I have a serious question here, and I ask it strictly as a member of DU.

[rasputin1952]

Whay are we discussing "purges" and other topics that border on the same theme? Why is this an issue?

Maybe I'm a little "Old School" here, but I am a Progressive Democrat because I think we should be more unified in our message, and not more divisive. I am willing to accept anyone into the Dem Party that is a free thinker and is looking out for the country as a whole, and moving the nation to a higher plane. I am looking for a unifying theme, not a self-destructive one.

All of the variations of these themes come down to one simple point, we are not coming together to defeat the neo-cons in the mid-term election. We can take the Senate back, and I believe we can get the House back as well. People are seeing the bush admin coming apart at the seams. The election is over, and before the innauguration, over half of the Cabinet is gone, Kerick is a major liability, Social Security is waiting for us to come to it's aid, and here we are...using bandwidth to self immolate. If we have ever learned anything form the GOP, is that division during times of pressure equates to destruction. They do it all the time! The neo-cons and R's cannot run on record of success, they have none. Why aren't we pointing that out, over and over again?

To be realistic, there will be no "purge", there will be no "shift to the right", we will not give up our Core. We will come together, but rather than later...now is the time to do this.

So, once again, as a member of DU, nothing more, nothing less, I ask you why is this an issue?...:shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

1. Ras thanks, I suck at debating and getting my point across

I just don't like people suggesting purges.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imenja]

3. that's absurd

Purging will not result in a core vision. We need to start with what we believe that vision should be and communicate that to the party leadership. Purging won't solve a deficit of ideas. Moreover, to purge one must have power. The democrats have none.

[RafterMan]

27. And further

the call for a purge is the implicit admission that you can't even convince other *democrats* of the rightness of your ideas -- otherwise you would just win them over rather than purging them.

That is clearly not the way to go if the goal is to win more elections.

[imenja]

30. well said n/t.

[blondeatlast]

4. Who is the core? What makes them core? Why are others not core?

Once we get that settled, maybe we can have a rational debate about purges, ie. who can stay and who must go.

Until then, let's work on defining our values and message, then we can start the "blackballing," if for some reason it should be necessary.

I don't see a need right now at all and I doubt that one will arise in the future.

[stray cat]

6. Who is the core?

and who gets to decide?

We can all have are own party and be a core of one. We will never win an election or have any input but we will be pure.

[McKenzie]

5. words of wisdom indeed

the right wing has one, big electoral attribute. When they need to be seen to pull together, they damned well do it. Never mind that they are all busy moaning and pissing at each other in private; when it comes to presenting a public face they know just how to come over to the populace. I suppose they have simplistic themes to rally around such as "nation" and other inanities but they don't do what we tend to do...waste our time bitching about trivialities. I'd add one caveat, namely that they do have the advantage of simplicity of message.

As for "purges"...look what happened to the Labour Party in the UK. Get rid of the lefties so we can get elected. Once into power, it's "let's marginalise all those lefties in the party who survived our Night of the Long Knives". Purge at your peril imho.

[imenja]

because it's easier to hate than to generate ideas

I agree with you entirely that the purge threads are anti-progressive. What's more, they are patently absurd. Purges are carried out by a group in power. We have none.
Several times I have tried to encourage people here to discuss which policies and principles they believe are central to the party. For whatever reason, many seem to avoid that. I guess it's easier to talk about who you despise and want to be purged than come up with ideas.
I'll try again now. I will suggest a couple of ideas here and perhaps others will add their own.

1) Voting reform--uniform voting either across the nation or within
a given state. A wholesale reform of the voting system that puts an end to voter suppression and party manipulation of local elections.
2) a party that represents the interests of the American people. Not that talks about "uplifting" people but that makes it clear that government should belong to the people and thus represent their interests rather than those of corporations.
3) Acknowledging and speaking about the moral basis of progressive principles: human rights, economic justice, etc...

I'd like to hear what others think.

[blondeatlast]

14. As Lakoff said in "Don't Think of an Elephant," we need to define

our values and work outward from there.

Party membership isn't our "core," our reason for existing is.

I know your pain; I too have tried to get us to talk about what defines us as Democrats and indeed the entire Left.

If we can get to this point, it will get very ugly, I know. There are deeply held beliefs in ideas that may not jibe with what we are. It's also very difficult to think as broadly as 'values," without being distracted by our pet issues. But I believe it's essential if we are to have any sort of message.

Let's figure out who we are first, then let people decide if they belong on their own when they are clear about what being a Democrat/LW represents.

[imenja]

32. How can we start to do that?

What are your own ideas?

[blondeatlast]

34. As I said, I've tried here on DU (I'm not thinking beyond DU, btw)

But it always ends up in a flamefest, or too bogged down in issues rather than values so that nothing comes of it.

I know Skinner tried once as well, but it never seemed to get anywhere.

It's harder than we think to think that broadly; I try and I end up listing beliefs and even issues.

The only thing I can think of is a thread that says: Let's define our values. Urge people to think very broadly in it and to resist the urge to finesse. See what people respond to most, then work from there.

I've made an attempt in the "Frame the Debate" group, I'll give the link on edit.

Here's the thread; I'd love to see you there!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=252x917

[imenja]

36. great! thanks

I've tried too, without luck. I'll definitely check in on your group.

[rasputin1952]

44. The first idea I have is for everyone to sit down and evaluate what has

come down the pike in all of these threads. For starters, all of these threads have the same basic ideology, why are there so many of them?

If a person can't make their point over a period of time, hammering it into the ground will not change things. There is nothing new in any of this, it is bashing, for bashing's sake. That is not only non-productive, it is inane and foolish.

How many times must something be said, before the lines are drawn? I have not seen one mind changed with all of this. What I have seen, to be honest, is a lot of really good people being put to each others throats for no good reason. These arguments are spurious at best, and those that make the decisions, will not be affected by what we say here.

DU is a great site to discuss an incredible amount of things that are progressive; yet what I see are people who should have a common goal, being divided, and then attacked for something they can do nothing about. People should cool off, and think out their positions before incinerating each other for basically nothing.

Do I care who is in charge of the DLC or the DNC....in a word, no.

So what would I do to alleviate all of this? I would not entertain anymore of these divisive threads. I would move to a common ground, the base of the Progressive/Democratic movement...inclusion. I would not torch people for their beliefs, I would allow them to believe what they want, as long as it had truth to it. In this situation, the truth is, the Dem leadership at higher levels, might look at threads like these, and be reviled that D's could be so immature as to continue these things.

I would open discussions that looked forward and not back.

I would look for the good we could rally around, as opposed to the harping and attacking of others who are trying to be reasonable.

I would remind people that we are an inclusive party, and no one is forced to "toe-the-line" on ideology.

We are supposed to be fighting for equality, but some seem to think they are more equal than others. Is that really where we want to go?

So...in essence, my suggestion is to be more tolerant of the opinions of others and to let things go...find other things to discuss. This horse is dead, and has been for a long time. The bones are scattered far and wide, and finally, I would simply ask...

Why is everyone wasting so much time on this?

[imenja]

45. I'm with you 100%

Let's do it. Let me know what I can do to further this along.

I try (not that I always succeed) to be respectful in my posts, to try to learn from others and respect their ideas, but I don't think enough people make that effort. Yesterday, one member who disagreed with an issue I raised said I didn't belong on DU. That is the worst sort of division. As you said, if we can't even discuss issues with other Democrats, how can we hope to win elections? There are some very bright, well read people on DU. We should use this as a forum to learn from one another and to share ideas that will advance progressive causes.

[rasputin1952]

47. The best thing any of us can do, is keep the discussion to items of

importance.

I, like you, get frustrated sometimes, and find it difficult to express myself in ways that are always civil...:)

But as long as we keep the dialog up, as to where we should be going, as opposed to where we've been, and finger-pointing, we'll be making progress.

As for the members of DU, there are some great minds here, many of them far greater than mine. Issues are allover the place, and many of them should be discussed to open minds for more productive work. I have learned many ways to deal with the sects of neo-cons by reading great posts. i have been given a thousand links by concerned DU'ers, that have led me to great sites where I have gained knowledge in many political areas. I use this knowledge to dismantle the GOP attacks, I have no time to waste fighting among my fellow Progressives and Dems.

If you just stick to facts and use the truth as the ultimate tool, you can dismantle ANY of the neo-con arguments. They are all built on sand, and exposing them for the frauds they are is really quite easy...:)

[ulysses]

7. "division during times of pressure equates to destruction"

When you can get that across to the self-annointed "leaders" in the party who started this mess, maybe we can stop talking about it.

Sort of a stupid line of discussion anyway.

[imenja]

8. who in the party started this?

Particular politicians? Party activists (other than DU)?

[ulysses]

9. Al From, Bruce Reed and Will Marshall.

http://www.ndol.org

[Cheswick2.0]

13. yes thank you for the reminder...the idea of purging the party is in fact

only spoken of by the DLC, corporatist wing of the party.

[Tinoire]

28. Do you still have those links?

This came out right around the time I become totally disgusted and realized the DLC and it's leaders were waaaaaaaaaaay past any point of redemption. I am sure MadFloridian saved them but I'm going to look for them.

During the primaries no less, they asked that progressives be purged from the party.

[Cheswick2.0]

10. the only people talking of purges are those determined to insist

that progressives (mainly Dean supporters) are determined to purge the party. In fact no such idea has ever been mentioned. Though we have called for dumping the DLC as an organization, not the people in it.
The whole thing is nothing but bullshit flame bait.

[Tinoire]

35. Well Cheswick

To the DLC, any challenge to their death grip they have on our party would be considered calling for a purge.

It's their version of lese-majeste

[Radical Activist]

11. The only threads started on purges that I've seen

were by people opposed to them. I'm not sure where the argument is coming from. It seems like a phony issue.

[JohnKleeb]

15. There's one about purging people who voted for IWR

I think you were in that one, asking I dunno seriously or not to apply the standard to those who support the occupation as well.

[Radical Activist]

22. Oh that's right. I was making the point

that if we take that purge seriously we wouldn't have a party left. We would be tiny like the Greens. Even Dean said today on whatever morning show it was that he supported what the President was doing in Iraq with the elections and that we can't get out quickly.

[Bridget Burke]

12. Flamebait.

Divide & conquer is an old strategy.

[Tinoire]

17. When the dividing issues are topics as serious as death, war & world destr

When the dividing issues are topics as serious as death, war & world destruction then yes, I think a "purge" is in order.

The progressives calling for "purges" are not calling for a purge of true-blue died in the wool Democrats who believe in at least 'pursuing' justice. The call is for a purge of all the Liberal Republicans = Conservative Democrats who are subverting everything we stand for mostly because they're having a personality difference with Bush.

Neo-Conservatism vs Neo-Liberalism. War vs Peace. Regression vs Progress. That's why this is an issue. Some of us are fighting for the soul of our party- a soul that supposedly belongs to every believer in justice and every disenfranchised person out there.

That is the "purge" that people like me would like to see. I may not be calling for purges but I certainly wish that either one would happen or the Progressive Dems would form their own party and get the important issues front and center again. Our party blew it BIG TIME. The war was our defining issue and should have been our party's defining issue (since it represents us supposedly) but it couldn't be because our DLC had pushed for, endorsed and supported this war.

The problem is that we've since lost the election but the war (and the coming wars as well)is STILL the defining issue for many of us.

You say <<"there will be no "shift to the right", we will not give up our Core. We will come together>>

It's too late for the shift to the right. It already happened and got cemented in because too many didn't wake up to the danger of the DLC in time. Listen to the Gore Perot debates over NAFTA and weep. 8 years of sanctions and bombings against Iraq under Clinton that the Core didn't request- it was clamoring for health-care that it never got. The shift to the right is cemented by our party leadership. The Core has already been given up. You saw what happened to the candidates who spoke up for the Core- they were rail-roaded- all three of them- and NOT by Rove.

I like the intent of your post but do not agree that Progressives like me can come together with the "Third Way" Democrats. They have already shown their true colors and I can't back neo-Liberalism any more than I can back neo-Conservatism. And no amount of metamorphoses on their end will change that. They can steal our terms and try to camouflage their think tanks with labels like "Progressive Policy Insitute" and form all sorts of "Progressive" groups to front for their neo-Liberalism. It won't work. It is too late.

Mind you, I have not and will not call for a "purge", I simply don't want to be in the same party as imperialism-loving neo-Liberals; if that means I have to leave the Democratic Party because they're so entrenched then so be it but I can't work with people who push for, support or condone the neo death and destruction we are seeing today.

Hope that makes sense...

I will remind you that the first to call for purges was the DLC and its Third Way Democrats. This was during the primaries and they were quite clear about it. Why was no one concerned when a small ruling faction was calling for progressives to be pruged? Progressives are tired of seeing our party hijacked by corporate interests and the war mongerers.

What we are doing is not called a purge... It's called TAKING OUR PARTY BACK!

[RafterMan]

18. Because it's been an undercurrent

in many posts by people who have strong feelings about the future direction of the party, at least since the election.

I think the word "purge" was introduced as a rhetorical device designed to make this undercurrent explicit. In that, it seems to be serving its purpose.

[unblock]

19. purge, no. demand loyalty, yes.

we need to have respectful debate within the party, but where everyone consistently has the theme that ANY democrat is better than ANY banana republican

AND

once a candidate emerges, the entire party AGREES that the best candidate won the nomination and that our candidate is better than the banana republican candidate.

[Walt Starr]

26. I took that approach this year

and all I got was this fascist dictator wannabe.

Nope, no more. I'm done. From now on I vote my conscience. If the Dem up for office is DLC, I go third party. No more compromise on my core values. No more DINOs. No more Joementum.

[unblock]

29. you callin' kerry a dino???

and saying you'll rest easier knowing that your vote won't do a damn thing to stop yet another fascist dictator wannabe in '08?

[Walt Starr]

31. Well, let's see, it didn't do a damn thing voting for a Dem

so it can do just as much voting for a Green or for somebody else, now, can't it?

And yes, after seeing how he reacted to the election, I now consider Kerry a Corporatist.

[unblock]

33. i see. lose once, might as well destroy the party.

you do know that the banana republicans are just PRAYING that we come to the conclusion you just did, right?

[Walt Starr]

38. Seems to me, the DLC and the rest of the Democratic "leadership"

has been doing more for the Republicans than the Republicans have been doing for themselves.

Maybe the first thing we should do is come up with a way of stopping Democrats from enabling the Republicans.

[unblock]

40. i won't argue with the "stop enabling" part

but whining and running to the greens won't accomplish anything useful for our side.

[Walt Starr]

41. Actually, yes it might

I see the Democratic PArty as dead.

D-E-A-D

Running to the Greens is the only hope, IMO.

[unblock]

42. best case scenario for the greens is a fair showing in '08

and a solid but losing performance in '12, followed by an actual victory in '16.

i'm not willing to wait that long.

and if you disagree with my assessment, you are dreaming.


democrats have a 60% majority, we just need to overcome the fraud and the media control. as if greens could ever do a better job of overcoming banana republican fraud and media control.

[Walt Starr]

43. I don't see the Democrats as having any chance in any of those elections

so I'll take my chances with somebody else.

[catbert836]

20. Because we just lost the freakin' election.

It's unfortunate, but unavoidable. Go to the Lounge if you don't want any talk like that.

[Tinoire]

21. Delete - Dupe...

[Padraig18]

23. A voice of reason!

You always have had a sensible head on your shoulders, Ras, which is one of the reasons I so thoroughly enjoyed serving as a Moderator with you.

:hi:

[rasputin1952]

46. LOL...I don't know about the 'sensible' part...but my head is still on my

shoulders... not between my hips...:)

[ismnotwasm]

24. Disgusting concept

Disgusting word. Reminds me of the disease of bulimia. Also reminds me of Eugenics. Personal opinion, of course. As to why? In a word, fear. We are under the shadow of a very evil group of people running the country--and I don't think I'm being too melodramatic saying that. I'm scared to death, but I try to keep an open mind. I suppose there are some things I wouldn't compromise on, as far as my belief systems goes, but "purging"? It also reminds me of "witch hunt"

[hickman1937]

25. Just left this thread and what do I see

A poll about purging Zell. If we ever got all our guns pointed in the same direction we could take over the country.

[blondeatlast]

37. On the surface, it really isn't a difficult concept, but in practice...

I can dream, can't I?

LOL

[MissMarple]

39. Purging and demanding loyalty are not liberal values. Building consensus,

working together toward common goals, and educating each other are liberal values.

But since we all approach liberalism from different directions and in different ways finding common ground is important. We need each other, even if we must do a bit of a stretch to understand each other. :hi: