Should our party be more friendly to the anti-gay agenda? I say no.

[cindyw]

Many people are suggesting that Kerry lost on many things. Many here are suggesting that we have to support the anti-gay and anti-choice agendas. I am so proud that John Kerry did not take Clinton's advice. It is almost worth losing on that. So let's talk some truth here.

1. Kerry did all that we hoped he would. He kept his base, pulled in new voters, was successful across the board and pulled in some Republicans. He got more votes than any Democrat in history. What killed us was that quietly in the Churches they were telling the usual non-voters that it was their moral obligation to get out there and vote against gay marriage. These group who did not come out for Bush last time, felt that God and church was calling them. We just didn't see them coming. I for one thought bigotry was disapating in this country. I was shocked to read that in Alabama they voted not to take Segregation out of their Constitution. Hello? We should pander to these people?

2. The lesson of this election is the culture war is the elephant in the room. We now know that people across the country will throw the baby out with the bath water, die in Iraq, forgive Bush for not really keeping us safe and live in abject poverty to stop gays from getting married.

So is the answer for us to throw gay marriage over board? The answer lies in history. You have to wonder if in the past, in the midst of a culture war, progressives have had to adopt conservative ideology in order to win.

- In the mid 1800's this country was in the middle of a massive culture war. There were those who felt that slavery was right. There were those who felt it was wrong. Lincoln convinced the majority of Americans that it was wrong. Right? Wrong. Lincoln convinced the North and the South split their vote. Lincoln so greatly could not convince the majority of Americans that Slavery was wrong that the South succeeded and we fought a war.
-In the 60's this country was torn apart by another culture war. One where people simply could not accept African Americans as their equals. They killed many of those who fought for it and once Johnson took a stand and signed the Civil Rights Legislation, he could not run again.

I think there is a culture war afoot and I think we have to fight it. Kerry convinced the nation on the all other issues. The majority of the country agrees with us on every issue except the cultural ones. We must fight them. Abortion and gay rights. We have 2 choices. We can stand and fight the cultural war or our party has to change. Given the suggestions I have seen on the DU about where our party should go, either anti-gay or forever unelectable, I choose to fight the culture war. I know that it means we may lose the war, but I choose to fight it.In order to accomplish the things we care about foreign policy wise and domestically we have to get through this culture thing.

Thank you John Kerry, you did everything you promised. We love you for that, even if some of us are more interested in second guessing you. You had our back before. Have our back now in this war. Refusing to take Clinton's advice was step one. The next is a Federal Civil Union Bill. Remember Bush said he supported civil unions. Make him prove it. He will have to flip-flop or piss off those who voted him in this time.

on edit: I added my opinion in the title so that people would stop confusing my message. I did not intend flame bait.

[Walt Starr]

1. ABSOLUTELY NOT! n/t

[cindyw]

4. Read my post before you answer.

[Xipe Totec]

8. I read your post. The answer is still no.

All this backsliding will buy is another flip-flopper do-anything-to-get-elected tag. You may disagree with the position, but at least it is clear.

Remember that the strongest charge against John Kerry was that he was too nuanced in his positions. People complained that they were confused about his stance on the war, the economy, etc.

The strongest point in Chimpy's favor was that his position was clear to friends and foes alike.

So, no. Gay's rights are civil rights. I will support and defend Gays in their quest, and will expect them to support my civil rights when I end up in an endangered minority.

[cindyw]

16. You seem to be agreeing with me as far as gay rights.

As far as Kerry, I think the facts bear out that the votes that lost him the election (I think it was fraud, but let's pretend it wasn't) were moral issues. The comments that kerry was not clear was a way for the respondent not to say, I am anti-gay. I got kerry's positions on many issues and so did everyone else. otherwise Bush would not have been able to argue against them.

[AuntPatsy]

2. You don't give an inch to the enemy, I believe that this history

that you speak of should be proof of such...

[cindyw]

5. I agree with you. We are right. This is a civil rights issue.

This election proves that the other side will vote on this alone at the damage to their own lives. We have no choice but to fight.

[snacker]

3. NO

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. It's not my party but I will say NO here anyway.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[LittleClarkie]

7. Remind me of the Clinton advice you're talking abou

The "it's the economy, stupid" advice? Or is there something else I missed.

I agree. But then I knew that if we wanted John Kerry fired up, he was going to have to be himself. And the issue that really got under his skin was Iraq.

I'm proud of him too. He got something like 4 million more votes than Gore. I didn't need him to go down in flames, essentially "Gore-ing" himself. I'm going to fight like hell to make sure he's not treated as the "crazy uncle" that we always treat our failed candidates as.

When a Republican candidate fails, he often tries again. When a Dem candidate fails, we're quick to drop that one and try another until we find a winner. That's part of the problem, I think, with the Dems. We don't commit. If we think that John Kerry is a good and honest man, and would make a great president, then I'm not going to let him slip into the margins.

Kerry 08.

[Batgirl]

12. hopping on the bandwagon of hate

is risky, because if there's anything the righty "moral values" crowd can't stand (besides the gay plague threatening the fabric of our society) it's an opportunistic, fake homophobe.

Junior O'Daniel: We could hire our own midget, even shorter than his.
Pappy O'Daniel : Wouldn't we look like a bunch of Johnny-come-latelies, bragging on our own midget, doesn't matter how stumpy.

[cindyw]

13. There is a rumor that Clinton advised Kerry to come out for the state

amendments against gay marriage. Kerry said no.

[cindyw]

14. I know what you mean, I we all voted for this man to be our president for

the next 8 years. We cannot suddenly decide he sucks and kick him out in the cold.

[RafterMan]

9. Those aren't the only choices

[cindyw]

11. So tell me what they are if those aren't the choices.

[RafterMan]

15. I wish I knew.

It just seems like the debate has devolved into "stay the course" vs. "cut and run".

Surely there is a better way to procede.

[cindyw]

18. Right and I am suggesting that third option is stand and fight.

Gay rights and abortion won this election right under our noses. We have to recognize it and stand and fight. It was dangerous for Kerry to do that just before the election and I think that we all thought it was not necessary because so many people agreed with us on so many issues. i am suggesting that this election has made the third way clear. We must stand and fight these "wedge issues": if we want to accomplish everything else.

[UdoKier]

10. no.

I have a fundie RW biological mom. She says she hates gays. I plan to end contact with her if she voted for Bush or that stupid amendment (she lives in Mississippi - and works for arms-maker Raytheon.)

I honestly wish I'd never contacted her. I never dreamed she would be one of THEM.

[killbotfactory]

17. Most people aren't anti-gay, really

They just don't understand the gay marraige issue in terms of equal rights.

They think it's just an attack on a social institution.

We needed to stick up for equal rights, and explain the issue to people, and what's at stake. Not hide from it.

The hardcore fundy evangelicals are anti-gay bigots, but there's no reasoning with them anyway.

[cindyw]

20. See my response to #15

On the johnkerry forum, I think I can out myself now as a mod, I spent a lot of time explaining Kerry position on gay rights to gays. I think thought that the fight has to go beyond that now to a fight with those on the other side. Now is the time.

[Shopaholic]

19. Hell No.

We stand together--Black and White and Hispanic,and any other minority, Gay and Straight, Old and Young, Christian, Jew, Atheist, Wiccan, Agnostic. We are America.