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delver Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:11 PM
Original message
The battle for Reason: Debunk the Debunkers
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 09:17 PM by delver
What does it mean to be a skeptic? Not to believe what the government tells you? Not to believe what those wacky progressives tell you? Not to believe anything? It seems that many who try to debunk the 9/11 Truth movement think that their logic and skepticism is more rigorous than ours. Yet all they are really saying is, "Don't question anything, believe what the authorities tell you." Their critiques are often full of deceitful, lawyerly techniques. Don't forget, these are the kind people who rationalize for the continuance of a completely corrupt form of society. Capitalism, the US specifically, has, in its short-sightedness, succeeded in putting the earth down an inevitable path to environmental and ecological catastrophe. Please see this site on mass extinction for a taste of what we have done to the earth:

http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html

Don't forget: you are the authority of your reality! Not the TV, not police, not Senators, not your parents or friends, and not the fucking president! Don't let anyone tell you what you can and cannot believe! This system is completely broken and those who cannot face it or want to hide it from you will use every hypocrital, dirty, deceitful trick in the book. It is up to each and every one of us to awaken and decide what we believe and what we stand for. It should be clear what I believe, but that does not mean that I expect you to automatically believe the same things.

It is telling to note who offers you information and facts and who offers you persuasion and opinions. The 9/11 Truth movement has facts, our opponents have "gut-feelings," ridicule, and deception.

Check out this anti-9/11 Truth column from the LA Weekly:
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/35/dissonance-cooper.php

Here is a particularly poignant quote:

"But for the most part, conspiracies lure those who seek the comfort of simplicity -- whether the duped reside in Van Nuys or Venezia. What are conspiracy theories, really, other than one-size-fits-all explanations for terribly complex and often contradictory realities? And subscribing to any such theory also avoids the discomfort of self-examination."

For those of us who have thrown ourselves into studying the hidden facts behind 9/11, has it really about comfort or simplicity!? Has this endeavor really helped you "AVOID THE DISCOMFORT OF SELF-EXAMINATION."? CAN YOU SAY "DELUDED" OR "HYPOCRISY"? I HOPE SO!!

I don't think any independent 9/11 researcher, amateur or professional, claims to know exactly what happened. We are simply asking for a more open and truthful investigation.


Check out this list of Debunking articles. I've read a few and they all seem to follow the same pattern.
http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm

DON'T FORGET!!! "SANITY IS NOT STATISTICAL" -ORWELL

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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. "What have they done to the earth?"
Sorrry could not resist this great and most appropro song..
Til more dems and most folks stop believing the bushevik lies then 9/11 will have a follow up..US govt history shows a long pattern of lies and abusing their own citizens for the aristorats and corporats



http://www.alwaysontherun.net/doors.htm#aj

"What have they done to the earth?
What have they done to our fair sister?
Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her
Stuck her with knives in the side of the dawn
And tied her with fences and dragged her down
I hear a very gentle sound
With your ear down to the ground
We want the world and we want it... X2
Now, Now?, Now!
Persian night, babe, See the light, babe
Save us!, Jesus!, Save us!
So when the music's over
When the music's over, yeah
When the music's over
Turn out the lights X3
Well the music is your special friend
Dance on fire as it intends
Music is your only friend
Until the end X3 " Doors 1968
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Christophera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. We Need To Agree To Unify, We Need Unity To Make Democracy Work.
Edited on Fri Jun-10-05 02:34 AM by Christophera
Great thread delver! This thread and philb's thread about "Relevent Information" are in the same area of activism. Very much where I started in 1985 working towards unity in a deeply philosophical way. What is curious is that the philosophy had a very physical reality relating to what you say below. Which is true generally but only past the fundament of an agreement all life has on earth whether it knows it or not.

Posted by delver
It should be clear what I believe, but that does not mean that I expect you to automatically believe the same things.


There is an exception to this for rational, thinking people.

We can make a short list of beliefs that are fully rational and absolutely shared, and if that sharing is not acknowledged, the person who cannot acknowledge looses credibility as a reasonable person. They cannot be trusted in their motives as a sociopath cannot be. Currently in America only a fraction can assimilate a working belief in these factors which I think underlines how screwed up Americans are.

There are three absolutes that all humans need, (all life) and to not believe they are absolute needs, renders one incompetent.

Life

Air

Water

After that, conditions change too much. Awareness of that fact creates tolerence in others beliefs, which I think is your point.

Those three elements were basically a part of Indigenous Americans and other Indigenous peoples around the planet. It was programmed into generation after generation. Those people could always return to that common ground and work outward afresh to understand their fellow humans condition.

Then, they could work together, they could agree and unify.

Unity does not depend on subject matter, it depends on awareness of what is absolutely shared. Once that is shared, differences can be accounted for and proportionately set aside for later.

Believe it or not NO activist in my 20 years of activisim has seen how critical this is as I tried to convince them to work with me in an agreement intended to grow and grow.

Look where we are now.
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Sgt. Baker Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. don't believe
I don't believe everything I've been told about 9/11. I think about everything I know about it and come to my own conclusions. That link you posted at the bottom is kinda funny but so are many of the theories that it tries to debunk. You have to at least admit that. Some of what they said on there is inadequate to debunk anything.
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Christophera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I Believe That When Private Engineers Were Not Allowed to Inspect
Edited on Fri Jun-10-05 03:27 PM by Christophera
and steel was immediately shipped off shore, damaging the US economy, there is full reason to believe that NOTHING official can be believed until it has been determined to be congreuent with raw evidence.

Remember the 3,000 murdered Americans Sgt. Baker. Believe they had rights violated and those rights are YOUR rights too.

When their families were deprived of due process, so was every other American. If one American is deprived of equal protecxtion of law, that deprivation may well extend to all other Americans because what protects one, may protect many.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
4. That's a cool move
You go from this falsehood about 9/11 CT debunkers

"Don't question anything, believe what the authorities tell you."

to stunning rhetorical foolisness

Don't forget, these are the kind people who rationalize for the continuance of a completely corrupt form of society. Capitalism,....


to this doomsdays hyperbole;

in its short-sightedness, succeeded in putting the earth down an inevitable path to environmental and ecological catastrophe.

In one paragraph. Cool.

And your title is "The battle for Reason" :)
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Rob Conn Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Good stuff!
Keep it coming.
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delver Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. anybody actually read the debunking articles
i thought this was a pretty compelling post, if i do say so myself. funny, nobody seems to want to talk about this subject.
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