Just came back from a party meeting where guy just returned from Iraq...

[Nicholas_J]

spoke.

He is going to be sent back soon.

What we found out is that these guys are coming back, a lot of them with what was
called "shell shock" in prior wars. They are not being treated at all, unless they tell their superior officers they are having problems. Then it takes 6-8 months to do intake, and then another two to see a doctor, Most dont get counseling.

What happens when they are sent back to Iraq is that if they had some special skill or service they performed, like driving a tank or something, they are taken off that specialized duty and put into the infantry, which is one of the places they have the greatest chance of being killed in.

Solves the problem of treating them, if they never come back. Most get no more than one hour of psychological counseling, and the decision is just to take them off of their specialized duty and put them into the infantry and have them digging latrines and suchh when they are not out on patrols and such.

[XanaDUer]

1. I was there , too.

Very moving.

[dave502d]

2. They fight for this country.

The people that run it just don't care about them.

[underpants]

3. They are dumping them into the Infantry?

Oh Christ! "Tank driving" isn't exactly a skill nor is Bradley gunning (though it is a more advanced lifeform) trust me matcom and I did one of each.

That is terrible. Hell I was a Scout and WE looked down on the "grunts" (Tankers looked down on us-from their heated tracks) and we were way down the feeding chain. But we respected them.

That is ........wow I don't know what that is. You would expect that after one tour they had paid their dues and would get some of slack. This tells me that things are way worse that even we (DU) could imagine.

[Nicholas_J]

11. Yup

we didnt find out details about what he actually did, but i gather it was more sophisticated than
tank driving, was just using that as an example. Anyone who reports symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder (you know coming home on leave,sleeping with a gun when visiting mom and almost blowing her head off in the middle of the night) , doesnt get much treatment...this guy came home 14 months ago, took 8 months to even get to sign up for VA treatment, two more months to see a regular doctor, hasnt seen a counsellor yet, and just found out his unit is going back. He and all of the other guys in his unit who reported PTSD symptoms have been reassigned to infantry, and he said that is the common way of handling it. Most people are being sent back before they even get a chance to see a specialist at VA.

He also said not to pay attention to polls that say that 70 percent of the military support Bush, as in those polls they rarely if ever poll non-officers, or guys called up from the National Guard, just officers and lifers.

This kid was ROTC in high school, and ended up being callled up for Iraq the day after he graduated from high school (dont know the details). Was sent to Kuwait, they did a bunch of weird junk for a month or two and then one day someone comes in and said, O.K. get ready we are leaving, and they are all thinking, "Hey we are going home" and then the asked "where are we going, and they were told the war just started. He said it was a mess, everybody running around like chickens with their heads cut off strapping gear on and onto their transports and so on.

He said irt seemed like there were no real plans, none of the stuff that was supposed to be done (like blasting holes in the big earthwork berms that the Kuwaitis built at their border with Iraq) and they had no idea of what was on the other side. They were told to expect Iraqi tanks and helicopters, but the Iraqis had no equipment as 90 percent of their helicopters had been destroyed in the Gulf War, along with 50 percent of their tanks and what wass left wasnt even used in the battle as the Iraqi's were unable to get spare parts between 1991 and the beginning of the. The Iraqi units they saw when they got across the earthworks were all in unarmored transports and they didnt fire on the coalition forces, so they just ignored the Iraqi's the Iraqi's ignored them and they just went on to attack the cites as they went along with little resistance.

As they got closer to Baghdad they were told to expect chemical attacks, but there was no evidence that the Iraqi's had any equipment sophisticated enough to fire chemical weapons.

But yeah, if they figure someone's head isnt screwed on straight enough to do what they were doing, they are reassigning them to the infantry.

[underpants]

24. Sounds familiar

at my wife's last job she saw and IT guy in the smoking area (a whole subculture of every workplace)- she and some other people said "Hey where have you been we haven't seen you in a while"

"I was in Iraq" :wow:

This guy was a Va. Guardsman. He went to what he thought was his regular weekend training and everyone was told to get in a room-they were told they were shipping out to Iraq on Sunday. No going home whatever they had with them is what they had.

When she told me this two things went through my head
-So I'm packed for what I THOUGHT was going to be a two day trip (underwear/unifroms/toiletries/etc.) and now I am going literally half way around the world?
-what about finances and your job (Hi boss guess what I won't be in today....or tomorrow...) and your wife/kids/girlfriend suddenly they are on their own too and what about pets?

this guy was over there for 30 or 45 days and then they came back. Thanks now get off the bus.

The Iraqi military being in that state was one of the no brainer things that made this whole war so mindlessly unneccesary. Scott Ritter pointed this out in Will Pitt's book but anyone who ever was in the army or understands the nature of things already knew.

[peacetalksforall]

4. It's more and more obvious - we are all expendable in a way - unless

we're working for peanuts, submissive, silent, obedient, gullible. Working implies health. Woe to any who cannot be willing serfs and victims.

[leftofthedial]

5. cannon fodder units

in bushgang parlance

[vetwife]

7. They are coming back with PTSD and I reported info I had about

this back in January regarding no treatment and that one soldier has PTSD so bad that he is suing the DOD to get out. Documented but here is the trick When bush declared Mission accomplished that meant more than people knew. He declared major combat and hostilities over.
That means they cannot get a service connection disability since they are peacekeepers now and look how much the administration is referring to Iraqi as frontliners and US is backup so therefore, these guys will be seen for 2 years once they get back and then cut off.

Two year treatment..Thats it ! Per Bush and the 108th Repug congress. UNLESS they can prove service connection and that will be hard considering the wait time and the 2 year cut off plus major hostilities ended when Mission Accomplished was declared about major hostilities being over. , plus thre is one PTSD clinic (experimentalin NJ) that is supposed to answer all of these problems and some are created by the drug Lariam (anti malaria.)There is also a 250.00 enrollment fee to the VA. Plus paying for meds if not 50 percent service connected disabled.

Categorization of Vets into category 7 or 8 priority which depends on income but the two year cut off remains without a service connection. I got this information from VA Headquarters from a Guy that works there and I know he is a dem and sends me info. I met him when I went to Washington to raise cain about Agent orange and the VA hospitals back in 2000. I am sorry. They also have a deal as not to tell the vets (The VA) not to tell them their entitlements under Title 38.
This is really supporting the troops huh?

It took the Vietnam vets years and years and years to get compensation and recognized for what now is PTSD and used to be called Shell Shock. YEARS! John Kerry helped in this legislation of better treatment for vets. These soldiers just have no clue what they are facing when they come home and neither do the families.

[leftofthedial]

8. how can they mislead the military so badly

treat them so badly, undersupply them, put them needlessly in harm's way, hamstring them with a half-baked plan that is focused entirely on oil and rebuilding profits

and STILL have the support of anyone in uniform.

And we think the roughly half of civilians who support him are stupid . . .

[Hello_Kitty]

10. As mystifying as support by troops for * may seem

You have to realize that they are in a highly controlled environment where the propaganda is relentless. Most senior officers are politically conservative and they wield an incredible amount of power over those under them. Add to that the fact that we are in a war and the President is the Commander in Chief. To be critical of him is seen as unacceptable.

[leftofthedial]

13. I'm an Air Force brat myself

My old man was a career officer. He and his colleagues were by and large Republican and very hawkish, but surprisingly fairly moderate on social issues.

but they weren't stupid or self-destructive.

I understand the pressures and the mindset, but at this point, you'd have to be stupid not to see through it.

[Nicholas_J]

16. He said stuff about that as well

That regarding the election, they only know what they are being told, and Bush is being pushed
by officers and such, but by and large everyon he knows in his unit is for the democrats.
Though they cant even duscuss that when officers are around.

THey get the Bush and Swift Boaters take on Kerry's military service, but when the non-officers and guardsman come back after being back in the states for a while, the Kerry position is spread "unofficially" by the people who return and there is a sense among people like him that if Kerry is elected, they will get home a lot quicker. Thats what is behind all of Bush's recent talk about shortening tours of durt and such. With the talk about the campign in the states coming back to Iraq with people who have been in the states, the Bush people must want to limit information that they dont want to get around from getting around

[Nicholas_J]

12. Even worse...

Because there were a lot of people with local media connections at this meeting, they were all suggesting that they could get this guy to tell his story on the local news, but he said that no one who is still actually in the military would dare do that because it was the quickest way to be
given some kind of duty that would leave you susceptible to be either attacked by insurgents or
worse. He said he was speaking at democratic party meeting and other peace meeting because it would be less likely for him to be noticed doing it, and he was relying on the people he was telling his story to to make a big enough fuss to help get this thing over with quickly and prevent as many dead and wouded as possible.

So I am telling his story for him here, as he asked. Nice kid, 21 year old and has been in Iraq once, in the first wave to go in, and he is going back in a few weeks.

I asked what effect the Brits pulling out would have on things as the opposition to Blair and Hoon are talking about getting all Britis troops out in ten weeks.

He said that if the Brits pulled out it would have serious effects on the U.S. position there as the Brits were some of the best people he had ever seen over there.

He also said that at first morale was good, as they all believed that all they would do was mop up and be sent home as soon as the fighting was over, but the insurgency was completely unexpected, and they were totally unprepared to deal with it.

[AP]

14. It's amazing to me that the brits are getting more credit.

They're not over there slaughtering people, they're taking great care of their own troops, they've kept Basra very peaceful.

What they have doen seems to be the ideal. And despite what people say, it's not like Bush is getting mileage out of the Brits being there. In fact, they could be used as huge indictment of Bush. Why do we suck and the British make it look easy? If the British were the only people there, maybe they'd have had REAL democratic elections by now and everyone would be gone. Maybe if we left the whole thing to Europe, there wouldn't have had to been an invasion.

See how easy that is?

[leftofthedial]

15. thank you for passing along his story

this occupation is unjust, the invasion was illegal

I want our troops out of danger as soon as possible

the insurgency is totally understandable. If we'd been conquered by someone, I'd be fighting back too.

[XanaDUer]

9. Over eight months to get into the VA for ANY type of treatment

the audience was horrified.

[flpoljunkie]

25. Declaring "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" means NO SERVICE CONNECTED DISABILITY?!!

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS, BEYOND BELIEF! Our troops are no more than cannon fodder to this corrupt, inept administration. They are cynically used for occupation and control of countries with vast oil reserves! We have also built permanent bases in the "Stans" countries in the Caspian Sea area to guard the oil pipeline in Afghanistan.

And yet our troops do their duty and loyally serve these bastards who use them and discard them.

John Kerry sent our troops, as well as the Iraqi people and the world, a message in the second debate, when he said the 14 bases Bush has built in Iraq will not be permanent.

Help is on the way. John Kerry will send our troops to war only as a last resort--something George W. Bush repeatedly lied about up in the run up to the Iraq war--running around saying {"War is my resort." We now know that was Bush's biggest lie--and Bush's biggest FLIP-FLOP!

[BamaGirl]

28. My husband was told in July when he got home that he has full

campaign benefits. So really he doesn't? That doesn't surprise me at all, of course, but they are telling them when they come home that they have full benefits. My Dad, a VV, can't even get into the VA hospital because of this stupid new tier system of theirs. I'm so pissed at the VA/repugs about all this crap.

[bigtree]

6. Resources For Returning Soldiers

http://www.returningsoldiers.us

[Warren DeMontague]

17. Who says Republicans don't believe in recycling.

Whew.

Anyway, not to sound flip; that's awful. ABC just did a piece on returning vets getting screwed over, as well.

I guess "support our troops" only counts when it's used as a cheap political wedge line.. if actual cash is involved, sorry, bub.

One would think this shoddy, shitty, across-the-board treatment would be eating into what we are continually told is the monolithic support of the military & their families for Bushco. One would think.

[driver8]

18. Bush doesn't care

Bush does not care about the troops -- its all chin music from him.

All I heard at the beginning of the war was, "If you don't support Bush, you don't support the troops." I got so sick of hearing that ignorant comment.

If Bush wants to support these troops, then get them the hell out of Iraq. I am so sick of these friggin' chicken hawks...Dubya strutting around on the deck of an aircraft carrier...pompous ass.

[Nicholas_J]

21. Just as they dont care about any citizen

We are all expendable. The lack of concern about Flu shots is just an indication about how well they are probably ready for the terrorist use of anthrax or smallpox. THey are probably as ill prepared for that as they are for the flu, or were for the Iraqi insurgency.

Another interesting comment made about the 97 billion for the troops and bullet proof vest and armor for transport. Not much more has been done than what they had when they went over and that money was just another way to spend more money to keep the war going status quo because they were running out of money to keep the war going. They didnt expect to get caught with their pants down when those guys refused orders. There are a lot more convoys in just as bad shape and nothing being said about how far along they are with providing the troops with body armor and steel plating for vehicles should be beleived. THey are a lot further behind in that then they are telling.

Congressional democrats should call for a CONGRESSIONAL investigation of what has been done with the 87 billion regarding providing the troops whith what that money was for and not leave it for the military to do their own investigation and cover up.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. Welcome to DU, Driver8!

:hi:

Oh--- and nice Nick.

[newyawker99]

30. Hi driver8!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[JSJ]

19. whatever shape 'the troops' are in, you can be sure...

...they're doing much better than the overwhelmingly greater number of their victims.

[KharmaTrain]

20. When They Aren't Treated: Swift Boat Liars

These people are still fighting the Vietnam war...trying to gain some self respect from the same assholes that called them losers and baby-killers (it sure wasn't us protestors...we were glad they were home!)

[nomatrix]

23. Over 3 million were in Vietnam

and this handful of sour grapes are whining through the media. Maybe they didn't take warrior deprogramming 101, dam they are full of hate.
Suffering from a "Napoleon complex" or "angry little man agression."
Getting all this negative attention.

Pitiful. Where is the John o'Neill crew? How come they aren't standing with him and his "visions" of Kerry? They thought he was looney then. Why don't the freepers notice that?

What a pathetic loser he is. If he had served beside Kerry, he could have a legitimate gripe. All this hype for the loser selected, who is hanging our military out to dry without equipment & wearing them out.
He will protect us better how? Read another book? Who will be ready for the next attack? To dash out for his intelligence?

Now those idiots, like Mayor Koch, are saying there hasn't been another attack since 9/11. What was the anthrax mailings? Is that what we might hear about tommorow? We never bothered about that one.

another line...

Take the war to them on their soil....unless it's Saudi and other protected friends.

So all you fools who listen to the smearboaters...
Karma will pay them all a visit one day. It always does. You won't want to be standing too close.

[deutsey]

26. Visit and support www.optruth.org

A site by and about our troops in Iraq.

[vetwife]

27. This is just part of it ! And they don't know !

Vital Concerns to Veterans:

1) A very important issue facing veterans are Congressional bills S-50 and S-19. S-50, "Veterans Health Care Funding Guarantee Act of 2003" is a re-introduction of HR-5250 from the 107th Congress. S-19, "Veterans and Military Personnel Fairness Act of 2003" includes the provisions of S-50 plus additional proposed legislation. S-19 needs to be introduced into the House of Representatives for this Congress. In the 107th Congress, Rep. Christopher Smith of NJ introduced it in the 107th Congress. It was co-sponsored by Lane Evans. Ultimately it was co-sponsored by 128 Representatives, including Rep. Gutierrez. Unfortunately, it never got out of Committee.

We hope this legislation will be seriously considered and passed this year. It will resolve a number of the problems that follow.

2) Secretary Principi has a) created a new category for veterans, Category 8, and then suspended enrollment of all veterans in this category. Category 7 and 8 veterans are among the fastest growing sectors of VA clients. With the on-going attenuation of healthcare coverage among the population in general (47 million people without coverage), this section is going to continue to grow. Layoffs and benefits cuts will force the veteran-section of this population toward the VA. It is imperative that the VA accept all veterans.

3) There has also been an announcement that active duty personnel will only be eligible for VA care (barring service-connected disabilities, etc.) for 2 years after their release from service. The VA was created to serve all veterans. It is imperative that the VA cover veterans, regardless of the terms or conditions of their service.

4) Of paramount importance to all veterans is the increase in co-payments for medications, inpatient and outpatient hospital visits, and, in some cases, even for nursing home care. These increases in co-payments hit the most disenfranchised sections of veterans the hardest. Veterans from World War II , Korea, Vietnam and the Gulf War (as well as other interventions) were promised free health care. Not only is this promise being abrogated, but veterans benefits are being continually whittled away through program limitations and cost increases. This process must be reversed and health care provided free for all veterans, particularly those in real economic and medical need.

5) There are major issues of communications between veterans and the VA Administration. From the point of view of veterans, the VA administrators seem to get quite offended and hostile if asked questions that challenge them or their point of view. Of particular note in this regard are questions on the pay system and methods of reward. As an example, there are persistent rumors floating around that VA administrators have received large sums of money for cutting veterans' benefits and programs. As an example -- not to pick out one person, but to say what the rumors are -- it is rumored that the previous Director of Hines VA (Max Lewis) received a large bonus (some say $30,000, but others $300,000) for returning funds unused (the rumored amounts are $3 million, $1 million and $300,000) to Washington. These rumors are obviously detrimental to the morale of veterans at the hospital, yet we cannot get answers. There may not be a problem with incentive programs, but these are public employees and veterans want to know that VA administration doesn't make money by screwing veterans (or that they do; at least we'd have the truth then). Until we get answers, we naturally assume the worst, especially when the VISN-12 administration refuses to address the rumors. We need to know the truth.

6) Another VA communications problem relates to VA administration and management procedures. The veteran view is that veterans benefits and programs are continually being cut back, piece by piece. A large part of this is not VA-wide policy, but local management. At Hines, as at Westside and Lakeside, we have seen closures. Lakeside was closed to inpatients, despite the protest of veterans, employees, and Northwestern Medical School and Hospital. Westside has had programs curtailed. Food for Westside is now prepared at Hines. The food veterans receive is terrible and this whole process seems preposterous to everyone except the VA administration. At Hines, we are aware of numerous down-sizings, including:

a) the fire department closure. Broadview FD now responds and veterans and employees are afraid their response will be (and is) inadequate. They are also dubious over the reasons for this change.

b) The laundry service have been out-sourced.

c) At least 90 patient beds have been cut.

d) The $100 million Homeless Program was mandated by Congress for New York, Los Angles and Chicago. To date, there is no program at Hines VA and even those designated to run the program don't seem to know where the funds are. It was supposed to be a 90 bed program.

e) The Therapeutic Pool was closed in December 2001.

f) Mental Health Rehabilitation exercise has been downsized.

g) The Mental Health Intensive Case Management Program (MHICM) was supposed to provide staff to follow community-based mentally ill patients to keep them in the community and out of the hospital to the degree possible. It was told recently that there is no staff or funding.

These program have been cut and under funded without adequate communication between the VA administration and veterans and employees so people know what is going on, what is going to happen and why. Thus, veterans (and employees) feel victimized and used by the VA administration. We need better communication and information.

7) There is major concern about VA employee understaffing, overwork and the resultant poor moral. This leads veterans to complain about the staff. The reality is that employees are so harried and harassed that their morale is extremely low. Activation of more than 500 VA employees to the Iraq theater has the potential to make this substantially worse. We are very concerned about this, particularly at a time when the VA may be required to care for war casualties
.....................................................................


The following was taken straight from the Dept of Veterans Affairs per Princippi..The key in all of this look at where it says major hostilities.
..................................................................
Veterans who serve on active duty in a theater of combat operations during a period of war after November 11, 1998 or in combat against a hostile force during a period of hostilities are eligible for hospital care, medical services, and nursing home care for a period of two years from their date of discharge.

We created this page to provide shortcuts to valuable information and services of interest to Returning Service Members

[BamaGirl]

29. I have a friend whose husband has been to

Afghanistan once and is in Iraq for the second time. Something has to be done about the size of the Army. These guys shouldn't be expected to go back over and over again. My husband is in the Guard. He got home in July from a two year deployment. The Pentagon says that a Guard or Reserve unit cannot be activated for more than two years in a five year period. Unfortunately, we are hearing the unit will be deployed again in about 18 months. They don't care much about their own rules, especially with a laregly uninformed public that is not complaining about how soldiers are used/deployed.