Gullible electorate or stolen election

[andym]

or both?

My personal prejudice is that Barnum was right (a sucker is born every minute) and that the Kerry was smeared enough by * and his minions to convince enough of the masses to vote *. The 51% unfavorable rating for Kerry in the CNN exit polls explains alot to me.

But, it is certainly possible that any campaign run by Rove would use every trick at their disposal to win. I think Kerry did the right thing to concede, because his lawyers would have a difficult if not impossible time trying to prove that the election was Diebolded.

BUT, there is another path that is still open. The election in Ohio will not be certified for at least 11 days until the provisional votes are counted. I suggest that someone like Moveon or Soros offer a large sum (greater than 5 million) for any specific information on BBV that was widespread enough to bring the election into question. The reasoning here is that people who engage in such tactics are corrupt. It would take dozens, if not more of these people, and that some of the corrupt ones would likely be tempted by the money.

As soon as such info came to light, I believe that Kerry would fight.
He needs a leg to stand on. Perhaps it can be had.

[LTRS]

1. Gullibel electorate, stolen by lies

not with BBV. The polls called it perfectly once you factored in the 50/50 split on the undecideds. We needed 60-65% of the undecideds to win and it just didn't happen.

[GreenArrow]

2. both

steal 'em where necessary, manipulate 'em everywhere else.

One of the most disappointing aspects of this election was that I a) expected Bush and Co. to cheat and b) expected that that would be offset by a great outpouring of electoral participation and anger. The sheep, instead, bleated loudly.

[marano]

3. Democracy is Dead

I wanted to post this as an original thread but the site won't let me. If anyone appreciates what I have to say would you please post this for me as an original thread.

Che Guivera said in his writing, Guerrilla Warfare, that when free elections cease to be the way leaders are chosen that hostilities can be presumed to have already started. Anyone on this board who gives any credence to this election having been anything but a sham is either naive or a fool. Democracy died at the 2000 election. Being good people who believe in this country we attempted with this, the 2004 election to use what we have always known as the American system to change things. We said to ourselves that the 2000 election while wrong was something we would not let happen again. We truly meant what we said. What we did not realize is that since the 2000 election things are no longer in our control. Michael Moore and others believed enough in our system of government to believe that we could get out the vote, motivate people to change the country through the democratic process and that we could in that way take the country back from those who stole it from us in 2000.

They were not aware as were most of us were not, that Democracy in this country died in 2000. This election, the 2004 election should confirm this for us all. It pains me to say this but I feel that it is true. I think that the power has shifted from the people, who make this a democracy to those who now own the country. I know that many of our fellow Americans voted for these people in this election, because of ignorance and the propaganda that they are fed on a daily basis by these people who now control this country. Their beliefs, their values, were used against them and they assisted these people with their agenda and a little assistance added to a lot of money...which is power in our capitalist system is all that they need to give an air of legitimacy to this pretense of democracy.

What is next? I do not know. I can almost picture and hear things like...."Term limits are outdated and UnAmerican"...."If the people want me to be President forever that is their right." I truly believe that we will never again see a REAL election again in this country until something happens to remove the people who now own and are in control of OUR country. Government of the people, by the people and for the people is over with for now... and will be until the next chapter in American history comes. When will it come, how will it come, only the people can determine that. I hope that I live long enough to see the nation become something other than what it is today, November 3rd, 2004. I have never been less proud to be an American than I am on this day.

[GreenArrow]

5. posted it for you.

.

[marano]

7. Thank you.

[lark]

16. OMG - thank you!

I'm so glad I'm not the only person who feels like this is not America any more. America died on the day in 2002 when the Supreme Court cast their illegal selection of the hand puppet. I gave Democracy my all this election. I donated money over and over and over again. I made phone calls, wrote letters, signed petitions and talked to everyone I could. I do believe there are lots of sheep who just listen to mainstream media and who don't know their asses from their leaders and think one is the other. However, I do not believe that they chose this jerk. So. FL. HATES Bush and had massive lines for early voting - Bush did not take FL. The touchscreen machines were the only mode of voting in So. FL. so no trail to show how they rigged the vote there. Redneck N. FL. got all optical scan machines - there's a trail. I bet if you look everywhere the results are suspicious, you might see the same pattern.

The problem is - I feel totally helpless now to change this banana republic back to a Democracy. The Dictator has all the tools to keep control and is not about to give them up. We truly did our best, but the results were rigged 4 years in advance. My God, what is he going to do now that he doesn't face re-election? It makes me shudder and I don't know how I can sleep tonight. If my dad didn't have cancer - I'd be moving out of America pronto. I hate this place right now. I will not get over it and he will never be "my" president. He's only the chief Ahole.

lark

[mzmolly]

23. The polls showed a slight edge for Bush when averaged out.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry_hth.html

The end result pretty much reflected this. It's not as though Bush was polling at 30% consistantly folks.

We lost because Rove GOTV.

Kerry got 200k more votes in Florida than did Al Gore in 2000. Bush got about 400k more votes in Fl than he did in 2000. They motivated their base, and we lost.

I'm open to other possibilities, but I don't see a clear cut case of fraud just yet.

RCP average state polls pretty much show what occured as well:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry_sbys.html

[Native_Iowan]

4. Gullible swing vote, but determined Fundies..

...bottom line is that we lost the get-out-the-vote, much to my surprise. The electorate has changed little (notice that the only 2 states Dubya picked up - Iowa and NM - were won narrowly by almost the same margins he lost them last time; NH was also narrowly reversed in our favor). Equation: no change. Not sure who really won the undecideds - seems like almost all voted like they did in 2000.

[TSIAS]

6. Gullible electorate

More than any one factor, Bush has many Americans fooled into thinking that he is more moral and righteous than Democrats.

[andym]

8. I agree

There are too many sold on the fact that * must be honest, because he's a good born-again Christian and the President. They would never buy Kerry's statements that * is not truthful and just put it down to a problem with Kerry's honesty. They would never check out how easily verifiable the charges were.

[Flammable Materials]

9. Um, both. Not to mention ...

... a Democratic candidate who was willing to roll over at the slightest hint of controversy.

Quite simply, we were fucked eight ways from Sunday.

[shance]

10. Stop blaming the Victim. Dems should be proud. Elections 2000,2004 STOLEN

We will either face the music and deal with the issues like the Trojan horse voting machines, or we will fall like Rome.

We have a choice. Its actually very simple.

[Flammable Materials]

11. When the vote is stolen, the candidate should fight for justice.

We got no such thing.

And they wonder why some of us are upset! Pfeh!

[LittleClarkie]

15. We get the government we deserve

They wanted it, they can have it.

It will be painful to watch, but soon they will unwrap their "present."

And we will be there to pick up the pieces 4 years from now if we're not irradiated by then.

Kerry '08 -- "He was right all along."

[blondeatlast]

12. Both, but ultimately the dimwit voters. nt

[CitySky]

13. I like the idea of using cash to lure out our whistleblower --

someone coming in with good hard proof to explain the miraculous * resurrection in Florida, for example.

But the prospect of jail time might prove a disincentive...

[andym]

14. Offer of immunity too

Whoever would supply the money (moveon?) should state that they would try to arrange some kind of immunity. That might be difficult though, depending on who prosecutes such cases.

[wrate]

26. You would need to add some sort of witness protection program to this

person. The Bush mafia would get him/her/them in a second for ratting.

[andym]

28. Witness protection would be fine

Any corrupt individual willing to help subvert the election for money, would likely have no problems living in say Hawaii at taxpayer expense.

[Deja Q]

17. Both, but only nobody (including Kerry) is making a legitimate call on it.

I'm glad Kerry lost, but he capitulated far too quickly and the Diebold Banking Company voting systems are almost TOO obvious in terms of being potentially fraudulent.

Say 'toodles' to fair elections, especially when more people use the same systems.

And I sure as hell won't vote if that happens in MN.

[mzmolly]

18. Gullible electorate - untill I find out otherwise.

:shrug:

[Raiden]

19. It doesn't matter now

Democracy is dead (11/3/04 - The Day Democracy Died)


Checks and Balances are a thing of the past
Civil Rights... What's that?
Old Testament = New Constitution
Supreme Court (9 Scalias)
Marriage amendment
Abortion outlawed
Social Security privatized
Liberal politicians assassinated by 'terrorists'
PATRIOT Act made permanent
Corporate rule
Fascism defeats 'democracy'
"Thou shalt not be homosexual" added to the 10 Commandments
Death camps made for gays, liberals, and other 'enemy combatants'
War with Iran, Syria, N. Korea, and Canada
Draft re-instated
Freedom is Slavery
War is Peace
Ignorance is Stength


I'm thinking of building a nuclear shelter in my backyard and not coming out for the next four years... Compassion and logic lost out to greed and ignorance...

[Stinky The Clown]

20. More the electorate than the thievery

Once again, dumb voters duped by "Direct Mail Sales" Rove made it close enough to steal.

Ohio was far more a paper ballot than an e-ballot. We just plain got out voted. Sure, we can talk about suppression ... whatever.

There were more of them at the polls than there were of us.

[omnithrope]

21. Gullible electorate

nt

[morcatknits]

25. The Electorate Has Officially Dumbed Down

Most of the far right wing are the "just as good as" folks. They are anti-intellectual, anti-education, anti-science, and anti-birth control. Add 'em up, and that equals a dumbed down electorate that will bite for the most shallow people and slogans. If they spend all their time obsessing about abortion, they don't have to deal with the daily moral issues of unjust war, racism, healthcare, etc. I know from the far right agenda in Texas that is exactly where the Republicans want us, pretty much like Mexico. It is ok to slaughter all the living children you like, etc.

It will take another generation to completely turn it around, and traditionally, Americans don't like long-term goals. We have to do it for this country to survive, though. Smart, well educated people have to reproduce themselves, if not biologically, then by spreading their influence.
morcatknits

[nedbal]

22. Barnum was right (a sucker is born every minute)

[kohodog]

24. STOLEN ELECTION, IMHO

The exit polls in Fla and Ohio weren't close to the results. Karen Hughes (according to AP before it was pulled) told Bush that he was going to lose Florida and reported that Bush took the news "stoically." This seems like a replay.

[hannah]

27. I agree Stolen

But very low key. Unlike the 2000 election which was blatant! Kerry was polling ahead in Fl for the last week of election. Bush never could top 47%. Lo and behold, Who ended up with 47%? Kerry. Republicans suck no matter how you present it. Someone needs to look into the black box voting.

[andym]

29. There are rumors that Soros might offer just such a reward

Any confirmation.