name a politican, besides clinton, who benefited from moving to the center

[UpsideDownFlag]

i cant think of one. Daschle? All those southern senators that got unseated? throughout the years of clinton centrism, Bill won, but the party lost.

moving to the center is not the answer. it makes it appear that our opponents goals are correct, and makes them move farther right.

period.

[Inland]

1. Name a democrat whose won national office besides Clinton.

Carter, a southern born again moderate.

Nuff said.

[UpsideDownFlag]

2. well, okay. elaborates my point a bit.

besides clinton, centrism has gotten us NOTHING. nowhere. and now is certainly not the time to keep it up.

[Inland]

6. Nothing besides eight years of peace and prosperity.

If you really think that Clinton being president got us nowhere, then why are you bothering?

Fact is, if moving to the center wins elections, its good enough for me. People are getting killed, the treasury is being looted, the environment being degraded and the country turned over to yahoos and know-nothings. Time to discard litmus tests.

[ulysses]

17. "then why are you bothering?"

I obviously don't speak for UpsideDownFlag, but I bother because I'm a Democrat. Clinton was better than GWB, but a napa cabbage would have been better than GWB.

[Inland]

42. In which case, we wouldn't be asking what good has been done

electing a cabbage. Yet, UpsideDownFlag asks what moderation got us, I say Clinton, and he is unimpressed. I'll take Clinton and any other cabbage. Republicans, from moderate (Bush I), to conservative (Reagan), to powermad protofascists (Gingrich, Delay), to nutbag conservative millenarian craven powermad protofasicits (Bush II) are a disaster. Any position that keeps them out and us in is worth taking, and we have seen moderate politicians do just that.

[ulysses]

56. thus, we come to the crux of the thing.

I'll take Clinton and any other cabbage.

I won't. You do as you will.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. I Hate Cabbage But It Beats Starving...

It's like a guy at a club at closing time ....All the threes and fours have miracously become sixs and sevens....

[ulysses]

92. yes, and we have a name for that guy.

"loser".

[Lone Pawn]

93. And we have a name for the guy who only goes for 10s.

"virgin."

And in politics, we have a name for the party that only goes for 10s.

"Powerless minority."

[lastliberalintexas]

95. Well,

I'd say that pretty much describes the Dem party right now. So are you saying that we're currently too far left?

[Lone Pawn]

101. We don't have a coherant platform.

We just have a collection of thousands of people with their own issues that they won't give an inch on, but are more than happy to compromise on everyone else's issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. Exactly....

I'm pro gay marriage, pro decriminalization of all victimless crimes, and pro decriminalization of drugs with an emphasis on rehabilitation and incarceration....


Should I dump the Dems for the Libertarians or Greens because they are closer to me on these issues?

[ulysses]

111. that's up to you.

I'll bet you have a breaking point, though. Mine was welfare "reform".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. People Of Good Faith Can Differ On Welfare Policy..

Same thing with trade, the best way make sure everybody has access to quality health care, etcetera but I will leave the party in a minute if it abandons it's commitment to equal rights for all...

[ulysses]

140. yes, and people of good faith can also differ on what

"equal rights for all" entails, and thus come to different conclusions about what they want out of a political party. You say tomato...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. rehabilitation and (not) incarceration

and decriminalizing drugs and victimless crimes is redundant

[ulysses]

108. you'd have a point

if the "ideological purity" smear was true. Since it isn't, thanks for playing.

[UpsideDownFlag]

125. thanks for playing indeed....nt

[Lone Pawn]

128. The party doesn't have purity, and I never said it did.

But it's composed of thousands of people, each of whom insist on their own ideological purity. Thanks for playing, though. Perhaps someday you'll learn to read the whole post.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

97. i thought the loser was the guy that goes home with rosie

JACKSON BROWNE lyrics - "Rosie"


But Rosie you're all right - you wear my ring
When you hold me tight - Rosie that's my thing
When you turn out the light - I've got to hand it to me
Looks like it's me and you again tonight Rosie

[UpsideDownFlag]

91. which brings us back to my post farther below...

"Let's sell ourselves out, with a smile and righteous indignation to boot".

Sacrificing our values for political expediency is just plain wrong.

[Inland]

100. Actually, you took worse. Bush won. Remember?

Fact is, you don't get to decide what "to take" if Bush gets more votes. You get to take what he gives you just like the rest of us. You can only decide who to vote for, or support. If deciding not to support a moderate gets you Bush, you can have your personal purity. Me, I look at the body count and decide that I can't indulge myself at the expense of the country.

The crux of the thing is that you would rather have Bush I, II or Dole win than support a moderate democrat. You would rather not have had Clinton. Well. Do as you will. Just don't pretend that is isn't the result you wanted.

[ulysses]

109. this is what leads me to posts like mine the other day

in which I asked if moderates could do all this alone or if they would like the left's help. I can support a moderate Democrat, but I want *some* say in how things go. It's called "compromise".

Me, I look at the body count and decide that I can't indulge myself at the expense of the country.

I followed a very similar line of thought the first time I voted Green.

[Inland]

137. But you aren't even compromising with ME

except on a strategic level--on how best to win.

Most of those espousing moderation, centrism, incrementalism, what have you, are simply realizing that you are compromising with the voting public. Or at least, and I really believe that this has NOT been done, allowing that they have to be convinced.

Moreover, there have been plenty of posts in DU that start with "I will NOT" and they have come from the farther left.

Fact is, having some say in how things go means electing democrats. If that isn't the goal, then this situation we are in now has got to be better than allowing for compromise with the country at large. I don't accept that.

[UpsideDownFlag]

89. can you understand....

that all we had was clinton? what good does it do when they own the house? and the senate? and the media? and the governer seats?

yes, i am unimpressed with clinton, and yes- i will stick by my original claim: Clinton and the DLC won, but the democratic party as a whole lost. just look at where we are now. I dont see how it can be argued any other way.

[UpsideDownFlag]

28. of course i have no problem with 8 years of p/p

but my point was, what has it gained us, politically.

[ClassWarrior]

3. Clinton didn't benefit from moving to the center.

He benefited at first because he's charming and GHWBush looked like an out-of-touch boob. And then Clinton benefited from sympathy over the Radical RW's attempted coup on him.

No Democrat has ever benefitted from moving to the right.

NGU.

[Inland]

14. Nuts. Clinton was nominated, ran and governed as a moderate

A DLC moderate. Balanced budgets. Era of big government is over. Welfare reform. Incrementalism.

Clinton's entire strategy to govern was "triangulation", or positioning himself between the congressional caucuses of both parties.

That's what he did, and if you want to say he didn't benefit from it, I guess you would have to argue with him, because he did it for eight years and ended up a great success.

[UpsideDownFlag]

30. and where did the party end up because of that?

do we own the house? senate? anything?

nooooo, i didnt think so.

[Inland]

46. The party ended up in the White House, for eight years.

How'd that work out for the party? For the nation?

Pretty good, all in all.

[UpsideDownFlag]

64. Bill Clinton is not the party. overall, the party lost during the past 12

years.

[Inland]

65. And did the party move to the center?

If it did, then maybe the next nominees would have done better.

I don't understand arguing with success in an election that puts a man with even a faint resemblance to your personal agenda in office. If the political center advocated killing kittens, I would agree that moderation is a vice. But I think that there is no substitute for beating republicans in elections. No, I KNOW there is no substitute for beating republicans in elections. There isn't even a close second.

[UpsideDownFlag]

68. *sigh*. besides the presidential race, which races has centrism one?

how hard do i have to try and explain that it was bad for the party overall? yes, it won (possibly, arguably,) Clinton the white house twice. How well did we fare in the house, senate, and gubernatorial races between then and now?

[Inland]

99. "Aside from that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

So there's this position that moderation and Clinton centrism managed to get people to vote for him and against all other democrats? I don't think so.

I don't know who is winning in your state, but I know who is winning here in Illinois. Not lefties, and not republicans. Two centrist senators, democrats, a centrist governor, democrat, and two houses of state legislature, controlled by democrats.

[greenohio]

127. Dodd, Landriu, Feinstein, Cantwell, Rendell, Stabenow....must you ask?

Give it up. There are dozens of DLC Dems. Why must people demonize fellow Dems. It is really getting old.

[ArkDem]

84. during Clinton's administration, the Democrats lost:

- 48 seats in the House
- 8 seats in the Senate
- 11 governorships
- 1,254 state legislative seats
- Control of 9 legislatures
In addition 439 elected Democrats had joined the Republican Party while only three Republican officeholders had gone the other way.
While Democrats had been losing state legislative seats on the state level for 25 years, the loss during the Clinton years was striking. In 1992, the Democrats controlled 17 more state legislatures than the Republicans. After November 2000, the Republicans controlled one more than the Democrats. It was the first time since 1954 that the GOP had controlled more state legislatures than the Democrats (they tied in 1968). Among other things, this gave the Republican more control over redistricting.
In fact, no Democratic president since the 19th century suffered such an electoral disintegration of his party as did Clinton.

[Bush was AWOL]

86. That had more to do with his liberal policies and sexual shenanigans

like gays in the military, list of accusations from Gingrich and Monica.

[CTLawGuy]

8. he ran against Ford..

Nuff said.

One data point does not a study make...

[Inland]

16. And if that were the only election...

Seems to me that we have plenty of data. Democrats have been losing from close to huge, except for southern moderates, since the Beach Boys.

Who I would run if they were democrats and could be the Bush heir.

[CTLawGuy]

22. a whole bunch of southern moderates lost recently

Max Cleland in GA,
Jean Carnahan in MO (ok a midwestern moderate)
GA Gov. Roy Barnes,
US Rep Chris John, LA (ran for senate, lost to Rep. David Vitter)
Inez Tennenbaum, SC (Lost senate race to Far Right Republican)
Brad Carson, OK (Lost to definitely-NOT-MODERATE Coburn)

[Inland]

34. In conservative states.

If moderates can't win in Georgia, they can't win in Georgia. They probably can, but that's not the point.

Moderation can win a national election. It's been done. Can moving left?

[ulysses]

4. Cleland.

Oh, wait...

[UpsideDownFlag]

24. my point exactly. Moving to the center does not make you immune

to the noise machine, either.

[Hippo_Tron]

141. Cleland lost because he didn't fight back...

Chambliss' ads with Saddam Hussein, in my mind, were a cue for "this is what we are up against." Cleland should've painted him as a draft dodging motherfucker who wouldn't know Patriotism if it hit him on the head.

[jrthin]

5. I don't necessarily

think that even Clinton's move to the center helped him much. I think what helped Clinton was the fact that the rethuglicans hadn't quite perfected the art of stealing elections. Today, they have that art form down to a science.

[Julien Sorel]

7. Name a politician, any politician, who

benefited from moving left.

By the way, do you think Daschle would have done better by moving to the left? In fact, Daschle started his career in the center and stayed there, in some cases moving left for the sake of the party when he was in a leadership role. But I suppose to find that out you would actually have to care about the truth, rather than making some kind of ideoligical statement.

Period.

[ClassWarrior]

10. Russ Feingold, Barack Obama, Dennis Kucinich, Paul Wellstone...

For starters.

NGU.

[ulysses]

13. Cynthia McKinney

:thumbsup:

[ClassWarrior]

15. My own new Congressperson, Gwen Moore!

You GO Gwen!!

NGU.

[ulysses]

20. my local state rep, Karla Drenner.

First openly gay elected offical in the south, iirc. :)

Julien? You still around?

[UpsideDownFlag]

90. I think Julien decided to just stick with attacking leftism. nt

[lastliberalintexas]

102. That depends

Is Texas considered Southern? I know some people classify us as Southern or SWern, depending on what region of the state they've focused on.

Anyhoo, we had an openly gay state legislator by the name of Glen Maxey *years* ago- believe it, or not. He was heading up the Texas DFA during the campaigns, and I think he still is.

And Dallas County now has an openly gay Hispanic female SHERIFF. Top that. ;-)

[ulysses]

110. Texas is its own universe, isn't it?

:P

And Dallas County now has an openly gay Hispanic female SHERIFF. Top that. ;-)

The earth didn't split asunder? Oh, the humanity! :D

[Julien Sorel]

18. None of them "moved to the left."

They are all from liberal states, or in the case of Feingold a state with a strong progressive tradition. But since you threw them out:

John Breaux. Mary Landrieu. John Edwards. In fact, every elected Democrat in the South. Bill Nelson. Byron Dorgan. Evan Bayh. Stephanie Herseth (more conservative than Daschle, and won in his state. What do you know?) Harry Reid. Brian Schweitzer. The list of "centrists" who win in red states is as long as the list of liberals who win, period, if not far longer. That's not counting the centrists who win in moderate states. But don't let that interrupt your brilliant analysis. Remember: facts are inconveniences which should be avoided at all times and all costs.

[ulysses]

21. LOL - "They are all from liberal states"

I reiterate - Cynthia McKinney. :D

[Julien Sorel]

25. ROFL

Cynthia McKinney represents a district that is 55% black. The real race in that district is the Democratic primary -- which McKinney lost two years ago for being too radical.

Gee, I wish I were smart and knowledgeable, just like you. Maybe one day...

[ulysses]

31. "Cynthia McKinney represents a district that is 55% black."

Is it a race thing for you, then? Bear in mind that she lost it to another black woman two years ago. That same woman just lost the race for Zell Miller's Senate seat.

Your target keeps shifting, Julien, and so do you.

which McKinney lost two years ago for being too radical.

The same McKinney just won reelection in the same district. You might try googling "republican crossover votes 2002".

Gee, I wish I were smart and knowledgeable, just like you. Maybe one day...

Goals are good. :D

[ClassWarrior]

35. Snap!!!

You rock.

NGU.

[UpsideDownFlag]

36. let's sell ourselves out- with a smile and righteous indignation, to boot.

it's frustrating, isn't it?

[Julien Sorel]

37. This is funny.

McKinney is somehow an example of how being liberal wins elections, but she sits in one of the safest seats in the country -- and blew that. She won this year because the woman who beat her in the primary two years ago decided to run for the Senate; otherwise she would have been in a tough fight to reclaim a seat she should never have lost in the first place.

But other than that, only a moron would point to Cynthia McKinney as an example of how liberalism wins elections, in anything but a ludicrously gerrymandered district like the one she represents. Find someone with McKinney's politics who wins in a normal district and you might have a point, but you won't, because there is no such animal.

[ClassWarrior]

40. Yeah, it's her fault and not those cheating crossover Republicans, right?

She blew it, right?? Just WHO is the enemy to you, Julien?

NGU.

[UpsideDownFlag]

44. "Just WHO is the enemy to you, Julien?"

better be careful, they might not want to say.

[ClassWarrior]

45. LOL.

NGU.

[Forkboy]

49. Anyone to the left of him

[lastliberalintexas]

103. Or left of Zell Miller, apparently

[Julien Sorel]

50. However she lost, she lost.

And the fact remains she represents one of the most liberal districts in this country, which allows her to be the politician she is.

This isn't about McKinney, by the way, but the incredibly fucking stupid assertion that centrists don't win elections. Remember that?

[ulysses]

55. and then she won again. 6th term.

:D

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. The Larger Point Is True...

You or I could win a House seat if we ran in the right district...

I live in Seminole County, Florida... Someone with my views could never be elected but I bet if I ran in Corrine Brown's district I could win if I was the Democratic candidate

They are gerrymandered to Hell....

[ulysses]

54. let's recap. your challenge was thus:

"Name a politician, any politician, who benefited from moving left."

We've named several.

But other than that, only a moron would point to Cynthia McKinney as an example of how liberalism wins elections, in anything but a ludicrously gerrymandered district like the one she represents.

Right - a district in metro Atlanta can't be majority black unless it's gerrymandered. I'll be looking for your attack on John Lewis any minute now.

[Julien Sorel]

57. Now, let's really recap.

The OP, in a post that was stupid even by the extant standards of DU, claims that Clinton was the only politician who "moved to the center" and won. The implication being, centrism loses. I asked for politicians who had moved to the left and won, and got back people who have never "moved" anywhere, and besides, sit in liberal districts or states. Hardly a fair comparison, is it? I pointed out the names of many, many centrists who have won, and make a further point: far more centrists win in red areas than liberals win in the rest of the country. Desperate to avoid that unpleasant fact, it became a little battle around McKinney, and everyone ignores the gross stupidity of the original post.

Hey, it ain't honest, it ain't smart, it ain't informed: it's just a bunch of people shooting the shit, not caring they don't even know what they're talking about.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, reading this message board wouldn't have to be told why Democrats lose. And I have a hint for you: it has nothing to do with the DLC. People will take the religious nuts of the right over the just plain nuts of the left any day of the week, and I can hardly blame them.

[Forkboy]

59. Well,this comes as a shock!

People will take the religious nuts of the right over the just plain nuts of the left any day of the week, and I can hardly blame them.

or maybe it doesn't come as a shock :shrug:

[ClassWarrior]

66. It's always the cover-up that trips them up.

The Party of Nixon. Undermining Democracy Since 1960.

NGU.

[ulysses]

60. wank, wank. you've been answered

no matter how you want to spin the answers.

[UpsideDownFlag]

69. "The OP, in a post that was stupid even by the extant standards of DU"

I can't understand why it is so hard to grasp. Look at the past 15 years. shoot, longer than that. are dems better off, or worse off?

[Julien Sorel]

78. You win the reasoning award of the day.

The Democrats lost therefore ... what?

[UpsideDownFlag]

71. oh, by the way- "even by the standards of DU"? what's that mean?

you think DUers are stupid? or is it that they're not stupid, just less articulate and righteous than YOU?

[Forkboy]

73. His avatar might provide a clue

:)

[Julien Sorel]

75. Where did "articulate and righteous"

come from? The claims of righteousness come from some place other than me, pal. I suggest you take a little peek around this place.

And if people who think Clinton was the only centrist who won aren't stupid, I don't know what is. But seriously, look around this place. Look at the posts, the reasoning -- the lack of it, I should say. Look at this thread: as soon as it became obvious the OP was full of shit, people tried running away into nonsense and personal attacks on me. Yet the OP is, I'm sure, just as sure he or she is right as they were when they started, facts be damned.

The truth is, I've seen drunks arguing over a football game in a bar who make more sense than many of the people here.

[UpsideDownFlag]

77. why is the OP full of shit? As the author of it, i think it's pretty

valid. Clinton gained from centrism, yes. however, the democratic party as a whole lost. i dont see how you could argue that the dems are in a better position now than they were historically.

[Julien Sorel]

79. Then demonstrate how centrism made Democrats lose.

Last week, a former colleague had chest pains. He went to the doctor, who ran some tests, then hospitalized him pending emergency surgery. That night, he had a heart attack. The doctor caused the heart attack, the bastard!!!!!

[Forkboy]

80. I'm still trying to figure out the Tinoire thing

:shrug:

[UpsideDownFlag]

88. see post 84. nt

[Julien Sorel]

I said *how*, not what happened. Try again. Try for the first time.

But you won't, because you can't. But the drone will go on and on.

[UpsideDownFlag]

135. tell you what. why do YOU think it happened? we know why I think it did.

but apparently, that's not correct.

[Forkboy]

48. Maybe one day...

...a thousand years down the line...

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

52. Why complete a sentence?

You have lots of words but still manage to say nothing :shrug:

[Julien Sorel]

53. You made it!

Now, about that thinking.

Good one, Tinoire!

[Forkboy]

58. I dont get the Tinoire thing

do you think her and I are the same person?

Good one,Rush! :silly:

[eridani]

63. She lost because of Rethug crossover

She got more votes in her loss than in her general election win two years prior. The Rethugs got a double victory--taking out McKinney, and also Bob Barr, who, though as nasty a culture warrior as they come, was also a hardass constitutionalist not at all on board with the neocons about the PATRIOT Act.

[JI7]

74. Ken Salazar also

although i'm not sure he "moved" to the right but he ran as a conservative/moderate democrat. he supports vouchers, went after his Republican opponent for OPPOSING the death penalty, opposes late term abortion,talked about how religious he is and will start group in the senate which consists of conservative/moderate leaning democrats which is supposed to be some spin off of the dlc.

Coors support for lowering the legal drinking age and his companies support of gay rights also got many religious conservatives to vote for Salazar.

[Mike L]

82. He was the only candidate I contributed to who actually won this year.

Small bright spot in an otherwise crappy election year.

[Lone Pawn]

94. Hurray! 7 out of hundreds of Democratic legislators!

What an awesome trend!

[ulysses]

112. "Name a politician, any politician"

The task wasn't to name all of them. But then, you knew that.

[UpsideDownFlag]

118. it doesn't matter...he got his shot off. nt

[UpsideDownFlag]

145. lol....nt

[CTLawGuy]

19. clinton

when he ran on universal health care in 1992.

Harris Wofford, who upset powerful attorney general Dick Thornburgh in a special election for US senate in PA in 1991. No, he didnt run ads showing how much he worked with then-President George H.W. Bush, he ran ads that said that health care should be a right, just like access to a lawyer is a right.

Al Gore really picked up in the polls in 2000 when he started his "people vs. the powerful" message.

In 2002, Mary Landrieu came back to defeat Bush-backed Suzanne Haik Terrell in the LA US senate runoff election. She ran, not by kissing Bush's ass, but by criticizing him over a deal with Mexican sugar companies that would hurt LA sugar growers.

[UpsideDownFlag]

33. see post 13....geez.

:eyes:

[ArtVandaley]

104. Robert Kennedy

nm

[TheFarseer]

9. A liberal will not occupy the white house for many years

figure it out. There's reason the last two democratic presidents were from the south. I don't think a non-south or midwest democrat can win the presidency. They just won't appeal to enough people otherwise.

[ClassWarrior]

12. As long as you drink that Kool-Aid, it'll be true.

NGU.

[TheFarseer]

29. NGU?? what's that?

and it's not Kool-Aid. That's my own opinion based on observation.

[ClassWarrior]

38. It's a cudgel the Radical RW bludgeons with us constantly.

If we can't envision a Progressive future, we can't create one. They know that. You apparently don't. And it's Progressive, by the way, not liberal.

NGU is my own personal motto, adopted Nov.3 = Never Give Up.

NGU.

[UpsideDownFlag]

132. "If we can't envision a Progressive future, we can't create one."

exactly.

[UpsideDownFlag]

26. ....

so we should compromise our values?

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. depends on what you mean, there were democrats who lived in the center

because they honestly thought that's where the best place to get things done was - a guy like Daniel Patrick Moinihan comes to mind.

But others, like Hillary Clinton, just seem to do it out of political expedience, and that's what's so frustrating.

I could live with a DPM being presdient, or a leader of our party, because his principles were clearly rooted in the center. Others just seem to end up there so they don't have to be called names by the other side.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. I Don't Think Pat Moynihan Was A Centrist

I think he was an independent thinker and public intellectual...

Heck, he was called a neoconservative as well as neoliberal....


His conclusions arose from where the facts led him; at least to him....

[Lenape85]

23. It's the wrong type of center they move toward

When Democrats move to the center on economic issues, they lose because they make themselves look like Repub-lite

But if Democrats move to the center on social issues, yet remain liberal on economic issues, then they can have broader appeal, as well as give middle-class union-types a reason to vote Democrat. I mean, if we had an anti-partial birth, pro-gun progressive this year, I bet you they could have sent Bush to the trash heap of one term presidents.

Look at such people as Byron Dorgan and Robert Byrd

[Mike L]

27. Carter-- he ran as a moderate, but was really a liberal and lost 2nd time.

There are several recent Southern governors who won as centrists.

[orpupilofnature57]

32. FIDEL, AND JUST A LITTLE BIT REALLY, was he progressive?

[paulk]

39. your entire premise is ridiculous

why?

because the center in Alabama is not the center in Massachusetts.

!

[UpsideDownFlag]

41. the center, as defined by the DLC, knows no geographical limits.

and it will be our undoing.

[paulk]

67. how trite

try harder.

[UpsideDownFlag]

72. I'm not sure if i could try harder. it's so simple.

1- The DLC are corporatist tools.

2- these corporatist tools insist on moving to the center

3- these corporatist tools will be our undoing.

eh?

[paulk]

124. it's such a shallow analysis

and it's just this sort of either/or, black and white thinking that has relegated the left to it's current position of political irrelevance.

[UpsideDownFlag]

133. here's a comparison:

would you rather have Liebermen or Wellstone represent you? Zell Miller or Howard Dean?

Yes, Centrism and the DLC WILL be our undoing.

[paulk]

138. you prove my point

Do you think Lieberman, Dean, or Wellstone could have won a Senate seat in Georgia?

Please think about this in relation to my original post.

I'll give you another clue:

Who would I rather have represent me, DLC centrist, Ken Salazar, or corporate fascist, Pete Coors?

[orpupilofnature57]

43. TO MOVE TO THE CENTER, from ANY POSITION is moving away.

FROM WHERE YOU ARE,WHY ARE YOU THERE?

[creeksneakers2]

47. Moving to the left isn't realistic

It will take everything everybody has to stop Fascism. After that, it will be time to decide far left or moderate.

Health care intitiatives start out very popular but the insurance companies run lots of ads. Middle America is not going to give up their private health insurance for any untested system. It doesn't take much to scare them. I think a ballot initiative in Oregon wound up getting around 11%.

It more realistic to try to improve and expand the public system, then offer people the chance to join it as a choice.

As for now, we'll be lucky if they don't throw everybody off the public roles.

[ulysses]

61. because centrism has been such a fine tool

in the effort to stop fascism.

:eyes:

[JoAnnSimon]

62. Name a Politician who benefited from moving to the center

Upsidedownflag,

I can't name one in recent history, unless it was Clinton, advocating against the far right of Reagan/Bush I, and advocating more centrist policies to win in 1992.

Clinton is probably the best politician in recent memory, who actually during his Presidency, fought for the common people; a President who empathised with the middle and working classes (a heirarchy of classes that Americans pretend they've eliminated).

The big industry lords and oil barons in this country despised him because he was undermining their power and was actually giving the middle and those in poverty some power again. And our international allies LOVED HIM.

The neocons and oil and gas industry barons absolutely hated him for policies that were undermining their total control, and used every means to bring him down.

Thankfully, Bill Clinton is still alive and thriving and fighting. And he and his wife aren't going to give up the Democratic cause. I hope.

[ShaneGR]

70. Evan Bayh...

Doubtful he'd have been able to keep his seat in Indiana if he wasn't a centrist.

I believe the same holds true for Dorgan in North Dakota and the guy who just got elected to the Senate out of Colorado. Bill Richardson would fit the mold also. To be honest, there are several. Blanche Lincoln is another. Hillary Clinton? I don't know, I'm sure if you went down the list you could find several individuals.

[Hippo_Tron]

142. I'd put Dorgan in at least the top 10 if not top 5 most liberal senators

Senators. Look at his issue positions, he has almost no centrist votes. Not to mention that he was the senator who appeared in F/9-11.

Bayh gets elected in Indiana because of money and because of his father's legacy. I can understand why politicians need to be socially conservative in red states but not fiscally conservative. Tax cuts for the wealthy are NOT winning issues, the GOP wins on social issues. If Evan Bayh were trying to appeal to his constituency, he would be to the left of Kerry on economic issues and as right as Bush on social issues. Instead Bayh is somewhat decent on social issues but not on fiscal issues and frankly he's more of a Bush ass kisser on the war, than the REPUBLICAN senator from his state, Dick Lugar.

[LoZoccolo]

76. Did Kucinich sweep the primaries?

Oh.

[ClassWarrior]

81. Nobody said Progressive Values is ALL one needs.

NGU.

[corksean]

96. Tony Blair did exactly that.....

Hence the term "New Labour". He gutted the Left wing of the party, cut union ties and courted the corporates and big business all in the name of making New Labour "Electable".
Worked like a charm, and even with his unpopular support for the invasion of Iraq he still looks a certainty to win the next election.
Meanwhile socialists and left wingers are left completely unrepresented as what used to be a very clear left / right divide between Labour and the Conservatives disappears as they both scramble for the Centre.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. on domestic policies tony blair is still pretty damn progressive(nt)

[rman]

105. The problem isn't so much in where we are

on the political spectrum.

I'm convinced a majority of people do not want the government to favor big corporations and religious fundamentalists over 'the people'.

In that the majority isn't even center or moderate by republican or DLC standards, it's pro-labor socialist-leaning and above all: democratic - really democratic that is.

The problem is primarily in getting the message out. Once the message is getting around then party officials will have to start representing the interests of the people or be voted out of office.

[Blue Shark]

107. Name one Politician who has benefitted from moving to the Left

...yeah...I can't think of one either

[ulysses]

113. try reading the thread next time. n/t

[UpsideDownFlag]

114. hmm, there's a different thread for that...among those listen in it:

wellstone

feinstein

feingold

kucinich

mckinney

etc.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

119. All Blue State Or Blue District Winners...

And I would hardly say Senator Feinstein is more liberal than Mayor Feinstein was....


I would think your list would be more impressive if you showed a candidate winning in a red state by embracing the agenda you suggest....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. and DiFi is DLC

eom

[UpsideDownFlag]

121. i dont particularly care what you think of my list.

:beer:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

123. I Think As Much Of Your List As Your Disarming Intellect

kisses


Brian

[iwantmycountryback]

117. No Southern Dems got unseated this year

They all retired. And there is a good chance that at least Breaux, Graham, and Hollings would all have been re-elected.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

122. Nixon.

Although to my mind he rates as the worst president we've ever had, he did move to the center.

[greenohio]

126. Rendell, Cantwell, Landrieu, Feinstien, Dodd, are all DLCers.

Many people on this board equate DLC with center (which I think isn't entirely acurate.) These people are all DLC and they win. Would you like a bigger list?

[bobedwards]

129. Go...

I've been posting everywhere in a short time of singing on first, but I have a lot to say. As my position is, moving further right is dangerous, and we risk losing the heart and soul of our party if we try. Move as far left as possible, and people will soon realize how right we are, and we'll win more elections. America is dying for a more progressive voice, and we need to be as vocal as possible about how we're taking giant leaps to the left. This election fraud, I believe, Kerry lost because of Bush's smear campaign against him, and were afriad to vote for someone else because of fear tactics. America will embrace the left, and then we'll make the true rightwingers sorry their mothers got fucked.

[UpsideDownFlag]

131. that's a pretty sensible post. i also believe that america is in need

of a more progressive voice.

[robre]

130. You mean like Bush in 2000?

I want a humble foreign policy!

[WoodrowFan]

134. Democratic Politicans?

Governor Warner of Virginia for one. The new Senator-elect from Colorado. The new Governor of Montana. Almost any Democratic candidate who won Governor or Senator in the past few elections who ran in a "red" state. Even Senator Clinton in New York in 2000. Dean in Vermont even. How many ran in a red or battleground state from the left and won? I can't think of any.

(I don't count Representatives as their districts are usually gerrymandered to be safe now.)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

136. John Kerry

moderated and moved toward the center. It almost paid off.

[Hippo_Tron]

143. Presidential candidates always "run" toward the center...

And it did almost pay off. In fact, it would've paid off if he'd had Carville, Begala, and Lockhart running the campaign instead of Bob Shrum.

[The Gigmeister]

139. Lots of conservatives say Bush is not far enough to the Right.

I'd say President Carter was pretty middle of the road.

Nixon held a lot of non-conservative ideals.

LBJ while liberal, was not anything even close to being a Michael Moore liberal. Same with JFK but to a lesser extent.

Elections are won in the middle. Saying anything else is extremist propaganda.

[Hippo_Tron]

144. DLC is centrist on the WRONG issues to win rural/small town voters

I'm in the process of reading "What's the Matter with Kansas". The premise is that what the DLC has done is turn the democrats into the streotype of "northeastern eliteist liberals". Remember that southern and western states elected democrats throughout the 20th century... FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson. Louisiana elected Governor Huey P Long who was borderline socialist.

The problem with the DLC is that they are the left on social issues like abortion, but are to the right on economic issues. Being to the right on economic issues is NOT popular. Tax cuts for the wealthy are not a winning issues with almost anybody excpet hardcore Republicans and the wealthy.

The GOP has convinced many rural and small-town voters, many of whom are quite poor, to vote for them because of social issues.

I'm not suggesting that we move to the right on social issues, because we don't need Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Idaho, and Utah to win presidential elections. We need to have a CLEAR message about how we are going to ensure social security for the next generation and provide healthcare to those who don't have it. Kerry could've won Ohio if he'd had a clearer economic message about how he was going to improve the quality of life for those who had been hit by economic hard times.