A MINOR rant for the day

[serryjw]

I was out working on my local petition for the city of Lakewood (CO). I saw a man wear a fabulous necklace that had Wes Clark’s name on it. I complimented him and we exchanged names. I said I was at the D/T Denver party for Wes when he through his hat into the ring for 2004, he said he was also. By this time I recognized him, doubt if he recognized me. He was very involved in the original Clark draft. He is hoping Clark will run again in 2008

We started talking about the implosion of the Republican Party and how the dems don’t seem to be benefiting from it. We were talking about how difficult it has been for the dems to position them selves after 9-11. (I knew better, but couldn’t resist) and I started talking about MIHOP>.I explained how in the history of the world steel buildings have never imploded and how it takes weeks to plant demolition to implode a building> How did they do this is a few hours? MIHOP.> He very quickly said he was running late and had to go…. and left!

What hope do we have to get the truth out if committed, involved loyal democrats don’t want to hear the truth?

[Eric J in MN]

1. Other steel builidngs weren't hit with big planes full of fuel,

hence there isn't a previous incident which is comparable.

I don't believe that bombs were planted in the Twin Towers.

[StClone]

17. No evidence

Of explosives. If you study the design of the WTC towers the architecture, in my mind, is very conducive to the pancaking observed though not predicted by any engineer.

[Chemical Bill]

18. That is part of the problem...

there never were any tests conducted for residue of explosives, the steel was sold for scrap faster than you can say "impeachment". You could be right, there could have been no evidence of explosives, but we'll never really know.

Bill

[Eric J in MN]

21. The reason Zacharias Moussauoi was arrested is that a flight

instructor contacted law enforcement, worried that Moussauoi would fly a plane into a building with terrible results. Lots of jet fuel means a big explosion.

[Rich Hunt]

29. uh-huh

In order to understand 9/11, you have to think like a terrorist, as horrible as that sounds.

They want to 'win', whatever 'winning' means to them.

They studied for this thing, of course, and that means they were looking at the
vulnerabilities of the structure itself.

The WTC was an amazing engineering feat, and according to some documentaries
I've seen, it withstood the planes better than most buildings would. That they
were taken down by 767s is not a slight against the building - in fact, they HAD
to use planes to bring the thing down. But that is not to say that the terrorists
didn't scrutinize the buildings for vulnerabilities. I am SURE they did. Putting
bombs all over the place wouldn't have been any guarantee of accomplishing
their 'mission', and it's a rather clumsy and inefficient way of doing things, no?

Like I said, you have to think like terrorists, like people who have to operate
and plan in the shadows....

[MrSammo1]

31. Do you........

Believe in miracles?

[staticstopper]

32. That's a good point but

when the twin towers were engineered to withstand a 707 (?) hit, didn't they take into account the fuel in the plane also?

[AZCat]

33. No.

There didn't exist the technological means to model it at the time. Even now it took a herculean effort by the NIST team to model the building response to impact and fire, and if you've read anything about the NIST report in this forum there certainly is a lot of criticism of their modelling (and some of it is actually warranted).

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[serryjw]

6. IF I am...I'm not alone

way to many people have said the same thing since 9-11. Sorry, If you can't accept the truth. We don't need 'previous' happenings to confirm this. Steele building don'timplode...and what about building 7?

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. Please....pay no attention to building 7!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. No one is suppose to know it was imploded!:spank:

[serryjw]

9. RFLOL!

Anyone that doesn't KNOW this, is NOT paying attention.

[IChing]

27. You are not allowed to talk about building 7

Building 7 is off limits, you need to talk about jet fuel, not gravity or building 7.
Or for that matter no testing of building 7 for explosive residues.
So let's not talk about building 7 and just talk about the 19 highjackers.
OK?
No more on building 7, ok?

That's the very last time I'll talk about building 7



Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,
Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,
Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,Building 7, Building 7,

:toast: :spank: :spank: :spank:

[hack89]

34. Are you talking about the building that suffered severe structural damage

in addition to several large fires? The building that was observed to have bulging walls hours before its collapse?

But then, having read all the reports, you would know that all ready so I am confused by your post.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hack89]

38. I must have missed the part...

about the Madrid building suffering severe structural damage before the fires. And of course the fact that the Madrid building was constructed in a completely different manner than WTC7 is totally irrelevant. :eyes:


Deputy Chief Peter Hayden:

but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayd ...

Deputy Chief Nick Visconti:

I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visc ...


Battalion Chief John Norman:

From there, we looked out at 7 World Trade Center again. .... but at the edge of the south face you could see that it was very heavily damaged.

We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/norm ...

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyl

Also there was this:

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf

page 165

One Battalion Chief coming from the building indicated that they had searched floors 1 through 9 and found that the building was clear.390 In the process of the search, the Battalion Chief met the building’s Fire Safety Director and Deputy Fire Safety Director on the ninth floor. The Fire Safety Director reported
that the building’s floors had been cleared from the top down. By this time, the Chief Officer responsible for WTC 7 reassessed the building again and determined that fires were burning on the following floors:
6, 7, 8, 17, 21, and 30.391 No accurate time is available for these actions during the WTC 7 operations; however, the sequence of event indicates that it occurred during a time period from 12:30 p.m. to
approximately 2:00 p.m.

The Chief Officer then met with his command officer to discuss the building’s condition and FDNY’s capabilities for controlling the building fires. A Deputy Chief who had just returned from inside the
building reported that he had conducted an inspection up to the 7th or 8th floor.392 He indicated that the stairway was filling with smoke and that there was a lot of fire inside the building. The chiefs discussed the situation and the following conditions were identified:

• The building had sustained damage from debris falling into the building, and they were not sure about the structural stability of the building.

• The building had large fires burning on at least six floors. Any one of these six fires would have been considered a large incident during normal FDNY operations.

• There was no water immediately available for fighting the fires.

• They didn’t have equipment, hose, standpipe kits, tools, and enough handie talkies for conducting operations inside the building.

At approximately, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building. 395, 396 The order terminated the ongoing rescue
operations at WTC 6 and on the rubble pile of WTC 1. Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At approximately 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.

[BlueManDude]

8. Bush exploited 9/11 - he didn't create it. n/t

[serryjw]

10. IF you believe that, you have not read the hundreds of

posts on DU outlining the evidence. Too much has happened since 9-11 that sent me from LIHOP to MIHOP a year ago.

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. It's pretty damn clear to ME what happened on 911 and

it was the story this regime fed us either.

[Clara T]

3. Difficult pill for folks to swallow

[converted_democrat]

4. People don't want to believe that Bushco is "that" evil..

They don't want to believe that something like this could happen in our own country.. It's too much for many to process..

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. IF the Atta and other terroists, Sun Cruz ship/Abramoff, repuke connection

is ever made public...THEN people will listen.

[question everything]

11. If this is what you suggest we embrace for the next campaign

we are doomed.

Might as well resign to the fact that the Republicans will continue to win again and again.

First, you are wrong. Many engineers explained it. Second, as Karl Rove proved, you have to address the immediate needs and concerns of the voters: jobs, good schools, access to health care and decent retirement.

If this is your campaign than you have lost before you even stated. And gained a tin foil hat in the process.

Shudder..

[serryjw]

14. OMG..If the truth about 9-11

is irrelevant we are doomed. You think jobs are more important than the truth coming out.Give me links concerning engineers that disagree. As far as KKarl Rove, forgive me if I don't give a sh*t what he says. Now we are quoting him as proof?

[question everything]

16. He did win two elections

Yes, I know. We blame the irregularity in FL and in OH but the reality is that many swallowed his propaganda while being unemployed and lacking health insurance. Because he knows how to mobilize the masses with issues that, he says, should matter to them like abortion and gay marriage. While watching the Enron movie, when I saw all the poor former employees leaving with their boxes I could not help but thinking that, no doubt, they still voted for Bush.

I did not go in search of engineering links. Plenty was published in the immediate days following 9/11. Plus, the voters today have short attention span. Any revelations about 9/11 - and your "evidence" is lacking - will not resonate. If Rumsfeld with succeed in getting the troops back home within, say, six months, the war of Iraq won't matter to many voters either, in the mid-term elections later this fall, and in 2008.

If our candidates ignore these, we will lose again and again. And, it really does not matter what I think. It is what is happening in the communities.

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. NO he did not win 2 elections. 2000 was stolen by purging 80,000 voters

from the FL. rolls and he had a little help from daddy's SCOTUS. The 2004 election WAS STOLEN by the evoting machines being hacked. He's an illegitimate asshole. He has NEVER been elected.

[nomatrix]

26. Your dog makes me smile every time I see it!

Many days I look for your post to see your pup. What breed is it?

Back to the topic...

I was just going to take the ride to the 9/11 basement and POOF! before I could post, here we are.

The thing that really, really, bugs me is the framing of the topic.
The republican machine is not a single person.
Please people, no matter what you want to believe, it is extremely well funded by powers beyond our insignificant votes.
Consider the energy meeting before 9/11 in Cheney's office (that he fought to keep secret) and how much power sat there. Not just oil. Think of all the resources that kind of money buys.
After all the facts that have been reported, it boggles my mind that anyone would believe the group controlling the US didn't know what was going on.

OTOH, do you remember one president who smiled when they relived the date of a tragedy, such as this one has? Watched quite a few presidents talk of their wars, but never with the gusto of a sports event.

[serryjw]

25. You and I have different priorities

I would be unemployed and homeless IF we could get the truth of 9-11 out. You are buying (as is all americans because MSM are complicit) to "in 6 months it won't matter". Does the truth of whom killed JFK matter to you...it does to me.

[...of J.Temperance]

37. Well I don't think that the BFEE(Poppy) assassinated JFK

If that's what you mean.

[pauldp]

41. what the hell are you doing with that screen name then?

have you checked this out?
www.cooperativeresearch.org

[Sgent]

13. Personally

I don't think MIHOP / LIHOP buy-in is requried for Democratic success. Yes, its yet another thing to be angry at the * administration about, but the bottom line was that the AM Public rejected that Nov 2004. Bushes failure as a president, and rethiglican corruption, expands well beyond MIHIP/LIHOP.

IMHO MIHOP is a very tough sell, LIHOP a little less, but neither should be neccissary for Democratic victory -- if it is, we are toast.

[serryjw]

15. Never said there was a litmus test to belong to DU

You can reject it if you want...certainly your prerogative, BUT There is way too many over whelming coincidences that can not be explained away by ignoring the evidence. Bushit and the entire administration are worthless but IMHO there is nothing more important than 9-11 truth coming out.
Different than you, I don't give a sh*t for a Democratic victory IF you give me the other side of the same coin.

[peanutbrittle]

19. They may be more willing to believe if

they can see the evidence that has been presented within the MSM

nice compilation, see here>>>>>>>>>>http://www.wanttoknow.info/911coverup10pg

snip

911 was one of the most pivotal events in world history. Its impact will be felt for years to come. You owe it to yourself to go beyond the sound bites and the simplified official story. This is an extremely complicated story with numerous players and motives. Not all the 911 facts make sense or fit neatly together. It's a story full of espionage, deceit, and lies. But if there are forces out there tricking us, they can only succeed if we, the general public, remain ignorant and passive.

I am limiting my sources on this 911 coverup summary to those one might call "mainstream." Why? It's not that I believe one can only trust the mainstream media. In fact, I feel the opposite is true - much of the best reporting today is coming from alternative media. But many people are initially very skeptical. A lot of 911 coverup facts I found looking around the web seemed very hard to believe when I first saw them. My goal is to use mainstream sources to open eyes to new possibilities. After seeing the importance of what’s being hidden from us, you will very likely want to join in working together to build a brighter future.

10 pages more>>>>>>http://www.wanttoknow.info/911coverup10pg

[Grateful for Hope]

23. Thank you for the link

I had not seen this site before. Very interesting!

[peanutbrittle]

24. You are welcome....

just found it today myself. I impressed as well.

[salvorhardin]

39. Oh nice!

Now that's a real credible site.

Lost in Translation: How Bush Interpreter Got Through Security
He Is Fluent in Indonesian, But He Also Testifies For Accused Terrorist

By ANDREW HIGGINS and JAY SOLOMON
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
February 22, 2005; Page A1
JAKARTA, Indonesia -- Frederick Burks believes in UFOs, communes with dolphins, runs a Web site that promotes conspiracy theories about U.S. complicity in the 9/11 attacks and thinks Washington may have had a hand in blowing up bars on the Indonesian resort island of Bali.

And, until last October, he had the ear of the world's most powerful man: The 46-year-old California resident worked as an interpreter for George W. Bush in the president's dealings with the leader of Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation.

Now Mr. Burks has popped up in Jakarta as a star witness for the defense in the terrorism trial of a fundamentalist Islamic cleric. "He has some anger but he's a nice old man," says Mr. Burks of Abu Bakar Baasyir, the 68-year-old preacher the U.S. believes was behind the 2002 Bali bombings. The cleric is also believed by the U.S. to be the leader of a regional terrorist network linked to al Qaeda, but he strongly denies that and, in an earlier trial in 2003, an Indonesian court cleared him of directing a terrorist outfit.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/050222wsj

On edit: Frederick Burks is the owner of that site, in case you missed the obvious.

[peanutbrittle]

22. 3,2,1 seeya! LOL....hmmm

sorry if I killed the thread...but what I posted is all verified MSM reporting

Me thinks they are going a little overboard..but who am I? LOL

As the 9/11 Hijacker, Suncruz Abramoff hearsay thread gets to stay in GD I guess, not that it matters to me really..just kinda seems a little strange

[MercutioATC]

28. People (even Dems) have differing opinions.

There are plenty of Democrats who don't believe in MIHOP. That has nothing to do with not wanting to hear the truth.

[MrSammo1]

30. You're not surprised..........

are you?

===============================================================
The neocon brainwashing formulation is: Conspiracy theories are for idiots, I am not an idiot, therefore I will not countenance them.
===============================================================

[LoZoccolo]

36. Here is the conspiracy theorist brainwashing formula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Features

You would not tolerate this kind of sloppy thinking from the John Birch Society; why would you tolerate it here?

[LARED]

40. Thanks for that very useful link n/t

[PaganPreacher]

42. He was only half listening....

and he thought you said "IHOP".




He went to get some blueberry pancakes with butter-maple syrup and a chili cheeseburger on the side.

Maybe you should have enunciated better.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.