"Issues of character and integrity"

[bain_sidhe]

This is the vague "smear" Gen Shelton used to "explain" why Clark was relieved of his command at NATO early. Well, let's look at that. The facts make it clear that the "issue" was that Clark fought against his superiors (Shelton & Cohen) to do what he thought was the right thing - to end the slaughter of the Albanians by Serbs under Milosovec. He won that fight, and it cost him his career. I'll take that kind of "character and integrity" any day.

And it also makes me wonder, which - if any - of his opponents "done the right thing" knowing it could cost them their careers? Did Gephardt, Kerry and Edwards vote for both IWR and the Patriot Act because they thought it was the right thing? Or because they thought that voting against them would hurt their chances of re-election.

I know Kucinich voted against the IWR... was there any indication that people might not vote to re-elect him because of that? (I honestly don't know - what sort of district does he represent? Liberal? Conservative? what?) It may be that Dean's signing of the Civil Union bill was such an act, because it clearly put his re-election in jeopardy (didn't he only win with 50.+% in the next election?), but I don't know enough about the circumstances - somebody said something along the lines that the Court ordered him to do it... does anybody know if that's true?

Anyway, my main point is that it certainly DOES take "character and integrity" to risk a career you love to do the right thing... and it's no smear to say so. The fact that Shelton intended it to be a smear doesn't make it one. Uh. IMHO.

[dsc]

1. I will adress this for two of the candidates

First Kucinich. While mayor of Cleveland Kucinich was told to sell the public power plant or the debt of Cleveland would be put in default. He refused to sell and a recall was initiated days later. He won the recall but lost the reelection. He put his career on the line.

Now Dean. The constitution could have been changed. It should be noted that his state was the third with this kind of decision and is the only one with a civil unions statute to result. Dean then campaigned on having done so to the point of having to wear a bullet proof vest. He also he needed that 50% to win or the election would have gone to the Vermont House which is Republican. He risked his career.

[bain_sidhe]

2. Good to know

I've got to run away from the keyboard right now, I just wanted to thank you for responding.

Well, and kick this before I leave, on the off chance it might not sink like the proverbial lead balloon.

[sandnsea]

3. Clark fought for a ground invasion

Along the lines of what Colin Powell was advocating, that's what he fought for and that's what caused the problems. The Clinton Administration fought for a strategic strike to put only as much pressure on Milosevic as was necessary. I respect Clark for fighting for what he thought was right, I respect him for skillfully implementing the plan that the Clinton Administration insisted on, I disagree on what he was fighting for.

And I'm incredibly disappointed to see the old IWR and Patriot Act shit drug out by Clark people. I really thought you guys had more integrity than that.

[bain_sidhe]

5. Wait a minute...

And I'm incredibly disappointed to see the old IWR and Patriot Act shit drug out by Clark people. I really thought you guys had more integrity than that.

It could be argued, I think, that voting FOR the IWR, in Kerry's case at least, was the "principled" act, depending on whether his constituents were for or against it. I know a LOT of liberals were against it, and if he was at that time contemplating a Presidential run, he had to have KNOWN it would hurt him. My question is not about whether OTHERS thought those votes were right or wrong, but whether HE did, and I'll thank you not to question MY integrity for bringing the issue up.

The question STILL REMAINS - and not just on those votes, if those are your sticking points - take NCLB, Homeland Security, the tax cuts - ANY of those bills that the Republicans essentially "dared" Democrats to vote against with the threat of using it against them in their next election. Look at Max Cleland. He thought the Homeland Security bill was WRONG, and refused to vote to end the fillibuster. It was the RIGHT THING TO DO and it cost him his Senate seat.

[flaminbats]

4. these are the issues Dukakis ran on and lost...

We judge integrity by actions not promises. And character is judged by the values reflected in that candidate's political agenda...not from speeches about character.

Character and integrity do not need explanation, they are self-evident..either you have it or you don't!