If Fineman is lying then where did he get the quotes

[dsc]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6857146/site/newsweek

In the above article Fineman suggests that anti Dean DNC members are spreading the following quotes said by Dean in an attempt to discredit him.

That left the anti-Dean forces with only one clear strategy: recycling the long list of his provocative statements. Among them: that we shouldn't judge Osama bin Laden until he has a jury trial; that America won't always have the strongest military; that "if Bill Clinton could be the first black president, I can be the first gay president." The ABD forces were also pointing reporters to an off-the-record Harvard seminar in November, at which Dean is rumored to have facetiously suggested that Democrats leave Wyoming rather than put up with anti-gay attitudes there. (A Dean spokeswoman says the governor remembers discussing the Matthew Shepherd case, but not the specific remarks about Wyoming. "In any case, his view is that the Democrats need to compete everywhere, including there.")

Clearly the first two are pretty famous and thus anyone could have those. The second two are anything but. One is a quote that literally not one Dean supporter here had ever heard of and the second is an off the record seminar. My simple question is this: If Fineman is making up this opposition plot against Dean, from whom did he get the quotes? He may be making up Clinton's role in this (though it fits a disturbing pattern on Clinton's part) but he can't be making up the plot or else he wouldn't have the quotes.

So again a simple question for those who accuse us of falling for Fineman's lies. Where did the quotes come from?

[lancdem]

1. If Clinton's against Dean

whom does he support? I wouldn't worry about something Fineman says. Dean has a good shot at winning. Also, it's based on anonymous sources.

[dsc]

3. If Fineman is correct

just about anyone else. Though that isn't my central point. My point is that Fineman must be somewhat correct to have the quotes at all.

[rucky]

2. The quotes came from an episode of Spongebob Squarepants

obviously...

[ClarkUSA]

4. Any paid GOP operative could have gotten them here at DU

while monitoring the message boards. Also, don't you think that the GOP has people to sit in on Dean speeches (and those of other Democrats) just to gather stuff to use?

Fineman is a provacateur of the first order. It's so easy, really.

[dsc]

5. No they couldn't have

Neither the first gay President nor the seminar quote appear anywhere on here until the Fineman piece. Try again.

[IndianaGreen]

6. We both know that Fineman is correct, but his exposure of the Clintons

at this early stage in Hillary's blitzkrieg to the 2008 nomination has caught the Hillary Brigades off-guard. Heck, they are still trying to rationalize Hillary's "common ground" with Operation Rescue.

[Pepperbelly]

7. what quotations are you so excited about?

Both were ascribed to Dean. Howie is like the devil. He mixes truth with lies to attack us. Fuck him. Take a deep breath and shout, "Get thee behind me, Satan."

[IndianaGreen]

8. We do know that Clinton told Kerry to dump on gays

The wrong thing to do: Clinton's anti-gay advice
November 05, 2004
By EVAN WOLFSON
Freedom to Marry

According to the November 15th issue of Newsweek, former President Bill Clinton urged Senator John Kerry to support state anti-gay constitutional amendments, though not the federal initiative:

Clinton Advice Spurned - "Looking for a way to pick up swing voters in the Red States, former President Bill Clinton, in a phone call with Kerry, urged the Senator to back local bans on gay marriage. Kerry respectfully listened, then told his aides,'I'm not going to ever do that.'"

http://www.freedomtomarry.org/document.asp?doc_id=2044

[Pepperbelly]

10. Wasn't that one from Howie as well? nt

[IndianaGreen]

12. Newsweek Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas & others

The November 15 issue "How He Did It" (on newsstands Thursday, November 4) includes an exclusive behind-the-scenes account of the entire presidential campaign reported by a separate Newsweek Special Project team that worked for more than a year on the extraordinary campaign. Highlights from the report:

<snip>

Clinton Advice Spurned. Looking for a way to pick up swing voters in the Red States, former President Bill Clinton, in a phone call with Kerry, urged the Senator to back local bans on gay marriage. Kerry respectfully listened, then told his aides, "I'm not going to ever do that."

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041104/nyth186_1.html

[Pepperbelly]

14. I already followed the link and read that but ...

at the time this came out, I recall Howie's fingerprints on that cannard. Is it true? I don't know. But coming from the same source as cited in this post, it is really a sort of circular support, IOW, no support at all.

I am suspicious of virtually everything from the "news" industry and Howie is among the most egregious in his fawning support of BUSHCO and the minions thereof. I don't know if I could tolerate being on the same side as these guys.

But hey ... different strokes and all that.

[dsc]

18. Her point is that Howard isn't listed as an author

of the piece. That makes it a different source.

[Pepperbelly]

22. it was a staff piece edited by Thomas ...

At the time, contemporaneously, I remember Howie all over it. And no, a piece from Newsweek does not make it something suddenly different. Howie contributed to the article and was credited.

[dsc]

26. Unlike you I actually did follow IG's link and the link at the bottom

of it. You will note in the paragraph I cut and paste from it that Fineman isn't credited.

This story is based on reporting by Eleanor Clift, Kevin Peraino, Jonathan Darman, Peter Goldman, Holly Bailey, Tamara Lipper and Suzanne Smalley. It was written by Evan Thomas.


You can look for yourself at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6407226/site/newsweek

So again, her point is that Fineman isn't the author and she is 100%, 24 carat correct and you are completely wrong.

[Pepperbelly]

28. then I apologize because when ...

I pulled it up, I thought I saw Howie's name. I apparently did not.

[dsc]

9. Do you honestly think

that Fineman scoured lexis nexis for quotes on the off chance that he could find some for a made up story? What if he hadn't found them? then what?

[Pepperbelly]

11. the quotations had nothing to do with ...

what Clinton is purported to be doing. They are window dressing.

[dsc]

13. I said in my post

which you apparently didn't read, that the quotes don't prove Clinton is behind it. But they do prove the existence of a plot, that we have been called delusional for saying existed. I believe Clinton's role due to Clinton's past actions.

[Pepperbelly]

17. don't get snippy ...

this early in the a.m. Drink some coffee or something.

And since you responded to my post, albeit sarcastically, then what you are maintaining is that if anyone puts some quotations from something else in an article, it somehow supports the veracity of other charges not relevant to the quotations? I fear that is an absurd proposition, lowering the threshhold of credulity in the public discourse. If the quotations were somehow appicable to the juicy gossip Howie peddles, then maybe it would bolster credibility. As it stands, it bolsters nothing.

[dsc]

23. Then read people's posts

You are now 0 for 3 in this regard. In several threads we have been accused of being delusional cranks for suggesting that there was such a thing as an anybody but Dean movement in regards to his race for DNC chair. One of our chief sins is believing Fineman. But if there isn't an active campaign against Dean, then where did Fineman get the quotes? I think it is a simple question and so far I have gotten no answer. Again, I think Clinton is behind this due to his behavior as reported by Dean in his book and by Newsweek (but not Fineman) in their magazine.

[Pepperbelly]

25. if you want to grasp ...

at straws to attack Clinton, then go for it. But don't piss on my leg because I believe you full of shit due to the fallacious reasoning displayed in both your original posts and subsequent efforts to bolster the original silly proposition. Shit, ANYONE could have found those quotes. And yes, I suspect many of Howie's revelations are a combination of Lexus-Nexus searches and pulling it out of his ass.

[dsc]

29. You are actually now 0 for 4

You claimed above to have followed IG's link and found Fineman credited as one of the authors of the piece she quoted. It turns out you didn't as he isn't credited. There is a list of people named whose reporting contributed to the piece and Fineman isn't on the list. So now we have two sources who aren't Fineman catching Clinton in the anti gay cookie jar. After awhile it become clear that everyone isn't lying on poor Bill Clinton.

[Pepperbelly]

31. your score keeping ...

is clearly not objective. I did note above that you were correct about IG's Thomas link but that hardly does anything to prove your original point which was ... silly and, btw, still is.

[The Zanti Regent]

15. Remember, this is WHOREWARD FINEMAN making this up!

Whoreward is a Nazi stooge. Period.

[IndianaGreen]

19. The only whores are the Clintons

and they will sell out anyone in order to feather their own nest!

[Pepperbelly]

21. lol

The only whores?

Give me a break.

[lojasmo]

30. Clintons' whoring has Howies name writen all over it...fingerprints too.

:eyes:

[xchrom]

16. who doesn't seriously tink clinton isn't

behind the scenes attempting to make a king?
the gay bashing is fitting a dlc pattern -- and clinton is 100% dlc and trying to make a dnc to fit his wife's political ambitions.
i mean, why not?
i don't like it -- but it fits.

[Pepperbelly]

20. geez ...

Read Will Pitt's recent post on Clinton and get back to me on this. There are so many assertions in that small post of yours that are based on nothing but opinion and belief that there is little left to rebut that is factual.

[IndianaGreen]

24. I think Will Pitt is already on the Hillary bandwagon

Read Will Pitt's recent post on Clinton and get back to me on this.

I think Will Pitt is already on the Hillary bandwagon and I expect to see many articles about how healthy it is to drink Hillary's Kool-Aid. Of course, I could be wrong...

[Pepperbelly]

27. your Clinton hating notwithstanding ...

Howie pulling stuff out of thin air does not equal evidence.

Hell, I would gig high school debaters if they dragged out a Howie quotation for a debate round.

[rodeodance]

35. it is too early to be any one person's 'bandwagon"--

[lojasmo]

32. The same could be said about EVERY ONE OF YOUR POSTS HERE. EOM

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lojasmo]

40. "howies the devil" "it's got howie's fingerprints all over it" etc, etc

unsubstantiated tripe, every word. Lots of "I can't recall" and "I can't find the source"

all very nice.

I don't eat shit, thanks anyway.

[Pepperbelly]

41. sorry to offend a Howie fan ...

And you said you didn't eat shit.

:wow:

[lojasmo]

42. No you're not. EOM

[lojasmo]

45. Not offended, just pointing out the fact that your rhetoric is BS. N/T

[Pepperbelly]

47. Do you work for Howie or are you just so convinced of his veracity

that you think he is above criticism?

I think YOUR rhetoric is bullshit and if you want to kiss Howie's ass, then do so but I do not believe he will give you even the common courtesy of a reach-around. Howie is a boil on the face of the body politic and you can defend him if you want but otherwise, I will continue to call them as I see them with no particular attention to the sniping from the cheap seats.

[lojasmo]

49. and no particulat attention to truth or fairness.

Your false dichotomy is a straw man.

[Pepperbelly]

51. yeah? your strawman is a false dichotomy.

Defrend Howie if you want. As far as your opinion of what I might write, I'll pay no attention to it from now on. Your cute little posts are not worth the trouble to punch the reply key. I know this now.

Enjoy.

[xchrom]

38. will pitt isn't the official keeper of all things clinton.

why wouldn't clinton attempt to assert his influence on the dnc?
however he thinks would be best --
his position on gay people is not friendly.
and in recent months it's pretty standard practise to use gay people to reach out ''purple americans''.

give me a break, pepperbelly, you should know better.

[Pepperbelly]

39. Didn't assert authority ...

I cited a very interesting, well written post. What is wrong with that?

[xchrom]

44. you cited it as though it ended

the conversation.
as though it had definitive authority.
it doesn't.
that's all.

[CWebster]

34. There is no question there is a struggle for power and identity

One perspective triangulates rather than formulating opposition, and the Republicans, if you haven't noticed, have come to expect that behavior. When Democrats don't fall in line and goosestep behind the Republicans, they are called to task for being partisan.

The other perspective is interested in exposing the truth.

The Republicans spend half their time complaining that the record should not be used as evidence, and the rest of the time scolding and bullying Democrats.

The breach is between Lieberman and Byrd. Clinton's strategy may have been slick in it's day, and it threw the Republicans momentarily off guard, but the blowback is the Right, in turn, now triangulates from an even more extreme position.

Who needs proof of this? Isn't it clear enough with the positions individual Democrats represent? Some "Democrats" echo and reinforce Bush, others oppose it.

It is right in front of our eyes.

The partisanship, on these boards, comes from those who throw their allegiance behind any "D" designation regardless of the views the "Democrat" holds.

[KittyWampus]

52. Dean Used The Same Strategy As Clinton. He Was A DLC Centrist

who sided with the GOP and Corporate Interests on more than just the rare occassion during the SEVERAL terms he served as Governor.

His policy positions as Prez Candidate were not that radically different than any other Democrat running.

And there's precious little hard, cold evidence showing Dean would govern any differently if he were back in office.

Dean & Clinton were very similar. Except Clinton got elected in a Southern Red state and Dean was a center/right pol in Vermont which is liberal.

I'm sure Clinton sees the wisdom of tapping the grassroots wallets and getting more local Democrats elected nationwide.... just like Dean.

Who knows, maybe Clinton just doesn't think Dean's style will WORK as a Chair of the DNC.

[CWebster]

55. Dean was a member of the club

but has since distanced himself and made public statements to the effect that the DLC had good ideas for their era but they have since moved too far to the Right. And YOU know that, so what is your point? To create a side issue attacking Dean because you can't defend your point? The fact is, I don't personally think Dean is perfect, but his approach is perfect for NOW.

This is a quote from an article by Ron Perlstein in the latest "Nation", which is not available online:

"In fact, everything DLC-like that Clinton did served to boost his own popularity at the expense of the party's strength. The idea that the safest way to win an election is with 50 percent-plus-one of the votes, by taking your base for granted and nosing yourself over the line by appealing to some notional "center" is not a "safe" strategy for the Democrats. Indeed, the more this game is repeated, the less safe it becomes, because the very ideological timidity it requires erodes the base. It just isn't a convincing story to take to the electorate. Which may be why the DLC has to promote it by hook and by crook".


That is exactly what the present Clinton is employing.

Why do you think we are all here? Because we care about the issues, not because we are cheering under a banner. That is why we promote elected representitives, not so they can win at the expense of the issues.

[slor]

36. Suck on a big one fineman...

rather than talking about Dean's "provocative statements", let us discuss the chimp's "provocative statements" that sent this country into a disastrous war!

[Pepperbelly]

37. thnak you ...

btw, I got to hear Boxer's speech against Kinda Sleezey last nite on C-SPAN. She is very good. I had not heard her speak at length before.

[wyldwolf]

43. as I said in another thread...

I fail to see what the quotes have to do with Clinton.

Regardless, I googled the first one ("gay one") and got no returns.

I've never seen them quoted on DU either.

However, this was written about John Kerry:

http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200410/109721267...

So in answer to you question, a reasonable explanation of where the Dean quotes came from could be Howard Fineman's butt.

They weren't contributed to Clinton.

But Fineman has been denigrated on DU often but we're now supposed to believe his unsourced allegations?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. "People Believe What They Want To Believe And Disregard The Rest"

eom

[dsc]

50. according the article

Dean acknowledged one and doesn't remember the other. I would have to presume they actually are accurate or at least fairly close. Again, Fineman had to have gotten them somewhere.

[wyldwolf]

53. Regardless

..it in no way implies that Clinton brought the quotes to light.

[cestpaspossible]

48. The quotes came out of Fineman's ass, I mean his mouth, I mean

it's hard to tell the difference.

[dsc]

54. Again I still have no response here

Fineman found obscure, and evidently true, quotes from Dean. In one case from an off the record seminar, and we are delusional for believing there is an anti Dean plot.

[Kahuna]

56. Those quotes are public record. Because Dean has actually

said those things. A lot of them I heard with my own ears.

[CWebster]

57. And:

"In the shadow of a bruising presidential campaign marked by suspicions of another stolen election and the further erosion of Democrats' power in Congress, party leaders appear to be united as never before against the man they believe is the greatest threat to restoring their prominence on the American political scene--Howard Dean.
Forget issues of an amoral, illegal, war costing tens of thousands of lives and crippling our economy. Forget the proposed dismantling of Social Security, the looming reversal of Roe v. Wade, environmental backsliding and failed and under-funded education policies.

Forget George W. Bush, the artificial architect of all the above.

In his drive to become chairman of the National Democratic Committee, Howard Dean, our hoopin' and hollerin' former governor, strikes more fear in the hearts of the party faithful than Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove combined. Dean's straightforward, progressive ideals include an unwavering opposition to the war in Iraq long before Senate Democrats, with 20-20 hindsight, began hammering Condi Rice at her confirmation hearings. Our former governor also has had the liberal temerity to say that American won¹t always have the strongest military, and--hold on to your hats-- that we shouldn¹t judge Osama bin Laden until he has a trial.

Party old-timers fear such brash statements will run counter to America's new moral code. But what is more moral than wanting to save the lives of U.S. soldiers, and preserve retirement benefits for future generations, and a woman's right to choose?"






http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0126-35.htm

[Norquist Nemesis]

58. Here's a theory...

Fineman has close ties to the WH. It's been reported (speculated?) that the WH feared Dean the most. Now, whether one agrees or disagrees with this, wouldn't it also be plausible that the WH does not want Dean as chair because of his already proven track record with grassroots organization of Democrats? Who benefits most by removing the perceived threat of Dean as DNC Chair? Why would Dean's statements on issues of policy be thrown into the fire, unless that's all ya got. Hmmm? :tinfoilhat:

[Cocoa]

59. when your cause rests on defending Howard Fineman

you might want to rethink your cause.