Christian Fascism

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rwor.org/future

THE BATTLE FOR THE FUTURE WILL BE FOUGHT FROM HERE FORWARD!

YOU THINK YOU KNOW................BUT YOU HAVE NO IDEA..............JUST WHAT BUSH HAS IN STORE FOR.....YOU.....US.....THE WORLD.....OUR FUTURE!

Straight up—Bush and his people aren’t just ordinary Republicans. And they’re not ordinary Christians either. They are Christian Fascists—dangerous fanatics who aim to make the U.S. a religious dictatorship and to force this upon the world. If they get their way—and they are very far along the road to getting it—society will be plunged into a high-tech Dark Ages.

Those who compare Bush to Hitler are right! But, don’t be waiting for people wearing little mustaches and marching the Nazi goose-step to come to your town. This brand of fascism is coming differently, and it's coming straight from the White House.
Staring at Christian Fascism

People say, "they couldn’t, no they just wouldn’t" strip away "classic" U.S. democracy and plunge us into fascism. But let’s see what they’ve done... and what they plan to do.

Bush believes that he is on a "mission from God," and so do his cronies. Army General William Boykin recently declared that the Iraqi people were the "face of Satan," that the Christian God was the only true and "real" god, and that "God himself" put Bush in the White House. He said all this publicly and in uniform, no less—and after people protested it, Boykin was promoted! Over the years these Christian Fascists have dug in at every level of the courts, the army and Congress. BUT NOW THEY PLAN TO GO FURTHER, moving more thoroughly into the highest levels of power. Supreme Court Justice Scalia and other highly placed Republicans want to wipe out the separation of church and state, and use government to support and enforce religious belief.

Bush has launched a worldwide "crusade." In the name of "good vs. evil," he’s killed tens of thousands of people in Iraq, and maybe more—and still the war rages. In the name of "fighting terror", he justifies torturing people in prisons like Guantanamo and murdering wounded prisoners in Iraq. This proven liar has rammed through a new "doctrine" that lets him wage war whenever and wherever he says he "sees a threat", and there is no telling where he’ll stop. The U.S. has long committed monstrous crimes around the world ... and NOW THEY PLAN TO GO FURTHER. The imperialists in power—all of them, with Bush at the core—want total global empire. Bush himself believes in Armageddon, that Islam is "evil", and that he is "fighting for God." How many people, halfway ’round the world or right down the block, will lose their lives to this lunacy? Lunacy backed up by, and serving, imperialism.

Bush’s gang suppresses science. They’ve taken control of scientific agencies. They promote "creationism" against evolution and they suppress scientific research on life-and-death issues like global warming, the AIDS epidemic, and stem-cell research. Unless they can use it to make money or make weapons, Bush’s people hate the scientific spirit of trying to figure out how the world really works. Science calls into question their dogmatic interpretation of the Bible that prepares people to sacrifice for "god and country"—and never ask why.

Bush is dismantling democratic rights. Tens of thousands of immigrants have been detained and deported for little, if any, reason and thousands more have been imprisoned with no charges—many for years. The Bush regime spies on political and religious groups. It suppresses ordinary protests with massive force, including even tanks in the streets. And it openly disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Black voters in the last election. All this, AND NOW THEY PLAN ON GOING FURTHER. Bush aims to pass more fascist laws, his flunkies threaten artists and intellectuals who dare to step outside the lines, they are invading all aspects of daily life—and it is an open question as to whether any rights at all will be left standing.
Bush’s Morality: Hypocrisy and Hatred

Bush talks about "values," but if you’re a single woman and you want to live your own life ... or if you’re gay and proud ... these Christian Fascists have you in their cross-hairs. They’ve severely restricted the right to abortion and tried to put independent-minded women on the defensive. They whipped up anti-gay hatred as a big part of their presidential campaign. BUT NOW THEY ARE GOING MUCH FURTHER. Bush aims to appoint new Supreme Court justices who will totally outlaw abortion, and he wants to pass a constitutional amendment against gay marriage. And these fascists also go after the more humane forms of Christianity that don’t share their hateful bigotry.

"Values?" These people have the morality of a lynch mob! If you are Black or Latino, and especially if you are up against the merciless conditions of the inner city ... then you too are in the cross-hairs. Bush plans to rip out even social security. He wants to do health care, education, welfare, and even prisons through churches that are directly approved, funded by and answering to the government. These churches will not "lift people up"—and these programs will degrade people, insisting that they agree that their hunger, their homelessness, and their problems flow from their "sins"—and not from a system that has oppressed them from Day One. And the full Christian Fascist plan—which includes vastly expanded capital punishment for minor crimes, in accord with Old Testament "morality"—is far worse, with a downright genocidal direction to it.
A Time for Resistance

Are we exaggerating? If anything, people have always under-estimated just how fast and how far Bush would go. And now he claims a "mandate" for his lunacy. No, Bush and the people around him are deadly serious and aim to go much further than almost anyone expects.

As for "mandate?" BULL! The will of the people was NOT expressed in this election. Kerry didn’t call Bush out for his lies and deception, or expose the real horrors of Bush’s deeds—and his plans. There was no real fight, and people should not grant a shred of legitimacy to Bush.

And waiting for yet another Democrat to disappoint and betray people four years from now is not only worthless—it may be way too late. What we need now, very urgently and very immediately, is RESISTANCE. Resistance, in the words of Bob Avakian, Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party, "that refuses to be bound by the terms of mainstream politics or the notion that this politics represents the ’ultimate word’ on the ’will of the people.’ Resistance that will not just protest the juggernaut of war and fascism but go all-out to STOP it. Resistance that will reach out and win over people who have been deceived by this madness but whose deepest interests are opposed to it. Resistance that will be united—but will still include space for dreams and debate."

We can build on the past resistance to the Iraq war and other Bush outrages. But this must come back together and take a huge leap with major actions when Bush is inaugurated on January 20th, 2005. People everywhere must see that there really ARE "two Americas," squaring off over the future.
The Revolutionary Way Out

This Christian Fascism didn’t materialize out of thin air. It arose on the basis of CAPITALISM and the most powerful capitalists support it (even as they fight among themselves).

What do we mean by capitalism? Today, people could produce enough food, housing and clothing to provide a decent life to everyone on the planet. But the means to do this are owned and controlled by a handful of global capitalist-imperialists who are driven to get ever greater profit, or else go under. And so half the people on the planet live on less than $2 a day. Billions go hungry. People are driven from country to city and then around the world, desperately seeking work, while communities in the U.S. are left to rot. And now the Bush lunacy has taken this to an even more terrible level.

But imagine a different future. A future where people consciously learn about and transform the world, and are not imprisoned in the chains of tradition and ignorance. A world without racism and without borders. A vibrant place, where people together debate and decide how to develop society. A world where people no longer wonder where their next meal will come from, or if they will be homeless, or abandoned or sick in their old age—a world of abundance, where people together hold all of society’s resources in common. A world where people not only work to produce the necessities of life, but get into art and culture and science—and have fun doing it! A world without the domination of women by men, where people interact with each other based on mutual respect, concern and love for humanity. A world that looks out for and takes care of the environment.

That world is communism. And we can get to that world.
A Revolutionary Society

But how? Through revolution—where those who are today exploited and oppressed rise up and defeat the powers-that-be. A revolution led by the class that owns nothing but its ability to work, and yet works together to make the world run. A revolution in which this class steps on to the stage of history and leads tens of millions more—including the millions who hate the cruel reign of Bush and the Christian fascists.

Revolutions don’t happen overnight, or by accident. But when a deep crisis suddenly erupts in society, and when a revolutionary party has been actively organizing and preparing people for such an opening, and when millions of people begin to think we need a basic change ... and become a "revolutionary people" ... then dreams can be seized in the clear light of day. No, we’re not there yet—but the extreme changes being wrought by the Bush crew could very well lead to such a crisis. And our Party is doing all it can to bring forward a revolutionary people to seize that time, whenever it may come.

People have made this kind of revolution before—first in Russia, then in China. And they accomplished amazing things. In the end, however, those revolutions were finally turned back and defeated by the guardians of the old order. But building on their tremendous accomplishments—and examining deeply and unsparingly their negative experiences—Bob Avakian has brought forward a radical new "model" and vision of what this socialist society must be all about.

Socialist society will enable people to solve the most burning problems that bedevil us today. The "rule of profit" will be shattered and there will be jobs, health care, decent housing and stimulating education—for everyone. Communities will be centers where people join to solve the problems that hold society back. The racism and white supremacy that is woven so deeply into the fabric of American capitalism, and the chains of women’s oppression that still weigh so heavily, will be struggled against and uprooted—from the gitgo! And the socialist state will not oppress other nations—instead, it will support revolution all around the world.

But even more crucially, the new society will unleash people to change the world. People will count for something—in fact, for everything. Those who were formerly locked out of working with ideas will do exactly that—they will work with their minds and participate in society in an all-round way. The leadership of society will work to unleash diverse thinking and action from the bottom up and everywhere else. It will foster dissent, including opposition to the government itself; it will learn all it can from people, so that society can move forward. The youth will be treasured for their dreams, their daring ... and their impatience. There will be ferment and upheaval—far beyond what we can imagine today.

And yes, there must be, and there will be, firm leadership to hold onto power for the people and to guide all the complex and challenging struggle. Through this whole process, and as other revolutions develop around the world, the state itself will draw more and more millions into the direct rule of every part of society until the division of people into ruler and ruled is finally overcome, in communist society.

This socialism, as envisioned by Bob Avakian, will embrace scientists, intellectuals, and artists. They’ll continue their intellectual and artistic work, deepening the store of human knowledge, even as they break down barriers with other sections of society, especially the formerly exploited and oppressed. The leadership of society won’t fear their tendency to question everything, or to look at things in new ways. On the contrary, it will welcome this in a way that no other society can—for without lively questioning and "air to breathe", socialism would not be a place people would want to live, nor would it open up the road to communism.

In this revolutionary society people will be able to practice religion and go to church—or not—as they please. But the schools, and the government generally, will promote a scientific approach to understanding and changing material reality. On that basis, a new morality will be forged. It will cherish the lives of the people of the world and uphold equality between nations and peoples and between men and women. It will value struggle against the oppressive relations that still remain, and not resignation and surrender to them.

The Clash of Two Futures

Two futures confront each other. Will imperialism force a future of darkness and suffocation onto the people? Will tens of millions more needlessly suffer and die? OR, will the critical spirit be unleashed in a way that does a great GOOD for humanity? Will society move forward in a revolutionary direction and set about removing the great suffering and misery cast down on the people by capitalism?

To put it another way, which vision will prevail: that of George W. Bush? Or of Bob Avakian?

Each of us has a part in answering this question. We know that the job is huge, the time is short, and the odds are long. Yet we are down for this, all the way down, and optimistic as well.

But let us put it to YOU: if you’ve been agonizing about the future, if you nodded your head as you read this statement, then... what are YOU gonna do? Are YOU going to be one of thousands who come together now and help create the force that can lead millions against this madness, when millions are ready to be led? Will you help create and bring onto the stage a revolutionary people? Are you ready to check out this Party and this leader? Will you bring your ideas, your creativity, your questions and yes, your disagreements to us, and help figure out how we can rise to the occasion? Are YOU ready to make a real difference—to not only spread the word of resistance and revolution, but make that a real alternative in society?

Don’t let Bush determine the future. Spread this statement to your friends. Talk about it with them. And check us out. Now.

Revolutionary Communist Party, USA

Who Is Bob Avakian?

Anyone seriously thinking about revolution knows that it can’t happen without revolutionary leadership.

It’s a huge question.

Well, just to be up front, there IS a leader, the likes of which this country has never seen before, that can lead a mighty struggle to make revolution and remake society. That leader is Bob Avakian, Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party.

Chairman Avakian knows revolution. He has studied deeply the revolutions of the past and taken up the responsibility for charting the course of revolution today. He has done a whole "re-envisioning" of communist society and what it will take to get there. He’s a leader with tremendous love for and confidence in the people; and he gives you confidence and hope that we can actually do what the times demand of all of us.

But there’s more to his leadership than this. Chairman Avakian makes not just what he’s learned but how he analyzes things the property of the people. He knows it takes the great involvement of the people to make revolution, and he invites—and challenges—everyone into the process of struggle to know and change the world. It may seem ironic ... but the more that people wrestle with and follow his leadership, the greater will be their creative spirit, initiative, and activity. We in the RCP are fully aware that someone like Bob Avakian comes along only very rarely, and we take seriously our responsibility to defend this precious leader from the powers-that-be—and to rally others to do so as well.

If you care at all about the world we’re in, you should check him out for yourselves.

Websites: rwor.org and bobavakian.net

1. Kick

just for fun

[usregimechange]

2. Hitler claimed to be a Christian solder as well, maybe, nt

[rman]

33. for sure - Hitler pandered to religion a lot in Mein Kampf

and in various speeches, while scoffing at it privately.

Which sheds an interesting light on the fact that Mein Kampf is effectively banned nearly all over the world.

see the docu-drama "Hitler: the rise of evil"
http://www.cbs.com/specials/rise_of_evil/

[Zynx]

44. Hitler was not a Christian.

No Christian would say the things he said about Christianity in private.

[rman]

49. I'm not saying Hitler was a Christian

what i'm saying is that anyone can pander to the religious base by pretending to be religious - like Bush does now.

[AmerDem]

3. They have a bit of a problem

I wouldn't think twice about putting my life on the line to take as many of them out before I take my last breath. I'll forever live in peace.

4. It's going to take more than one person

It's going to take millions of people organized and committed, to defeat this agenda.

[OneBlueSky]

5. "George Bush and the Rise of Christian Fascism"

a sermon by Rev. Rich Lang of Seattle's Trinity United Methodist Church . . . requires Adobe Acrobat reader . . .

http://216.197.101.64/trinity/pictures/GB%20andtheriseofchristianfascismrejune04.pdf

[0007]

21. Give us a summation I don't feel like reading this rat's ass in detail.

Okay?

[Ready2Snap]

80. * is counting on your laziness

No one can make you read it, that's your right. How would you like it if you weren't ALLOWED you read it?
The article is worth reading because you can't understand the threat if you don't understand its components.
The article is not compressable into easily digested bites.
You might also read this:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm
which lists the 14 points all fascist regimes have in common.
You may be surprised at how closely they match the * agenda.

They're counting on your lazy ass letting them chip away at your rights until it's too late.
Information is power, so read the damn thing for your own good, while they still can't stop you.

[The Magistrate]

6. Bob Avakian...?

Now that takes me back....

14. What do you mean?

nt.

[JohnLocke]

56. Haven't seen you in awhile.

:hi:

[genius]

7. Okay. But the Communists I spoke to at rallies said they weren't voting.

Now, why should I back them in a revolution if they aren't willing to back an attempt to do it through democracy? My issue is not with socialism. I like don't like revolutions.

[rman]

9. what democracy?

you may not like revolutions, but sometimes it's the only way for the people to free themselves from oppression.
Do you really think the workers should not have revolted against the oligarchi at the start of the previous century, a revolt that won us a 5 day 8 hr workweek as opposed to 6 day 14hr/day, decent workplace safety standards, etc?
What kind of situation do you think we would be in now if no revolutions had ever taken place?

Some kind of revolution seems inevitable now, be it sooner or later. Though it may be a revolution of a kind that we've never seen before.

11. quid pro quo?

Shouldn't something as serious as the future of our world be determined using truth as a measurement, rather than quid pro quo logic?

We have around 200 yrs of experience with questions of revolution and democracy. A look at Germany will give you a horrible example of what has happened in the past to people who wanted to make a new future "peacefully". That is, they stood by while Hitler took power. Chile 1973 is another example. They were slaughtered.

Here is a small bit of the analysis that Avakian has on elections and democracy in the U.S.

From "Pyramid of Power And the Struggle to Turn This Whole Thing Upside Down" http://rwor.org/a/1259/avakian-pyramid3.htm

So, let’s look at this whole picture and look at what they’ve been putting in place and then think about this: what do the Democrats—from their own position within the ruling class—what do they have to counter this with?

Here’s the pyramid, and here are the Republicans over here (on the right) with their shit going down to this right-wing social base of religious maniacs and fundamentalist fools. OK, remember the aftermath of the 2000 election, when they were dealing with all the "hanging chads" and "pregnant chads" and all the rest of that in Florida. There was one point where in one precinct in Florida they were counting the ballots, and this group of operatives—Republican congressional aides—came down there and banged on the doors of the precinct where they were doing this, and actually intimidated them out of counting the ballots. Now, that was significant in itself but it was also symbolic of something much bigger than that particular incident. What it’s symbolic of is that these forces are quite willing to call into motion this fascistic kind of force that they’ve built up when they feel that they need it, and they’re willing to bring it all the way into motion and turn this into a whole other kind of religious, fundamentalist, fascistic society if they feel that’s where they need to go.

On the other hand, here are the Democrats at the top of this pyramid (on the so-called "left"). Who are the people that they try to appeal to—not that the Democrats represent their interests, but who are the people that the Democrats try to appeal to at the base, on the other side of this pyramid, so to speak? All the people who stand for progressive kinds of things, all the people who are oppressed in this society. For the Democrats, a big part of their role is to keep all those people confined within the bourgeois, the mainstream, electoral process...and to get them back into it when they have drifted away from—or broken out of—that framework. Because those people at the base are always alienated and angry at what happens with the elections, for the reason I was talking about earlier: they are always betrayed by the Democratic Party, which talks about "the little man" and poor people and the people who are discriminated against, and so on. And at times they’ll even use the word oppression. But then they just sell out these people every time —because they don’t represent their interests. They represent the interests of the system and of its ruling class. But they have a certain role of always trying to get people who are oppressed, alienated and angry back into the elections. You know: "Come on in, come on in- -it’s not as bad as you think, you can vote, it’s OK." This is one of the main roles they play. But the thing about them is that they are very afraid of calling into the streets this base of people that they appeal to, to vote for them. The last thing in the world they want to do is to call these masses of people into the streets to protest or to battle against this right-wing force that’s being built up.

So, this gives a sense of the real danger that exists now in this country—of the whole direction toward a qualitatively much more repressive and, yes, even a fascistic form of bourgeois rule.

[Gemini Cat]

8. If I remember correctly

Bob went to Europe in 1981 to avoid going to jail from charges stemming from a demonstration in DC. I assume he's still there. A lot of his followers soon thereafter, decided that living on the edge of poverty not to mention possible jail time, as well as getting bored creating general havoc, soon made their way back to the lovely petite-bourgeoisie life they had left when they decided to play REVOLUTIONARY.

They don't vote, because they don't believe in the "system." That in turn, makes them virtually useless pains in the asses that will annoy the living hell out of a person.

10. artistic license?

or wishful thinking?

Avakian apparently did leave the country due to charges from a demonstration against a visit by Deng Xiao Ping. He had something like 200+ years being thrown at him on trumped up charges. Anyway he recently gave a speech in the U.S. ( http://threeqvideo.com/ ), and the RCP is diverse and growing.

As to the last part of your statement, about people leaving, and "playing" revolutionaries, I wouldn't know much about it. How do you know anything about it? Internet rumors?

As to the question of voting and elections I would suggest listening to this recent speech by Avakian on the subject. It's illuminating to hear something other than, "if you don't vote you can't complain", or "you lost now shutup and get used to it". Here is the first part of the speech: http://bobavakian.net/sound/avakian_democracy_1.mp3

The rest of it can be found at: http://bobavakian.net/

It is the speech called "Elections, Democracy and Dictatorship, Resistance and Revolution"

[countryjake]

12. Arise, ye prisoners of starvation!

Arise, ye wretched of the earth,
For Justice thunders condemnation,
A better world's in birth.
No more tradition's chains shall bind us,
Arise, ye slaves, no more in thrall!
The earth shall rise on new foundations,
We have been naught, we shall be all!

drum roll

Chorus:

Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in their place,
The International Working Class,
Shall be the human race!

Repeat chorus


We want no condescending saviors,
To rule us from a judgement hall.
We workers ask not for their favors,
Let us consult for all!
I cannot remember these two lines,
To free something from something??
We must each one decide our duty,
We must decide & do it well!

drum roll

Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in their place,
The International Working Class,
Shall be the human race!

Repeat chorus



Is Mayday communist?
What sparked that move?

13. Mayday -> Haymarket

Mayday came out of the Haymarket Rebellion in Chicago. I think there were about 6 anarchists executed in connection with the whole thing. Mayday is not a communist holiday as if they owned it, but they do celebrate it. I think it's more of a general "working class" sort of celebration.

[GetTheRightVote]

16. Are you speaking of the Chicago 7 who rebelled in the 70s

they were anti-government and cause many problems in the city for some time.

19. No, Haymarket was in the 1890's

It caused an international uproar and started the Mayday holiday.

[Debs]

65. Mayday

Is a worldwide labor celebration created in solidarity of those AMERICAN workers fighting for a 40 hour workweek. Now its celebrated in many countries of the world and ignored here when we got a Labor day they put it as far from Mayday as possible

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleBallots]

15. The Fundie Menace

I think about 85% of the "fundie menace" is a red herring - designed to cause a social/religious fight among Americans, so they can divert everyone's attention to bullshit issues (like Christmas) while they are privatizing Social Security.

Unfortunately, Democrats seem unable to resist taking the bait. Ah well.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

17. Supreme court Justice Scalia says "democracy interfere's with God's will"

Yes, religion has been intentionally weaponized so that liberals who cite the First Amendment can be portrayed as 'anti-God/Jesus/Santa.'

But the murderous truth is almost too horrible to believe.
YOU WON'T FUCKING BELIEVE SCALIA'S OWN WORDS HERE!

He really said this. He believes in the Divine Right of Kings and says that is why government can kill "evil-doers."
(And, I suppose, torture them, too. 'Daddy sez I can torture and kill you so I must obey Him.')

Be very very afraid of this Christo-Fascist psychosis; There are many like him now in the Congress, Senate, and White House AND IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE SPANISH INQUISITION IN RED-WHITE-AND-BLUE.


Here's what Torquemada/Scalia wrote in 2002 for a speech called 'God's Justice and Ours' about the 'validity' of the death penalty.

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/scalia.htm

>snip<

"The reaction of people of faith to this tendency of democracy to obscure the divine authority behind government should not be resignation to it, but the resolution to combat it as effectively as possible.

(oh, like naming the president of your choice in 2000?-my comment)

"We have done that in this country (and continental Europe has not) by preserving in our public life many visible reminders that—in the words of a Supreme Court opinion from the 1940s—“we are a religious people, whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being.” These reminders include: “In God we trust” on our coins, “one nation, under God” in our Pledge of Allegiance, the opening of sessions of our legislatures with a prayer, the opening of sessions of my Court with “God save the United States and this Honorable Court,” annual Thanksgiving proclamations issued by our President at the direction of Congress, and constant invocations of divine support in the speeches of our political leaders, which often conclude, “God bless America.”

All this, as I say, is most un–European, and helps explain why our people are more inclined to understand, as St. Paul did, that government carries the sword as “the minister of God,” to “execute wrath” upon the evildoer."

>SNIP>

NOBODY EXPECTS...THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition

Um, since "In God We Trust" is stamped on our coins, God says we can kill and torture? THIS IS RELIGIOUS INSANITY TRANSLATED INTO MASS MURDER.

[InvisibleBallots]

18. no, I do not believe Scalia's own words - not a word that he says

Scalia is playing to his constituency, and I doubt he believes a word of what he says.

What Scalia will do is make these scary quotes - targetted towards Republicans AND Democrats - to keep the focus on divisive social issues while they steal money from the government.

They could never do it without help from the Democrats - and it's seems we cannot wait to help him.

20. As we are being marched into the ovens, there will still be some crying

"It can't happen here!!!"

[InvisibleBallots]

22. oh no, it could happen here, no doubt

I still think our attention is being diverted by this "fundie menace".

I know, I know, any and all evil things are attributed to Christians here on DU - but I just don't believe it. "What's the matter with Kansas" showed exactly how this dynamic works.

24. We're not talking about ALL Christians

This is mainly a large, well organized group of fundamentalists. Robertson, et. al.

Sometimes people cry wolf, but sometimes they're right too. I think there is plenty of supporting evidence to suggest that something has qualitatively changed in the US. The amount of religion has skyrocketed since the election.

I don't think this is a side show. A side show is something like Kobe Bryant, or a question like whether the US should have invaded Iraq with more or less troops (rather than whether the US should leave).

If something like evolution and fundamental questions of education, science and reproductive rights aren't central and important enough to defend against fundamentalism, then exactly where do you draw the line?

Is it only when people are being wholesale arrested and thrown in jail... oops we already have the highest percentage of people, out of any country in the world, in prison. And we have government sanctioned torture... oops I mean "abuse". Just like mercenaries are actually "contractors".

If Christian Fascism is a side show where is the main stage according to you?

[InvisibleBallots]

25. okay, here is my point

"Is it only when people are being wholesale arrested and thrown in jail... oops we already have the highest percentage of people, out of any country in the world, in prison. And we have government sanctioned torture... oops I mean "abuse". Just like mercenaries are actually "contractors"."

EVERY ONE of these things happened under Clinton, and no one says Clinton was a theocrat, right?

This is not about fundies - that's a sideshow.

26. Now that is a point...

I don't think that these things are necessarilly being driven by fundies per se. The fundamentalism seems to be an ideological veneer that is being put upon the these problems which have gotten worse under Bush, or at least more open and grotesque. At the same time there is an institutional structure of fundies who are unthinking footsoldiers and prepared to take things even further.

There's an aspect of this stuff which is continuous throughout american history and yet there is an aspect in which you can see something qualitatively different.

The Nazi, ideology had continuity with german philosophy and culture and yet there was a qualitative difference in the direction they took this stuff, it got much more extreme.

All signs point to fascist police state, just as all signs point to "traditional christian morality" being the ideological glue of the society these people are trying to bring into being.

[InvisibleBallots]

27. I've been hearing scare stories about the fundies since 1981

It was exaggerated then, and it's exaggerated now. Some of these fundies are really scary people, and many of them are honest to God fascists.

The vast majority of Americans don't support them. In fact, the ONLY way these fundies can get any support is by convincing Americans that the Democrats are going to ban the Bible and arresting people for praying.

Unfortunately, Democrats seem hell-bent on helping them.

Religious fights are a sideshow- I think most American agree with me.

30. Why is it exaggerated?

Because it was exaggerated in 1981, then it must be now?

Did the vasy majority of Germans support the Nazi's?

I don't know, I think they're very affective at giving "answers" to people who are looking for them, and alot of people are looking for them. This completely aside from any scare tactics they need to use with regards to the Dems.

If most Americans agree with you does that make it true? And if the media is to be believed "most Americans" actually think religion is the central issue.

[InvisibleBallots]

31. was LBJ a Nazi too?

Unfortunatly, none of the tactics being used in Iraq are any different that what Democratc Presidents did in Vietnam. Democrats have a long history of violating civil rights, secret arrests, monkey trials, etc.

Bush is not a Nazi. He's a fascist. There is a difference.

"And if the media is to be believed "most Americans" actually think religion is the central issue."

The Corporate Media is not to be believed, obviously. The "Fundie Menace" is meant to scare YOU, and it's working.

37. Didn't mean to give the impression...

That I was equating Bush and fundies in mechanical way to Nazi's. Of course there's a difference between Nazi's and Bush, but it's not that Bush is a fascist and Nazi's weren't. It has more to do with the different world we live in today. The different realities of global economic and political structure. And trhe amount of history which has gone under the bridge. But the tactics and the basic methodology of fascism is the same. The big lie, hate, preventive war, attacking democratic rights, etc.

Look I know that alot of this stuff has been going on for hundreds of years in the U.S. But it's different this time. Even during the Civil War habeas corpus wasn't thrown away (Lincoln tried, but the Supreme Court slapped him down).

[Debs]

66. I Tell

My conservative freinds that its fine for them not to be worried but I am the kind of guy they round up and put in a camp. They usually laugh but I dont think its that funny

[DaedelusNemo]

76. Could you elaborate a little? Haven't seen the book /nt

[NAO]

23. Dominionism - Hidden Agenda of the Religious Right

It is impossible to make sense of the political ambitions of the religious right without understanding the information revealed in the articles below. It is NOT just about Christians voting their values. Most Christians, if given the complete information and time to reflect, would reject this agenda.

Mainstream and even some Fundamentalist Christians have been deceived and are being used to promote this agenda. Even true Fundamentalist Christians would not support this program if they understood it, because it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ. The rise to political power of the Evangelical right is not just an unfortunate coincidence or even a spontaneous popular movement. It is a well planned, well executed power-grab with a very disturbing agenda.

The Despoiling of America
How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/StateBy Katherine Yurica
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5646.htm

This article is well documented, well researched and is critically important in understanding the religious right. It's not just about Christians voting their values.

More information on Dominionism from the author's website:

The original article.

The Despoiling of America
How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State By Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

a follow-up article by the same author:

Conquering by Stealth and Deception
How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power By Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm


Links to More Articles Revealing the Rise of Dominionism in America
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/DirectoryRiseOfDominionismInAmerica.html

[Bridget Burke]

64. This is the real story.

One recent Dominionist action: The "Merry Christmas" versus "Happy Holidays" controversy. This was stirred up to spread divisiveness & hog news coverage; it worked quite well.

The earliest article on the subject I could find was linked on Beverly LaHaye's website. She & her husband Tim are Bob Jones University alumni. He's best known as co-author of the "Left Behind" series.

It's part of the ongoing "Christianity Under Attack" theme, beloved by the Dominionists. And the roots of their movement lie in the Puritanical sort of Christianity that rejects the Popish/Pagan celebration of Christ-mass. So, they really don't care about the holiday at all--just the media noise. And most the Fundamentalists / Evangelicals who parrot some of these ideas would be appalled if they know the full Dominionist plan.

[DaedelusNemo]

75. yup, good stuff

I have only minor quibbles with any of it. The scary fundamentalists described - and i've met them, argued with them, been frightened - are a subset of fundamentalists, a subset of evangelists, a subset of christians. Some of the articles make them seem more common than they are - they're not 40% of the population. They are, however, organized very well. They claim that wealth and power are the signs of God's favor. Ask them if Osama has God's favor. You'll probably hear an expression of yearning for apocalypse that'll give you the cold sleazy creeps.

I do think that their influence with the rest of the conservative churches could be considerably reduced by a thoroughgoing exposure that is careful not to make most christians feel like they're under attack. It really is a fundamentally unchristian religion - more like the worship of Mammon, really. (When they have 'In God We Trust' on the money - well, now. What God are they talking about? God of wealth? 'Man cannot serve both God and Mammon'...)

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xerenthar]

32. Too bad Communism is still slavery.

[rman]

34. what has that got to do with anything?

-

[xerenthar]

35. Well, this is a flyer by the REVOLUTIONARY COMMUNIST PARTY?

...

[rman]

36. no, it's "Revolutionary Worker"

besides, in case your remark about communism is refering to communist Russia: communism there (especially under Stalin) had as much to with communist principals as Hitlers Nazi Germany had to do with democracy, though Hitler came to power within a democratic system. Both ended up being very undemocratic.

Any form of government can fall victim to some form of despotism, the current Bush regime is evidence of that.

Personally, i'm as left as they come, but i wouldn't want any part of communism if it isn't democratic. I'd rather have part of capitalism if it would be democratic.
But with all his concentration of economic, political and media power in the hands of a small elite, privitized elections without accoutability, there isn't much democracy left.

38. Actually

It's both. The Revolutionary Worker is the voice of the Revolutionary Communist Party.

The question of Communism is very relevant to this discussion, although it is being raised in an unprincipled, anti-communist way. One thing we are going to have to do if we want to have a revolution in this country that doesn't just take us back to the same old shit is address the problems which are often brought up as blind attacks.

I also wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Stalin as simply not being communist. I think it is important to embrace the real legacy of communism and Stalin is a part of that. Of course when I say real, I have some fundamental disagreements with the kinds of attacks brought out.

Firstly the October Revolution was a great thing. They got Russia out of the War. They gave the people of the world an example of rebellion, this was one of the primary reasons that countries like Britain, France and the U.S. invaded Russia during their Civil War. They were the first to completely legalize abortion and give women formal equality as well as more freedom than they had ever had in Russia, or that many women had or have ever had in the world. They ended feudal oppression. They completely ended serfdom which in Russia was essentially slavery. They organized people to get educations and became one of the most literate societies in the world.

Even Stalin did some good things. He defeated the Germans, who had been unleashed by the U.S. and other imperialist nations to be a buffer against the Soviet Union. He strengthened the productive ability of the Soviet Union. He created amazing public works. And I would just like to add that if you go to Russia you will find a very large portion of the Russian people, especially those who lived during Stalin, wish that he was back. I remember when I saw Lenin's tomb there were people in front of me crying, not because they hated him, but because they loved him and what he stood for. I would also like to add that life in Russia today is immensely worse than it was under the "Communists". Having said all that, if we can't do better than they did in the early part of the 20th century then perhaps there is no point in trying. I believe we can and must do better.

Secondly I disagree with the idea that democracy should be our ultimate goal. This comes from an understanding of what democracy is which is not widely held. Democracy and Dictatorship exist hand in hand. You cannot divorce the two from eachother. They are two sides of the same coin. Looking at early greek democracies, upon which the U.S. was partially based, one finds that democracy was always reserved for a small elite, while dictatorship was excercised by this elite upon everyone else. This program especially fir what the founding fathers wanted because just as in Greece thousands of years before it is an excellent system for maintaining slavery, while allowing for "innovation". In the U.S. democracy was reserved for the elite formally until at least the 60's. And in reality it is still controlled by the elite.

Democracy is for the Bourgeoisie dictatorship is for everyone else. Freedom of speech is respected as long as you uphold the system, while if you contradict it's imperatives you are at the very least marginalized and many times much worse. There is a reason that black people don't generally like cops, because they are the very real face of dictatorship to those people who are the focus of control in this country. For the middle class often times these realities are blurred by ideologies like patriotism and consumerism. But no matter what class you are from if you contradict this system, it's myths and it's lies, then you reap the whirlwind.

What we need to do is supercede the concept of democracy and with it dictatorship. We need a society of freely associating human beings. We can never have this with democracy or dictatorship. We need revolution. Constant upheaval and revolutionizing of productive relations, property relations, and the ideas that go along with these relations. We need to be firmly fixed on truth as a starting point and be completely open to discussion and argumentation from all sides, as a way to continue to move forward. Struggle is the impetus for all social advancement. A socialist revolution will help to facilitate this with the ultimate goal of ending itself, the state, and the communist party, while at the same time providing for peoples basic needs and not so basic needs.

This is as good as democracy gets. If we can't do better than that then we're not going to last much longer. As Avakian says we can do better than democracy.

These speeches by Avakian go much deeper into this: "Elections, Democracy and Dictatorship, Resistance and Revolution" http://bobavakian.net/

"Dictatorship and Democracy and the Socialist Transition to Communism"
http://rwor.org/chair_e.htm#democracyspeech

"Epistemology- On Knowing and Changing the World" http://rwor.org/a/1262/avakian-epistemology.htm

This is new stuff. This isn't the same old shit. This IS revolutionary.

For the anti-communist stuff I would just say that you have an incomplete picture of the truth at best. Most of the verdicts that are reproduced by anti-communists comes directly from the McCarthyist House UnAmerican Activities Committee. Hardly a impartial group of people who have been discreditied over and over again. While I can't go into every mistake that was made by communists or every lie ever told about them I would suggest checking out this article about the truth of the Cultural Revolution in China:

http://rwor.org/a/1251/communism_socialism_mao_china_facts.htm

[Benson]

40. Spare Me the CRAP.

"Even Stalin did some good things. He defeated the Germans, who had been unleashed by the U.S. and other imperialist nations to be a buffer against the Soviet Union."

Stalin is a mass murderer! The genocide he created in the Ukrain dwarfed the holocaust. Stalin is burning in HELL!

And NAZI Germany was unleashed by the US and the Imperialist west to go after Russia? This is just way too moronic!
History screams that is a lie! Tell that to the millions who died on D-Day.
You might sell this to the mentally handicapped, but people with an education will only laugh at you.


Communism is dead. It has nothing to offer.

[xerenthar]

43. A hateful dead ideology of slavery.

Communism is forcing men to work for others -- slavery, involuntary servitude, etc.

[rman]

48. yeah right, and capitalism doesn't force people to work for others?

in capitalism isn't it the workers who do the bulk of the labor while the owners reap the bulk of the profits?

[xerenthar]

50. People work of their own free will, Rise and fall of their own merits.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is slavery, it forces men to be 100% altruistic.

[rman]

54. so.. there's no benefit in being part of society?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is social.
to grab what you can and to disregard others is anti-social.

[countryjake]

55. Democratic centralism

I think what people here are missing is the criticism/self criticism that was the basis of the communist ideology. Each example of failed socialism (there has never been a communist society in our world) were governments who abandoned the democratic centralist method of keeping despotism in check. If people could study the mistakes of the Bolsheviks (in an unbiased educational arena) & then examine how Stalin was allowed to go about his frantic "cleansing" by many others who recognized their system was under attack from "outside" forces; they had encountered unknown problems with no previous "fixes" ever before attempted, so they panicked & abandoned democratic centralism...learn from those mistakes.

Struggles for socialism/communism are inevitable, natural flows toward a system which benefits all, with the power rising from the bottom up & ongoing criticism of anything NOT beneficial to the whole & self criticism by those who may think they're on the right track, but allow individual self-interests to get the better of them. Without democratic centralism & constant analyzing of each new situation, previous systems were doomed to fail...that doesn't mean it can't be done & diverse needs examined & met to truly benefit all aspects of society, as the whole.

[Debs]

68. Oh Yeah

Bush really rose on HIS merits, what planet do you live on. Bush bankrupted every bussiness he ever ran never succeded in anything including his national gaurd commitment where he was derilict in his duty and became the President of the US. The worker is divorced from the fruit of his labor if everyone working in my industry did their job 10% more efficiently and with 10% less costs say that made my industry 15% more profitable those who did NOTHING toward that raise in profitability, the stockholders would benifit the upper management would give themselves huge bonuses and I would not see a dime. If you are going to blame Stalins crimes on Communism I guess you need to blame Hitler's, Suharto's, Idi Amin's, and Rios Montt's on Capitalism.

I actually think the arguement about Communism and Capitalism are like argueing about whether to take a Ford or a Chevy to the top of the Hill (that being a just society in this analogy) Either can get you there. The thing to keep an eye on is not allowing the Ford/Chevy debate to derail you from focusing on the top of the mountain as your goal and allow the debate to become the focus instead.

[Debs]

69. Gee

That reminds me of the biblical assertion that from whom much is given, much is expected.

[DaedelusNemo]

77. If taken too far, sure - everybody should have pursuit of happiness /nt

[Cats Against Frist]

79. Not if it's voluntary

I'm a libertarian socialists, in other words, a communist of sorts. What you're arguing against is state socialism, with which I will agree with you, until the cows come home. But, are you going to argue against my right to establish community with like-mined devotees of altruism? If the answer is "yes," you are no better or different from the state socialists. (And just for reference, having a welfare state does not make a country "socialist").

[InvisibleBallots]

46. Nazi Germany was paid for by the West - the Bush family in particular

You should learn about it. Don't believe me look it up.

[Benson]

52. No, thats more CRAP.

No one in the west created the NAZI gov't in Germany.

I went to college. I majored in History. I teach. I deal with truth.
Thats just crap.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

53. Um, teacher? Do some homework. google 'Prescott Bush+Nazis'

Or try this on for size:

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html
(The Nazi Hydra in America)

You'd be amazed what you'd learn if you actually...just look.

[Benson]

57. Fable. People believe because they WANT it to be true. Sorry. (NT)

[InvisibleBallots]

61. pretty well documented for a fable

War seizures controversy

Harriman Bank was the main Wall Street connection for German companies and the varied U.S. financial interests of Fritz Thyssen, who had been an early financial backer of the Nazi party until 1938, but who by 1939 had fled Germany and was bitterly denouncing Hitler. Dealing with Nazi Germany wasn't illegal until Hitler declared war on the US, but, six days after Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt signed the Trading With the Enemy Act. On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City.

Prescott Bush's business interests seized under the act in October and November 1942 included:

* Union Banking Corporation (UBC) (for Thyssen and Brown Brothers Harriman)
* Holland-American Trading Corporation (with Harriman)
* the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation (with Harriman)
* Silesian-American Corporation (with Walker)

Bush's interest in UBC consisted of one share. For it, he was reimbursed $1,500,000. These assets were later used to launch Bush family investments in the Texas energy industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush

[InvisibleBallots]

58. I guess you are uninformed

you majored in history, and you teach - and you don't know anything about the financing of the Nazi, collaboration by US financial interests and industrial concerns with them? What exactly are you teaching your kids?

[Benson]

59. Some people believe the earth is flat.

And all that belief doesn't make it any less round.

beleive what you want. But I will teach the truth.

[InvisibleBallots]

60. Well, facts are facts

The fact that Prescott Bush had his share of Union Banking Corporation seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act in the 1940s is the truth, it's documented and by now well known. The fact that IBM collaborated with the Nazi regime openly, and continued to do so after the war began secretly, is the truth, and it's documented. The fact that leading industrialists in the United States supported Hitler is the truth.

You can ignore it if you wish, but you are not doing anyone any favors.

[DaedelusNemo]

78. Perhaps too strong an assertion

Yes, Prescott Bush had dealings with German companies during the Nazi regime. He is therefore arguably guilty, to some extent, of helping to support what was going on. But he had dealings with a lot of foreign companies, and so did lots of people. I see it as being analogous to companies who were dealing with South Africa during apartheid. It's certainly something to be critical of, but equating it with collusion with the actions of that regime is arguably a step too far. Do you know of any indication, for example, that Prescott Bush or IBM knew of the plans for Holocaust?

[Debs]

71. Yes

And some people believe George Bush is an honest man. The siezure of assets from the Bush family for Nazi collaboration is a historical FACT get over it

73. LOL...

A History teacher in the U.S. that deals with truth, laughable. I think you mean you deal with truth*.

* George Washington could not tell a lie.
* The U.S. won WWII and saved the world.
* The purpose of the Civil War was to free the slaves.
* Democracy. Freedom. Star Spangled Banner. Christopher Columbus. Equality. Soaring Eagles. Christian Soldiers. The Pilgrims. blah blah blah.

These are all examples of the lies and misrepresentations that count for truth in this country. The larger truth is always obscurred or simply ommitted. As a History major you should know that History is a very biased subject full of all kinds of agendas and interpretations. The question I would ask you is what "truth" did you learn, what are the sources. As a good historian you should give sources regularly for your assertions. I think the foreward to Howard Zinn has some interesting things to say about truth with regards to History. Maybe you should check it out.

[rman]

47. Old Greek democracy vs Renaissance democracy

Yes the Greek had this elitist form of democracy, the Romans had something simmilar iirc. But that is not contemporary democracy. The contemporary idea about democracy originates at the start of the era of enlightenment, the Renaissance. Today it might be called radical democracy as promoted by modern socialists.
The main difference is that not only a small elite but all the people have the right to vote. It is governance by, for and of the people. It requires transparency of government, freedom of information, seperation of church and state, that sort of thing. In fact the US system of government is the first implementation of these (then radical new) ideas about governance.
I don't see what this kind of democracy has to do with dictatorship. Also i think this shows that democracy in the west isn't really democracy, just as Stalin's communism wasn't really communism.

Wouldn't a society of freely associating human beings still have the need for agreement within society on certain issues? Can't we only have a society of freely associating human beings if that is what a majority wants?
Such a society would lack the highly centralized control and concentration of powers that we have today but in my view it would still be democratic.

Your idea that democracy is a form of dictatorship also flies in the face of the notion that despotism is the opposite of democracy (see "Despotism", Encyclopedia Britannica 1946).
It wasn't me but xerenthar who remarked that "communism is slavery".
I'm not anti-communist, i'm anti-anti-democratic. I'm opposed to any kind of governance - no matter what it is called - where not the majority but a minority makes the big decissions.

74. Show me

Any democracy that was actually founded upon equality or rule of majority. The majority rules doctrine has always been limited by who could vote. If you look at the U.S. there has never been an election where the majority of people participated let alone determined the outcome. While, as time progressed more sectors of society were granted the formal right to vote, and yet disenfranchisement continues and clearly there is a small class of people making all the decisions and excluding others. The rennaissance form of democracy if you want to call it that always carried with it an asterisk next to its universal proclimations. It is one of the interesting aspects of the developement of bourgoeis dictatorship that it has been able to manipulate history and even the meaning of words and ideas over time to fit its needs.

Absolutely, what I was saying flies in the face of the idea that democracy is the opposite of dictatorship. But I would just clarify one thing: it's not that democracy is a form of dictatorship it's that dictatorship and democracy cannot exist without one another. They are dialectically linked. It is like master to slave. You can't have one without the other. The only way to get rid of one is to get rid of the relationship or process which gives them meaning, and thereby get rid of them both.

[Debs]

67. Really? Slavery?

Then why is it that Breznev worked in a Steelmill before he went into politics and became the leader of the Soviet Union. Tell me when the last time a laborer became the president of the United States? Oh thats right IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED. Why is the left so quick to repeat right wing talking points as if they made sense. The bottom line is that Communists and Capitalists have played this game for decades where the Communists pretended that only economic rights existed and not political rights and Capitalists pretended that only political rights existed and not economic rights. Niether one is slavery and niether one is totally free. Remember Roosevelt, freedom from want was one of his four freedoms.

[Benson]

39. Communism had its chance and FAILED.

The Soviet Union collapsed-not due to the West, but under the weight of its own corruption. Stalin and his sucessors murdered millions of their own people in a deliberate genocide of Ukrainians.

DU is a Democratic board. A call for Communist Revolution is a futile diversion from what we should really be doing: Getting bush out of office-not 4 years from now, but NOW!

I'm not done with Democracy yet.

[Debs]

70. You act like

Communism and democracy are mutually exclusive, Democracy is a form of government and Communism is a form of economy. The Sandanistas were democratically elected Communists. If you are going to blame Communism for Stalin I guess you have to blame Capitalism for Hitler, Suharto, Rios Montt and Idi Amin. I see the communism/capitalism debate like argueing whether to take a Ford or a Chevy to the top of a hill (the top of the hill in this analogy being a just society) either can take you there and the point is to keep your eye on the top of the hill and not get bogged down on the argument about which vehicle is better. As long as the focus is kept where it belongs the vehicle is of secondary importance. For decades the communists and capitalists have used this diversion from the focus to pretend that only they were providing freedom. Communists pretended that only economic rights exist not political rights and Capitalists pretend only political rights exist and not economic rights. A just society demand both. There can be no serious arguement that the Sandanistas did not raise the standard of living for the vast majority of Nicaraguans nor that they were not freer politically than under the Butcher Somoza. Now that bar was pretty low. Again the focus needs to be on the goal not the vehicle. We dont want communism fine then lets provide the economic security that communism would if it were here with some adjustments to the economic Darwinism that we are currently living under. Whatever the means we must always keep that just society as our goal

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GOPBasher]

42. Christian Theocracy is coming.

[w4rma]

45. This guy is egocentric. (nt)

[Carl Brennan]

51. Redundant

Religion, in so far as it is a political force, reinforces fascistic tendencies by dumbing down its adherents to accept the big lie.


The size of a lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves tell little lies but would be ashamed to tell big ones.
Adolf Hitler - “Mein Kampf"

This may explain why Hitler believed in Christianity. It serves fascists well.

[Karenina]

63. Kick!

:kick:

[outrage]

62. Christian Facism is Real and it's here...

This is absolutely true. If anyone thinks you exagerate, they should go to Freerepublic.com. This site has some of the most rabid Christian Fascists I've ever had the misfortune of coming across. They are no better than the Taliban, and I have no doubt that if they are allowed to completely follow through with their plans they will yank women out of schools just like the Taliban. Freepers have told me how they believe women belong exclusively at home, that gay people are sick in the head and evil, fetuses are human persons from the moment of conception and feminists are communists. They also don't believe there is an AIDS epidemic, that people are poor because they are morally bankrupt and the separation of church and state is A MYTH. It's un-freaking-believable.

[robbedvoter]

72. Partly right. Doesn't call the theft, and as for socialism...same s* as

BFEE - just in the name of different "values". I take democracy over both.

[xchrom]

81. christian facsists are tools

of the corporate oligarchy -- it's a limited parthership with, of course the oligarcy gaining the most.
and conservative christians get ''family values''.
corporatists are defintely in the drivers seat and most of them are non-believers. or ''in name only''.
many are after things like tax reduction and more capitol gains reform. but, they are also intending on staying in power.
i can understand this threat the way you describe it here if it means seperating corporatist from their foot soldiers -- but the foot soldiers are not the real threat.