aim of the U.S. government - is barely concealed under the lofty rhetoric of Bush's State of the Union address. In its pursuit, the U.S. government is committed to the destruction of every government and people that stands in its way, in the Middle East and throughout the world.

"Freedom and democracy" for Iraq and "liberty" around the world are new code words for a very particular global strategy. According to this strategy, the Pentagon's military pre-eminence will be used to invade, bomb, subvert and threaten any and all countries in the formerly colonized and semi-colonized world that seek to maintain control over their own resources and retain even nominal independence and sovereignty. Bush and the neo-conservatives are the political spokespersons for this strategy. Congress and the courts fade into an ornamental status as Pentagon-enforced capitalism asserts itself as the real power in contemporary U.S. politics.

Bush and the Iraq "elections"

The Bush State of the Union Address comes days after the "elections" in Iraq. The timing of the two events was carefully scripted by the White House. Both were organized in Washington D.C. After killing more than 100,000 Iraqis and destroying the Iraqi social and political structure (not to mention the previous Iraqi state apparatus), the Bush administration tonight demagogically postures as the great liberator. This is the pose assumed by all aggressors in modern history on the "home front."

The Iraq elections were manipulated by foreign occupation. Political parties outlawed by the occupiers could not participate. Foreign troops held the country in lock-down. Large areas of Iraq never participated. But even for those who did vote, participation was not a signal of support for the occupation of their country or an expression of love for Bush. The great majority of people in Iraq, who have suffered greatly, want to re-gain control over their country.

The anti-war and progressive movement must look reality in the face as it prepares for the coming struggle.

The real objectives of the U.S. war in Iraq

The Bush administration hoped to quickly invade Iraq and set up a puppet regime. The goal was to destroy the previous government, further secure its geo-strategic interests in the region, and weaken Iraq to a point that any new government would be on its knees before Wall Street and the IMF. This was the overarching goal of thirteen years of economic sanctions from 1990-2003.

This was also the Clinton administration's objective when it forced the removal of the UN weapons inspectors in 1998 and began the daily bombing of Iraq that continued right up to the full-scale "shock and awe" invasion.

Also of primary interest to the U.S. is the economic re-colonization of Iraq. The U.S. government hopes to turn the situation back to the one that existed decades before the 1972 nationalization of Iraq's vast oil resources.

On top of this, the Bush administration added additional goals to the pre-existing imperialist agenda. The most important of the new goals was the creation of 14 large permanent Pentagon bases in Iraq that could be used as a forward staging ground for new aggressions against nations of this oil-rich region.

The goal of the Bush administration was not to occupy Iraq with hundreds of thousands of troops forever. But the vast armed resistance in Iraq has made the withdrawal of the occupation forces impossible. The resistance, as a widespread urban guerrilla force, can only exist with widespread popular support. It has tied up and prevented the Pentagon juggernaut from moving on in full force against Iran, Syria, Lebanon, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela and elsewhere, but it is clear from tonight’s speech that Syria, Iran and others are Bush's next targets.

The Bush administration hopes that the January 30 "election" can confer semi-legitimacy to a new puppet Iraqi government. But the staged "election" will not mean a new dawn for peace - on the contrary. The U.S. government is threatening that if they can stabilize a puppet regime in Iraq, it will open new wars of aggression in an attempt to secure U.S. imperialist global geo-strategic interests.

The U.S. plan for Palestine

Palestine and the Palestinian leadership and people were not officially included with Iraq, Iran and North Korea in Bush's "axis of evil" list during the State of the Union Address three years ago. But the full-scale assault against the Palestinian people has proceeded relentlessly.

Israel's murderous terror campaign against the Palestinian people and their political and grassroots leadership is an organic extension of the war waged against the Arab and Middle Eastern peoples by the U.S. empire. Years of exile, assassinations, colonization, mass imprisonment, the construction of the hideous Apartheid Wall, the forced imposition of mass unemployment and malnutrition are now followed by Bush celebrating the election of new "leaders." Such is the embrace of "democracy and freedom!"

Washington is attempting once again to undermine, divide and destroy the Palestinian national movement. Bush and his advisors are trying to get the Palestinian National Authority to accept a Bantustan-style quasi-mini-state - broken up pieces of non-sovereign territory under the direct control of the Israeli army. They want the Palestinian leadership to sign away the inalienable right of return of the Palestinian people who were driven from their homeland, despite the fact that this right is fundamental under international law. The Bush team is seeking the confinement of the Palestinian people in a Bantustan entirely dependent on the United States.

Empire and "democracy"

Bush claims that the U.S. is not seeking to form an empire. Rather, he claims, "it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture." A look at Haiti exposes this sham propaganda. In twenty-six days the people of Haiti will angrily commemorate the first anniversary of the Bush/Pentagon coup and kidnapping of the democratically elected President of that country. Jean-Bertrand Aristide was the first democratically elected president of Haiti. The Bush administration smashed that government and installed a U.S. puppet regime.

The Bush administration's support for the failed coup and later recall election against the democratically elected government of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, along with the ongoing U.S. campaign to overthrow the Cuban government, further expose Bush’s lies about "freedom and democracy."

In the name of making the world safe for the spread of democracy, Bush has invaded and set up puppet governments in Afghanistan, Iraq and Haiti. He is attempting to deal a dangerous blow to the legitimate national aspirations of the people of Palestine. The U.S. intends to use all available tools to overthrow the government of Syria and reincorporate Lebanon into the U.S. economic sphere of influence. The U.S. is working to draw Libya, with or without the current government, into the its sphere of influence. It is attempting to re-draw the economic and social map of the Middle East, Central Asia and North Africa.

War and diplomacy

War, whether overt as in Iraq now or covert as in Iran, should not be considered as separate from diplomacy. Those who plead that the Bush administration should pursue a diplomatic approach, as opposed to naked military aggression, are making a phony distinction. War, threats of war, economic sanctions and diplomacy are merely tactics and methods, means in pursuit of certain ends. For the Bush administration, the end is creating a far-flung U.S. empire. All the U.S. corporations, the banks and both political parties have 100 percent agreement about the desire of attaining this goal. Whatever differences over tactics, policy and timing they might have are secondary. This is what accounts for the widespread acquiescence among the Democratic "opposition" to even the most adventuristic tactics on the part of Bush, Cheney and their neo-conservative crew.

Defend social security and social programs

The people of the United States must stand against the empire. Defying empire is not only an act of solidarity with those around the world who are demanding the right to determine their own destiny free from U.S. domination. Working people across the United States are also the victims of the empire. Our sons and daughters are sent to kill and be killed. Billions of dollars are being transferred from education, health care, housing and job training in order to finance one imperialist war after another.

Bush announced tonight that there will be a freeze or near freeze for all spending with the exception of military programs. This will mean an additional severe cut in programs that working and poor people depend upon. But he has proposed $80 billion in new money to fund the war on Iraq. This is on top of the $150 billion already spent on the Iraq war (nearly $270 million each day), and over and above last year's $420 billion Pentagon budget.

Every new region of the country that is "globalized" into the U.S. economic sphere of influence becomes a new playground for U.S. corporations in endless pursuit of creating new areas for starvation-wage jobs. Whole industries, not just jobs, are being outsourced. It is clear from tonight's speech that Bush and Wall Street want to privatize Social Security as a devious scheme to steal the deferred wages of more than 100 million workers. The empire benefits the banks and corporations, not the people.

The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition calls on everyone to intensify the organizing that we have all been doing together in the last few years. Millions have demonstrated together, coordinating with people in countries all over the world. This is an epic battle between the people on one side and the plutocrats who own and run the country on the other. Politicians have proved to be incapable of stopping war and empire.

The hope lies with the people. Every step forward in the 1930s or the 1960s and 1970s came from the creation of a mass peoples' movement.

March 19 demonstrations

March 19 Global Day of Action. The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition has been working for months to build and support local actions in cities around the country. In every country, people will be in the streets on March 19 to mark the second anniversary of the invasion of Iraq with protest.

Below is a partial listing of the cities where demonstrations are happening on March 19:

Akron, OH
Albuquerque, NM
Ann Arbor, MI
Atlanta, GA
Austin, TX
Baltimore, MD
Boston, MA
Charlotte, NC
Chicago, IL
Cincinnati, OH
Damariscotta, ME
Denver, CO
Flagstaff, AZ
Fort Bragg-Fayetteville, NC
Fort Smith, NH
Los Angeles, CA
Miami, FL
Minneapolis, MN
New Brunswick, NJ (Rutgers Univ.)
New Paltz, NY
New York, NY
Oswego, NY
Philadelphia, PA
Portland, ME
Providence, RI
Sacramento, CA
Sal Lake City, UT
San Diego, CA
San Francisco, CA
Saratoga Springs, NY
Seoul, South Korea
St. Paul, MN
Tucson, AZ
Victoria British Colombia, Canada
Washington, DC
Whittier, CA
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Thanks for posting that
Well-written and devastating.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. hey, remember 48 hours into the invasion ...
... after those opposed to the war had predicted a long, bloody insurgency with thousands of wounded Americans. As the Marines swept into Baghdad, I seem to recall that some people (perhaps the same ones?) were saying, "maybe this WAS a good plan"?

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TheOriginalAmerican Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. The elections were not perfect.
The sunnis didn't vote as much as they could have for either safety or protestive reasons.

In our country, we have a lot of certain groups that don't vote that much for whatever reason. Maybe it's too unsafe in their neighborhood to be leaving their house for too long. Maybe they think they can't vote for anybody that would represent them. The elections are still legitimate though.

I want Iraq to form their government so they can be independent, so they can tell us to get the hell out of there.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. The Elections were a SHAM.
Edited on Fri Feb-04-05 12:05 AM by TheWatcher
And igf you honeslty think the Iraqi's will be able to form any government that is not a U.S. Puppet Regime, and that they will truly have any say in what is going on in their country, then you are deluded beyond comprehension.

Please wake up, people.

YOUR Vote doesn't even count in your own country. The Elctronic Voting Tabulation in this country is controlled by PRIVATE Corporations.

The whole thing is a joke.

And it is on US. ALL of us.


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JoshK Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. A lot of liberals are indeed falling for this. In my circle, for example,
my nephew and my elderly mother have fallen for it, even though they both basically hate & mistrust Bush.

I don't find it hard to see why they are falling for it: the MSM blitz has been completely overwhelming, and anyone who relies on it for "news" is quite likely to accept the unanimous opinion being blared forth, that the "elections were a success."
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
18. The election, for what is was,
was successful. (There were only a few car bombings... pfft) However, it doesn't matter how much of a success something is if it doesn't have any significance. Nothing changed on election day in Iraq. The only thing that separated it from any other day was that a bunch of people went to designated locations to vote for a party they most likely knew nothing about.

We could have an insignificant election in the United States where our votes stood for nothing more than a mark on a piece of paper. But what would be the purpose?
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NecrotizingE Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
20. It's everywhere.
See the article in the Chicago Sun Times??
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Chicago Sun Times...there's one I try never to read
Edited on Fri Feb-04-05 03:00 AM by LynnTheDem
But they did endorse Kerry. Then again, most media in the US endorsed Kerry, lol!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. Do you mean the Liberal Media...?
...or Democrats you talked to in the grocery line?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
24. I always think of these, and realize it doesn't matter what they say.
The Iraqis will continue to fight the occupation of their land.

Many will continue to die.

They WILL drive us out, at a heavy cost to both sides (damn b**shco for killing all these people for lies!!!).

We will wake up rudely on that day.

And it can't be stopped.

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