Who would vote for Kerry after the pathetic lack of interest in the

[cidliz2004]

Ohio recount, the concession that came lightening fast and the lack of opinion and/or caring that he has demonstrated since November 2?

What a joke he is. And what fools so many of us are for believing in this guy.

[jamboi]

1. I'm still watching and waiting.... n/t

[genius]

66. Unless he proves he won now, I'll never vote for him again.

[In Truth We Trust]

73. As they say "you sho got that right!!!!"

I would never vote for him or Edwards. Sticking to my principles from now on. No more "electability" BS for this progressive!!!

[hughee99]

100. exactly...

unless HE proves he won. He didn't even get elected before breaking his first promise, to make sure all the votes were counted. If he were at least standing up for this and getting nowhere, I would have more respect for him than I do now. Even if he does win now (and I'm not holding my breath) I don't know that I would vote for him in the primaries in 4 years unless he get's off his ass right now and stands up for the voters.

[Crunchy Frog]

2. The only way I would vote for him in '08

is if he were running as the sitting incumbent. Otherwise, if he is the nominee, I will most likely be voting Green party.

[johntao]

3. that's not fair

If he did what Gore did, the media would have eaten him alive. This way, the recount can proceed without the "sore-loser" tag being forced on Kerry.

C'mon people - this is a man who wanted to be president all his life. He conceded early to prevent the media circus. If it's proven that there is fraud in Ohio, I'm sure that Kerry would make himself very public at that point. How quickly we've forgotten that the media painted Gore as a "sore-loser" even though we all know he won. The unofficial tally was about 500 for Gore and about 136,000 for Kerry. If they nailed Gore for being down only 500 votes, what do you think the media would have done to Kerry?

[WildEyedLiberal]

4. Now, don't be logical

You're getting in the way of a perfectly good whiny rant. Who needs actual reason when you can pout and cry and point fingers and lay blame?

Christ alive.

</sarcasm>

[ohioan]

5. Yeah - what you said.

[cidliz2004]

8. Right, lets watch this and sell ourselves on another pack of lies

to calm our nerves and soothe our souls. This whole campaign season has been a lesson in waiting for something BIG to happen and justify all of the inactivity and non events that have yet to take place.

Some people live to make excuses for what is painfully apparent to others.

[WildEyedLiberal]

14. You expect instant gratification on something as huge as voter fraud?

Look, if there has been provable fraud, it'll take time to uncover it. You have to present evidence that will be admissible in a court of law, and that's a bit of a higher standard than what is required to convince DU posters. Kerry is paying attention and has demanded a recount in Ohio; or are you just not paying attention to what he is doing? What would you have him do so differently, exactly? And don't say "fight for us." That's a cop out answer that provides no specific realistic details. John Kerry has to live in the real world, and in the real world, when the cards are stacked against you, you have to play your hand VERY carefully, or else you'll get your ass kicked, and quick. John Kerry screaming "fraud" and getting his credibility shredded by the MSM and destroying any chance we have of proving any possible voter fraud isn't going to accomplish one damn thing, so I don't have any idea what you expect him to do.

I understand your frustration about the cheating Pukes, but posting illogical rants and directing your anger at the wrong party is not a viable solution. Maybe venting helps your frustration, but you have to acknowledge the reality beyond DU messageboards. What can be done is being done, and what will come of it is unclear yet. Your harsh judgments are premature and counterproductive to our cause, which is fighting the Bush junta (the real enemy, to whom your anger should be directed.)

And it's beyond ludicrous to make pronouncements about 2008 in December of 2004. Four years of shit will hit the fan in the meantime, so it seems silly to make such an assertation. And I have never understood what anyone attempts to accomplish by threatening to vote Green.

[cidliz2004]

19. The best offense in a good defense

Again, Silence about Iraq, Silence about obvious fraud in Florida, Silence about a stolen election in 2000 (except Gore did show more of a fighting spirit than did Kerry). Sitting back is pretty much went on all of the campaign season. The recent election in Eastern Europe did what we will be forced to do if our "Leaders" don't stop worrying about their political "futures" and start caring about this country's present.

I watched this season with way too many events that were poorly managed and frankly too many "Washington Insiders" making decisions that didn't fullfill what the everyday American could relate to. I would like to see a little less "Establishment" and a little bit more answering to the people actual needs. This fricking "game playing" by BOTH sides is pathetic.

[WildEyedLiberal]

25. See my response # 20

You do make some valid points about the Democratic Party in general; however, I think your ad hominem attack on John Kerry's character is unnecessary and unfair, for reasons I have already stated.

Again, you NEED a smoking gun to prove shit like this. Rove covers his tracks well; and you're 100% right about Dem advisers being largely worthless. Point is, we don't HAVE a brilliant (if amoral scumbag) strategist like Rove. We have morons like Bob Shrum who understand nothing about winning elections, evidently.

Why I am optimistic: there is no such thing as a perfect crime. The 2004 elections were the largest in the nation's history, and Rove is bound to have made mistakes in attempting to hijack the election. I DO think Kerry's team is concerned about this, as evidenced by the request for a recount in Ohio, and looking into irregularities. It may take a while to prove, however. Wouldn't you rather they took their time and built a solid, bulletproof case against Bushco for fraud, rather than jumping the gun with little to no proof and being laughed out of town by everyone except us? I know I would; I'd rather have a slow, calculated, efficient plan than a wild suicide charge any day.

Also, I think you are canonizing Gore's "last stand" beyond what is necessary. Gore asked for a recount in three counties with a margin of 500 votes; Kerry is dealing with tens of thousands of votes across a whole state. It is harder to convince the average American that the election is close when the margin is 100,000 + than it is when it is 500. And despite those advantages, Gore's effort was in vain. He was mocked and ridiculed and ultimately overridden. Had Kerry gone the same route, the same would've happened to him, only worse. The media's only gotten MORE right-wing since 2000 (since 9/11, really), and Bush is only MORE entrenched in power, and the margin of "victory" was much greater, making Kerry's climb much steeper. I think caution is the way to go given the circumstances. A suicide charge earns you nothing but martyrdom, and as much as you may admire Gore's martyrdom, it didn't accomplish anything of substance, so I'm rather glad Kerry isn't going the same route.

[jerryster]

61. Better chance to nail Rove for 2000 than 2004

After reading all the posts I decided to respond to yours for a couple of reasons. First, you obviously agree with me and a lot of other people that Rove is a master dirty trickster. You also said he covers his tracks well, and he does. I also agree with you that Kerry did the right thing and that one better have a REALLY solid, bulletproof case. I don't have one for either 2000 or 2004 but I continue to look at 2000 for Rove's slip. Here's why:

When Rove and Co. realized that Florida wasn't a lock for Bush they HAD to be freaked out. As the numbers proved,Gore could lose Tennessee and still win with Florida. Bush had to win Florida. What's a Rove to do? Well, 2 things happened that Rove couldn't control or know about even though they helped his guy. First was that goddam asshole Nader. No one knew he was going to get 90,000 votes. And no one knew so many people would screw up and vote for Buchanan.

Where Rove took action, I believe, was with Choicepoint and the phony felon list of 47,000 names. I am certain that Rove concocted it or, at least, instructed Choicepoint to come up with something to tilt the playing field. The proof for me which does no one any good in court - was Glenda Hood having the gall to try it AGAIN in 2004 with her list. This time, we were ready for it. So if enough people saw it coming in 2004 BECAUSE it happened in 2000, someone other than me must have a notion that it was a Rovian maneuver. Jake Tapper mentioned the list in his book, but I don't think he mentioned Rove.

Yeah, I get slammed for bringing this up repeatedly. But if we're looking for fraud I believe we have a much better chance of finding - and proving it - in the 2000 election.

[Debralasv]

78. I totally agree!

We all have "gut" feelings about voter fraud. That is not proof! I'm not a lawyer. But, I do know proof is needed. Let, alone who needs to be informed and the proper papers, etc.

But, what if after a recount in Ohio it shows Bush won in Ohio...but there was voter fraud by the neo-cons?

[bunny planet]

98. it is election fraud, not voter fraud!!!!!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I willl ask the obvious question

HOW FAR ARE YUO WILLING TO GO? ARe you willing to face arrest> Are you willing to stand in the cold? Are you willing to participate in a national boycott? Or are you just willing to ... whine on a message board?

I ask becuase I am getting sick and tired of the many... but Kerry this and kerry that... well boy \ girl... stand up, pick up the fight and JOIN the rest of us who are actually NOT waiting for leadership, aparent or otherwise, to show itself. We understand that for many political reasons they will not do it...

It is UP TO US... once this turns they will follow....

though I suspect there is far more behind the scenes going on than you're willign to admit... but truth be told... were are the marchers acros this nation? Where are the orange clad crowds, to use a recent examole. I mean were ARE YOU?

Don't tell me that you want Kerry to fight for you... or you are telling me, you really do not want this hard enough... if yuo do, you will be willing to give up much more than just your time on a message board... as this may include your life.

[LittleClarkie]

58. The answer has been, when I asked, "Kerry first."

"It's not our fault if Kerry won't stand up and lead us," they say.

Horsehockey, I say. Get up and move. No one should have to tell you when if you're that angry.

Once again I look to the Ukraine for inspiration. I don't care how much US help the Ukrainians got in the election. No one was going to make them stand out in the frigid cold if they didn't feel it for themselves. Cuba should have proven to us that some things can't just be manufactured out of thin air. There had to be an undercurrent already there, or no matter how much US interests pushed, it wasn't going to happen. Can you imagine the average American going through that kind of hardship?

Well, actually, I'll take part of that back. Many went through much hardship to vote in the first place on Nov. 2. That makes our current situation doubly upsetting.

Even if we don't get a flip of the election, we MUST fix the vote. As I said further up, I'm having trouble getting people to admit even THAT much.

Bless the Ukrainians. Democracy is still shiney and new for them. They haven't learned to take it for granted yet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. I know I know and I am starting to wonder

if the whiners want this enough, or they are just too comfortable at home.

See yuo there, tomorrow we have actions across this land... I am the media, for we have none.

See you in the streets... and by the way, I wear Orange.... There are many reasons why I may not like Ukranians, but god dammit they were out there freezing...

[In Truth We Trust]

75. Your argument panders to MSM punditry and frankly I see that as

a BIG part of the problem we let media frame the debate. Remember the "electability" question. How many progressives didn't vote their principles (including me) and supported Kerry. Don't get me wrong, I was an active supporter in many ways.

Your first statement say's that proving fraWd takes time and you may be right however we don't have time. As I write this the electors from every state will vote little more than 9 hours and on Jan 6 we will be presented with another term of pResident fraWd. We need leadership and someone willing to draw the kleeg lights on the fundamental flaws and obvious electile dysfunction. If JFK truly wants to win in 08 he MUST do everything now to secure support and get rid of electronic voting. Only he can draw the spotlight in a meaningful way to demand paper ballots now.

[bunny planet]

97. Please call it election fraud, not voter fraud.

:-)

[GRLMGC]

10. Logic?

Who needs logic? I spit on logic
:sarcasm off:

[Turn CO Blue]

13. Logic? We don't need no stinkin' logic!

(yawn)

I am a very loyal person, not a fair-weather fan. Kerry has earned my loyalty. He had me at "Vietnam".

Anyway, it wasn't Kerry who rigged the vote for Christ's sake!

[cidliz2004]

16. How is Kerry going to protect this country when he couldn't forsee

the obvious attempt at stealing the election? EVERYBODY was talking about it. Why didn't the DNC, Kerry and the rest of our Democratic Leaders do what was needed to STOP it or at least to EXPOSE it? We all knew marching into this election that something was going to happen, so if Kerry knowing when and where and HOW this election would most likely be stolen, then where were his leadership skills in thwarting it? Furthermore, it appears Kerry is more interested in perserving his image for 2008, then preserving and protecting the integrity of our election process.

[WildEyedLiberal]

20. Everybody = some DUers and Bev Harris types

Hardly everybody, in the grand scheme of things...

There is a world outside DU, you know.

What are they going to do? Announce publicly that the Republicans were going to cheat? Without proof? Actual, tangible, hard proof?

You can't accuse someone of murder until they pull the trigger. And even then, you have to make damn sure you have hard evidence to take to court, because if you don't, the killer will walk free, regardless of how certain you are of his guilt.

You can't accuse someone of fraud until they commit it, and you'd better not do it until you have real proof that they did. Proofless accusations will be regarded by everyone in this country as tinfoil hat conspriacy theory until you get some cold hard evidence to back it up. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

[cidliz2004]

26. Excuse me ....2000', theft, Michael Moore, F-9/11

Some people Do Speak Out. There were "legions" of lawyers ..... remember???? DIEBOLD EVERYBODY knew that was going to be a big area to watch. Fake terror threats causing "lockdown" in counting votes in Ohio.... Come on, you'd have to be brain dead to not be watching the states that EVERYBODY knew were going to decide the election.

[WildEyedLiberal]

28. I still don't know what you are proposing he should've done

And I don't know how this is helping anything. You can argue over how forseeable the fraud was, but again, not much you can do without solid proof. When the Supreme Court rules that the 2000 election results were valid, what the hell is litigation going to accomplish when the highest court in the land sides with Repukes? What, seriously, are you going to do?

Anyway, I understand your anger, because I'm angry too, but I am also optimistic and feel that justice will be served for the crime of betraying our democracy. If it takes a couple of years, then so be it - to suggest Kerry doesn't "care" is silly. Maybe enough wasn't done in your book to change things, although again, I don't know what you would've done so differently, but again I think ad hominem and unfair attacks are unfair and miss the point entirely.

[cidliz2004]

39. We saw them steal in 2000, Its like having your home burglarized and

not doing much to make your home more burglarproof. We all knew that Ohio was going to be a tossup and a decider, so look at the precinct that are going to most likely vote for Democrats, put volunteer at that precinct to watch the WHOLE PROCESS with an attorney on call. Hell there were enough Democrats charged up to help and there were "legions" of attorneys. Maybe when there was a "lockdown" because of a "terrorist threat" something could have (and should have) been done right then and there. The count at least should have been "halted" until the count could have been observed by the watchers. They should have halted the count until the "terror threat" was removed.

Ken Blackwell should have not been able to be the co-chair of the Bush-Cheney Ohio campaign AND preside as the stat's chief elections officer. There should have been some legal moves made against that obvious conflict of interest.

Hows that for starters?

[librechik]

114. 1)he should have declined to concede 2) demanded original exit poll data

3)Restraining order on OH electoral as soon as news of the skewed voting machine allocations and "lockdown" came out 4) demanded Blackwell recuse himself BEFORE the original count.

just as a beginning. He did not fight for us. Period.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. They were... and truth be told yuo do not know

if they still are... or do you?

I will ask, where are you? I mean outside of DU?

Have yuo made changes in your life to protest this? Are YOU participating in demonstrations? Are YOU writing letters to the editor? Have you ASKED your senators and congress critter NOT to certify the election? What are YOU doing Monday?

[cidliz2004]

44. I wasn't running to be the president of the United States and proclaiming

myself to be a "World Leader". Kerry did and because of that, he owes us to be able to walk the walk.

I in my own small way became actively involved the the Democratic Party in 2003, after signing up to be a Democrat in 2000 (I was formerly an independent). I became a precinct captain and went to meetings and wrote letters..... so, yes in my small way I contributed and thousands of others contributed as well most of them much more than I.

I supported Kerry and was actively participating in his campaign, even though he was not my 1st or 2nd choice. I supported Kerry when he chose Edwards as his VP, even though Edwards was not on the top 5 of who I thought was better prepared to be the VP. I defended Kerry through a pretty weak campaign at times. So now, that he seeminly has lost through fraud or just the slimmest of margins I am hoping against hope that SOMEBODY in the Democratic Party will emerge as a STRONG leader that will truly INSPIRE the Democrats to support the Democratic Party and simply not be out working and/or voting for the Democrats simply to GET RID of Bush mentality. If Kerry would have INSPIRED people, he would have beat Bush so profoundly that it would have sent many Republicans out of Washington. He simply didn't portray the strength and leadership qualities that are so badly needed right now.

What is happening in the Ukraine? That is what has to happen here. Most Democrats are fighting for their country and their beliefs and are against Bush BEFORE they are following and/or supporting Kerry. All of the political people that I personally know voted Kerry with their brains and heart, but not their soul.

[dazeconf]

27. kerry could have come out against e-voting though

and called for machines with paper trails. On the other hand, it would have done nothing for him as a campaign issue, becuase most americans were thinking about iraq, economy, terrorism, etc.

[dazeconf]

22. he did forsee it

He probably just didn't forsee an attempt to steal the election by that many votes. This is why he kept a great deal of his money from the primary campaign. It was money he couldn't use to campaign after accepting public funds post-convention, but which he could use to fund a recount. He probably didn't think that Rove could fraudulently get chimp a margin of 120,000 in Ohio, that fraud on that large of a scale would be obvious. With that margin, any post-election call for a recount seems ridiculous. Republicans probably outsmarted him there. Remember that Gore was torn apart for asking for a recount with a margin of less than 500 votes. Keep in mind also that the Greens have already gotten further along in Ohio than Gore did in Florida, as the entire state will be hand recounted. By keeping this out of the public eye, Kerry avoids throngs of republican lawyers resisting recount efforts. I wouldn't be surprised if Kerry was actually counting on Cobb to request a recount if the margin was too large for Kerry to maintain credibility.

[LittleClarkie]

30. Indeed, I think he was ready for 2000

not 2004. He was ready for recounts, not outright widescale fraud.

People who tried to tell him about Diebold said his eyes would just glaze over. He's not a tinhatter, though I think he gets it now. Hell, even the most liberal people I know aren't buying the fraud aspect.

I almost shouted at someone tonight to forget 2004. I wasn't trying to flip the election, I argued. I just want to make sure that the voting system got fixed. My friends weren't even buying that much. They just kept repeating "Get over it! After 4 more years people will see their mistake and we'll win in 2008."

Hell, even if you don't believe in outright fraud, why would you not want to fix a system that had people standing in line for hours, sometimes in the rain, to vote on fewer machines than in 2000. When I suggested that the whole country should vote on the same machines, my friend said that we'd be infringing on state's rights then. Hell, it's a federal election we're talking about. The states don't print their own money. That's a federal issue. And so is voting in a FEDERAL election.

It's an uphill battle even amongst our own. Someone pointed that out today, but I hadn't experienced it yet. Now I have. Dang, how are we ever going to get these people to believe.

[Leilani]

37. Don't you see that as a lack of imagination?

Or a lack of judgement?

He;s always fighting the last war. In 2004 he's ready to fight 2000.

During Iraq, he's still fighting about Vietnam. To make Vietnam a focus of his campaign was a HUGE mistake.

[CatWoman]

46. BINGO!!!!!

you are so on the mark.

[donheld]

60. Great post

God forbid any interuption of a good whiny rant.

[bunkerbuster1]

82. My bum needs wiping

where is Kerry?

[Cobalt Violet]

6. I'm with you.

Many of us are. I'm just so sick of posts like this everyday or several times a day that I don't bother with them for the most part. I will vote for Kerry again.

He is my Senator. In 2008 I will vote for him again wheater for Senate or President. I am not a fairweather Kerry supporter. And I understand his reasoning for going the road he has.

I do understand the fustration of the poster because I feel it for most of the Dems. who are in a postion to speak out and haven't. If they all spoke out it would be better than just Kerry.

[cidliz2004]

11. BINGO!

When we were marched up to the war in Iraq.....Silent Democratic Leaders(?), When Gore lost (but not really) in 2000....Silent Democratic Leaders, When all of the Representatives in Florida were complaining about vote fraud in their areas...not one Senator would support them....Silent Democratic Leaders. I am looking at what is and what was, not what might be happening.

[Sub Zero]

70. Are you for real?

"If he did what Gore did, the media would have eaten him alive. This way, the recount can proceed without the "sore-loser" tag being forced on Kerry."

So according to you our candidates shouldn't do anything about election fraud because the media would call him a "sore loser"?

Wow that's great. Let's see which would be better...

1. Let bush have another four years and get away unchallenged on election fraud because some people fear the media calling our candidate name. (like that doesn't happy anyway)

OR

2. Actually fight them.

Considering so many seem to think number 1 is the best choice I'm not surprised we're where we are now.

[johntao]

72. Hey buddy

Having your candidate tagged as a "sore-loser" hurts your cause for a recount. It puts the focus on the candidate instead of the actual investigation. This way, the focus is on the investigation and not Kerry. If the investigation proves fraud, Kerry, being seen as a victim at this point, would earn sympathy and Bush would be seen as the "sore-loser".

Also, I never said the candidate should not do anything because he is afraid of being called a "sore loser". Don't attribute an idea to me that I haven't expressed. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some hidden level of cooperation between the Kerry people and the Cobb people.

It is important to keep the focus on the investigation and not the candidate himself. If fraud is PROVEN, there is no question that Kerry will step up. But it must be proven FIRST or the media will assassinate Kerry's character if he chooses to "cry wolf".

[Supersedeas]

91. not sure that's Kerry's rationale, but what you say is true about the MSM

[Zhade]

112. Uh, have you noticed what's happening now?

Those of us who see the results as very suspect are now being labelled DISSIDENTS who are "out of touch with the rest of the country" - even by some of our own!

[Turn CO Blue]

7. Naaaah. We don't need Kerry leading this charge

What we need is really good investigators, and a few souls to wise up and confess complicity and malfeasance. And a little luck wouldn't hurt either.

[MsConduct]

9. Not me, I won't be sucked in again. n/t

[slay]

12. I feel betrayed. I voted for the guy and he won't stand up for my vote.

n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

17. That's why he requested a recount in Ohio and said

"It's critical that we investigate and understand any and every voting irregularity anywhere in our country, not because it would change the outcome of the election but because Americans have to believe that their votes are counted in our democracy."

So, if that's not "standing up for your vote," what would be, pray tell?

Okay.

[LittleClarkie]

31. "Gore-ing himself" in a showy, yet useless way so that we could see

he was "fighting for us." I guess some of us want Kerry to stand up "loudly." Stealthfully is too "nuanced."

But then I'm not a fairweather friend either. I made my choice. I wasn't looking for the "electable" one, and that's not what I voted for. I voted for a good man, and I will do it again.

Sad thing is, no matter what he does now, some people will say "too little, too late" as if fighting for health care is just campaigning for the next election.

No respect, I tell ya. We'll have to hang a steak around his neck just to get the dog to play with him.

[sendero]

90. So....

... he applied a tourniquet to a dead man. Way to go.

[librechik]

115. dragged kicking and screaming--too afraid he might be "embarrassed"

if recount results came out negative? Who knows. He blows.

And I was SO PROUD of him during the debates. Why can't our candidates ever risk it all for the American voter? Makes me sick. No commitment whatsoever.

[KenCarson]

15. i'll hold my judgment for another 60 days

i wouldn't want to misunderestimate JK

[zann725]

29. I'll wait too...since Patience is a Virtue. And Repugs keep telling us

we lack Moral Values! So let's show 'em!

[CatWoman]

18. yeah -- better to vote for Bush instead

he cares so much about my vote, he STOLE it!!!!!

VIVA BUSH!!!!!!!!!

2008 AND BEYOND!!!!

[cidliz2004]

21. I keep forgetting, that even in the Democratic Underground

the "if your not with us your against us" attitude is alive and kicking. I keep hearing that Bush doesn't want to hear disagreement, I guess I must forget that some on this board don't want to hear disagreement either.

There were others in the party that I preferred over Kerry/Edwards and if that is offensive to some of you than I am sorry.

I more than anyone would like to see 43 gone, I have hated him since 2000'. He is an embrassment to this country and he is dangerous. Our Democracy is being killed by these thugs. I want to see someone stand up with courage and to lead the MAJORITY of people in this country WHO WANT BUSH OUT, to take back our country. The complacency is NOT GOING TO WORK. Trying to play it nice IS NOT GOING TO WORK.

Kerry is walking a fine line right now balancing the recount in Ohio, letting others to the leg work and hopefully expose something on one hand and keeping himself positioned to be able to run in 08' on the other hand. If you think any differently.....well then you are more naive than I am and that is pretty darn naive.

[CatWoman]

43. you're right

if you're not with us, you're against us.

[ShaneGR]

47. It would help if you did something other than attack Dems....

It's not that we need you to be completely with us, more like wondering why you're almost always against us.

[CatWoman]

48. indeed.

[cidliz2004]

50. I'm not always against you.

I support the word LIBERAL, I support ALL OF OUR VOTES being counted, I support the right to say what you think, I support our troops not being sent into a war for bogus reasons, I support the dead troops coming home being honored and not hidden, I support a primary season that doesn't end before the vast majority of states have a chance to weigh in, I support truth and honesty in the press, I support free speech, I support a woman's right to choose, I support holding our elected officials accountable for their actions, I support the laws of our country being upheld, I support our right to have protest marches, I support an OPEN lively discussion of views, I support equal freedoms regardless of race or sex, I support family values, I support women being able to get child support payments without having to continuously hiring attorneys to go after their husbands, I don't believe in the death penalty, I believe in preserving our environment, I believe in affordable or free healthcare for everybody, I believe in fair wages for working, I believe in safety in our workplaces, I believe in a Democratic Society, OPEN HONEST AND DIFFERING OPINIONS SHOULD BE OPENLY DISCUSSED AND RESPECTED by those professing to have the same values.

What do you believe?

[flordehinojos]

23. i stand with your judgment on kerry. that is, i agree!

[jsw_81]

24. I'd vote for him

Kerry did the right thing by conceding after it became clear that he had no chance of winning Ohio. I know that you some of you would have preferred a month-long legal battle that would have torn the country apart, but Kerry -- a true patriot -- wasn't going to let that happen.

[LittleClarkie]

32. A true patriot, yes

How pathetically ironic that at least half the country doesn't understand who the true patriot was in this election. Kerry cares, damn it!

[angrydemocrat]

36. You Damn Right I Will Vote For Kerry Again!

I voted for Kerry in the primaries and supported him all the way. I will proudly do it all over again. Kerry is a person of intelligence who can see all sides of an issue and incorporate all available data before making a decision. Kerry knows exactly what he is doing that is why he is the one ran for president and isn't one of these sitting on their ass, pissing in the wind, playing the blame game, and trying to be a monday night quarterback that judges others.

[bunny planet]

101. Absolutely agree. I would vote for him again, but it'll be a no-brainer

because in 2008, HE"LL BE THE INCUMBENT.

[Piperay]

35. Not me

he wasn't my choice in the Primary and I only voted for him in the General because...well...I had to vote for someone to try and stop chimp. Kerry will never get my vote again...well...unless I have no other choice like this time. x(

[bklyncowgirl]

38. Assuming there's no "Miracle in Ohio" I'll watch what he does.

I'm disappointed in Kerry.

On the other hand I don't see any other major league Democrates with the exception of Jesse Jackson, speaking out on this either.

Bottom line is if he doesn't have proof he can't do anything.

I'll watch him over the next few years. If he takes a leadership role in the Senate on issues of election reform, foreign policy, environment and jobs I'd be willing to give him another chance though I'll probably support someone else in the primary.

If he doesn't and he or the eventual Democratic nominee is a total pushover, I'll vote Green or pull the lever for Nader if he runs again.

[LittleClarkie]

56. Fair enough

He's about the only Dem I've seen lately saying we need to fight the Bush agenda. So far so good. Others are still beating their heads against the wall, trying to figure out what the Cheney happened, or are already positioning for 2008.

We'll see if talk translated into action. So far I've seen good signs: the PAC he wants to form, the trip to Iraq, the bill co-sponsored by all ya'll (I'm looking forward to that one: "Did you hear about the bill I'm co-sponsoring in Congress?" I should get some... interesting looks.)

[sockpuppet]

99. I'm feeling greener by the minute.

The DLC has a stranglehold on the DNC. The only thing Bill Clinton did for true progressives is give us lip service while managing to win twice with a (D) beside his name. Even Hillary is moving to the right in preparation for her run.

I'm thinking that the Green Party maybe the new home for true progressive liberals.

[Fawn]

40. There's an old cliche...

...he had me at "hello".

The media, and man of his supporters, crucified Gore for contesting the election and dragging it out and the margin of victory there was much smaller, no?

Kerry handled this situation as he has hanodled many in his life...with grace and dignity. It would have served no purpose to rant and stomp. If there is voter fraud, it will come out. Hell, two people can't keep a secret and it surely takes more than two people to toss an election.

I'm only saddened by the fact that so many people bought into the cowboy rhetoric of Bush, a man who can't even pronounce nuclear correctly and massacres the English language on an hourly basis, rather than voting in a man who obviously uses the brain God gave him for more than something to separate his ears.

If Kerry ran tomorrow, I'd vote for him again.

[Fawn]

41. Egad....

I used to know how to type. Please forgive the typos and I will try to proofread in the future.

[bunny planet]

102. Amen to that Fawn

Have a Kerry, Kerry Christmas!

[Goldeneye]

42. We don't know what's going to happen

I fail to see how Kerry getting involved would have helped.

[lojasmo]

45. Never again. N/T

[incapsulated]

49. Not again, but

The Ohio recount is the least of it. Kerry was shoved down a lot of our collective throats, most here supported someone else during the primaries. I don't believe in running the same guy twice, anyway.

I don't believe he would ever win another Dem primary, regardless.

[LittleClarkie]

54. Well, isn't that true of every primary with a wide range of candidates

For alot of us, it's not going to be the guy you wanted.

At this point, I don't know what I'll do if I get Hillary "shoved down my throat." She's already being touted as frontrunner and we're not even out of 2004. I must say I am less than enthused.

But them's the breaks. You could have voted Green, or not voted. No one was forcing anyone to do anything.

[incapsulated]

64. Oh, c'mon

"voted Green or not voted"?

I consider myself a little more reality based than that. I voted for Kerry like I've voted for every Democrat running for President since I was able to vote.

What choice did I have? My point is, I'm sick of not having much of a choice. By the time I voted in the primaries, the front-loaded primaries, my vote didn't count. I'm sick of this shit.

[blm]

51. His team never stopped. They just aren't jumping up and down and shouting

the way you'd prefer.

I'd like to see YOUR credentials and the work YOU have done over the last 35 years to advance justice and progressive policy. You must have done quite a bit to launch such a high and mighty attack on the man who investigated and exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history.

[CatWoman]

52. heh

don't hold your breath, BLM.

[DemBones DemBones]

76. Don't hold your breath for Kerry to come out and fight this fight.

He's gone diplomatic on us -- "go along to get along" is the name of that game.

[KittyWampus]

95. Where's Dennis In All This? He's From Ohio, After All

[zulchzulu]

53. Thanks for bashing Kerry after NOT doing your homework

Pathetic...

Kerry and his legal team HAVE been in Ohio, Florida and other hot spots where BBV occurred since the Election. He and the campaign HAVE made comments about the events and ARE doing something about it. Kerry has a background as a prosecutor...do you think prosecutors blurt out to who they may be going after what their strategy is?

No, they aren't screaming like banshees and showing their cards to the people that want this story to just go away.

No, a concession speech is NOT legally binding.

Whatever....trash Kerry for reasons that are lies. Don't do your homework on what has actually been happening. It's probably too complicated for you to figure out.

[VTdem]

55. Well said zulchzulu.

And how many more posts are going to be made about this exact same subject

[LittleClarkie]

57. (peterpuma) Oh, two or three. (/peterpuma)

It is getting monotonous, isn't it. And often it's coming from the same folks. I've been starting to call them the "Whiner49ers."

We all have the right, of course. But it does get tedious, and more than alittle depressing, esp. for those who still support the man.

[cidliz2004]

68. I've heard and read of the other parties asking for

recounts and looking into the votes. When I have seen Kerry he has been very introspective and stated that not winning against a sitting president during war time was to be expected. I also recall Kerry conceding with lightening speed. I haven't heard or read of much initiation of action in disputing this race, nor has it been covered in news shows. There is only so much that I can read, so please share your sources. As an aside, when I am looking to a leader for LEADERSHIP, I hope that I wouldn't have to put my ear to the wall with a glass so that I could get my information.

As many Americans, I work, and I have a lot of other things going on presently, so again excuse me if I don't have ALL of the information.

I look at the people in the Ukraine and I see the absolute devotion to a fair election and I am really jealous.

[DemBones DemBones]

77. YES!!! You have summed it up so well. It should not be a secret if Kerry

is fighting for us. It's very curious that he wouldn't ask for a recount anywhere -- and wouldn't even wait until all the votes were counted before conceding!

We all know he was ahead in the polls and in the exit polls and in the early vote counts. Suddenly, magically, Bush** pulled ahead. COUP TWO!!!

When Dems behave like Kerry has, we may as well not vote at all. The system is rigged and the Dems aren't fighting hard enough.

Edit: Who cares if a concession speech is legally binding? The diehard Kerry supporters keep pointing out the concession wasn't legally binding while simultaneously saying he's been quiet to avoid being Gore-ed with "sore loserman" branding. If he's worried about being branded a sore loserman by just asking for a recount or two, what are the chances he'd retract his concession and insist that he won? Once you concede in a public speech, the American public considers it a done deal.

[bunny planet]

105. Thank you zulchzulu, well said.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

62. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, er....

WE WON'T BE FOOLED AGAIN!

[Cobalt Violet]

63. All the naysayers need to read this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x146067

[cidliz2004]

65. Thanks for the info

Maybe there is hope after all. I just hope against hope that I am wrong and that Kerry does have something up his sleeve and that we are now beginning to see the beginning of the end of Bush.

[Sub Zero]

67. I expected this

when he took vacation time prior to the election.

Sometimes in politics it's a question of who wants it more. Taking vacation time prior to the election, IMO, was grossly irresponsible. Every moment should have been spent working to get votes. During that time he could have been in Ohio, for instance.

Anyway, he just didn't come across as a candidate that was going to fight it out.

[ChiciB1]

71. Give Me Kerry Anytime...

I saw this man in Tampa the Sunday before the election and shook hands with him. I would vote for him again tomorrow because after seeing him in person he was so much more than you saw on TV! Many people who were there said the same thing.

I think America has just been sucked down into some kind of vortex and it's going to take some time to get our bearings again. I don't blame it on Kerry... I blame it on corporate corruption and all those idiots with BLINDERS on! Even the MEDIA doesn't sqeak much these days!!

I've pondered this question over and over and I can't come up with a good solution. He was damned if he did something and he's damned if he doesn't. Even at this late date, people are working hard to get SOMETHING done, and it's still a big GOOSE-EGG!

Maybe it's all just as simple as Money Talks and Shit Walks! The Kerik situation really opened my eyes a little. I kind of felt like we almost got a good look into some hard core corruption going on. This guy smells bad... AND Guiliani is so tight with him. Shades of the Mafia crossed my mind. I think The Idiot is in it up to his eye-balls and the fact that so many are jumping ship may be our first look into what may be coming!

If ONLY Colin Powell would open his YAP! He must have been visited by Daniel Webster and sold his soul, because I think he has the BEST story to tell!

[DemBones DemBones]

74. Not me. And if he's doing something behind the scenes,

it will have to be absolutely breathtaking in scope and cleverness to restore any of my respect for him. That goes for my husband, too, and my local Dem friends. Some of us are considering re-registering as Independents because it's not only Kerry who's a major disappointment this year. How many Dems voted against the "intelligence" bill? I read that the bill includes a provision for national control of drivers' licenses, i.e., national i.d. cards. (Then I did a search and read that national i.d. cards were actually approved in a bill passed under and signed by Clinton. Whatever the case, Dems aren't standing up for our Constitutional rights.)

I could go on and on, having just finished giving the DNC my written opinion on their spinelessness in the 2004 campaign and in general. My husband and I deeply regrat having given several hundred dollars to John Kerry and the DNC this year. It could have been better spent on almost anything.

[Debralasv]

80. hmmm?

Seems like you weren't for John Kerry to start with. You must have been ABB? That was one of the problems with this election, sour grapes from the primaries.

The DNC never influenced my vote for Senator John Kerry in the primaries.

Nor will it ever!

[DemBones DemBones]

85. No, I WAS for Kerry. He wasn't my first choice, Dennis Kucinich was,

but once it became obvious back in the sping that Kerry would be the nominee, I quite using my Kucinich avatar. I started using it again just a couple of weeks ago.
I was never ABB, don't think I could have voted for Dean or Lieberman.

I don't have any sour grapes from the primaries, except with the media for their unfair treatment of all the Democrats. The media pushed Kerry, then tore him down. (They tore Kucinich down all along, but that was hardly Kerry's fault. )

My husband and I have been voting Democratic since 1968 and we gave more money to John Kerry then any other candidate (several hundred dollars, maybe $1000.) My husband voted for Kerry in the primay, I voted for Kucinich, and we both voted Kerry in the general election.

We put a lot into John Kerry so we have every right to complain about how he's disappointed us. I also gave to Dennis Kucinich and he delivered on his promises to stay in the race and fight for change. Kerry said he'd fight, but then folded like a cheap suit.

[The Flaming Red Head]

79. I'm not voting anymore. Everyone thinks REAL voting is a big joke

Why bother? We don't count and they seem to want only conservatives in the Democratic party, not people like me, or my mother, or my son, or any of our friends. We're offensive to the body politic. Our ideals, our values, our struggles, no longer matter.

[SammyWinstonJack]

83. My husband says he's not voting anymore either.

For the same reasons you have stated here. I will still vote, though I don't know why. :shrug:

[DemBones DemBones]

87. It certainly seems to be a waste of time.

What matters is who counts the votes, and now that's done by GOP-owned machines.

So much for democracy!

[bunny planet]

106. A brilliant solution. That'll help tremendously.

:wtf:

[zulchzulu]

81. EXCELLENT article that explains what Kerry is doing since Nov. 3

http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm

Maybe people forgot about Cam Kerry...a lawyer...his brother... one of his first press releases:
" Election protection lawyers are still on the job in Ohio and Florida and in DC making sure all the votes are counted accurately. I have been conferring with lawyers involved and have made them aware of the information and concerns people have given me. Even if the facts don't provide a basis to change the outcome, the information will inform the continuing effort to protect the integrity of our elections."

Another interesting point was that Bush was going to attack Fallujah right after the election and say things like “How could Senator Kerry undermine our security while our troops are in the midst of battle..." if Kerry hadn't conceeded when he did, which was also not a legally binding agreement anyway.

In case you missed Kerry's Nov. 9 speech, here's an MP3:
http://www.kerrysupport.com/media/kerry_110904.mp3

[WilliamPitt]

84. pzzzzzzcheeeeezzzzzz

http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/13/national/13ohio.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=324234

[DemBones DemBones]

86. Tell us another one, Will, Many of us aren't buying

your line any longer.

[WilliamPitt]

88. You're breaking my heart

[DemBones DemBones]

89. I'm sure. But why isn't your heart broken about Kerry?

"Kerry Asks to See Ohio Ballots" -- big whoop!

Yeah, he's asking for his lawyers to inspect disputed ballots.

Meanwhile, preparations for another Dubya inauguration are full steam ahead and Poppy's boy is wearing his personalized Commander in Chief jacket.

If Kerry tried to come out now and fight, Americans, not to mention the media, would say "Too late, you conceded and disappeared from the scene."

:argh:

[ChiciB1]

92. Hanging With You Will Pitt!

I'm getting soooooooo tired of hearing these defectors!! It's my belief that the election was stolen anyway and Kerry really was put in a bind. There are several posts here that others should read and get some perspective. What else can he do????

When dealing with corruption that's been going on for more than 10 years, and having NO MEDIA to really question what has been done, how in the hell is anyone able to break through all the CRAP???

However, I would like to see the Democrats in Congress get off their BUTTS and DO SOMETHING!!!!

Ever since the election I've stayed so "in your face" that I even have a wooden sign in my yard that says "We Are A BLUE STATE Home!" Part of my all BLUE lights and BLACK ribbons Christmas decorations. The sign is outlined with BLUE lights. I don't CARE what ANYONE thinks... WE WON and I'm NOT jumping ship! I'M a LIBERAL, and to that post about Progressives accepting Liberals... well, we have always been the Democratic Party, thank you very much!

[zulchzulu]

94. Does ignoring evidence that Kerry HAS been doing something make you feel..

...cool?

Ah.

Ignore evidence Kerry and his legal team HAVE been working behind the scenes to get to the bottom of the election results...

Ah. Sure feels good, don't it...

[cidliz2004]

107. Sacasm, your posts are riddled with it

How many battle were led and won with the LEADER leading the charge under the radar? Some of us want to see a leader actually not be afraid of "name-calling". So what if the "media" labels Kerry a "sore loser". "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me" We are suppose to learn something from that when we are children? How many names were being thrown around in the Ukraine? Is that stopping the process of holding a fair election and righting a wrong from an unfair election, Hell, even poison didn't stop that LEADER. Since when do you think that staying behind the scenes and being quiet is going to be successful? While Kerry and his group are being quiet, the American public is going on with their lives and many that voted for Kerry are just accepting that Bush was re-elected. The more time that goes on the more people will slip into complacency and acceptance of Bush for another 4 years. While that is happening, Kerry is losing valuable American support. By the time (if ever) Kerry opens his mouth, it will be too little too late. If Kerry couldn't succeed with a great deal of media attention, while the American people were interested and watching and hoping, what makes you even begin to think that NOW or sometime in the near future, the American people will again be inspired, or even think possible or even give a damn, when Kerry does open his mouth? The more "quiet time" there is the more that this situation slips into the backround and eventually dissapears from the concern of the vast majority of the American People. Wake up, there aren't millions of people just WAITING for Kerry to do something, the vast majority of Americans have accepted the inevitable and have gone on with thier lives.

Us, "whiners" simply see the writing on the wall and we want change from the status quo - being - that every Washington Politician who first and foremost wants to protect their ass before even considering defending ours.

[zulchzulu]

108. Again, you presume the myth that Kerry has said or done "nothing"

Your post again points to the same problem I have with other Kerry bashers who have no idea what they are talking about.

Kerry has made it known his intentions to look into the voter fraud and IS doing something about it. There are press releases and other stories that have been out there for those of us who have kept up with the story.

Perhaps you don't understand the situation where Kerry and staff needs to prepare evidence first that would stand up legally and not look even worse than if he just starting screaming like an idiot.

Should Kerry ruin his career as a Senator with years still there and gain the perception that Democrats are sore losers by preemptively doing his version of a Dean Scream to appease you? Maybe you don't know how the media works.

Kerry and his legal staff are working on finding out about what happened and are not going to show their cards to those that want to shoot down their view as soon as possible.

[sangh0]

110. s/he also presumes that s/he has done more than Kerry

even though all I've seen are a few angry posts on DU.

Way to talk truth to power, cidliz2004!!!!

[cidliz2004]

116. Again, the "quietness" and "time passing"

are the worst enemies. People are slipping into complacency with the outcome of the election. Time is also going to work against the issue. Do you remember the riots and protest marches against the Viet Nam War by chance? That wasn't quiet nor did it work below the radar. Results came because of speaking out in public loud and clear.

The "quiet" reaction was the same when the Swift Boat Vets started their attacks on Kerry. It was then admittedly a mistake of the Kerry camp to then take it "quietly".

It is a difference of opinion. So before you attack me for having an opinion that differs from yours, maybe you need to learn that RESPECTING other people's opinions is something that we all value in a Democracy.

[graywarrior]

93. Jesus this is getting old

Stop trying to convince me to hate Kerry.
Get a political history education.
Admit that we're all like a herd of cats, that is, untameable and quityerbitchin.

If Kerry fucks up, he fucks up. You don't like it, run for office.

[Lone Pawn]

96. Most of America doesn't believe there was fraud.

He'd turn off more people by spouting "tinfoil" theories than he would by accepting it gracefully and pissing off the relatively tiny tinfoil base.

[Cheswick2.0]

103. Wow you aren't very good at this

I don't particularly like Kerry, but I am not blind.

[Mike L]

104. Who would vote for him after his PATHETIC campaign?

Not I.

[Bouncy Ball]

109. Fug you.

And the horse you rode in on.

Got any more salt? Ooooh, I love that salt.

[lojasmo]

111. Never again. Count on it. N/T

[Seabiscuit]

113. I would reluctantly vote for Kerry over Bush again as I did this time.

It wasn't a vote for Kerry. It was a vote against Bush.

We need to do a lot better than Kerry in 2008.