Dean warns against sacrificing Democratic values for public appeal.

[madfloridian]

Here is more from his Dartmouth speech last night.

http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004110801010

"There will not be retreat on behalf of the Democratic Party," Dean said, exhorting the audience to make the United States the strongest nation in the world in moral values and moral leadership.

Dean emphasized the importance of the Democratic Party's commitment to its core values and principles, saying that the nation did not need "two Republican parties." He was emphatic about not sacrificing Democratic values for public appeal. We are in the middle -- we can't do this anymore. We have come too far," he said.

I think he words this part well:
"Dean emphasized the importance of appealing to Southern evangelical Christians, who he said hold more common values with Democrats than Republicans. Echoing rhetoric from his Dartmouth appearance last week, Dean said Republicans focus on "guns, God, gays and abortion," issues that divide and frighten the American people rather than unite them.

Democrats and evangelical Christians are both concerned about economic stability, jobs and job opportunities and education, Dean said, adding that Americans need to stop dividing themselves through religion...."

[Skittles]

1. THANK YOU HOWARD

I REFUSE TO OOMPROMISE MY PRINCIPLES TO CATER TO F***ING BIGOTS

[Catfight]

2. Exactly Skittles!

[RogueTrooper]

3. thanks mf

good to see our man still have his mojo.

[spooky3]

4. Dean should head Dem Leadership.

[StevieM]

5. You know....I think I am really warming up to Howard Dean.....

I didn't used to like him, but he's slowly winning me over. Let's see if it keeps up.

Steve

[hippiechick]

6. Give me my marching orders, Doc !!!

I'm still with ya !!!

:yourock:


:hippie:

[neonplaque]

7. Full transcript, anyone? n/t

[incapsulated]

8. SIGN THE PETITION TO MAKE DEAN DNC CHAIR

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/deanfordnc

[Voltaire]

29. That's a petition I will not sign

Dean would be co-opted and neutered as head of the DNC. I want him to run again OUTSIDE this decrepit party.

[shance]

38. Im concerned DNC has little interest in changing their ways

I wonder if they aren't too 'trained' and comfortable in what seems to be a rather corporatized mentality.

How much change can an individual implement in an environment that isnt as interested as changing as they are having that individual conform to their ways and beliefs, and in an environment that rewards conformity more than it does creativity and expansion?

Seems like it could potentially be a place where Governor Dean would be more restricted. I wonder if he would actually given free reign to do what he seems to do best. Motivate,inspire and build unity through his actions and his loyalty.

What I have seen of the DNC has certainly been limited, however, I have consistently observed theres more talk from the DNC than there has ever been action. That's essentially all it has been, talk. Will that change? I have always appreciated Dean's consistency and his straight forwardness. I wonder if that environment will condone and respect those qualities.

My thoughts.

[mandyky]

50. Hear, Hear!!

While I think that Dean would make a great DNC chair, I want him to run in 08 and I don't want the party messing with his message.

[slor]

35. DONE!!! n/t

[Guaranteed]

44. Done and done. nt

[sampsonblk]

9. That's the kind of persuasion we needed on the campaign trail

We are not wrong. Almost all the issues favor us if we press ahead with what we believe in. I feel like we are apologizing for the New Deal and the Civil Rights era all at once here. We aren't wrong. They are. There is no reason to give up our beliefs (and great accomplishments) to appease the Republicans and the idiot swing voters.

[IrateCitizen]

10. Exactly the same thing said on this week's NOW with Bill Moyers

Bill Moyers interviewed black civil rights attorney and UC Berkeley Professor Christopher Edley, Jr. Edley worked in the Clinton Administration on race issues in 1997.

Essentially, Edley raised the "values" issue in regard to the Democratic Party. He said that the Dems needed to be able to sum up their platform in the terms of a few basic values that you can tie everything back to, and that they had to stop being ashamed about what their values are.

When asked on the question of whether the party needs to move "center" or "left", he was quite explicit. He said that the chase of the "swing voter" had left many voters wondering what the Democratic Party stood for, if anything. He said that the Democrats needed to be unabashed about what they stood for, and remain true to it, and then and only then would they be able to inspire a majority of the electorate to vote for them again.

[madfloridian]

11. But here's the irony.....he was not considered "electable."

Too blunt, too brusque, too passionate.

Sure can't have that.

[Tweed]

12. Hear hear: Populism

Pure and simple, yell it loud

[m berst]

68. Populism

Maybe if you get a chance, take a look at this article I found on populism. I think that a populist movement can break out of the trap that we progressives often find ourselves. It isn't a right-left dilemma, or a policy or position debate, but more a matter of finding an easier more people-friendly path. The political scene is so cerebral and so given over to vicious infighting, that it is just draining and self-defeating.

I remember Hubert Humphrey's early career - who came from the midwest farmer-socialist populist movement - talking about the "politics of joy." Sounds kind of corny today, but the combination of down-to-earth common sense and upbeat positive outlook was pretty powerful.

What they were able to do there in Minnesota was to involve and engage the average person in the process.

Link: http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_070500_populism.htm

Some snips -

<snip>

In strictly historical terms, Populism refers to a third-party movement that materialized in America in the 1890s, generating a spirited energy that also caused a certain alarm near the seats of the mighty.

In an effort to restructure American politics, Populists formed the People's party, which was free of corporate influence. The new party polled over a million votes in its initial campaign in 1892, made sizable gains in 1894, and then joined with the free-silver wing of the Democratic party to support William Jennings Bryan's unsuccessful presidential candidacy in 1896. Having lost much of its distinctive identity in the course of its "fusion" with the Democrats, the third party suffered an abrupt decline thereafter.

<snip>

The parent institution of populism, the National Farmers Alliance and Industrial Union, set up an elaborate lecturing system that turned some forty thousand "suballiances" into a veritable schoolroom of economic and political inquiry. The Populist reforms were not only broadly egalitarian and democratic but workable as well. Instead of appearing as mindless provincials, the reformers were regarded as humanistic advocates who numbered within their ranks prominent reform editors and organizers—Catholic, Jewish, and African-American as well as white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant. Historian Walter T. K. Nugent summarized matters in the title of his book: The Tolerant Populists.

The Populist experience shows how easily election campaigns and the legislative process are made vulnerable to powerful economic influences and how these malpractices can be brought into public view through critical appraisals generated by self-organized popular constituencies. There is a third, rather unwanted, discovery—the multiple hazards to popular democracy that persist in highly stratified and socially isolated modern populations. As the Populist experience clarifies the interrelationship of these dynamics, a series of long-standing assumptions about political conduct in the modern state have come under sustained revaluation.

</snip>

Now check this out about public apathy -

<snip>

For generations, many scholars took the sudden appearance of citizen politics in any society as some sort of "spontaneous" happening through which the routine "apathy" of "ordinary people" was somehow temporarily overcome. As the enormous practical difficulties involved in creating organized citizen advocacy have become better understood, it is increasingly apparent that serious political movements are laboriously constructed by human hands and are in no sense "spontaneous." Indeed, the term is used by scholars to describe moments of political organization they have not otherwise researched. As such, the word spontaneous routinely conceals the social relations it purports to describe.

Moreover, given the powerful economic and cultural authority invested in prevailing forms of elite governance, the hesitancy of average citizens to expose themselves to retribution and ridicule by opposing sanctioned authority clearly involves an intelligent (if cautious) response that cannot accurately be described as "apathetic." The process through which social fear is, on occasion, overcome stands as an important and neglected question that bears directly on the long-term durability of democratic substance in any society.

</snip>

There is the key to transforming progressive politics into a mass popular movement. Helping average citizens overcome their "hesitancy to expose themselves to retribution and ridicule by opposing sanctioned authority."

Man, think about it. If WE feel beat up by the DLC apologists, what chance does the average person have against them?

[sleipnir]

13. Too bad Dean isn't the President now...

It could have been, if not for Diebold and the "good" citizens of Iowa.

Damn.

[Citizen Kang]

25. The poor citizens of Iowa

Were treated to hundreds (thousands) of negative attack ads against Dean run by Kerry's fall-guy, Gephardt. Not to mention the negative press heaped on Dean by the so-called liberal media. Besides, Dean looked to win New Hampshire to bring his campaign back and the polls before the primary were neck and neck, yet Dean lost big (electronic vote fraud helps certain Skull and Bones Democrats, too). That is why he is not our nominee.

[Mike L]

14. How will Dean appeal to fundies on "guns, God, gays and abortion"?

He's delusional if he thinks "educating" them will work. They won't change their minds.

[madfloridian]

15. Many would, if someone talked rationally to them instead of ignoring.

Not all of course, but many. Hey, I was raised that way, and I started thinking.

Our party did a lousy job of communicating. Dean is talking abortion issues and gay issues with college groups quite frequently now, I understand. He just lays out the choices and discusses it with them.

No, you are right, there are some you won't reach.

[Mike L]

16. It's easy to talk rationally to college groups.

If fundies had gone to college, they wouldn't be fundies.

[madfloridian]

17. Stop with the "fundie" stuff. I was one.

I am well-educated, a retired teacher, and a former Southern Baptist. I know the culture, and posts like yours are not helpful.

[Mike L]

18. I think I know what I'm talking about.

I have a JD, am a current Southern Baptist (although I think for myself) and I live in the culture.

They WON'T change their minds.

[madfloridian]

20. Some will change their vote in an intelligent way.

There was no opposition on the moral values issues, there was no one presenting the other side.

I am sorry, but I do not share your pessimistic view. Some not all would vote for their best interests if someone pointed out to them what they are doing.

If we take your belief, then the only way we can win is to be like them....and they are a whole lot better at that.

[xequals]

53. Would you change your cultural/social views to conservative

if someone talked to you in an intelligent way that relates to your cultural sensibilities ? I wouldn't. I'm sure most non conservatives wouldn't.

That's the question some of you have to ask yourselves when you start entertaining these unrealistic objectives. Reverse the question on yourself to see if it's practical. People aren't simply blank slates to be filled with anything. I doubt these people are all stupid or simply brainwashed. They have life experiences and strong cultural and religious beliefs that are pretty much unchangable. You'll find a person here or there who will "convert", but that is the rare exception, not the rule.

[madfloridian]

55. Where are you getting "convert." ? I just want their vote, not to convert.

Many will vote on their best interests if someone points out to them what is going on. The media did not. Thus it became our duty to point out that Bush was bankrupting the country while saying Praise the Lord.

We did not do our duty.

[democratreformed]

56. We have to bring our issues to the forefront.

We were not WRONG. We just didn't get enough attention for our issues or make the case that they were the most important ones. We need to start NOW laying the groundwork to bring our issues to the forefront.

[umtalal]

45. what changed you? what reached you? Can you elaborate.

[madfloridian]

52. The church's pro-war stance.

We took our name off the rolls when they called us unpatriotic.

I honestly sincerely believe that the Iraq War should have been the main issue. People were skeptical, people in churches were skeptical even though their pastors were preaching the good/evil war stuff.

I think many would have voted for a good moral man like Kerry if he had been against the war. However, he wasn't. And the wee cowboy out-Christianed him.

I know it sounds odd, but there should have been a difference on this war. People really wanted someone to tell them it was wrong. Two people did. Kucinich got no press. Dean got blasted out of the water.

He used the media in interviews, and made an impression about the war. But he was not the candidate. I think if we ever have truth come out, we will find that the war was major to many.....but barring a chance to vote against it....they voted for the familiar.

See, we were not honest about it, and intelligent Christians knew it. We did not stand up for what was right.

[umtalal]

57. I think you are right. My neighbor said if Kerry was against the war

he would have become president. I do know that it frustrated me that he was a pro war candidate. For some reason the democratic party is too busy appeasing and not standing for issues. Big difference in my opinion.

[madfloridian]

58. I think more will figure this out as we go along.

Right now the party is too busy making a sharp right turn to really think.

[mondo joe]

21. Clinton appealed to them. Another dem can as well.

Kerry's "brand" was all wrong for them. Too effete, too northern, too intellectual.

Like everyone, Southern voters want someone they think understands their lives.

I know it's ridiculous to think they thought Bush was any less northern elitist, but the fact is they did. It's not about the facts - it's about the branding.

[wildeyed]

36. I think you are right.

They need someone who appeals to them on a visceral level. Next go round, we need someone southern and populist. I doubt we will have to compromise our values any more than usual. It is clear that no one was paying attention to the issues, anyway.

[sonicx]

34. great, let's pander...

[loyalsister]

49. That's the point

It's a non issue, and nothing to appeal to them on. First off, on guns he has a states rights position that should be accepted as entirely reasonable.
As far as abortion and gays, they are red herrings. These are issues that don't even effect the people who base their vote on them half the time.
The thing people need to understand about voting is that it is a commodity of sorts. They should be trading it for something relevant to themselves. That's where education comes in.
For example, people need to know what they're getting for their vote. Since the abortion rate has increased, people who voted for Bush the first time because they're "pro-life" aren't getting much of a payoff. That is, if their goal is to see fewer abortions.

[smirkymonkey]

64. We don't need them if he appeals to that 40% of eligible voters

who didn't vote because they think the candidates are all the same, or that there is no substantial difference between the parties.

If someone with conviction like Dean can even inspire HALF of those people to vote and get active, we have a winning hand.

I will not support a Democratic candidate who claims we need to appease the f***ing Republitards!

[matcom]

66. WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK RAT'S ASS

FUCK the fundies!

i am SICK of this shit

[matcom]

67. YOU GO HOWARD!!!

screw these "FAUX LIBERALS" who want to win at all costs.

do NOT COMPROMISE!!!

EVER

[LuminousX]

71. You assume they need 'educating'

But all that needs is some basic missionary work to help reframe things. Get them talking about individual liberties and individual rights. The importance of keeping government out of churches and bedrooms.

Dean was making strides in reaching out to the Southern white male who keeps voting against his own self-interest because of Republican manipulation. Dean was visiting Texas and drawing large crowds.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. educating them is the only answer

we have proven you can't appeal to them by trying to be a half assed version of the republican party.
The only thing we can do is tell people the truth. People understand they truth when they hear it. It is just so rare that we do anything but pander to their baser instincts.

[Quixote1818]

76. I like Dean but he talks to the South like they are children???

Even if they are children Dean is absolutely out of touch with how to win Southern Voters. You don't talk to them like Dr. Laura talks to her audience and say all they care about are Guns, God and Gays or refer to them as having confederate flags in their windows. He is out of touch!

[UdoKier]

19. We can't listen to anything Dean says.

After all, Dean is a kook. He was kinda against the war, supports national health care, and he said "Yee-hah!" one time. We all know he said "Yee-hah" because all the radio stations played it OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER (to the nth power).

I'm pretty sure that invalidates his decades of work as a doctor and superior job as a governor.

No, what we need is a failed businessman from a southern state with a monosyllabic vocabulary and a folksy way of bombing the crap out of people who have stuff that our corporations want.

(sarcasm off)

[madfloridian]

22. Wow, so very well put..."a folksy way of bombing"....

SNIP..."No, what we need is a failed businessman from a southern state with a monosyllabic vocabulary and a folksy way of bombing the crap out of people who have stuff that our corporations want..."

Excellent sarcastic rant.
:evilgrin:

[DemCam]

23. I'm way ahead of you, Howard...

I'm in the Democratic Party because of social issues and consistantly vote against my best economic self interest.

I will not give up one value that I possess because of a period of history that is backwards and anti-progressive.

Keep saying it loud and clear.

[NoPasaran]

24. Folks, if you like what Dean says, join us!

Howard Dean performs a great service making speeches and articulating why many of us are Democrats. But the real work of rebuilding the Democratic Party and taking our country back from the radical right wing has to be done by us. Join us in Democracy for America.
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/
http://blogforamerica.com/
Find a local DFA group. If there isn't one close to you, START ONE! Together, we can win.

[madfloridian]

26. Amen..... join us.

www.blogforamerica.com

[mzmolly]

27. A VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS! Thank the Gods for Dean!

:toast:

[lasttrip]

28. finally, a leader emerges. thank you Howard.

[Malva Zebrina]

30. I don't think he should be hidden away

as chairman of the DNC.

He is far too talented to do that. I think he stands best as his own man.

[madfloridian]

31. What is all the former name stuff. I see a lot of it today.

Did a lot of folks change names?

[NYCGirl]

32. There's a name change "amnesty" set up by the mods

if someone has a name either made obsolete by the election or, I guess, just if you want to change your screen name. You won't lose post numbers or stars. Here's the thread on it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=announcement&id=124

[Malva Zebrina]

37. I don't know why others choose to do so,but I did because I think

that people were mixing me up with Mari333 according to some responses to my posts. She has not been here much but may return at some point.

[SmokingJacket]

33. Dean made my heart beat fast when I first heard him --

and not because he's a hunk, but because he's BLUNT and SMART and loaded with INTEGRITY. I think his unwillingness to pussy-foot terrified people. And you know what, I didn't agree with everything he said, but he was as close as anyone has been able to get.

You can get so SICK of the mush mouth thing. That's why I'm a Deaniac.

[leftofthedial]

39. In the platform I couldn't agree more. Amen!

In terms of political strategy, I couldn't disagree more. We need to become vicious.

[Cozmosis]

40. God, he is gonna rock as the DNC head

We can only hope, right?

[Raiden]

41. I think that it's either him or

Donna Brazile. The choice is clear: The woman who lost the 2000 election for Gore or the man who gave the Democratic party its backbone back? Hmmm, that's a toughy!


Give 'em Hell Howard!

[madfloridian]

62. I read that Donna B. backed off, said give to someone who lived out of DC

I can't find the article again.

[onecitizen]

42. Love ya still Howard

and I miss him so much. I'm feeling about how I felt when I first discovered him. Down in the dumps.

[umtalal]

48. Dean made me have faith in the democratic party again.

That senator from lousiana was commenting on Dean's stand on not moving on values. Bureax or something, but he is a southern dem. and he really thinks we should give a fig about the south after this??

I AM NOT CHANGING MY MORAL VALUES ON GAYS, GUNS, WOMEN, WAR & PEACE!!! NEVER.

[candy331]

43. Dean is right let the republicans keep with their so call moral values

until they hang themselves. There is not a genuine bone in any of their bodies, all fake and wearing out. Stand up speak the truth loudly and then even more loudly. Even Jesus Christ was not a moral man to this ban of liars. Go Dean!

[jpgray]

46. Dean is exactly fucking right (nt)

[xequals]

47. Dean's living in a fantasy if he thinks they'll drop those issues.

The social conservatives only vote on social issues. It belittles them to tell them those issues don't matter.

The way to go about this is to take this fight off of the table. The first step would be for Dems to take a more libertarian position: equal rights/opportunity for all. Everything else leave up to the states.

Until Dems do that, there's no reason for the social conservatives/fundies to stop fighting the battle. Why should they unilaterally disarm ? After all, the anti-conservative side will not be ignoring social issues.

Put it this way: if a Repub came to me and told me to ignore social libertarian issues with "Let's not let god, guns and gays divide us" but their party was still pushing god into the government and a ban on gay marriage, I would tell the Repub to go fuck himself.

[Guaranteed]

51. We're not talking about disarming them. We're talking about

beating them.

[LuminousX]

72. It isn't about having them drop those issues

it is about realigning them so they aren't sacrificing their self-interest to support those issues that the Regressive Right isn't really doing anything about.

Poor southern whites need jobs and healthcare just like poor people all over the country. Poor southerners are reached out to by the Democratic candidates becasue the Democratic candidates already assume they are going to vote for the Regressive Right and thus the only people talking to the poor southerners are the regressives who talk in terms of race and the moral decline of the cities - which are villified and spoken in negative biblical terms.

[GOPNotForMe]

54. Love love love

Lots of love for Dean right now!

[newsguyatl]

59. thank god for howard dean

[MAlibdem]

60. Hell yes Dartmouth

good talk.

[madfloridian]

61. Well, guess what, Gov,....your appeal to be ourselves is not working.

At least not if you look at this board and at the responses on the news of some of our Democrats.

See, some of us understand what you mean...that we need to stand for what WE believe....not let them define us.

But already, a lot are trying to say we just weren't enough like them to win. :cry:

[KoKo]

63. Once again Dean is the one who "shows us the way" to rebuild. I hope

he takes over the DNC but frankly he's better on his own. I would hope that we could build a new movement around him.

He's a hopeful, positive person and not a whiner and caputlation promoter. He makes me feel good to see him, and hear his speeches. I can't say that about anyone else in the Dem Party at this point.

[madfloridian]

69. I feel that way mostly as well.

I still have ideas that there could be a movement of progressive groups which exist already, and in some ways there is a little of that.

I just hope there is not too much compromise now, though I know there must be some.

We have to have an opposition party.

[prayin4rain]

65. Yeah Dean!! Man I love this guy! n/t

[tommcintyre]

70. kick

[Larkspur]

73. Dean is the shot in the arm the Dems need

I'd rather have him run for Prez in 2008, but if he doesn't want to run, I could support him as DNC Chair as long as he is allowed to spank milquetoast and reichwing Dems in public along with Repukes.

[Q]

75. "not sacrificing Democratic values for public appeal.."

- Many Bush* voters said they voted for him because he never swayed from his 'principles' and never gave up in fighting for what he believed. Of course...many of them didn't seem to care that his principles were based on fantasy & falsehoods...but the point is that they respected his resolve.

- Many Americans disrepect the Democratic leadership for their willingness to compromise too quickly and give up too easily. They want to support a party they can believe in...that won't sell them out or not defend their rights when the chips are down.

- The Dems CAN be that party again...if they throw off the corporate shills and lobbyists and get back to fighting FOR the people and their Constitution.