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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 07:25 AM
Original message
Has anyone seen this?
I just stumbled across this on page 44 of the 9/11 Commission's Terrorism Travel monograph. Has anyone seen it?

Sept. 13, 2001. A “Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Student Identity Card” was found in the rubble at the
Pentagon with Moqed’s name on it. Forensic examination indicated that it may have been fraudulent.
United States Secret Service Forensic Services report for the FBI PENTTBOM investigation regarding the
physical examination of forensic science research request, Oct. 10, 2001.


The Moqed there is 9/11 hijacker Majed Moqed. The story about Satam al Suqami's passport being found in the wreckage of the World Trade Center was a big deal (most people for some reason keep calling it Mohamed Atta's passport) but I've never seen any mentions about this very similar thing. My question is, just what was the Pentagon wreckage like? Is there any evidence of things like documents surviving?
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Returned effects
"I met with hundreds of victims from the Pentagon. At one of those meetings in a congressman's office, four or five women who lost their husbands came with two or three kids. At one point, one woman took off a wedding band and gave it to me. She said 'this they gave me with his remains.' It was charred and scratched. She said, 'Just hold it and feel what we lost.'"

There was an effort to return stuff from the WTC:
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. wedding band
A charred and scratched metal wedding ring surviving vs. a paper document. Very different, don't you think? Are there any accounts of paper objects surviving, as in the Flight 93 crash?
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Effects; university; al Suqami's education
A whole bunch of stuff was returned from the Pentagon:
"I knew it was Jimmie's handkerchief," Jackson-Holley said, remembering her husband. "Jimmie always folded his handkerchiefs the same way. The edges were never even. He didn't like me to iron his handkerchiefs. He liked the softness from the dryer."
The beige handkerchief belonging to Jimmie Ira Holley, 54, a budget analyst for the Army who died Sept. 11, is among thousands of items matched to victims by officials at the Joint Personal Effects Depot.
The depot, housed in former horse stables at the historic Army base in Arlington, was set up the day after the attack to receive, inventory, photograph, clean, store and distribute items from the Pentagon, the FBI warehouse and Dover Air Force Base, where the bodies were sent for identification.
The inventory provides a poignant glimpse inside the lives of people caught up in the Pentagon tragedy. There are aged photographs of women in bustles, pictures of groups of grinning soldiers, decorated frames with children on playgrounds. There are antique coins, military medals and plaques with scorched nameplates. There are baseball caps, dozens of sets of keys, clocks, CDs ranging from Smash Mouth to the Chicago Symphony, sweaters, several pairs of flat shoes and even an empty bottle of extra-dry Andre champagne. There are gold wedding bands, diamond watches, link bracelets -- many gnarled and blackened from the explosion.
The "Unassociated Personal Effects Register," known to many as The Book, includes more than 300 pages of items that are stored in labeled brown boxes on gray shelves inside the depot awaiting release to survivors and families.
Like the toy car that was returned to one family and the hand-carved toy that was returned to another. And the desk nameplate that one husband was so desperate for. And the man's wedding band that one family wanted so a new groom could use it.
Maj. Andrew Williams, the depot's operations officer, remembered an insurance card that was returned to one family. "Even something that small -- a health care card -- it gave them closure," he said.
Feliciano said the hardest thing for him was looking at wallets. "You see their picture ID and you see what they look like, then you see the pictures of children, and then the list comes out and this man's name was on it.

Another piece of jewellery:
She was shown autopsy photos of her fellow crew members, including the severed arm of her best friend at work, which she recognized from the bracelet she wore.

Items found in the impact area and adjacent offices were considered evidence in the criminal investigation and were claimed by the FBI.

Lots of stuff survived the United 93 crash:
Those items such as a wedding ring and other jewelry, photos, credit cards, purses and their contents, shoes, a wallet and currency are among seven boxes of identified personal effects salvaged from the site. They sit in an El Segundo, Calif., mortuary and will be returned to victims' families in February.
"We have some property for most passengers," said Craig Hendrix, a funeral coordinator and a personal effects administrator with Douglass Air Disaster Funeral Coordinators, a company often contacted by airlines after devastating crashes.
For example, about two weeks ago, FBI agents presented the wedding ring and wallet of passenger Andrew Garcia to his wife, Dorothy, in Portola Valley, Calif.
About Thanksgiving, Jerry and Beatrice Guadagno of Ewing, N.J., received word that their son Richard's credentials and badge from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had been found by the FBI at the crash site.
"It was practically intact," Richard's sister Lori said of the credentials, which were returned in their wallet. "It just looked like it wasn't damaged or hadn't gone through much of anything at all, which is so bizarre and ironic. Everything takes on an extra special meaning, especially when there's so little that you have."
Hendrix said the personal effects that survived the crash were ejected from the plane at the moment of impact.
In the meantime, Douglass is refurbishing jewelry, straightening credit cards and photos with steam heat, and topically disinfecting most other items.

Which university did Majed Moqed go to anyway?
Arab News says the Kind Saud University in Riyadh:
A family member of Majed Mishaan Al-Harbi, 22, another suspect, told Arab News that Majed was studying at King Saud University in Riyadh at the Faculty of Administration and Economics. He said he was a peace-loving person and did not behave strangely in any way.
The family member, who requested anonymity, said that he met Majed a year ago in Riyadh. At that time, he told me he was going to Qatar to meet his friends. He had a plan to visit the United States to learn English, he said, and added that the picture of Majed carried by the media did not bear a clear resemblance. He believed that it was not the picture of Majed.

Majed Moqed, the son of a tribal headman near Medina who died on flight AA77, had attended Mohammed ibn Saud University in Buraydah too.
Jason Burke, Al Qaeda, p. 247

Most people repeat the Arab News story, but that doesnt make it correct.

The interior ministry forbade his family from holding a funeral for him in late September 2001

The interior ministry shut down his funeral reception held by his family late September 2001.

I also notice that there is a difference of opinion over Satam al Suqami:
Satam M. A. Al Suqami 24 from Riyadh. He was a student at King Saud University in Riyadh where he met Majid Moqed.

Suqami had very little education, and Moqed had dropped out of university. Neither Suqami nor Moqed appears to have had ties to the other, or to any of the other operatives, before getting involved with extremists, probably by 1999.

He cant have studied law at an elite university and have very little education.
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thanks
Kevin, you do some very good research. However, I'm not sure if your link about the personal items found means anything relevant here. Keep in mind there were people working in the Pentagon killed too, and of course personal effects of those people will survive. In that Arlington article you link to for instance, there's mention of papers found in a filing cabinet. Obviously that refers to a filing cabinet in the Pentagon, not one on the plane.

Can you dig deeper and see if you can find reference to any personal effects found of people on the airplane?

Also, the mention of Flight 93 is totally irrelevant here. As I mention in at least one of my timeline entries, Flight 93 was "leaking" before it crashed, spilling paper and other items the last couple of miles. So that situation is completely different.

Interesting facts you found about some of the hijackers. I understand you're on vacation, but when you get back maybe you'd like to research that more. I'd especially like to know more about the Alshehri brothers (Wail and Waleed). Some really weird contradictions about them. I have a whole bunch of articles on that, including one in the Palm Beach Post where the reporters realized some of the oddities and titled the article "Mysterious Brothers Left a Confusing Trail."
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Toys
Some of the stuff was obviously from the Pentagon, not the plane - this shows that it could survive the fire, not that the actual plane crashed there. However, I think some of the stuff, for example the toys, are probably from the plane (weren't there a load of kids on the plane?).

Also, documents can survive air crashes, for example:
"A young teenage student, Abidur Rehman, showed two passport size photographs of air force officers collected from the crash site. One of the photographs has Javed written on the official's uniform badge."
That's from the Mushaf Ali Mir crash.

Please send me the stuff about the alshehhi brothers.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. 4 passengers' effects were found AFAIK
Suzanne Calley
As a responder with the FEMA US&R team from Va Beach, I worked at the Pentagon for 7 days. I found some of Suzanne's things in the rubble in perfect condition. I will never forget that moment, nor the feeling I got of what a special person she must have been. My thoughts and prayers go out to her loved ones.

Her husband was called Frank Jensen:
Jensen spent last years anniversary of the national tragedy in Washington, D.C. There, a Pentagon official - assigned to Calleys family as a liaison - gave Jensen his wifes wedding ring, which had been recovered from the plane.

Capt. Jim Ingledue of the Virginia Beach Fire Department and 9/11 first responder found the completely unblemished California ID card, drivers license and wedding ring of one of the Flight 77 passengers amidst the devastation and rubble at the Pentagon.
This is by a journalist (hint: his initials are GS) who is (perhaps rightly) persona non grata on DU, so I wont give the URL for fear of being deleted.

The Whittingtons
Ruth's 45-year-old daughter Leslie Whittington, her husband, Charles Falkenberg, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3, were passengers on the plane.

During an interview earlier this week, Koch delicately handled eerie mementos of the crash found during cleanup: Whittington's battered driver's license. One granddaughters' luggage tag." target="_blank"> :onlin...

James and Mary Trentini
The evening before the couple boarded American Flight 11, Mary and her 41-year-old daughter, Patti, of Irvine, Calif., talked about what they would do once the couple arrived. Mary told her daughter that she had an extra suitcase filled with toys for the grandchildren.
This is probably the source of the toys found.

That gives me four passengers whose stuff was found: Suzanne Calley, Charles Falkenberg, Zoe or Dana and Mary Trentini.
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Whittingtons
I think you have a good example here with the Whittingtons. The other stuff could be made of more solid material. I would not be at all surprised if something like a wedding ring survived, but a driver's license is quite different.
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killtown Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. And who says they found that wedding band
at the Pentagon again? You know there are other ways to char and scratch a wedding band to make it look like it came from the scene of a crash.
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killtown Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. A Pentanium Student ID Card!!!
Great find Paul, as usual!

Just put your find up on my Flt 77 suspicious debris page (near bottom).

To my knowledge, this is the 1st plastic item reportedly found at the Pent from the plane. I think even the most ardent official story supporters will even agree that it's absurd this flimsy plastic ID card survived the fiery crash and still was able to read the hijackers name was on there!
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killtown Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Come on official 9/11 story supporters!
Tell us how Moqed's plastic Student ID Card managed to be recovered at the Pentagon from being on a plane that hit the fortified building at 530 mph :banghead: , exploding into a million pieces :nuke: , and surviving the inferno afterward :grr: so well that his name was still able to be read on the card!

(This oughta be good! :rofl: )
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Pretty sure of yourself
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 07:30 AM by LARED
I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would think finding an ID card is some sort of miracle?

The card can survive the imapct. Many items survived. Or do you think everything vaporizes?

The card is one of the millions of pieces created by the impact.

And not every item in the plane was destroyed by fire.
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