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I guess eyewitnesses really are unreliable -- WTC second attack

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:14 AM
Original message
I guess eyewitnesses really are unreliable -- WTC second attack
I was going to post some eyewitness testimony from a terrific site that I don't think has been mentioned in this forum -- the Marriot Hotel Survivors site -- to show that there were many people who saw the second plane hit the towers.

http://www.sept11marriottsurvivors.org/survivors_stories.php

Funny thing is, the first witness statement I opened, by James Caleca, says he did not see a plane, and if I am going to be fair, I guess I have to post information that actually goes against my own conviction, as someone who was in lower Manhattan on 9/11, that planes hit the towers:

http://www.sept11marriottsurvivors.org/survivors_stories.php?storyfile=JamesCaleca

I was attending a seminar on the 3rd floor of the Marriott at the time. When the first plane struck the North Tower it shook violently and felt like an earthquake accompanied by a loud deep boom. I leaned back in my chair and could see a huge ball of flame and debris falling. I told everyone that we needed to get out immediately and we left the room and took the stairway down to the lobby. After exiting through the Marriott lounge doors onto Liberty St. I went across from the WTC at an angle that allowed me a view of both towers. I was absolutely stunned and horrified by the sight of the tower on fire and instinctively began thinking that I had to get out of Manhattan before things got worse. My first inclination was that I believed a bomb had exploded and as I tried to call my wife and my office I overheard a passerby say that a plane had hit the building. This gave me a tiny bit of relief thinking that maybe it was, in fact, an accident. This minor relief was immediately replaced with additional horror from the sight of bodies falling from the WTC.

As I stood in shock at the unbelievable sight before me I witnessed the attack on the second tower. My horror turned into an indescribable terror at the instant realization that this was a deliberate act. From my perspective at street level the second plane looked like a cruise missile to me and I thought that the United States was under attack. It was traveling so fast and slammed into the building with such force that I did not see the wings of the jetliner. I immediately turned and ran towards Battery Park. While repeatedly trying to reach my wife and my office I tried to think of how I could get out of Manhattan. I knew that if I could reach New Jersey, that I could rent a car and drive home. My only focus was getting to my family and I didn't yet know that it was two planes that had caused this carnage.

When I reached Battery Park I heard someone say that it was a plane that hit the second tower and I challenged them that it was a missile. They said that they had seen the plane themselves. I was sick to think that this was a terrorist act and within minutes heard on a radio that the Pentagon had been hit as well. My despair and fear grew. I didn't know anyone in New York and kept thinking that the situation was only going to get worse. I asked someone how to get out of the city and was told that all bridges and were closed and that the ferry boats were not running. I did learn that the ferry boats departed from right near there and made my way towards that area.

Within 10-15 minutes a ferry boat arrived and I was fortunate enough to make it on. As I was boarding I heard a loud rumbling noise and realized that it was getting very smoky. As the boat began to pull away from the dock it was completely engulfed in smoke and dust from, what I later realized, was the collapse of the first tower. While it was very difficult to breath, it was nothing compared to what everyone that did not make that first ferry boat had to endure. Nor was it as uncomfortable as it must have been for anyone in closer proximity to the disaster

<end quote>

I post this at the risk of feeding the "no plane" theories. In fact the majority of the stories by people who witnessed the second hit confirm that there was a plane that hit the south tower. But my point really is that in the chaos and terror of the moment people perceived completely different things.

For example, Denise Campbell says she saw the plane:

http://www.sept11marriottsurvivors.org/survivors_stories.php?storyfile=DeniseCampbell

The alarm I woke to was much different than that to which I am routinely roused out of bed each morning. I jolted out of bed at the moment the first plane hit tower one and immediately thought I had brought the trend of Richter breaking earthquakes with me from LA. I quickly grabbed my flip-flops out of my suitcase and picked up my purse. My heart was pounding but I was annoyed, not fearful at this time. I started out the door but knew I should call my parents so I stepped into the bathroom and just pulled the cell phone out of the charger and ran. Shoes and purse in hand I got to the stairwell and only noticed a few people following me down. The alarms had just started going off so people were slowly coming out of rooms and down the hall. We started down the stairs with a few people but by the time we got to the ground level there were probably 30 people on their way out together. The Marriott staff were lined up and were telling us in a firm tone to hurry outside due to an accident.

It wasn't until I stepped outside the building (we exited at tower two) that I realized there was glass everywhere. I put my shoes on and looked ahead and noticed people on the other side of the street staring above and behind me. Then, I turned to the right and saw the first building on fire. The uniformed men signaled for our group to run across the street. As we started running and my fear starting setting in the man in uniform screamed "don't look up, run" and then ran himself. A huge noise came--we ran across the street. That was when I heard and saw the second plane hit the building directly above where I was standing. There was concrete evidence that my fear was justified. I started shaking terribly. I can't explain the explosion--other than comparing it to a human fireball. People screaming, the sound of enormous breakage, the smell of smoke. Absolutely terrifying.

Everyone was stunned. It seemed like minutes however I'm sure it was just seconds that the hundreds of people in the street were frozen, all staring up at two burning buildings. This is when we, a frightened group of strangers, all witnessed the people jumping out of buildings afire and falling to their death. A uniform sigh of terror came from the crowds as people jumped alone, in groups--such an unimaginable sight to see. Some speculate that these people were too hot to withstand the fire on the upper floors of the towers. Whatever the case, it was awful to witness. Debris from the plane and building started hurling in all directions.

I ran towards the water. My instinct led me to do so.

As I ran a man beside me lost his right arm to a flying piece of building or plane. He screamed and fell behind. I did not stop. I couldn't. People were falling down due to injury and possibly to their death. The pieces of building were flying everywhere. You couldn't tell who was hurt or dead. I was afraid. I covered my head with my purse. People were grabbing each other. I grabbed people and people grabbed me. I'm not quite sure why but I held hands with a few strangers in those brief moments. I was screaming. Everyone was screaming. I ran.

<end quote>

At any rate, it is a very moving site. Please try to read the stories and download them, because over time many of the links are disappearing.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Because this event got so much television coverage
with live videos of the event, I think it is hard for people to separate what they saw that day from what they also saw and heard on TV.

Combine that with different POV's and out of 100 people, you'll end up with 100 different stories.

One thing is consistent, that most of the first hand reports from that day are very contradictory.


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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't know what happened with specificity
I was in Palo Alto CA when it happened. I saw it on TV.

Any such event has an air of unreality, but the official story didn't seem "right" to me from the start. It makes even less sense now than it did then. The "facts": just don't pass even a basic sniff test. Add in the suspicious behavior of the bush gang that day, the rapid and total destruction of evidence, the lack of any serious investigation, the immediate poiticization of the event and the hard-core cover-up mode that all levels of government went into and I'm dead certain that whatever happened, it wasn't the official cover story.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here's an interesting one from a pilot who actually got some pics
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 01:15 PM by DoYouEverWonder
Not of the planes but of the aftermath. Check out his website to see the pics he took from his Cessna.


That morning I took off from my field in Northern NJ to just bum around as usual in a rented Cessna 172SP and was planning to do the VOR approach at FWN and an ILS at MSV to keep my instrument skills in check, when I climbed out to about 2500 and leveled out to stay under Class B airspace floor, I was right about over Lincoln Park airport (N07) when I glanced back at the city and saw the smoke coming out of WTC (it was a VFR and a million morning, so you could really see far out), "damn! wtf?" I thought as I hit the throttle and went direct to Alpine Tower where I joined the Hudson VFR corridor, and tuned in to the self-announcement UNICOM freq 123.05. There was all kinds of talk about a "commuter plane gone into WTC", so I also tuned in to 1010 WINS AM newsradio on the ADF receiver and listened in, they hadn't had a clue either, all they were saying that a plane went into the building. Meanwhile I was just heading down the corridor at all the speed that a fully-shoved C-172 throttle can afford and announcing myself as usual "Spamcan 123, one thousand feet, GWB, southbound", and by the time I made it to about Holland Tunnel I saw a bunch of helicopters around the WTC, smoke billowing out of the #1 tower and the atmosphere of some real big sh*t hitting the fan.

As I'm flying closer, almost opposite the WTC, right next to the Harborside Center in Jersey City, I see this airliner coming down in a steep bank, my first thought was, WTF is this guy doing!??? Why is he diving so steep to take a look at the fire! And it's an airliner! (looked like a 737 to me at the time). I muttered something along the lines "Jeez, this guy is gonna get so fired by his airline, it's not even funny!" The next moment.... it hits the building.... I felt like I was inside a cartoon or a movie, maybe that "Independence Day" flick, at the moment I thought I was seeing things, like this can't be, this isn't real... But I had my camera in hand and snapped virtually a split second later after the impact, I was simply too awestruck when I saw the plane, so it didn't click in me to actually shoot the thing (but if I had a Stinger SAM with me, damn, I wish I did and I would)

Next... I didn't know what to do, but I headed out towards Sandy Hook, called the approach and begged them for flight following, just GET ME OUTTA HERE... they kept me on following until about Colts Neck VOR where they said "unable" and told me I was on my own.... I tried to go back to my field, tuned in the tower... they couldn't hear me, but I could hear that TEB was closed and they were about to get closed and told every aircraft to land.. gave up on the thought of going back to my field and landed at a first field in sight, , where a bunch of other awestruck pilots where trying to get a grasp on what's going on.... After couple of hours it calmed down and airport manager shutdown the place and gave me a lift back to my airport, where I picked up my car... the FBO was closed...

This is so f****ed up, I never felt so helpless, at some point I even feared that people are gonna start shooting at any aircraft flying above them... That's when it dawned on me to just land and deal with the rest of crap later, which I did, I'm here, I'm still sober.


http://www.maxho.com/wtc/index.html
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I remember the story about the guy in the Cessna, thanks
for posting that. I don't understand how he was able to fly in that location after the first tower had already been hit. I would think he'd have been radioed to get the hell out of there. If his story his true, this just make the OCT even more incredible. How could someone be allowed to fly over or near Manhattan at that time without immediately getting an escort or something, considering what had already happened, it's crazy! He got the pictures but not of the plane...Also, it looks like there is another plane in the distance on the picture labeled "impact".
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. I agree, that doesn't make sense.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good catch.
The fact that all four planes, along with their passengers, seats, mechanical gear and luggage, simply vanished into their respective buildings / holes makes me extremely skeptical that they were jumbo passenger craft.

And if they weren't, the people spreading the message that they were are very, very good at what they do.
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Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Lots of people saw the video of the gentleman that allegedly lost his head

in Iraq, too. Beheaded by TERRORISTS, in a terrifying moment of terror, and the world (okay, not the entire world) was able to see the videotape thru the lenses of their own eyes. Then, in a moment of pique, someone had the audacity to point out that it was a bloodless beheading. NO BLOOD to be seen anywhere. You know, kind of like that cororner in Pennsylvania who was called to the scene where FL93 allegedly crashed and reported that he didn't see even one drop of blood anywhere.

It's that kind of sloppy workmanship that's what the OCT mean when they talk about the incompetence and negligence that were so much a part of the events of September 11, 2001. HINT to the perps: If the scene calls for gore, show GORE! I know, I know, he was in Australia, or was it Austria that day, but you know what I mean.

What percentage of the public still believes the beheading video wasn't faked and actually does show someone literally losing their head...on camera?

Conclusion: "they" are very very good at fooling the public. Big bucks for a Big Bang theory that the public will buy - hook, line, and sinker.
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StealthyDragon Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "they" are very very good at fooling the public.
yes..........and it's not like they are trying to fool rocket scientists.........................................................or physicists!

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Your account of Nick Berg's beheading is not correct.
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 09:55 PM by boloboffin
There is most definitely blood in that video. It is all over the place.

Having watched that video several times, I can verify that. You do the memory of that innocent boy wrong by your errant account of his death.

And this is, once again, a changing of the subject by you, Americus. That's at least four or five in such a short time of being here!

A discussion of WTC eyewitnesses threatens to become disrupted by a discussion, once again on these boards, of Nick Berg. I'm sure you didn't mean to change the subject, but having only been here for under sixty posts, I thought that you should know: we try to keep to one topic in threads. That way, we can focus on an actual discussion instead of jumping willy-nilly from topic to topic, and never accomplishing anything.

No need to thank me for pointing out some guidelines! Your focus on the subject at hand is thanks enough for me.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Why would you watch that several times?nt
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Because when it was released
There were a lot of questions about its authenticity. There were two different cameras used to film the beheading, and the edited video switched back and forth between them. I was trying to establish which camera was taping what.

Nick Berg's head was clearly severed from his body on camera. There was plenty of blood, from the beginning of the act to the end, when the beheader held the head up to the camera. The final scene was the head placed on the back of the bound body.

This should sound familar, because it recently happened to a journalist in Iraq.
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Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. In other words, when you first saw it, you had doubts about it.

Just like the 9/11 videotapes of the alleged airliiner crashes into the WTC. There were and stiill are, a lot of questions about their authenticity. At first glance, they look like what the OCT folks say happened. With more information and further study of them, it becomes obvious that since the WTC wasn't made of "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter", there's no way a large airplane (or even a small one) could merge seemlessly into a building as the videos show...unless the video was made using Microsoft's Flight Simulator software.

Ditto the above for the Pentagon and those rare shots of Moe Atta and The Two Hanis at the airport.

In the JFK assassination case, the Lone Nutter crowd (professionals like Mel Ayton and amateurs) are stuck with the Single (Magic) Bullet Theory. They HAVE to defend it at all costs, else their entire case falls apart. That's why they will say anything and use any tactic that is a threat to their theory of the case.

This is all very familiar stuff, because it's nothing new and continues to happen on a regular basis.

P.S. Speaking of the unreliability of eyewitness accounts - how about the couple who identified the wrong woman as their own daughter. This was in the news just last week. And that was not an act. They really thought the wrong woman was their daughter.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Absolutely not. Refrain from putting words in my mouth. n/t
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Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. "there were questions about its authenticity". YOUR exact words.

Initial impressions are often wrong.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Not from me, Americus. Refrain from twisting my words.
My statement acknowledging questions existed doesn't mean I had them.
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Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. No one said you had questions.

However, it's certainly reasonable for one to infer that you too, had questions. Stop accusing me of things I didn't do. That isn't fair.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. "In other words, when you first saw it, you had doubts"...YOUR own words
It was not at all reasonable to infer that I had questions. You most certainly did twist my words and portray my position as something it wasn't. The evidence is right there.
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Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Lots of people had questions about that faked videotape. The way you phrased your message is open to the interpretation that you too had questions about it. Maybe now would be a good time for you to go ahead and answer the question asked of you by mirandapriestly.

It's my opinion that the faked snuff tape was NOT the result of coincidence, incompetence, negligence, or intelligence failures. OTOH, it's failure to be convincing might be attributed to the incompetence, negligence, and intelligence failures of the perps who produced it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. The topic is reliability of eyewitness accounts.

Whether or not eyewitness accounts of a tragic, sudden, unexpected traumatic event are reliable is what the real issue is. I take it that you disagree with the notion that the videotape of Nick Berg was faked. THAT doesn't surprise me, but what does your opinion of that videotape have to with the reliability of eyewitness accounts of it or any other event, such as those of September 11, 2001?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. How does a videotape figure into that topic?
What does YOUR opinion of that tape have to do with reliability of eyewitness accounts?
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Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Eyewitness accounts are unreliable.

Your opinion of "that tape" is that it is authentic. Others differ with you. That is the entire point. Eyewitness accounts are unreliable. I'm surprised you would even try to claim otherwise. Next question.

P.S. Some people are so insecure about their opinions that they actually try to censor (or have someone else do it for them) the views of others.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
17. I'm trying to find the time when they started to evacuate
the Marriott and it looks like it had started by the second "hit". (Funny how they knew to evacuate, but not the twin towers) Evacuation was completed by the time of the collapse, which is why they lost only a couple people. So I wonder how many people were really looking at the towers from their window at the Marriott.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. An eyewitness on the roof during hit#2- BBC
Testimony of Victor Cruzate:

When I was back in the roof I saw just before my eyes the explosion on Tower 2. I didn't see the plane, nor did any of the other guys on the roof. We speculated for a few minutes. The only thing we could imagine was on of the wings of the first plane hitting the other tower and provoking the explosion, but that was very unlikely. Finally one of the people on the roof said: "The radio is saying that there was a second plane."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1537530.stm


This illustrates my point: The radio or the tv says there was a plane although I didn't see it in person, so there must have been one.


How can people have seen such a wide array of flying objects or lack of at both Pentagon and WTC(and Shanksville for that matter)? It might be that they were told a plane was there and they included that even if they didn't see it, they thought they did.
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Nice spot...Miranda......Cruzate should have seen the plane.....
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 02:48 PM by seatnineb
But did not..........

And this was Cruzate's viewpoint......as shown in his own video...

He was shooting from the North East.........



You can see more here:

http://www.cruzate.com/nyhell/

Meanwhile on T.V.......





9/11 maybe a case of Video killed the Witness Star.....Video killed the Witness star....Video killed the Witness star...
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Too bad he didn't have his camera on
before the 2nd plane hit.
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