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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:53 PM
Original message
Dean: "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for"
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 11:24 PM by TheWebHead
Dean at the DNC Eastern Regional Caucus on Saturday:
"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for."

Why does he keep showing such lack of tact? Dean has a lot of positive qualities, but he has this scary and unpredictable tendency to speak before he thinks about potential ramifications. My fear if Dean is Chairman is that his quotes will become the story of the party rather than the ideas. He can talk about bright ideas with passion during a 1/2 hour interview but say a single tactically stupid remark and get the media to completely focus on that and ignore everything else he said that was wise.

added link:
http://www.nydailynews.com/01-30-2005/news/wn_report/st...
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. link please
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. Here is the Daily News link (Dean said it)
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 11:09 PM by Bleachers7
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ProgressiveDepot.com Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. Democrats Keep Losing, Why Be Afraid of Dean?
While I agree Dean should tone it down sometimes ("disagree with everything the Reoublicans stand for" or "completely disagree" would have made the point a little more stylishly although not as memorably), I believe he may be the only person with the guts to create a clear strategy for the Democrats that doesn't hedge on every issue. I was talking with someone recently and we thought the perfect Democratic candidate would be Howard Dean's strategy and ideas in the background, being delivered by John Edwards. Dean's got the ideas and strategy, but he's too blunt. John Edwards could say the same things while killing them with kindness. (Nothin against John Edwards own ideas, by the way, just commenting on his ability to connect in a positive way.)
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Link, please, so we can see it in context. NT
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. The actual quote, in case anyone cares
Lotta people can't seem to click through to read the WHOLE quote -- but they still have something to say, as if they know what they're talking about. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, here's the actual quote:

"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization," the failed presidential hopeful told the crowd at the Roosevelt Hotel, where he and six other candidates spoke at the final DNC forum before the Feb. 12 vote for chairman.

But Dean said the Democrats should not change their beliefs to be "Republican lite."


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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #45
135. Lotsa People Do The Same Thing Re: Any Other Democrat Who's Not
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 09:03 AM by cryingshame
Dean.

It sucks when you take one comment out of context.

But then even taken in context, it's still kind of a ham-fisted way of expressing himself.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #135
154. How is it ham fisted?
Looks at what republicans say about dems to get their side motivated... hate is probably one of the kinder terms they use.

There is nothing wrong in hating those who rape this country's resources, send this country's children to die in iraq, and profiteer off the pain and misery they create.

Try to understand, that most Americans are not whiny little PC wusses, and they view the dems as SPINELESS mainly because they are afraid to speak the truth and say what they feel for fear of being judged or offending someone. They want someone who will STAND UP for them.

I for one am happy as a republican wallowing in a pile of bloody $1000 bills to see a dem stand up and show some f-ing balls for a change.

I've lived in the mid-west for a little over a year now, and I've met tons of people, literally hundreds of folks, who are the very definition of the working class. People who got laid off when mills closed and have been busting ass to scrape by for years. The working class Americans who are the backbone of the democratic party. These folks, time and time again say the same thing to me when politics come up. "I hate Bush, but I'd rather have him in power than a bunch of pussy democrats."

Do you have any idea how widespread this sentiment is? Our party is viewed as WEAK. Why? Because our leaders cringe at the very idea of someone standing up and saying they hate the other side and what they stand for. Our party has been so overtaken by weak willed capitulating candy asses, that some view even token opposition to the republican agenda as inappropriate and insensitive.

We keep that crap up and we're sure to keep losing.

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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #135
187. I agree. These are not the words of a shrewd leader.
Adding the context helps, but not much. It's not a good idea to say you hate the members of the other party. All of them. Including some whose votes we will want soon.

All Repubs are not the same, just as all Dems are not the same.

There he goes again.
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DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
179. Like Dean, but wish he wouldn't do this
It worries me a little. As a doctor, he should know: First, do no harm.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #179
194. Ah hell I hate em too and everything they stand for!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Link, by any chance? n/t
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yeah, damn the man for having passion
We need another bland, empty suit.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Hey, don't knock bland, empty suits. They've made us what we are today.
Losers.
:evilgrin:
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
58. LOL
But losers with *nice suits* my friend.

;)
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. You miss the point completely. n/t
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. No, I think I get the point perfectly well
Dean's not enough of a politician. He's too much from the heart and not scripted enough.

That's why the DLC finds him dangerous. He could potentially offend someone by speaking his mind.

Fine by me. He couldn't be any worse for the party than Terry Mac.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. You still miss it. n/t
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Perhaps you should explain it, then. NT
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Nah.
It starts with inquisitiveness and an open mind. You have to want to be helped.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I'm not the one who needs help. NT
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I know that. That's the point.
That's why I don't explain it when you ask.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Nope. n/t
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I think so. n/t
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I know you think so. n/t
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #41
53. I know that you know that I think so. n/t
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DFLforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
61. No, it starts with reading comprehension and reading the entire sentence.
"I hate Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization."


Guess what, the sentence is about: admiring Republican discipline and organization. He provides the caveat that he despises them and what they stand for just in case you think he's going Repub-lite.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
64. I'll explain it....you see kissing republican ass has worked so well we
need to continue in that mode. We wouldn't want the bad old repukes mad at us or for them to think we hate them and everything they stand for.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #64
182. Nope.
Try "asking".
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. I missed the link. eom
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
60. How does she miss it?
I fail to see your point. From what I can gather people are pissed at Dean for speaking honestly and not in subtle subscript messages approved by a team of pollsters.

:eyes:

Btw, I've seen a lot of people in threads recently criticizing Dean supporters for playing him as the victim, but it's kind of hard not to come to someone's defense when he gets shat on constantly for absolutely nothing. nada. non-issues. Why do we even need the Republicans when those among us are more than eager to rake a good Democrat through the coals by picking through and serving up any out-of-context scraps the right-wing media throws out?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #60
210. You are dead on...it's just the
usual suspects, anyway.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Apparently...
...you don't miss the point. Newsmax quoting NY Daily who claim to be quoting Dean. But faithful as always, there are those willing to leap and regurgitate RW propaganda, tell us to swallow and demand we enjoy the taste.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I didn't regurgitate anything.
I was responding to the sentiments expressed, which, by the way, are ones which assume Dean actually said this.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Source, please?
:hi:
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. This has to be a joke.
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latteromden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. .
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 10:56 PM by latteromden
.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yeah, it'd be terrible to have a Dem who SLAMs the Radical RW...
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 10:57 PM by ClassWarrior
...the way they deserved to be slammed. What we need is a real firebrand like... ohhh... Evan Bayh???

<sarcasm off>

NGU.


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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. But that's not what he did. n/t
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. OMG lol here's the link where he got the quote,
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/1/30/104654.sht...

Sunday, Jan. 30, 2005 10:44 a.m. EST
Dean: 'I Hate Republicans'

The front-runner in the race to head up the so-called party of compassion and understanding said unabashedly on Saturday that he "hates" the opposition.

"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for," former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean told Democrats gathered at a Manhattan hotel, in quotes picked up by the New York Daily News.
________________________________________________________-
cough

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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. OH NEWSMAX!!!!!
WELL, since it was from NEWSMAX, I TOTALLY believe every word!!

LMAO.

Right. Ok. Carry on.

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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Wow! Two right-wing sources for the same quote in the same article.
I wonder if that's a record?
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
44. It used to be against the rules around here.
But maybe things have changed.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #44
125. The rules changed when there were 35 threads most using
Drudge as a source that Kerry had an affair.

That's the first time I remember rw sources being legitimized on DU.

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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. it's not where I got the quote
I was just watching him say it on C-SPAN...
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. So could you let us know the context? NT
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
66. so you and newsmax agree
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
178. who gives a FUCK
what Newsmax says?

They will find any way possible to make us look bad. We can't walk on eggshells because we are afraid of right wing media.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. Heh, sounds pretty damn good to me.
But without any link or context, I cannot accept this post.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. post 10, it's from a right wing nut site nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
46. The more tactful thing would be to blame the GOP leadership
or the Republican elected officials, while assuring voters he doesn't fault those Republican voters who were lied to by their leaders. It would be best not to alienated every person who is a registered Republican, after all.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. If you actually read the whole quote, that's obviously what he meant:
"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization," the failed presidential hopeful told the crowd at the Roosevelt Hotel, where he and six other candidates spoke at the final DNC forum before the Feb. 12 vote for chairman.
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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
73. Why are you advocating violence?
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 01:17 AM by LiviaOlivia
Dr. Dean certainly doesn't. What are you?
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. sooner or later one of his comments will hit home
America likes one liners. When you get no publicity from the MSM, you have to work 'asymetrically'.
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iwantmycountryback Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. If he even said this
Which is pretty doubtful considering the source, I'm sure he said it in the context of "Democrats can't win by saying "we hate the repubs.." etc.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. He said it.
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. thanks
and the replay isn't up on c-span.org yet, probably will be tomorrow. Surprised nobody mentioned it in the other threads related to the DNC forum.

If Mike Malloy says this or plays songs saying this, no big deal... I don't even disagree with it personally. But if a presidential candidate or DNC Chairman says it, it is not wise and repells those who don't like politicians using the word "hate" when referring to the other party, which is probably 75%-85% of the electorate.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
134. How many times......
.... are you going to post that link? Do you think the NY Daily News will have more credibility if you post the link 20 times?

Sorry, but even though I don't care if he did say it - Newsmax and this source are not really credible.

The right is SCARED SHITLESS of Dean as well they should be.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
26. damnit
i am not going to vote for ANYONE who DOESN'T have the ability to pussyfoot around the issues.

(no offense to our tremendous number of KICKASS du pussy owners, who daily prove that pussyfooting can be a very POSITIVE thing. :-) )
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
36. He said that. He's got my vote.
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. yeeeeaaaaarrrrggggggg
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. I hate them too.
No problem there.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. It's better with more of the quote...
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 11:16 PM by NYCGirl
"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization," the failed presidential hopeful told the crowd at the Roosevelt Hotel, where he and six other candidates spoke at the final DNC forum before the Feb. 12 vote for chairman.

But Dean said the Democrats should not change their beliefs to be "Republican lite."

"We can talk about our faith, but we cannot change our faith," he said, echoing themes he sounded in his presidential bid. "We need to be people of conviction."

Later, he said that what "95% of Americans are really concerned about" is national security. But he said Americans also do not want to sacrifice the nation's values. "They want America to be the moral leader of the world again," he said.


I'd still like to hear more of the context, but I like it...

Edited to add: Even from NYC's other right wing newspaper.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
42. You make a point & I disagree...
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 11:16 PM by pinto
An articulate, vocal and opinionated DNC chair may do well for us.

Not as a Presidential candidate, he's not that and I hope we've put that behind, but as a spokesman.

And a point man...

Consider it.

Thanks.

(ed to remove source comment)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. Good for Him! Even though his "quotes" are taken out of context, I'm
glad to hear someone "outspoken." I have to listen to the RW loudmouthing insanity every day...and have for over ten years. I'm glad to hear Dean speak the truth no matter how he says it. Without other Dems speaking out...we are back where we have been for the last 10 years...in the Wilderness.

Americans are used to Combat now...."Bring It On" speaks to them...they just go into orgasms over it. Dean "unplugged" is great. And, we know they are lying about him...just as they do to Dems who mealy mouth...

What does it matter. Let Dean be Dean...Good for him!
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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
50. So - what is wrong with that?
If you are not concerned or even terrified by the brazenness of the reThugs in regards to how they flout the laws and consititution of the land, then you must have been in deep, deep, and very deep sleep for a long, long time! Dean gets my vote for speaking the truth....
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indigonation Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
51. Consider the source...
But if true, that is no way to attract new friends.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
54. Context: he only hates Republican voters. He admires the "organization."
Good one, Howard. Ever consider general practice?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
55. NO, Dean hates RepubliCONs
The media got it wrong. There's a difference. A Republican believes in the rights of the individual, balanced budgets, no foreign entanglements. A RepubliCON believes in nothing except making money for his special interest groups.....and maintaining power.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
56. That is exactly the kind of language we SHOULD NOT be using!
It immediately shuts down all dialogue. I am really surprised Dean would say that and if true I WITHDRAW MY SUPPORT OF HIS DNC CANDIDACY.

We can't have a DNC chair who speaks that way anywhere, anytime, period.

We need to reframe and educate!
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. agree 100%
I think we tend to forget how much time was spent in late '03 earlier '04 defending some comment from Dean that was getting lambasted in the press or ripped by late night comics. That's what killed Dean, these kind of remarks. It was sort of a death by 1000 cuts for him. He can appeal to the DU wing of the Democratic party, but unfortunately, that isn't going to help us win us any elections on a national basis. I don't want to have my teeth gritted and eyes winced every time I watch him on TV waiting to make another verbal fu**-up. You can make your points effectively without crossing lines, but Dean seems to have no sense of where those lines are.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #56
63. you mean like the dialogue that has lost us the WH the senate and the
congress and will soon lose us several more supreme court judges?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #63
223. No, it's the lack of dialogue and framing that accomplished that n/t
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #56
155. Yes we should bow down to the right wingers

we should apologize for our unamerican resistance to their holy agenda and beg them to go easy on us.


I mean look how well it worked for Kerry.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #155
224. We should NEVER "bow down" to ANYONE n/t
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
181. yeah
heaven help us if we should be an actual political party :eyes:

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #181
227. "I hate you" is not the language of a mature or effective party n/t
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #227
234. neither is
"gee I better run around being scared of what the Republicans are going to think of us."
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #234
237. I agree! n/t
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
200. what dialogue???
there is no dialogue! we're polarized as hell, thanks to Rove. Ask anyone senator or rep, there's hatred in congress. Even folks from opposing sides who used to be freinds are no longer. We tried taking the high road, as k Kerry. And look where we are.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #200
228. You nailed the problem, exactly - we need to reframe to have dialogue
A New England silver-spoon career politician senator is not an effective messenger to the people we need to reach. That's what 04' taught us.

Nothing personal against Kerry, but we need to learn certain political realities and be better tacticians.
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
57. Um, I fail to see what is so wrong with this
especially when taken in context.

"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization....We can talk about our faith, but we cannot change our faith...We need to be people of conviction."

I too hate the RepubliCONS and everything they stand for, yet admire the fact that they are willing to stand for what they believe in....something I wish our party leaders could do more often. What the fuck is there to disagree with??
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. simple, replace "hate" with "disagree with"
and "everything" with "almost everything"... remove the hyperbole and show some tact, leave the flame-throwing to Malloy or we at DU, not the party chair.
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. Why is it such a big deal?
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 01:09 AM by Kipepeo
Is "disagree with" more tactful and PC? Yes.

But does "hate" adequately describe the same thing? Yes.

And do most people say "hate" or "disagree with" and does some joe smith out there really care if he said one over the other?

Personally, I hate the RepubliCONS and everything they stand for. I don't have a problem with the word in the slightest.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #67
70.  yeeeeaaaaarrrrggggggg
a.k.a. the press.
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Do you have anything to contribute?
Because I'd like to hear it.

Just wondering what motivates you. Thanks.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #71
76. Okay, let's take it step by step. See post #74. :D
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #76
83. Funny, but you never seem
to offer an explanation for your opinions or any sources on your accusations...just one-liners usually referring to other posts.

I'm only asking about your purpose for posting in this thread because I realized I've only seen you in threads where you're attacking Dean. Is there some reason? Or are you just bashing a good Democrat without sources or even personal *opinions* but placing a good kerry pic in your sig to make you seem like it's coming from a well-meaning place?

Listen, I have no problems discussing problems with Dean, except when the person I'm talking with doesn't base their one-liners on anything substantial or offer sources when asked (I'm still waiting for them in that other thread in case you forgot). I love to debate as much as the next girl, when there's something to debate about.

So what's your opinion? Go ahead and lay it out.

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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Take my quiz, you'll feel better. Here's the link:
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #84
89. Answer someone's question, you'll feel better!
:)

Anyone's question. Just pick one. And it doesn't have to be this thread either. Go back and look over the previous posts you've made where you left early and just pick one. You'll love it!
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #89
93. What haven't I answered?? n/t
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #93
97. Let me speak your language
go back to post #71 LOL

and when you're done, go back to the Dean thread where you failed to offer a source for him paying bloggers to (your words) "hype him as the anti-war candidate."
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. Okay, you win! I'll work on 'em and get back to ya. Niters! n/t
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. goodnight then
I should be turning in soon too, but DU is so addictive late at night.

:)
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #83
124. Okay, here it is: "My Purpose for Posting in this Thread"
Frankly, I see Dean as a serious threat to Dem victories in '06 and '08. I didn't a month ago, but I had no idea how extensive and persistent his disinformation operation is. I only became aware of it by reading posts and links on DU.

Previously, I'd assumed that Dean was on the level and really DID support Kerry in the GE. No. He was running a back-channel internet campaign determined to take down Kerry at any cost, using every smear, mostly borrowed from Rove's shop, which I don't doubt that he not only "admires" but emulates.

So I want to help everybody who, like me, naively trust the guy see what a snake he is before he gets hold of the DNC and turns it into DFA (Dean for Almighty).
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #124
128. p.s. IMHO, of course! :D n/t
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #124
157. Wow... your back must be sore...


from shoveling so much bullshit in one post.

"Previously, I'd assumed that Dean was on the level and really DID support Kerry in the GE. No. He was running a back-channel internet campaign determined to take down Kerry at any cost, using every smear, mostly borrowed from Rove's shop, which I don't doubt that he not only "admires" but emulates. "

So surly you can provide links to prove this, since as you claim, that's how you learned ab out it.

NOTE: One can always spot baiting BS distortion when individuals opt to present you with their opinionated interpretation of quotes or events, rather than providing any objective links for independent verification.

See how this individual misrepresents Dean's statement about admiring the effectiveness and organization of the republican party, as being a statement of admiration for the individuals in the party leadership?

Should be a clue to their real agenda here.

Oh and by the way... Kerry lost because he lacked the guts or the will to stand up and defend himself against his frat brother. He stuck to the pollsters scripts and tucked his spine away in the closet, then gave up before the votes were even counted.



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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
201. but I don't feel desagreeable
I feel sheer malice towards the republican party at this point. They put the mafia to shame, and that is not hyperbole. We've been lied to, looted and innocents are dying everyday at the hand of this nation, of this president we have. Hatred ie exactly what I feel and I am happy to hear a leader express my sentiment. Finally, real resonance!
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DFLforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
65. This is the kind of post that makes me sometimes think of DU as a joke!
A thread built on one-half of a compound sentence. Worthy of freeperville or... a poorly concealed agenda.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. The context makes it worse. He hates GOP voters and admires the leaders.
What was he smoking?
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. No, what are YOU smoking?
LOL

He hates what the party stands for but admires their resolve when it comes to standing for what they believe in and organizing around it....were you even *reading* the same sentence?

:)
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. Here's the full quote:
"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization."

Their "discipline" and "organization" applies to their party leadership, and that's Rove, Cheney, and their wingnut shocktroops.

Why the hell would Dean say that, even if he really admires them, which he probably does?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #74
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. As far as I'm concerned they are. And I'm sure not running a pic of Chimp
and Cheney! :D
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #74
85. Are you purposefully not getting this?
Or is it truthful?

He obviously does not mean 'i hate the republicans and everything they stand for but goddamn i love me some cheney and karl rove, man! '

He means he loves their organizational skills, and more importantly, their commitment to their beliefs. Something I agree with wholeheartedly. I despise the new-Republicans and their beliefs but I have to admire the way they carry out their goals. Michael Moore (or was it Carville?) made a joke along the same lines in one of their books about how conservatives have everything organized and have a key holder by the door while liberals can't even find their keys to their crappy car in the morning. ;)
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. LOL. That's probably what he meant, sure, but alas, it isn't what he said!
:D
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Kipepeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #90
96. Thats exactly what he said
or what part of organization and discipline confuse you? I've explained them as best I can. Maybe you could try websters but it doesn't include the passion. :)
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #74
140. Well, the republicans have been kicking our asses soundly
for the last three national election cycles. I think that has something to do with their "discipline and their organization"

guh.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #74
159. Don't let yourself get baited people...


It is clear to anybody with a reading comprehension skill above around 2nd grade that Dean, while hating what the republican party stands for, was saying he admires the discipline and organization of the republican party... meaning the effectiveness with which they motivate their voters/get their message out/raise money/stay on message/etc.

The republican party apparatus is incredibly effective... and that is something to be admired and modeled if we are going to beat them at their own game.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #65
111. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
72. LMAO. So does most of DU. So do most Democrats these days
so Dean is speaking for the majority.

WTF is wrong with that?

People want tact? TACT??! THERE IS NO TACT POSSIBLE when we are dealing with this kind of shit:
http://www.undermars.com/gallery54.html
http://www.undermars.com/gallery53.html

NONE. SCREW THAT!

We. are. at. war. And we are at war with the Republicans and their current agenda.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. I like the way you think Tinoire :-)
I couldn't agree more. Kudos! :yourock:

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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. Yeah
The majority of the minority. It's definitely a good idea to declare our hatred, as a party, for those who aren't currently in our party.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #77
98. And they don't fucking hate the average American worker???
The current Republicans are nothing but cheap labor, de-regulate everything corporate shills. They hate the fact that there's even a minimum wage. This is war and it should be treated as such.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #98
104. So that's the strategy?
Scream at these people until they realize how dumb they are?

Good strategy. Please join the Green Party. Addition by subtraction
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. No, not screaming, but opposition.
The only voices I'm hearing in opposition to Bush are Byrd, Boxer, and Kennedy. Ever other senator has rolled over and died on us.

We need to reach out to the blue collar base. Dump gun control as an issue, link enviromentalism to outdoor sports such as hunting, fishing, hiking, and camping. Additionally, expose the fact that Republicans have consistently opposed all advances in worker's rights, better wages, and workplace and medical tort protection. Explain to the workers that tort reform means they are limited in their ability to recover if they are disabled due to someone else's wrongdoings.

We are not embracing bread-and-butter issues. Dean was right: appeal to the blue collar worker in the pick up and if we win them, we're on the way to winning elections.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. We don't need Dean to do that
and he would hurt our ability to fight on those issues. I don't want to bash him, because I believe that he wants to fight on those issues, but he has shown himself incapable of maintaing an appealing image to the people. He would overshadow many issues because he can't control himself. We don't need that.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #77
203. but ARE we the minority??
was the elction legitimate?? dean made that video with bev harris afterall. Think maybe he knows what we know??
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. he would be speaking for the party as chair
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 01:20 AM by TheWebHead
and I guarantee if you get every Democratic senator on television and asked if they agree with Dean's statement, they'd all say "no" (even Kennedy and Byrd), and likewise for 95% of the house... That's not a limb the party chairman is supposed to be going out on.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Yeah, folks like Tom Delay and "Hello Kitty" Frist are such Gentleman
No way.

Fight fire with fire.

Go Howard Dean!
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. We're not fighting their leadership
We're fighting FOR their constituents. Generally it's not a good idea to "hate" the people that we want to consider our positions.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #82
87. This "kiss a**" pink tutu play nice while they slander us from * on down
is NOT working. It's time to grow a spine. Frankly I don't want moderate republicans in our party and mucking up the message. How about those of you who wish to "play nice" just, for once, consider keeping your criticisms to yourselves, step out of OUR way and let us fight?
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #87
94. Wow, you've lost it
The party never has been the party of the far left. Never. The party has also never been the party of idiots who run their mouth off (DEAN). You can fight tough and not be a moron.

How about our representatives fight the Republicans on Social Security, tax cuts, the deficit, foreign policy, etc.

Saying that we "hate" them is not helpful. It only detracts from our fight on the important issues (which does have to become considerably tougher).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #94
109. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #109
113. Did I claim one Republican position?
No, I said we should fight for Democratic issues. Only that we shouldn't have a man incapable of controlling himself guiding our message.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #113
119. You just don't give up, do you? My point: You HATE Dean and it shows.
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Zensea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #94
130. Harry Truman was a democrat
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 08:28 AM by Zensea
He ran his mouth off now and then.

http://www.rose.edu/EOCRHC/Oral-Steed-Truman.htm

"Lasalier: President Truman didnt care much for music critics, and, as you say, he sometimes lacked a little bit of tact when he addressed individuals or groups and you had made reference to a story that his wife and daughter would like to tell on him.

Steed: Well, the most commonly repeated Truman story all the time that he was in Washington dealt with the word manure. And, of course, Truman was very positive and sometimes he wanted extra emphasis so hed use that word. And so, some of the ladies who knew Mrs. Truman real well got her off and said, you know, hes president now and you ought to tell him to quit using that word. And she said, I wouldnt dare; it took me 10 years to get him to use that word instead of something worse! He kept on using the word whenever he felt strongly about something. He was so positive, though, that I think one of the strangest things - most unusual things that I kept hearing after he was out of the presidency was that guys would say, you know, I used to hate old Truman, Id get so mad at him. But I wish I had him back. He was the last president I know that when I was mad I knew why I was mad.

"Steed: I think that the people think that politicians will grab any opportunity to get a higher office. Well, of course, you know, Harry Truman tried every way in the world to avoid being made the vice-presidential nominee. President Roosevelt was very determined to recruit him. You see, Wallace had made a flop of being vice-president and the president wanted to get rid of him, but he had to find somebody to put in his place. Truman was the chairman of the committee that was exposing graft and cheating with war contracts and becoming quite a nationally popular man because he had saved the taxpayers lots of money, and putting rascals out of commission. So no matter how hard they tried, he wouldnt even agree to get on the telephone and talk to Roosevelt about it. And I think that the best thing Ive ever read about that particular incident is in the book his daughter wrote about him. If you dont mind, Ill just read a little of what she wrote about it:

Bob Hannigan, who led the move to draft Truman, finally lured Truman into his room so he could arrange for Truman to talk personally to the president. Although Truman refused, Hannigan got the president on the phone anyhow. Roosevelts voice came over loud and clear. Bob, have you got that fellow lined up yet? Roosevelt asked. No, Mr. President, Hannigan said, hes the contrariest Missouri mule Ive ever dealt with. Roosevelt replied, well, you tell him if he wants to break up the Democratic Party in the middle of a war, thats his responsibility. Hearing this, Truman said, well, if thats the situation, I guess Ill have to say yes, but why in the hell didnt he tell me that in the first place.

So, you see, he was not an ambitious fellow. I wondered what he would have thought if he had had any vision at all of what he was getting into when he became vice president, because up to that time, you know, vice presidents hadnt been very important. "
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #94
138. I know people who wouldn't say "shit" even if they had a mouthful
Thank God for people willing to say shit when we are all choking on it.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #138
211. Well put, Cheswick!
I can't believe all this prissy nitpicking on one of our hardest working for Democracy, Dems..

Our whole Democracy is crumbling down around us and these guys are worried about what Dean is saying out of context!

Chicken little..anyone?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #82
95. We are? I'm not fighting for their constituents. Don't want them around/
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 01:35 AM by Tinoire
Don't want anything to do with their constituents!

The people I'm fighting for are the poor, the too-discouraged-to-vote-because-neither-party-cares-about-the-people, the Progressive Independents, the Greens, etc.

In no way do I want their consituents in my party.

What do you propose we give up to attract them? Abortion rights? Gay rights? Civil Liberties? It's not even as if our record on those issues is that hot. Why would you want to dilute it even more?

Oh no no no. If that's the whole reasoning behind being nice and tactful, I'm going to fire off a letter to Dean suggesting some even more colorful sentences he can use. This is war. Hundreds of thousands are out of work and it's getting worse everyday.

For once there needs to be a very clear line drawn because this is war not a tea party.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #95
102. Oh, I didn't realize
You've found a way to get poor people to vote. Ok. Everything's just peachy then. Dean can be an idiot all he wants.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #102
115. Good.
I'll stick with Dr Dean and inspiring people to realize that they can take their country back from the wealthy and from the corporations.


You stick with the :boring: DLC and the :boring: Conservative Dems. Dr. Dean is the kiss of death for their cohabitation at our expense.

Here's the relevant DFA logo. As I said he's speaking for us and we. are. pissed.



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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #115
204. yeah mon! n/t
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #82
160. Bullshit.... you need to look at the demographics.

We are not going to win by trying to get republicans voters, not really... not at this point.

We are only going to win by reaching out to the vast disheartened moderate/liberal majority that has given up and stopped voting because the dems are too spineless to stand up and fight for them.

You think we should keep drifting to the right trying to win over 5 or 6 or 7 percent of the republicans, while we end up losing as much or more from our core because the party is becoming republican-lite.

And I'll let you in on a little secret... a lot of bush voters hate Bush too. But they vote for him because they would rather have a leader they hate, but perceive as strong, than one the like and perceive as a weak willed capitulating little pussy.

As long as our party is run by those afraid to stand up and fight for fear of offending someone, we will continue to lose.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #78
88. That's precisely why I want Dean in that position
I'm sick of the bull-shit no-representation we get from those politicians you're referring to. It's time to clean house and start getting something for our taxation.

Your model is backwards. Every single one of those people up there should be speaking for us. They're not up there for themselves. They're up there for us, as representatives of the people who vote for them- and that's us.

This is why a Dean chairmanship strikes fear into their cowardly hearts- it would put an end to the charade that we're ok with the status quo and that those bozos up there have been representing us with their Vichy cohabitation.

I don't love Dean. I'm not blinded by love for him but he's the closest we have who speaks for us. None of the others presenting themselves speak for me, especially not that ridiculous Donny Fowler who I just listened to on C-SPAN acting as a dauphin requesting himself for his crown.

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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #88
205. exactly!
exactly exactly exactly!
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #72
108. Exactly!
Why people want to keep trying the same spineless bullshit is beyond me. Folks, we need to be every bit as nasty and agressive as the Republicans, because if you haven't noticed, they're eating us alive.

The time for making nice has long since expired.
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #72
118. Agreed
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #72
131. I say the exact same thing every single day -
I hate them and I'm glad Dean said it.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #72
202. circle gets the square.
people are dying. the treasury is looted. our reputation is trashed. countries are trying to get "nucular" left and right, and now he's after the ss for his friends on wall street. how much longer are we going to bend over and take it in the ass? (apolgies for the vulgarity, but that's exactly what's happening.)
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mahina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
86. Wish I didn't agree with him but I hate them too...
Never hated anybody before. It started with the fundie end of the world so le's pollute it and cut down all the trees crowd. I do hate them and everything they stand for and I do love Howard Dean and EVERYTHING he stands for including speaking from the heart and telling the American people the truth.

i watched his DVD this weekend before giving it to my delegates (Those are the folks that are going to make the decision, if you care and don't know them now;s the time to meet them and do what you can...) That vid made my heart sing and made me cry when I thought I was pau crying Nov 3

Come on Howard tell it like it is and bring us home to America.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
91. Oh for fuck's sake!!
If everyone is so goddamned pissed that Dr. Dean is pissed, why not let either Alan fucking Colmes or Tom Daschle lead the DNC? That way, no one, not even Republicans, will be upset and we can be as accomodating as the other side wants.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #91
99. Lol. And roll over all day acceding to their demands. n/t
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #91
100. I think Obama has proved you can have passion
and provide inspiration to the base without employing "hate"... there is an in-between of Dean and a wet noodle like Colmes that can inspire the base while not repelling the moderates in the process.
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #91
112. Even better...
...let's just let Terry McAullife keep running things. After all, he's done such a great job over the last four years. Sure, we're in the worst shape we've been in for decades, but hey, he sure did raise a lot of money!
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #91
196. Well just fuck that accommodation rifraf idea; not in the mood to accomo
date or mandate either!
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #91
207. LOL
I thought I was the only one who used that phrase "oh for fuck's sake!"
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #91
212. And they can roll over for breakfast,
lunch, and dinner!
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
92. Oh, dear, oh MY
honesty! Can't have that, can we?

Who here on this board DOESN'T feel that way? Right now, I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, too.

Name something to like about this party, right here, right now, today.
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Vadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
106. Howard, I'm with you!!!!! Even though my brother is a repub.......
My bro is misguided; he hates politics and he does not know of what he votes for. He turns political discussionas totally off! You know, I think it is a matter of location! I live in the DC area; my husband and I are so much involved in politics, due to working in the Congresssional area. My brother lives down in the NewportNews area. He hates politics.



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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
110. Hell yeah! Sing it, Dean. nt
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
114. Is playing nice working?
The Republicans keep winning, their message is dominating, and do they try to appease Democrats? Hell no! Meanwhile, we let them frame everything, we try not to tip the apple cart and say anything that would contradict their worldview, all while getting reamed by them.

THIS is exactly what we need, and people do respond to it. I think the alternative's track record pretty much speaks for itself.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #114
116. This is a war, folks. We need to start acting like it. nt
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
117. I'm certain it was taken out of context, but it was a poor choice of words
the right wing press is just waiting for ANYTHING to pounce on him about, and Howard gave it to them. You can just tell by the air that is given off by "journalists" in the major media. They still can't stop refering to "the scream", and Dean's "loose jaw".

Anyway, I'm a Dean supporter, and if for anything else, if it gets major play, it will demonstrate how MUCH division is in the U.S.. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Let them come to us for a change.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #117
120. I'm just curious ...
I'm just guessing that "the memo" for the right wing this evening may have included the following catch phrases: far left; poor choice of words; out of control; I love him and support him BUT he made a mistake.

Gee, if you folks really are what you claim to be (Dean Supporters), then you've got an unproductive way of showing it.

What are we doing here, herding cats? <damn I hate that term! LOL>
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
121. video link
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wakemewhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
122. So Cheney can say GFY on the Senate floor and feel proud
But Dean says "hate" and he's crucified?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #122
213. Yeah, the dems are a
picky bunch!
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
123. Dean is Dean
None of the guys running for DNC chair are perfect.

Dean is a political pitbull. He's blunt, plainspoken and calls a spade a spade. Alot of people love that about him. Other people who prefer a more nuanced approach, find him tactless. What I'd like to know is which of the other candidates for office--not some platonic DNC chair but the guys actually running--brings the assets to the job that Dean brings.

We've done nuance for the past eight years or so and where has it gotten us? The Democrats need a blast of energy and Dean, of the people running, is the only one who can supply it.




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RogueTrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
126. He has been saying this quite a bit
I would guess that Those-Who-Do-Not-Want-Dean-As-Chair have decided this is their money quote. Endorsments from voting members will be coming thick and fast, now that the regional caucuses are over; Obviously The Powers That Would Like To Be are hoping to sway some minds away from the Good Doctor.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
127. If only the rest of them would come out and say it
rather than attempting to appear bi-partisan with this criminal junta.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
129. Dean must be bushed.
I'm sort of disappointed in him. That's provoking hatred, even though I don't think he meant to. Dean, please don't become the Democratic version of Ann Coulter. I'd rather leave the hate provoking to the conservatives.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
132. This is an appropriate response
to a Republican leadership that wants to put progressives and liberals in concentration camps.

(Note: the GOP leadership isn't the friendly faces they put up for public consumption. It's the people crafting the message & the people putting up the money.)
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
133. Dean rolling of the tracks again?
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 08:44 AM by zulchzulu
Dean said:

"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization."

...when he should have said:

"Many Americans are alarmed at what many right-wing Republicans stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization."

For a leadership role, he does indeed need to use a bit more tact. This kind of quote coming from Dean reminds me of reports from Dean staffers during his primary campaign that would cringe as he would roll off the tracks with occasional statements where he spoke before thinking.

Passion is one thing, but knowing how the media will tear a sentence out of your transcript and make it a million dollar campaign is another.

This kind of statement should be relegated to a DFA internal staff meeting off the record, not a wide open press session with hungry press staff ready to pounce.

Now we have the right-wing media with a new parroting talking point saying that Dean "hates Republicans".

Nice job, Howard.

:argh:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #133
214. Tough Shit!
Dean doesn't say what you would have him say..he says what he wants to..fucking fascist media be damned.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #214
222. OK...then why doesn't Dean just flip the bird at the cameras and moon them
Hey, he would be expressing himself.

It's like a drummer for a heavy metal band showing up at the set with his 30 drum pieces to play drums to a guy with a pan flute and another on ukelele.

:nuke:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #222
231. NO it isn't...you're going off
the deep end, again!
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
136. Dean just can't seem to please the Bush enablers...
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 09:13 AM by Q
...and he shouldn't even try.

What the 'don't say anything to offend the Neocons' crowd don't seem to understand is that Bush is this generation's Hitler (or Stalin, if Hitler is offensive). Those who follow and support him can be rightfully compared to fascists.

What are the 'right words' to describe the politics of an opposition that wants to destroy America's infrastructure, eliminate civil liberties and wage perpetual war in the name of 9-11? They ARE fascists and to continue to treat them with kid gloves will only embolden them to advance their 'cause'.

It might be true that some Republicans don't understand that they're supporting fascism or a virtual dictator who only pretends to honor freedom and democracy. But that doesn't mean we should coddle them or pander to their agenda.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #136
215. Lovely Q!
Just Lovely! I so proud that Dean Can't please the damn "bush enablers"!
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
137. I stand by Dean
I will trade off one possibly poorly constructed statement erring on the side of passion for ten poorly constructed statements erring on the side of passivity, any day, any year.

The Republicans are the ones sending out mass mailings in West Virginia saying that Democrats want to ban the Bible.

Howard Dean is flesh and blood and we need more not less of that in our Party. The Democratic Party rose to power through the untiring efforts of blunt talking Union members, small family farmers, and oppressed minorities of every color. Every once in a while it is healthy to be reminded that we are in a real fight for America and that we face opponents with a very different vision of what their ideal American society looks like.

Was the comment over the top for a non closed setting? Yes, probably it was, but most everyone gets exactly where Dean is coming from. Sure his enemies (and ours) may make Tsk Tsk noises but it is only the hypocritical charade of false indignation. Fear of that should never force us to fear expressing who we really are and what we really believe. When you get right down to it, less than 1% of all DUers could honestly say that they "hate all Republicans." Of course Howard Dean wasn't being literal.

We know what it means when someone says something like that, and the American people are not as stupid as media spinners make them out to be. The public will turn against anyone who they come to believe is slick talking and mealy mouthed, but they can relate to someone who isn't afraid to openly express real feelings, because that is a character trait most Americans value. Let the Republicans try to spin Dean's comments, they are in damage control when they do, because for every one he makes that they can bruise him over, there are 9 other punches that they will be reeling from.

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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
139. well, I have to completely agree with him...don't you?
I also hate republicans and everything they stand for.

guess that makes me lacking in tact, but heavy on common sense.
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RunningFromCongress Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
141. I agree with him...so I can't really throw stones
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 09:32 AM by RunningFromCongress
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
142. Indeed, this was taken out of context....what a bunch of crap.
The beginning of the sentence was edited out....if you watch the clip you'll see that he began the quote with "I want to do what the republicans do" The quote was about the discipline and organization that the republican party has. The "I hate the republicans and everything they stand for" was a caveat.


I hate the republicans and everything they stand for too. I will support any democrat who has the balls to stand up and say that.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
143. Nevermind what I said earlier. I agree with him. (nt)
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
144. Thanks for not posting the whole quotation
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 09:51 AM by WI_DEM
which goes on to say, "but I admire their discipline and their organization." It is clear that he is talking about the party apparatus not the rank and file.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. and the citations (both of them) take this out of context....Read this:
"I want to do what the republicans do....I hate the republicans and everything they stand for....but I admire their discipline and their organization."

Howard Dean

he's saying we need discipline and organization, but not to abandon our values as democrats.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #145
153. Well clearly that's just CRAZY....


"he's saying we need discipline and organization, but not to abandon our values as democrats."


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Democrat Dragon Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #145
190. I actually agree with this
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 08:41 PM by Democrat Dragon
"I want to do what the republicans do....I hate the republicans and everything they stand for....but I admire their discipline and their organization."

I wonder if Dean has recently read The Art of War by Sun Tzu. I have posted this point many times here only be ridiculed. It is clear why dur presstitutes attacked Dean during teh primaries, the Repukes know he is threat to the Nazi movement. KKKarl Rove knows that the only thing he can't handle is his own type of attacks.

YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHHH! GO DEAN!
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #190
217. Very interesting!
Thanks for your post!
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
146. My Two Cents....
I wouldn't vote for a Republican if you put a gun behind my ear....


Ever see the movie "Man On Fire" where Denzel Washington's character sticks a fuse up a guy's rectum and tells him if it will go off if he doesn't talk...


If I was in the same position but the fuse would go off for not voting Republican I would still not vote Republican.


As you can see I share Dr. Dean's contempt for the party but I question the wisdom of making the statement; most Meriikans ain't the jihad type...


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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
147. Guys, he's already survived the Dean Scream and bloggergate.
He might survive this. But don't get your hopes up.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #147
148. Seems to me where you would be looking to kick him
I might be seeing something worthwhile.

In other words, maybe we should be stating in no uncertain terms, that we hate what the Republicans stand for and what has happened to us under their dominance.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #148
149. Look, I laid out my opinion in post #124. And what you said in your post
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 10:08 AM by marcologico


is exactly what Dean SHOULD have said!!
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
150. The shift of the Republican party away from it's traditional moorings
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 10:32 AM by Tom Rinaldo
That has to become an issue we play on. Republicans perfected that one years ago. "Oh we admire Truman and Kennedy, that's when Democrats were still Democrats, not radical Liberals. The Democratic Party abandoned its members, that's why Democrats are abandoning the Democratic Party."

Today's Republican Party is ripe for that type of attack. but most Democratic leaders are afraid to go anywhere near it. Dean won't be.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
151. I can't say
I really disagree with him, but "hate" is a strong word to use, that too for someone vying for a leadership position.

That said, he's still the best choice for chair. The other choices are much worse. Atleast Dean seems to understand that this war was based on a lie.

Hopefully if and when he's chair, he'll use more tact.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
152. Checked the link... you edited the quote.

"I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization,"

You changed the comma to a period and presented it without the backhalf of the statement that was quoted in the story at the link you gave.

If Dean's remarks are so "tactically stupid" then why the need to edit them out of context?



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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #152
156. Yeah, what the hell
I heard it too and I didn't flinch. It wasn't any different than what the rest were up there making a stand about.

It does seem like the original poster is trawling the bottom for a piece to use.

Personally, I think it would be great if they all worked together as a panel with an array of responsibilites doled out.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
158. Wars based on lies are worthy of hate. I agree. n/t
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 11:06 AM by Dr Fate
n/t
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wishlist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #158
163. Choice of words is a big mistake- plays right into hands of RWingers
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 11:58 AM by wishlist
If Dems want to gain grassroots support and not be marginalized, leading Dems cannot afford to use such sweeping emotional inflammatory language that can be exploited by the RW and the media to successfully label Dems as "angry hateful over-the-top leftwingers". Even though I share his sentiments, I do not approve of Dean's choice of words. Making such an overly broad blanket public statement of hate towards all Repubs is not smart politics and does not put him (or Dems in general) in a favorable light.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #163
172. Did Kerry's "choice of words" prevent him from being Swiftboated?
The GOP/media will smear us no matter what our "choice of words" is- so we may as well be blunt.

I hate Republican policies.
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MisterLiberal Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
161. Good cop, bad cop
We have to have both. Dean is the bad cop; Hillary is the good cop.

Dean tells the hard truth, Hillary dresses it up for the corn jerkers.

They're both still cops, though.
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Used and Abused Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
162. I'm shocked at this comment
As a Dean supporter, I'm quite shocked. I don't "hate" anybody. Am I sick and f*cking tired of them? Yes. Do they disgust me? Yes. But hate is such a strong word, and definitely not a word that should be used by our potential party head.
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #162
164. Go for it
That's why I support Dean for DNC. We need a STRONG voice not someone who is pacifying the press or the Repukes. By creating controversy he gets a chance to explain his "why's". I agree with his strategy whole heartedly. By gosh someone who dares tell the truth, unlike the media who has played that pretend scream forever. Dean as the DNC brings many into the fold and let's the repukes know that we do not fear them. Get him together with Boxer. It's ok to let a puke like Delay get away with all kinds of shit and no one says a word, I like the fact that Dean will call it as he sees it. Maybe more pukes will be outed for their lies.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
165. Dean saying he hates something. What a surprise!
:eyes:
You can't sustain a movement on anger. It doesn't work forever.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. "can't sustain a movement on anger"
What's sustaining the right wing then? I was under the impression that it was indignation and a media echo chamber feeding that.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #165
167. And you can not derail a movement...

simply by repeating the same tired anti-dean meme over and over.

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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #165
168. Coming from you, that's hilarious.
Seeing as you hate Dean far more than he hates the 'Pukes. (Though I think Marcus has far outdone you in that competition)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #168
218. I was just going to ask..
what sustains his hate for Dean?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
169. Given the accuracy of certain media, I'll wait to hear from Dean on this
one.

"Dean admires Republicans for their discipline and organization" could just as easilly have been your flame bait dontcha think?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #169
219. Brava!
:hi:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #219
233. Hola!
:hug: :hi:
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moggie12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
170. Here's a Republican who's truly worthy of "hate":
Please forgive this brief commercial interruption.

Joe Scarborough is the kind of Republican I truly do hate: He uses his bully pulpit on MSNBC to spread lies about Democrats.

Please take a minute and send him an e-mail excoriating him for the latest pack of lies he just hurled at Wesley Clark (he took a low shot at Kennedy and Madeline Albright, too):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


WebHead: Sorry if I interrupted your thread -- I don't blame Dean for using the word "hate" -- it fits the kind of garbage people like Scarborough do day after day, week after week. The Republicans I truly hate are the ones who scurrilously manipulate the media and public opinion.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
171. The feeling is mutual
Prominent right-wingers can call democrats everything from traitors, pansies, to terrorists, without reproach. I'm sure what we need is someone who will try to appease them and change the error of their ways.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #171
173. They even impeached our President- and smeared Kerry's record...
nt
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #171
220. Girley Men!
Bleeding Hearts!
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
174. CNN's 'Inside Politics' just played the "I hate the republicans" clip
but only as a show intro to "can anything stop Dean..." or something to that effect.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #174
226. Gee...what a frickin' surprise
It looks like Dean is blowing a gasket again like he did in Iowa last year. It appears the man sees himself ahead in the "polls" and either thinks it's time to push the BlowUp button or really doesn't want to gig and is trying to self-destruct.

Perhaps it's good this stupidity came out now and not later.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
175. I also hate the republicans and everything they have become.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
176. Me too. Next?
He'd make a great DNC Chair.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
177. Strategic Speaking (aka. "Framing the Debate") vs. Emotional Resonance
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 05:11 PM by ClarkUSA
I understand perfectly what both sides have been debating/arguing here
and it boils down to long-range strategic speaking in framing the debate
versus the emotional satisfaction of Dean's statement.

I wish he had referred to the GOP instead of using the word Republicans because it's the Party apparatus that he was really referring to - not the guy or woman on the street in red-state Iowa or usually red NH - but blanketing all Republican voters everywhere with "hate" is a slam to everyone we know who is a Republican, including those who did not vote for Bush (or those who are true conservatives who may oppose Bush's neocon policies).

--27% of voters are Democrats, 27% are Republicans, the middle is up for grabs but how do we get their votes?

--I'd be interested as to how all the Republicans for Dean groups as well as other "Republicans for" other candidates feel about being hated by Dean?

--How would it affect non-DU Democrats if they read or heard or saw Ken Mehlman said, "I hate Democrats and everything they stand for...?"

--I'm also curious as to what George Lakoff thinks of Dean's framing. I wish he were a DU member.

--What happens when you carry this message to Democratic candidates running in red or purple states or red or purple counties where they have to appeal to both parties' voters in order to win a majority of votes? This is exactly what Southern and other Dems are leery of in Dean.

Strategically, "hate" is not the smartest choice of words.

Emotionally, it's red meat for Democrats gathered at a regional meeting in NYC (I doubt he would have made this comment at the Southern or Western regional meeting).












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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
180. the dems have been losing ground since 1992 - so doing
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 04:36 PM by 28erl
something different is better than the insanity of doing the same thing and getting the same results - he at least has candor and the 'balls' to talk - the rest of them - cower like children of the
alcoholic(* in the WH)

I am sorry only 13 dems voted against * lover for sec of state - that makes only 13 viable dems in congress who are willing to stand up against torture and stand for truth

Dean is willing to stand up for truth
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
183. Here:


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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #183
221. Can you believe we live
in these Orwellian times? And that it's not just the repukes who want to stop Dean but also ..so called Dems?
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #221
232. It's just hard for me to believe that this much vitriol has come
out on DU about the DNC chair race.

Change is never easy, I guess. ;-)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #232
239. From the usual suspects..but
it's really encouraging to see how many DUers want Dean for the Chair who were less than enthusiastic about him during the primaries.

It's the same with me regarding Kerry..I wasn't too gung ho to say the least and in the end I was going to rallies and looking at all the good stuff he did.
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sw04ca Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
184. This whole thing is ugly...
... because it makes Dean come off more and more like an Ann Coulter on the left. The polarization we're seeing right now is absolutely amazing. I mean, people used to rant at the opposition during Reagan's day, but not with the sustained anger that the Democrats and Republicans have aimed at each other recently. Both sides yearn to invoke the spirit of 'Joltin' Joe' McCarthy, and demonize each other constantly, over everything.

I mean, George McGovern was a fringe candidate, and not even he came right out and said "I hate everyone who doesn't think like me." Sure, the Republicans do it too, but not the sort of thing I'd like to see from a man who says he wants to shape the Democratic party in the years ahead.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
185. ME TOO! ME TOO! Thanks Dr. Dean for speaking the rest of our mamby
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 07:07 PM by MrsGrumpy
pamby minds for us. We hate them here, amongst ourselves, but dare not speak it in public. Musn't do that. It wouldn't be proper. :eyes:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #185
225. All kinds of People and some of us
just love to hear the truth spoken out loud to show that we have no Fear!!

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
186. Finally. Someone to tell the TRUTH for a change!
So what was wrong with that statement?

I don't see how any true Democrat can find fault with those words.

About time somebody said it!

Way to go Howard!
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
188. Dean, Dean, Dean, Baby...come on puddin' you can't go around sayin
stuff like that.

Some Rethugs are going to be needed to help us win this battle. You sayin stuff like this ain't gonna help the situation. Come on Baby, pull it together.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
189. one thing the republicans have going for them
is that they generally don't sit around nit-picking each other words. Unless, of course, you're Arlen Specter ;-)

i want some representation with backbone, for a change.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
191. Tact is SO overrated
I mean, if tact has gotten us Conaliar Rice and Scumsfeld and the rest of the band of merry criminals, then hey I say call them the criminals they are.

The fact that it cheeses off the complicit in the downfall of Democracy pundits et all is just a bonus.

Let's try rude, it can't be much worse than the false PC bullshit I see.

Rice is a liar. Rumsfeld is rotten. Bush didn't win the election fair and square. Sorry if that hurts their itty bitty feelings.

Dean got busted for enthusiasm, passion and the ~horror~ of yelling. Whatever. No matter what we do, (like Kerry actually getting the most votes-check out the election fraud forum for the latest statistical showing to prove it's a lie) we seem to be fucked. Might as well enjoy the thrill of telling it like it is.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #191
229. Some would have Dean say...
He doesn't LIKE anything the republicans stand for!

What if he would have said "FASCISTS"? Quell HOrrororrrrr!!!
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
192. I don't see a problem.
Webhead.

I guess the DNC chair is supposed to be in love with an enemy that is willing to rig and steal elections. You've obviously got latent republican tendencies to want the dems to say only popular things regardless of the truth. Check your ethics.

Gyre
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #192
193. you can make a point without resorting to this rhetoric
replace "hate" with "disagree" and "everything" with "nearly everything" and on the other quote remove "evil" and you make the same points without allowing your opposition to twist and disregard the entire message, regardless how effective it was.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
195. Sounds like a good motto for the Democratic party
Works for me - short, sweet, and the truth.

And Democrats have GOT to stop being afraid of 'insulting people'. After the Smear Boat Liars, who insulted every single veteran, and the purple bandage assholes, who insulted every one who ever got a purple heart, we should learn: there's no way that you alienate voters by being mean. They like it.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #195
197. We shouldn't give a hellsdamn who we insult! They are fucking the world!
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #197
216. You got it!
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
198. But he speaks for everyone one of us,
no?

I mean, C'mon. If you believe that bush stole the election (and don't think he doesn't, he made that damn video with Bev Harris so he knows it's stolen too), and that we are the real majority, then he definitely knows how the majority feels.

I hate them also, they are insidious as all get out. I refuse to be politically correct here because political correctness got us nowhere and political incorrectness got Bush back in the white house.

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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
199. Screw the media, what favors have they ever done for us anyway??
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candy331 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #199
208.  Dean sure manages to keep himself in the "liberal media"
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 11:06 PM by candy331
doesn't he? What a catch, the media seems to love him, can't get enough of him. Boy if he tones down he will be a goner just as they planned on after the scream. A fighter fights to fight another day a loser loses and is no longer in play. I wonder what would have been said if Dean had said I love the Republicans?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #208
230. Oh yeah...the "liberal" media loved the scream
Yep...what entertainment.

It's like watching a big fat frog get tossed into a pool of very hungry piranhas. Aw...look...isn't the froggie cute.... yyyeaaaaaaaaarrrrghhhhh...bubble...bubble...bubble.....

Silence.
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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
206. that's my boy!
god i hope he runs for president again!
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candy331 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #206
209. Me too newsguyatl ! n/t
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
235. I think this incident proves Dean is not ready to be DNC Chair...
His comment was junior league dumbass bullshit.

He can be a leader with DFA (which I actively participate in) and say that kind of stuff at some rally to get some cheap juvenile screams of approval.

But to be at the highly visible event where he knows all of his actions and mannerisms are being examined and he comes out sounding like some Junior High debate team flunkie is not only politically stupid, it sends warning signs that he will always be the off-the-cuff, off-the-mark and in utter need of having someone clean up after his gaffes.

Some here think it's cool he says that kind of shit, but it only hurts the cause. A little political saavy goes a long way vs. a hot-headed flop of a statement.

Thanks to Dean's little quote, his staff now has to defend him from himself....again....this shit must get stale.

When he goes into Gaffe Mode, Dean also plays right into the Right Wing Media's hands with comments like that and furthur gives them ammo to frame the message that he (and the Democrats) are hateful, spiteful and _________________*.

* Fill in the blank with new Hannityism or Ditto King talking point
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #235
238. I have a feeling he just gave the Pelosis of the world the excuse they
needed to say "sorry my wonderful Deaniac constituents, I'd love to obey your ten frickin' billion threaten-filled phone calls and emails but my hands are tied."

And frankly that's a relief.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #238
241. I fear that the train wreck is yet to happen
Perhaps this was just a little notice before The Big Gaffe. Get the cameras loaded, fellas...we have a live one here.

These next couple of weeks are going to be "interesting".
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #241
242. standing by! :D
n/t
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #235
240. there's this rewriting of history
Edited on Tue Feb-01-05 12:31 AM by TheWebHead
that somehow thinks Dean lost everything on the scream, and that otherwise he'd have wrapped up the nomination. Truth is, he had a huge lead in Iowa and managed to blow it and lose big, not only to Kerry, but Edwards also, by committing a series of verbal miscues that in total gave voters a bad feeling about backing him. And now a year later, we've forgot about how damaging Dean's mouth was and are set to make him our de-facto party spokesperson. I might be okay with it if I could trust Dean to change his rhetoric, but considering he didn't do that while running for an even more sensitive position on the verbal gaffe issue -- President -- I have little faith he'll suddenly go cold turkey on sticking his foot in his mouth.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
236. Bright side: this time he didn't wait to lose before opening his yap. n/t
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