What was so bad about this Dean speech?

[vi5]

I don't have audio here at work so I can't see or hear it. What was the gist of what was said and why was it so offensive to people?

Please just a straightforward description if you can. I'm not looking for Dean bashing or blame placing or anything. Just wondering what was so bad that even some Dean supporters are saying they were embarrased.

All I know is my brother is a totally apathetic but liberal leaning guy and HATES me talking politics and will do anything in his power to not get me started on anything political or politics related even if he agrees with me. And first thing he did this morning was e-mail me asking me if I saw Howard Dean's speech last night. That was my first clue something was up because he would never bring up politics with me unless it was something he just could not resist asking me about.

[mmonk]

1. I think to some

it reinforced the image the media has been trying to portray (of just being angry). I'm not one who thinks that way though I think he was disappointed.

[AlinPA]

5. Please, I'm not bashing him, I love him, but IMO

his facial expressions and accompanying tone of voice were not typical of himself. If they played that clip without sound, he would look too angry for most people. I'm sorry that's the way I saw it. I still think he a is a great candidate.

[NashVegas]

25. In a Nutshell, Yes

The worst part is that it was such a small portion of the speech, and it's the part the news media is going to focus on over and over and over.

I sure would have loved to have seen the footage from the weekend when the Thuglicans busted into the Dean rally and started shit, and the Deanies turned around and sang the national anthem. That might have shown him and his supporters in a positive light and the BFEE in a negative one, however. Simply not allowed, you know.

[dsc]

2. He was in a hall with bad accoustics and there for yelled

Harkin, who had spoken before him, also yelled. It wasn't his best speech but it wasn't that bad either. It did suffer in comparison to both Gephardt's and Edwards'. Clearly they should have picked better accoustics and they also should have given him a practice run or two. He was speaking off the cuff and it showed.

If the crowds mood was anything like mine he was probably sensing a need for a pep talk and gave one.

[John_H]

3. And the negative air pressure made his veins pop out.

[beaconess]

28. And Harkin kept tickling him from behind & made his face contort like that

And the media shined their lights in face to confuse him and make him forget to thank the voters.

And an Edwards plant in the audience hypnotized him so that he forgot the speech he was supposed to give, leaving him to just rant.

[Jerseycoa]

4. What was so bad

is a mental image came with it of this man's finger on the nuclear button.

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. In reply to a direct question.

I will repost what I wrote on another thread today.

"I'll try to be low key.

"I am afraid you are right (Reference was to a post that Dean really hurt himself with that speech). I'm old enough to remember the way the front running Ed Muskie campaign simply collapsed after he seemingly cried on camera while talking about attacks on his family. There is absolutely nothing fair about it. The problem for Dean will be two fold. First, after coming in a distant third in Iowa, people will be asking why he did not do better to begin with. Then along comes this video clip of a revved up Dean shouting, and some people will put those two together and see it as proof of the charge that already was out there, that "Dean is too angry" to win the Presidency. This will not help Dean pick up support, it will cause more leakage at a time when he has to reestablish momentum.

I am not wishing this prediction on Dean. I will never argue anywhere that that frozen video moment proves anything negative about Dean's ability to win or be a great President. I know that clip was just a snippet from one speech. I know Dean was trying to fire up his troops, which is one of the things you have to do after a set back. And I know that Dean, like all of the guys running, was well past the point of total exhaustion last night.

I am dropping all further personal commentary on this. I said this here once, that's enough. I do not want Dean's campaign, or anyone's for that matter, to turn on a fifteen second piece of footage where he did NOT say a single word that is objectionable to anyone."

And now that I posted this onto a topic specific thread (the original post was not on this theme, only replying to a post about it) I really will not add further fuel to this bonfire. Good luck Dean supporters. This is not what your man should win or lose around. I hope it blows over. though I fear it won't.

[VOX]

7. It's RW propaganda -- enthusiasm is being spun as "anger"

Read almost any story about Dean from any major news outlet -- if you don't see the words "anger" or "angry," you've skipped a paragraph or two.

This phony "anger" business is stuck to Dean now in the same way that the "exaggeration" falsehood was hung on Al Gore.

[AP]

9. Media is presenting exactly the message Dean wants to send:

I'm impolite and I'm mad and I'm excited.

[beaconess]

29. Exactly - but now that it's not selling the way he thought it would

he's blaming the media for putting out his message.

[AP]

8. Accentuating the Negative:

It was his chance to say (symbolically) that the anger wasn't what people were looking for, and to say that it would be the ideas that counted, blah blah blah.

But he jumped on the horse that rode him into trouble.

[shance]

16. Some friends and I are printing We are Angry too Howard! bumper stickers

I cant believe how afraid alot of people are about Americans <gasp!> actually being angry.

HELL YES, WE ARE ANGRY!!*****Every sane American in this country. The rest must be suffering from delusions if they are not angry.


It more than amazes me how we let Republicans dictate.

It amazes me how we allow them to shame us into submission and to conforming to THEIR beliefs and not OURS. I will tell you what is shameful - THAT IS.


So, which one of you at DU is not angry with this administration?

I am laughing and also very disappointed in once again, spineless Dems and media letting the Bush Administration dictate. Look how well they dictate on other things.

[Zech Marquis]

10. my honest answer

it made him look unpresidential. Karl Rove can loop that pseech 24/7 and ask,"do you want HIM with the keys to our nuclear weapons?" They're making fun of him on ESPn Radio, each and every show host--Golic, Greenberg, Kornheishe, and now Dan Patrick..that's really BAD!!!

[Ridley Park 704]

11. the fact that this is a big topic means it was not good

Rove already has the commercial in his head: In times of terrorism and war, Dean the loose cannon against level headed President Bush.
Who do you want in the White House?


This is not good for Dean. Remember, Nixon won the debate against Kennedy on the radio, but lost it on TV.

[TLM]

12. The crowd was very loud and Dean yelled...

that's it... Dean yelled as he was giving a very rousing speech.

But as ususal the people who attack everything Dean says or does are attacking this.

[vi5]

14. You can believe that if you want....

But I have read posts from Dean supporters on here who weren't particularly enamored of the speech, and since spoken to other Dean supporters in person who thought it was not the best move in the world.

So if you want to think it's some big bash dean conspiracy go ahead, but the only reason I asked is because it clearly seems like it had an impact on people in a not so positive way. Not because of media spin, but people simply watching it and listening to it for themselves.

I have not so I can't say either way. But the reaction is not something I've seen this primary season.

[Tom Rinaldo]

You are completely right

And I am not one of those attacking Dean for it. The simple answer to this thread's question is a single sentence. The speech provides ammunition to Dean's opponents, both inside and outside of the Democratic Party. The opponents who are most using that ammunition right now are on America's air waves, not supporters of other candidates bashing Dean here at DU.

I hate for any hard fought sincerely waged campaign to be strongly effected by one brief moment in time, regardless of whether that moment is used fairly or unfairly, more so when it is used unfairly.

[fob]

13. Nothing. Here is my take from another thread.

I watched the entire 20 minute 41 second clip from post 65 via the cspan link and saw NOTHING along the lines being discussed here.

People are talking about an angry guy who disses Edwards and Kerry, who howls in a strange voice and repeats, "Yes, We Will! or Yes, We Can!" in Spanish (Si, se puede!) that is disturbing. Dean also abuses Senator Harkin as his "coatboy" along the way. They also are out of their minds over Dean's constant yelping, or wailing after every sentence.

Where is THAT video?

I saw a pumped up Sen Harkin introduce "The next President of the United States, Howard Dean!" Dean came on stage excited and gesturing(not wildly or out of place-like but in tune with the moment), hugged someone and took off his jacket and handed it to Senator Harkin, who then passes it off to someone else. Dean then rolls up his sleeves(kinda a trademark, crowd roars) and pulls out an orange cap(representative of the field supporters, crowd roars again) and starts his speech. He thanks supporters and the like, even the ENTIRE STATE OF IOWA, and says that "If a year ago someone said WE would take third in Iowa he would have taken that" - paraphrased). He vowed to continue fighting and listed off states that are next, his voice growing louder and more gruff as the list grew. He did end it with a YEEAAHHH!, but nothing so animal as described here. There was the high fives and arm gestures, but nothing so distant beyond Sen Harkin's own gesticulations. He mentioned congratulatory phone calls to Kerry and Edwards for a job well done and to Gephardt for his work and years of service. He took some cues from the crowd when someone started yelling out additional states to fight in, that were not so hard to figure out were the home states of the other candidates, and might I add he included Al Sharptons state where other candidates may not have mentioned(He singled out Mass, NC, AK, NY, CT and forgot OH in this particular chant). Someone else in the crowd must have started saying something in Spanish because Dean responded in Spanish himself, evidently joining in the "Si, se puede!" chant and shouting that several times over the mic. He smiled the whole time he wasn't speaking and some of the time he was. He closed announcing his standard closing speech and then shook hands with EVERYONE on stage with him before turning to the crowd one last time and then exiting.

THAT'S the video I saw.

One poster hear said her husband was leaning Dean until the Si, se puede! chant, Why was that such a dealbreaker? As for the other views, I have no idea. I have a feeling this is one of those times where the spin of the event becomes the transcript of the event(see Wellstone Memorial), but maybe not.

Anyone?

fob - Full disclosure - Still planning on voting for Al Sharpton at this point

[markus]

26. The posters here are just joining the general right-wing death dance

and enjoying every minute of it.

I'm trying not to get a message deleted and maintain my cool, but there is no discernable difference between the message of the conservative media elites and a lot of anti-Dean democrats on this board.

[redqueen]

32. That was me

It wasn't just the chant... it was really the howling 'yeah' that made him roll his eyes and look at me as if I wrote the dang speech. He's a closet Republican anyway (or so I think). He'll probably still support him, since he's opposed to Kucinich but likes the 'man of hte people' type of candidate, but he reeeeally didn't like that speech.

As for the chant, like I said, he hates them all. I don't think he'd seen a Dean speech actually -- I think he's used chants before. But this time he heard it (we were listening to NPR), and he was instantly astonished. He even took the initiative to put the TV on C-Span (that NEVER happens) to find out what the situation was. When we saw the video... well let's just say it didn't help.

But like I said, he may end up voting for Dean anyway, so ... this is a lot of bluster over nothing substantial. Sure, it will be fodder for those that don't take politics seriously, but I do worry for Dean's support among those who don't take politics seriously enough.

Hope that makes more sense.

[kentuck]

15. He and his advisors thought his supporters were down because of his

poor showing and they felt they needed to fire them up and let them know he was not quitting and he did not want his supporters to quit. This was only one battle. Unfortunately, a lot of people thought he might have overdone it a bit. In my opinion, it was not as bad as his opponents have painted.

[eissa]

17. Over the top

I think both Harkin and Dean were trying to put a positive spin, and at the same time encourage their supporters, after a disappointing night. Unfortunately, his enthusiasm came off as "maniacal" (as described by the pundits and many here on DU). The facial expressions and gesturing, and the yelling, got in the way of the message. It looked even worse when compared to the speeches of the other candidates, particularly Kerry, who looked very "presidential." I understand his frustration after being attacked mercilessly by all fronts; let's see how the new "front runner" will handle those same attacks.

[TreasonousBastard]

18. I think it was just a tragedy of errors.

Dean knows his supporters like the fire and brimstone speeches, and he gave them one about not giving up.

So far so good. Keeping up the fight is a real message when expectations are crashed like that. The primaries are far from over, and no one should get discouraged.

Timing wasn't so hot, though. Television isn't really the place for fiery oratory, and it comes off like too much shouting. It probably sounded a lot better if you were there than it did on TV.

Stepping on Edwards seemed like pushing it a little too far, but that could have been more Murphy's Law than anything intentional on anyone's part.

He was hoarse and tired, and didn't seem really up to oratory. Sounded more like a pro wrestler yelling about how he's gonna kick ass next time. He looked really tired on Nightline later. Quiet, determined, and sincere would have played a lot better.

It remains to be seen whether or not it sticks and feeds the loose cannon image some are trying to portray. Since this is the first speech after an actual polling, it's an important one. With all the candidates, it sets the tone for the next stage. That the word is going out that a lot of people were either unimpressed or turned off is not good news.

But, things are moving pretty fast now, and we'll see what the next few weeks do.

[gauguin57]

23. stepping on edwards ...

shouldn't have been left up to Murphy's Law. Dean's is the best-financed campaign, so it should be reasonably well run ... his campaign staff should be able to look at a freaking television and determine whether Edwards was done speaking or not! Elementary!

It could be that Dean just didn't care who else was speaking when he started. Didn't care enough to check. And that's just rude.

[On the Road]

19. vi5, I Agree with You

It was a rallying speech to a group of supporters. I have no idea why so many Democrats were turned off by it.

At the same time, I think the fact that so many people DID respond negatively is very, very serious. I think the perception was orchestrated by the media and the establishment of both parties, but it's there nonetheless. Up until yesterday, I thought Dean could survive the attacks. But now a lot of Democrats seem to buy into the "madman" characterizaion. If that's the perception, then that's the political reality. It makes me very sad.

I think Dean could recover from a third-place finish in Iowa. I do NOT know if he can recover from a consensus that he is an unstable madman. From what I'm seeing both on I think the speech last night was a hinge event.

This has all kinds of bad repercussions for the elections. For one, the hidden message is "don't be passionate" or "only be passionate in a 'framed' way where people know not to take it too seriously." This is what lost in 2002. It will lose in 2004. One of the candidates has to change in some fundamental way, like Al Gore did. That's all we can hope for.

[Ramsey]

20. I'll try to describe it

Although really I think one has to see it to make up one's mind.

Dean spoke to his supporters after the caucus. He started by thanking several of the campaign organizers in Iowa, bringing them up on stage and introducing them. Then he started to talk about where the campaign was going, when he began yelling into the mic, telling the crowd that they would keep moving forward in other states, that they'd be successful in other primaries.

This seems to be the part some people thought was weird or over-the-top. Personally I just thought he was rousing the crowd, which was very loud and enthusiastic. He did make a kind of odd little screech at the end but, to nitpick on that is really like blathering on about how Gore sighed too much. It's really about that stupid. I mean the guy was losing his voice and he couldn't sustain that volume.

After that brief section, he returned to thanking his supporters and talking about his ideas for the country, in a normal tone of voice.

It was a pep-rally for the troops, Dean had a bad voice and yelled into the mic for about 2 minutes. I didn't think it was embarrassing, and he certainly didn't look crazed or drunk; that's just hateful thinking on the part of some other person's supporters who seem to have a visceral loathing for Dean that most of us reserve for Bush. Nor did he look angry, far from it. He was smiling and laughing, and clearly pumped by the roomful of screaming fans. I guess he was supposed to be dour and subdued, but if he had, he would have gotten reamed for that too, by the same group of folks.

[LTR]

21. My thoughts

I feel he started out well. But the yelling and calling out state names just became overkill. He did himself no favors last night.

Sure didn't help that Kerry came on and gave the best speech of his life.

[Westegg]

22. Dean didn't sound "angry" to me...

He sounded impassioned. Which is fine, in theory. His actual words were not unduly extreme. BUT he came across as verging on the manic with his tone of voice, his facial expressions, etc. IMHO, it was too over-the-top. I've heard that scream of his used in media soundbites all morning. It truly sounds bizarre. And was probably the result of fatigue, etc. Still, those who can use it against him surely will.

[West Coast Democrat]

24. His voice sounded just awful and grating!

[goodhue]

27. the scream

was bizarre
otherwise he just shouted a lot and got really red
kind of reminded of Gov Ventura
but it was passionate and heartfelt
not that big a deal really
but the media wont let it die

[killbotfactory]

30. It was all good until he bit the head off a bat.

But to be fair, he thought it was fake.

[chiburb]

31. Speaking as a fence-sitter....

And as one who is thrilled that a DEMOCRAT won the Iowa caucus, let me say this:

I heard the Dean soundbite on NPR while driving to work this morning. It wasn't the lead clip, it was in context after hearing clips of Kerry and Edwards. Anyway, I couldn't believe my ears. The man sounded crazed to me and very frightening. Later, I SAW the clip on GMA or Today and realized that the Doctor was smiling and just rallying the troops after a bitter loss. It still seemed over the top, but I had to SEE it realize that he was NOT pulling a Howard Beal (Network: "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore"!).

Will it hurt? Hell if I know, but it sure might have if hurt his chances with me if I'd only heard the audio.

Once again, I'm ABB and will support the Dem nominee....

[Rich Hunt]

33. it's the American way

It's funny - Dean is a rationalist who expresses emotion. I like that about him.

But I think most Americans make judgments based on their feelings but frown on showing any.

It's hypocritical. Also, not all cultures in America frown on the showing of emotion. People who frown on it need to consider that not everyone shares their values. There's a real cultural chauvinism at work here. Was a time in this country when politicians used to campaign that way.

It's funny how Dean is supposed to be this WASP and people use that to attack him, but when he acts contrary to the WASP stereotype, they don't like him either.

As someone who is sick of the repression and snobbery in some corners of American society, I thought it was fantastic and refreshing.

[chiburb]

34. Well said, worth the time to read...

Thanks!