Dean says.." we are not safer because SH is in custody"...he is berated

[Gin]

by everyone for it....now.....the thugs go to level orange because of a new threat....duh.....methinks dean is right!

[poskonig]

1. Amen!

:yourock:

[HFishbine]

2. Americans Agree

"But 51 percent of Americans say they don’t feel much safer or more secure now that Saddam is in custody (41 percent do)."

(Newsweek Poll: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3768353/)

[tsipple]

35. 78 Percent in the CBS/NYT Poll

Slightly different question wording, but similar result and more of it. (Actually, that 78 percent includes many people who say that we're less safe now.)

[tridim]

3. Dean will make a statement

as such in a few hours, mark it. He's on the ball.

[bigtree]

5. Bush administration hypes the terror threat level

Dean concurs?

[HFishbine]

7. Whoah!

Grab that horse before it gets out of the barn there pardner. There are arguments left and right here that because of the dangers of the "post 9/11 world" we need a certain kind of leader. Dean is not the democrat who is playing in Bush's court.

[bigtree]

13. I personally don't see much actual daylight between Kerry and Dean's

future intentions in Iraq. I was really reflecting on the bogus terror alerts that have come in the past which seem designed to keep American's fearful and tied to Bush's aggressive foreign policy.

Surely Dean would not, as tridim suggests, echo anything out of Ridge's office or use anything that comes out of this administration's mouth to bolster their contention that we are not safer for the capture of Saddam as Gov. Dean contends.

Facts on the ground should be enough for your argument.

[Scott Lee]

4. Of course Dean is right. He must get sick of being right so much.

And I'll bet he routinely sits back and chuckles as his detractors try to spin their own bad pasts acts (John Kerry and your pro-IWR bad seff, I'm looking in your direction) into positives with the swirling of the political winds. It's really quite comical.

[ddye]

6. oh boy...

Don't ban me, I'm new, but...

We're not going to win until we take back the center for the Democratic Party, and that's the truth. If Dean wins the nomination it'll be like McGovern all over again, followed by a purge of the far left in the party.

It's amazing that Dean has positioned himself so badly that every good thing that happens for America is bad for Dean's campaign. Do you really thing that mainstream America is going to be attracted to THAT?

[sugargoose]

9. I don't think you are really listening to Howard Dean

read for yourself rather than accepting a vague picture painted by the far-right media

[ddye]

12. re: I don't think you are really listening to Howard Dean

Look, I know he's not as looney as the right wing makes him out to be, but they are going to paint him that way, and that is what America will see. Despite the youthful idealism I see here, that is what will happen.

You cannot deny that he's positioned himself in such a way that good news for America is bad for him. I'll bet that Libya renouncing WMDs will even hurt him, and that's sad, but he's done it to himself.

If you really want to elect a Democrat, find a tough, moderate Southern Democrat with some cojones. America likes that, and so do I.

[HFishbine]

18. My New Friend

You are sorely mistaken on a couple of points. First, you assume that the way the riech wing wants Dean to be portrayed is what America will see. In 2000, perhaps, but no longer. Dean has 500,000 soldiers prepared to spread the truth. He has the financial support to counter the reich wing propaganda. He has masterfully discovered how to use the internet to subvert the "fair and balanced" media. And most importantly, he stands up. The reich is in for a shock, and not only because they won't be able to use their tired tactics on this new dem, but because Dean has the truth on his side.

Another point. Lybia has been working to open its weapons program to inspections since 1998.

[ddye]

23. re: "My New Friend"

500,000 soldiers? I got out of college a LONG time ago. Look, I'm a lifelong Democrat, I've only voted Republican once in my entire life (I voted for Sen. John Warner R-VA to reward him for the way he stood up to Ollie North), but I really do not want to vote for someone who could cost Democrats five or six Senate seats.

Like I said, Democrats need to take back the center in this country, this idealistic college stuff will not cut it in today's America.

Mark my words, if Dean wins the nomination he's gonna get creamed, and the Democrats with him.

500,000 soldiers? puleeze!

[HFishbine]

44. 500,000 soldiers?

What are you questioning? The number or the metaphor?

[mzmolly]

53. I smell a new Clark supporter fresh from the blog

*snif snif* Welcome :)

[mouse7]

20. "Good/Bad" dynamic is the way EVERY political race works

It doesn't matter whether you are talking about a city council race, and congressional race or a Presidential primary. What is good for one candidate is bad for the rest. That's what happens when you have winners and losers in elections. I have to point out that what you say about Dean is true about every candidate in every race. The imcumbant office holder hopes for good news regarding the position they hold. The challenger gets boosted by bad news happening in said position.

There are also different types of "strong." "Strong on defense" doesn't seem so strong if you leave your troops hated in a foreign land with few real allies. Suddenly "strong on diplomacy" can seem like a real good idea if it improves our image in the worlod so we are less hated, attacked less often, and helped in the work that needs to be done by strong allies.


I realize you are new here. Don't worry about that. You're welcome here.

[ddye]

27. mouse 7

Thanks for your kind words.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. I'm flattered that you call me young

I'm nearly 53, and have been active in politics since the late 60s.

I don't see him as positioning himself on foreign policy so that 'good' news will hurt him.

Although I live in Arkansas, I don't like the insistance on a Southern strategy. For one thing, look at the demographics of the last election. We want someone who will take on Bush, but I don't think that the Democrats are going to win the 'bubba vote'-right wing Christians have told me quite bluntly that Bush is the Second Coming and that I was going to hell because I protested going to war!

[eileen from OH]

33. Okayyyyy. .. .

You think that if the Dems nominate a tough moderate Southern Democrat that the 'pubs will refrain from bashing them? Being all those things didn't help Max Cleland much in his own damn state. I get a tad tired of thinking that somehow the 'pubs will take it easier on a moderate. You think any candidate will look like a "moderate" when Rove and company get through with them? Take a look at what they tried - and almost succeeded - in doing to Mary Landrieu who supported the war, supported Bush, played the nonpartisan role and they went after her like rabid pit bulls ANYWAY. (By the way, if anyone has an analysis over why one survived and one didn't I'd like to see it.)

Lookit - in terms of the slime and smears that the 'pubs will dish out it doesn't matter WHO the nominee is - they will lie and lie and lie some more and nasty attacks ad nauseum. The difference between the candidates is how they respond and if they can deflect and (better yet) manage to turn it back on them. Dean's already shown some pretty good expertise in that department as he's had to do it on a daily basis against other Dems, for pity's sake.

As to Dean positioning himself so that good news for America is bad for him, that's true of all the Dem candidates. In fact, it's true of ANY challenger to an incumbent. If you want to beat someone in office you have to show how you would do something BETTER which is an implicit criticism of the good things that result from the incumbent's action. It's all in how they phrase their response. Dean's answer right after the capture of Saddam was right on target in that area. (Good thing for Iraqi's, good thing if it prevents more of our boys from being killed, and frankly, good for the administration. And he basically said that he wouldn't comment anymore on it on the day it happened.)

eileen from OH

[Rose Siding]

54. Brit Hume flayed Clark in about 30 seconds today...

over his "candid" comments. Hume said, "Isn't it a little immature politically to say you'll kick the blank out of someone" and of the whispered "my father's jewish", that was just silly according to this repub news reader. But *then* he said, "of course that won't bother Democrats"

My point is that ANY ANY ANY Democrat will be tossed and churned and pummeled. Dean has taken these attacks before and thrived. He is a proven political fighter. And he trusts the people. ROFL, I can't think of ANTHING more MACHO than to trust the people.

[Patriot_Spear]

14. Naw, Dean will beat the sh*t out of the repukes...

That's why they're playing mind games- they don't want to face Dean, his legion of supporters or his fundrasing juggernaut!

[PATRICK]

17. If true

Dean still is performing the service of slamming the hype that makes Bush even a contender. Someone has to take it head on. However, if he wins the primaries without winning the PR policy battle, this awakening of Amemrica may be postponed until the historians of the post-Bush era- if there is one.

As with the anti-war movement itself, time is running out to build the natural strength needed to stop another Bush theft. The media drags, the institutions and even internal party powers are not going away even with the glow of a nomination win. In fact, as with other contenders large portions of the party doubted, the convention victory will not necessarily help with the main battle of winning people to the naked truth. It didn't work with Mondale and he had the dollars and sense figures and common sense. Even without Eagleton(which was mainly a pretext last straw) McGovern never got his war and peace reality issues through either and people were dying for demonstrable illusions then too.

I am not identifying Dean with the "losers" but the struggle for ther minds and hearts of Americans will not be won with primary victories necessarily in our era either. If not truth, then charism has to win the day or a real anti-Bush fervor unprotected by the media. This is the gut uncertainty that roils the prospect of a Dean candidacy which only in part has to with Dean himself. With the media slant God couldn't win on the certainty of truth and quality.
In fact, God has often lost.

[Zinsipperlover]

19. Has Dean peaked again??

I am soooooo tired of these ad nauseum Dean equals McGovern posts. The truth is no pundit can really predict reliably how Dean will do. It is all speculation and opinion at this point. Since early June, Dean's campaign has been compared to McGoverns, Mondales, Gingrich, etc... it makes me want to :boring:

[mouse7]

22. You're new, but...

I'm far left. If you intend to "purge" me, good luck. You'll need it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

26. Welcome, and a question

This is asked out of curiosity, not hostility: What makes you think Dean is far left?

Here are some reasons I feel Dean is a centrist:

1. His position on staying in Iraq until it is stabilized

2. His position on gun control.

3. His position that when it comes to controversial issues such as civil unions, each state should decide for itself

4. His health care program

[ddye]

34. re: "Welcome, and a question"

I didn't say he was far left, I said that he WILL be portrayed to be that way, and America WILL see it that way. I agree that he is somewhat of a centrist, but the perception is what's going to matter, and all of the "move to the center for the election" isn't going to change this.

The Confederate flag remark was actually very astute, if badly worded. Most Democrats do not understand Southerners at all. I work with Democrats here in Virginia, and they can't even use the word "Democrat" on their campaign signs!

Democrats can be perceived as strong, look at Harry Truman, Scoop Jackson, Hubert Humphrey, even Joe Lieberman.

I've lived up north and down south, and down here, Dean is perceived as the champion of the granola-munching, politically correct left wing college crowd. Unfairly or not, that's how a lot of regular Americans are seeing him right now.

[mouse7]

38. Media would say Pat Buchanan liberal if he switched Dem

You need to get used to ignoring the broken record that corporate media has become.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

40. I live in Arkansas

and have lived in Texas and Illinois. I work in one of the most politically conservative towns in northwest Arkansas (where even Bill Clinton couldn't even win the Congressional seat), and I'm the only person in town with Dean signs on my car. I've seen exactly two Clark signs, and no other signs for any Democratic candidate. I have been stopped and asked about Dean by many small businesspeople (I work as an office manager and see a lot of small businesspeople in my work). They have asked about Dean and have never said anything unfavorable about him. They HAVE said that Bush is lousy for the economy and the military and that he must be replaced. I have detected no prejudice towards Dean because he's a Northerner. From this personal experience, I feel that Dean's message can be heard by the typical American, at least in my neck of the woods. It's a matter of person to person contact.

[thinkahead]

43. "will be portrayed"

only if we let them, as we have for the last 3+ years.

Take the fight to them, friend. Do not fret, we CAN and WILL win with Dean.

[Scott Lee]

29. what perfect Bush-speak

So you are insinuating that Bush-hole administration positions are all "good for America" (like the capture of Saddam)?

Are you sure you want to take that tack?

[ddye]

37. re:what perfect Bush-speak

Of course not!

Most of America thought catching Saddam was pretty cool, and so did I. Don't you like it when we get something right? Doesn't it embarrass you that Dean had to first congratulate the Bush administration, then start nitpicking one day later?

Are you saying that anyone who saw SOME point in the war isn't a Democrat? There are a lot of candidates who would disagree. I agree with them, I didn't think that it was the perfect response to 9-11, and I thought Bush screwed up both the diplomacy leading to the war AND the post war strategy, but I would have voted with Kerry and Lieberman and Edwards.

Is the Lieberman/Kerry/Edwards position too "conservative" for this forum? Are we not Democrats too?

[mouse7]

41. Lieberman and Kerry looked REAL bad today.

Both attacked Dean all week for not acting like them that capturing Saddam would solve all the world's problems, feed the hungry, and remove all unwanted hair. This morning the news broke that the Saddam story is a big lie. The Kurds actually captured Saddam, and who knows how long ago they actually captured him. The staory is all over the European media.

Just as the story was about the break here, out walks Tom Ridge to increase the terror alert level.

So either Ridge was sent out by Karl Rove to distract attention from the lie about Saddam's capture, or Howard Dean is one of the most brilliant political analysts of our time, making himself look borderline psychic by declaring the US wasn't safer after Saddam got captured. Neither is good news for Dubya, Kerry and Lieberman.

[Scott Lee]

57. Bulletin: Saddam's capture meant BUBKIS to anything of substance

I'm so sorry you see this war as some sort of shirt vs. skin's ball game ("we got a basket, woohoo!") but it's anything but. Real people are really dying for really bad policy decisions of the worst president in history. If you want to pump sunshine up the Warchimp's skirt, then go ahead - but I doubt you'll get much of an audience here.

And by the way - any Democratic candidate who apes the Warchimp (yes Lieberman, I'm looking in your direction) is no better and will never be getting my vote.

[polmaven]

8. Yes, he is right

Howard Dean is not my first choice of the Democratic candidates, but I could not agree more with him on this issue.

I haven't heard anyone to date explain just how it is that America is safer because Saddam has been captured.

Will all of the real enemies who are really imminent threats to the U.S. now run in fear because "America means what it says"? I don't think so!

And OMG...I just heard Tom Delay's statement that the world is more secure since 9/11! On what planet is he living????

[boilerbabe]

10. 'thank you...it's most refreshing to see some Pro-Dean

stuff these days. I have not been on Dem Underground for a few days ,but my brother says it's been nothing but Dean bashing. Well, guess what, he's gonna be our next president if I have anything to do with it.
If he doesnt' make it, well, I am going to try to figure out which country I can learn the language of and tolerate the climate of...
I have heard that us Deanies are like cult members. Excuxse the heck out of me, but I lived in CA for 14 yrs, and I have seen every cult that you could imagine. And avoided them all. I think that this site is getting invaded by right wingers and we really need to address that one...
XXXOOO

[ddye]

16. oh really?

"If he doesnt' make it, well, I am going to try to figure out which country I can learn the language of and tolerate the climate of..."

Well, that worked out real well for Alec Baldwin, didn't it?

[mouse7]

25. Gee... you were awful quick on the "Alec Baldwin" trigger for 5 posts

I know someplace they are also quick on the "Alec Baldwin" trigger.

[madfloridian]

39. Chuckle.

:hi:

[Patriot_Spear]

11. but, but but... Dean is Angry?!

That invalidates his having been right... Doesn't it?

[madfloridian]

15. It was amazing how he was attacked by his own party for that.

It was such a common-sense, obvious position, but the others just lit into him.

Our support for him grows stronger every day.

[paulk]

21. Dean is right to say we're not safer

but he is being berated because it was such a dumb thing to say...

It's suicide politically. It's not the Dem. base that Dean (or the other candidates) needs to sppeal to to win the presidency - we're going to vote for whomever gets the nomination - it's the MOR, the independents, the "swing vote" that we need to win the GE - and Dr. Dean doesn't seem to get that. He made a remark that the 35% that are true believers will go for - a remark guaranteed to upset, if not outright piss off, the 20% we need to get over the top in the coming election.

Running for President is the big leagues - and Dean's amatuerish habit of sticking his foot in his mouth is making many question his readiness for the majors.

[poskonig]

24. Perhaps we merely have a tactical difference.

I don't believe the Daschle-Gephardt nuance/surrender strategy works well. At least when we supported candidates like McGovern and Mondale we had the congress. We've followed the DLCers for a decade and have nothing to show for it.

[paulk]

48. Dean's biggest problem is he really has to watch

what he says when it comes to National Defense. He's got no room for mistakes because it's where he's most vulnerable with the swing vote.
anything and everything will be used against him to make him look weak in this area - and not just from the Republicans.

I don't think that's the same problem as the Gephardt/Daschle quisling grovel strategy.

[Upfront]

28. Bull

The truth is never a loser in the end. If your saying the average American is to stupid to understand the truth, you may be right. If your saying Dean is stupid for stating the truth, your wrong.

[paulk]

49. it's not the average American

it's that 20% in the middle - the one's who fell for Bush's "compassionate conservatism". The one's who believed that he was a moderate, just because he said he was.

Dean's not stupid for saying the truth - he's stupid for opening his mouth when he would be better served by keeping it shut. What he said is the kind of remark that will go over well with his base - but will come back to hurt him in the GE. Dean has got to start thinking past the nomination.

[madfloridian]

32. The truth is not ever dumb.

If my party is that far gone, that the truth does not matter....then I have some things to rethink.

[paulk]

51. Like Will Rogers said -

"If you ever injected truth into politics, then you would have no politics".

[madfloridian]

64. Yep, that is right.

Wouldn't that be wonderful?

[mouse7]

36. Nice try at spin, but don't bother today.

Dean won today. He looked so correct in everything he said all week that it had the illusion of being psychic when Ridge increased the terror level.

People might buy that another day. Not today. What's sucicidal is to try to make today look like anything but a great day for the Dean campaign. Saying otherwise just makes people have less respect for your message.

Dean said US wasn't safer after capturing Saddam. Ridge just said the exact same thing. That's all that needs to be said,a nd certainly all anyone will notice at the end of the day.

[HFishbine]

46. "He made a remark that the 35% that are true believers will go for"

35%? See posts #3 and #35. Most people go for the truth. Political positioning is what has lead to the troubles the dems are in now. Dean speaks the truth and lo and behold, the majority of people agree with him. What do you know about that?

[BuelahWitch]

30. Thanks for bringing this up!

I'm putting it on one of our local boards:

"Bushco proves Howard Dean was right when he said that capturing Saddam makes us no safer than what we were before. Tommy Ridge was just on C-Span upping the alert to Orange (maybe he's still there; I turned it off). Wouldn't you think the capture of this Tyrant (?) would make us go down a level because we are now The All Powerful Nation Who Captured Saddam (or picked him up from the Kurds, I can't remember which now).

Wow, that Dean knows his stuff! I can't wait for him to move into the Whitehouse in 2005!"

Hee hee hee, this will have the local wingnuts' heads spinning and spurting pea soup!

Signed,

Sometimes a Little Disturber in KS

[bigtree]

42. Bush propaganda machine cranks out phony terror alert (again)

Dean uses the Bush/Ridge hype to bolster his post-Saddam capture statements? Did he actually do this?

Dean takes comfort in the Ridge hype? Dean believes the Bush hype?

[killbotfactory]

45. Who knew?

I mean, that invading and capturing a violent thug, with little to no connections to international terrorism, who was hiding in a hole in the ground (and obviously not coordinating attacks on our troops) would not make us safer?

Golly, I'm surprised!

[bigtree]

47. When I do the math I have to conclude that

one less dictator in that region ultimately makes America safer. The unilateral method that Bush used to unseat him however makes us, on balance, more insecure.

[RetroLounge]

63. When I do the math

Please DO. Really, please do the math for us.

We are dying to see your quantitative approach to American Safety.

What metrics are you using?
What are the equations?
Is this the New Math, or Old Math?
Are there Proofs I can follow?

Please show your work...

[bigtree]

66. This may help

One less dictator in the region is a plus for Americans, given our commitments in that region.

On balance however, detractors of this reasoning are correct in that Bush's preemptive, unilateral invasion was the wrong way to unseat this dictator. It may have made the U.S., more insecure. I don't buy into any of this administration's rational for invasion and occupation. I don't think Kerry does either. I think he intended, with his vote, to provide the threat of U.S. force to back up U.N. resolutions calling for Saddam to be accountable on the issue of WMD's. Bush misrepresented the threat in a process that normally hasn't lent itself to massive deception, especially to lead a nation to war. Sen. Kerry expected the administration to keep it's word. So did many other good and proninent Democrats in and out of government.

One thing that I have wondered about Dean. Why did he support containment of Saddam if he didn't view him as a threat to the U.S. or to our interests in the region? If Saddam was a threat then why isn't the region safer without him?

If we can get international support and lessen the sense of American occupation and control in Iraq we may be able to stabilize the region in a way that restores our credibility and reduces the threat of escalation and ends hunger among the Iraqi's for retaliation against the U.S..

[ClarkGraham2004]

50. I don't think it is a smart statement to make

in the long run it will catch up to him I think.




Clark-Graham 2004

[quaker bill]

52. Dean says... "sun will rise in the morning" ... he is berated

opponents demand immediate apology. The word is out "Dean will never carry the south with this stand on the issues"

[mzmolly]

55. LOL

:)

[DFLforever]

58. LOL

Seriously, I think his main drawn with voters, including independents, may well be this: he says what many ordinary people are thinking but what the beltway pols hesitate to say.

[slinkerwink]

56. same here too!

[zulchzulu]

59. Dean was wrong about that Saddam statement

He was wrong on a few levels. Saddam was a mass murderer. If a mass murderer is off the streets around the World, the World IS safer. Please defend Saddam as not being a mass murderer despot.

Catching Saddam was bad for Dean's campaign, so he tried to change the dialog to be about how it's no big deal...

It doesn't mean that the World is like totally like safe now, dude...so like if there is another event that happens, like Dean is like right, dude... Sheesh...

If anything, the "Saddam comment" did indeed show that Dean can't just shut his trap sometimes.

He showed to me an utter predictability that he can't own up to past statements he made about Saddam as a threat either. In that same interview, he said he never thought Saddam was a threat. But if you look at past quotes he made about Saddam, he said Saddam indeed was a threat.

[mouse7]

60. Dean was right about that Saddam statement, maybe not others

Dean knocked THAT Saddam statement last Monday 550 feet over the center field fence into the upper deck for a grand slam. Don't even try to spin THAT statement as anything but the fantastic political play it has turned into since the threat level was increased today.

Has Dean been inconsistant on Saddam. Yep. Everyone but Kucinich and Sharpton have been inconsistent on Saddam. Dean has been the least inconsistant regarding Saddam of the media annointed big 6 candidates. He never supported entering Iraq unilaterally. Dean on an Iraq war if mandated by the UN Security Council was inconsistant.

[dsc]

62. You computer is selectively editting

or you are. For the record, Dean said America is no safer not the world is no safer. Clearly Saddam was bad and his removal makes the world slightly more safe by making Iraq much more safe. But that doesn't make America safer. To prove that you need to show Saddam was able to strike us which he clearly wasn't.

[Scott Lee]

67. Sure. That's why, post Saddam capture, we have orange alert

and today two MORE US soldiers killed after a spate of large scale killings in Iraq.

The Dean opponents are truly hilarious to the extent they will bend to make Dean look "wrong".

Sorry. Dean was and is right about Saddam being no threat to us. Dean must get sick of being right so often.

[TexasSissy]

61. Of course the world is safer, in the long run.

Bush headed this one off at the pass, when he said to the public not to expect the violence to decrease because of SH's capture.

But not having a tyrant bent on the west's destruction is advantageous to us in the long run, of course. Any rational person would think that. But that doesn't mean we should've pre-emptively bombed Iraq. There are other dangerous tyrants out in the world; we're not pre-emptively bombing them, are we? (let's cross our fingers)

But too bad he's not the one who killed 3,000 people on 9/11! Now THAT would be safer WITH justice.

[LuminousX]

65. Bush only had the Alert raised to help Dean

</sarcasm>

[bigtree]

68. who has implied this?

Terror alerts: Used in the past to keep Americans fearful and yoked to Bush's policy of perpetual war. Or, to cover their asses if some nut does manage to blow up something.

They want to avoid more 'Bush knew' accusations. (Even though they did know about the 9-11 threat beforehand)

What is the purpose in using the hyped alert to justify Gov. Dean's statements following Saddam's capture?

Has Gov. Dean jumped on the alert as vindication for his remarks? Hope not.