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The crash of "UA 93" and the fireball over Indian Lake

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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 03:23 PM
Original message
The crash of "UA 93" and the fireball over Indian Lake
This piece will establish the thesis that on September 11 at about 10 a.m. a plane exploded over Indian Lake, PA in a fireball - and that this plane is NOT identical with the object that caused the crater believed to be the grave of UA 93.

It is based on the excellent research of DU members John Doe and Zaphod 36 whose compilation proves that the many statements of eyewitnesses don't yield a coherent picture; quite to the contrary, it shows that the story of the last seconds of UA 93 is a hoax:

I will focus on the statement of Jim Stop, one of the most important witnesses, quoted by several sources. John Doe knows more about him and his credibility.

Jim Stop of Somerset was fishing at the Indian Lake marina, about three miles from the crash site, when he looked up and saw the plane overhead. I heard the engine whine and scream, Stop said. He then heard an explosion and saw a fireball.

This statement leaves just two conclusions:

1) Jim Stop is a liar or suffering hallucinations.
2) Jim Stop has seen a plane exploding over Indian Lake or its immediate surrounding, but surely not the plane or object that caused the crater three miles away.

Possibility 1) is very unlikely for two reasons: there is no reason for him to lie, and his statement is confirmed by other people near Indian Lake. Again, I have to refer to the article of John Doe and Zaphod 36.

To make the case for possibility 2), I'm asking the reader to stress his imagination. The assumption that Jim Stop is talking about a fireball over the crash site, three miles away, yields many problems:

1) Size: How big is an airplane three miles away? Maybe like a fly 30 ft away, i.e. very, very, small. Are you able to recognize an exploding fly from 30 ft. distance?

2) Volume: How loud is an explosion of a plane three miles away, and are you able to identify it as an explosion rather than an unidentified noise?

3) Altitude: Jim Stop was fishing at Indian Lake. Looking westward, the line of trees at the western shore of Indian Lake was his horizon. This webcam here, positioned at Indian Lake Marina, the place where he was fishing, gives a pretty good picture of his view:

Not only the crash site is too far away, the line of sight is blocked by the trees, even if the fireball was 100 ft in the air as claimed by another witness.

4) Black Smoke: Unlike the witnesses near the crash site, Jim Stop never mentioned black smoke.

An exploding plane over Indian Lake also explains the raining debris which was found there.

I stated somewhere else that the plane was crossing Indian Lake from the West. I have to correct myself, I don't know where the plane came from. But I'm sure that it didn't explode over the crash site and caused the crater of "UA 93".

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Interesting
I think a plane three miles away in the air can be seen quite clearly-- I see them all the time.

Hearing them is harder.

And it is very unlikely he saw a fireball from a crash on the ground from three miles away.

So the big question is-- where is the second crash site?
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Borg Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. Unbelievable burning seat cushion
Remember the details which were told by CNN:

"A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake." (

So we have two sites of crime, the crater of Shanksville and the Indian Lake.

Another witness, John Fleegle mentioned:

"John Fleegle, an Indian Lake Marina employee, said FBI agents were skeptical of his reports about debris in the lake <2.5 miles away from main crash site>
... said he climbed on the roof of an abandoned cabin and tossed down a burning seat cushion that had landed there. (Archived at - search burning seat cushion from 9-10-01 to 9-20-01 or read it here. It's unclear exactly how far this seat cushion is from the primary crater.)"

I wonder how a seat cushion is flying 3 miles ! And dont forget the excellent timing of the crime. It happened very short after blowing the WTC2. One more coincidence.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Topographic data
I checked a topographic map of Indian Lake:

With this map, it is possible to determine the minimum altitude of the fireball witnessed by Jim Stop.

Jim Stop was fishing at Indian Lake Marina, 2281 ft over sea level;

The crash site is at about 2400 ft over sea level; (it is the red area labeled "reclaimed strip mine").

And now the most interesting thing: half way between the crash site and Indian Lake Marina, there is a hill with 2500 ft (and more) over sea level, blocking Stop's view on the crash site (if it was not already blocked by the tree line at the shore of Indian Lake Marina).

So if the fireball was exploding over the crash site, elementary geometry yields that it must have been AT LEAST at 2720 ft over sea level ( 2500 + (2500-2280) ) - otherwise Jim Stop's view would have been blocked by the ridge of the hill. This means that it must have happened AT LEAST 300 ft in the air in relation to the ground of the crash site (2720-2400). This is a minimum requirement and conservative estimation.

But if the fireball was happening at 300 ft in the air, why was it not seen by so many witnesses near the crash site? Most of them just saw the plane disappearing behind the tree line.

The only two witnesses who saw a fireball over the crash site (but they say only 100 or 150 ft) are Eric Peterson and Paula Pluta.

I'm suspicious about the credibility of these witnesses, but I'll address this issue in another posting.

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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Interesting finding!
I have to look deeper into this.
At first I thought that it was simply a fault of the journalist as all accounts otherwise stated the Marina was 1 1/2 miles away. This was always repeated over and over again explaining officially the possibility of the wind theory.
I checked out madquest and your account is the only correct one: The Marina is three miles away.

Strange isn't it that the wind theory was expplained by the FBI always with wrong data.....

I'll have to dig deeper in this.
Good finding :)
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