NIST says One WTC7 Girder Fell at Floor 13, Bringing Entire Building Down

[petgoat]

FEMA says floors 14 through 17 were vacant. (Table 5.1)

http://www.wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm

So how does NIST know it wasn't the girder at floor 15 or 16 that fell
from silent thermite cutting charges?

[LARED]

1. They probably have not excluded that possibility, but then they

probably have not excluded zombies cutting out large sections of structure during the fires either.

[AZCat]

2. Or homeless crack addicts.

Good thing they have people like petgoat to remind them of the possibilities!

[LARED]

4. Personally I think Zombies are far more likely than homeless crack addicts

Zombies are dead, so it's easier to explain if they wind up dead.

[petgoat]

5. Barry Jennings wound up dead, it seems. Did it ever occur to you that he might have set charges? nt

[LARED]

6. no nt

[petgoat]

7. Well maybe you should ask what he was doing up there all that time.

He claimed the stairway exploded and he couldn't get down the stairs.

Well how come he didn't just take the stairway at the other end of the
building?

[LARED]

8. Maybe he was really a Zombie, and was just acting

like the typical undead. Very unpredictable you know.

[petgoat]

9. Michael Hess was with him. He was corporation counsel for NYC.

He's now senior managing partner of Giuliani Partners, a security
consulting firm. Hmmm, what does a corporation counsel know about
security?

There was also a security guard found by the firemen at 12:15 on the
7th floor.

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=michael_hess_1

Your zombie schtick is an amalgam of five objectionable disinfo techniques:

1. playing dumb
2. ad hominem attack
3. indulging in confirmation bias
4. straw man argument
5. false humor/making light of the questions

[LARED]

10. #6

One absurdity is highlights another absurdity.

[petgoat]

11. Disinfo technique #6: Declare victory and leave.

Please point out the absurdity, LARED.

The absurdity is between your ears.

[LARED]

13. The whole op is an absurdity

So how does NIST know it wasn't the girder at floor 15 or 16 that fell
from silent thermite cutting charges?

Barry Jennings wound up dead, it seems. Did it ever occur to you that he might have set charges? nt

[petgoat]

14. Invading Iraq was an absurdity too. Invading Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, letting him walk away,

and allowing the country to turn into an opium plantation is also an absurdity.

Now what is so absurd about the notion that Barry Jennings may have set cutting
charges in WTC7?

What is absurd about the notion that instead of a fire-based collapse of the
floor around Column 79 we had a thermite-induced collapse? According to Chris
Sarns's analysis, NIST greatly exaggerated the length and severity of the fires.

[AZCat]

15. It's not like they weren't growing opium before we were there.

Nobody allowed Afghanistan "to turn into an opium plantation" - they were doing that a long time before 2001 and will continue to do it for quite some time.

Chris Sarns has no fucking idea what he's talking about, much like the rest of his little "science" group. His inability to understand simple English is alarming, although typical for a conspiracy theorist.

[petgoat]

18. Taleban cut opium production by 95% in 2000.

Our invasion allowed the planting to proceed in 2001, so only
one year's crop was lost. Now there's record production.

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the facts before
opining.

That's what Chris Sarns did, noting how NIST's pretty fire diagrams
were not consistent with the photographic evidence.

[AZCat]

20. Nope, now you're making stupid assumptions again.

See, this is what happens when you don't think logically. You make yourself look like an ass. Just like Chris Sarns.

[petgoat]

22. Do you have an actual specific criticisms of Sarns's work, or just your usual aspersive innuendo? nt

[AZCat]

41. Says the same poster...

who hasn't bothered to read either the NIST report on the towers before criticising it, or Seger's posts before dismissing them as irrelevant.

Mind the mote in your eye, petgoat, or else you'll make Jesus cry.

[petgoat]

47. IOW, you don't have a specific criticism of Sarns's work.

I have read Seger's flatulent tomes, and analyzed them in some detail
until I realized that nobody else was reading them and thus nobody
would read my analysis.

I have read a lot of sections of the NIST report. Have you read all 10,000
pages?

I take it you haven't read the 3,000 pages of the WTC7 report yet, or perhaps
you could inform me whether that pretty colored drawing showing column 79
bowing and all the eastern floors under 14 collapsed while floor 15 seems to
be intact is supposed to be a true representation of what NIST claims happened.

[ObamaDaMan]

26. I'm calling this guy's bluff

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/aug/08/afghanistan.politics

US defends opium policy despite Afghanistan violence


* David Fickling
* guardian.co.uk, Tuesday August 8 2006 18.29 BST


A British patrol passes opium poppies in the Helmand province of southern Afghanistan

A British patrol passes opium poppies in southern Afghanistan's violent
America's drug tsar, John Walters, today acknowledged that US allies have voiced doubts about the wisdom of opium eradication in parts of southern Afghanistan where insurgents have killed 10 British troops over the past two months.

Speaking during a visit to London for talks with British officials, Mr Walters recognised that the situation in Helmand province had been "difficult".

In recent months, officials within the British government and military have privately expressed growing disquiet about the role of opium eradication in fuelling the Afghan insurgency....."




http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/07/heroin-cocaine-drugs-cannabis-afghanistan



Record opium harvest in Afghanistan threatens new heroin crisis in Britain
• EU agency fears glut and reversal of deaths decline
• UK tops cocaine abuse table for fifth year in row

Alan Travis in Brussels
The Guardian, Friday November 7 2008


"A glut of opium on the world market, fuelled by a record Afghan harvest, threatens a new heroin crisis in Britain, the European Union's drug agency warned yesterday. The agency's annual report also confirms that the UK remains at the top of the European league table of 27 countries for cocaine abuse for the fifth year in a row. The UK accounts for 820,000 of the 4 million Europeans who have "recently used" cocaine....."

"...The heroin warning from the European monitoring centre for drugs and drug abuse follows two record opium harvests in Afghanistan of 8,200 tonnes in 2007 and 7,700 tonnes this year. The harvests represent 90% of the world's illicit opium production with Helmand province, the centre of British military operations, accounting for over half of the crop.

"While favourable weather conditions have boosted harvests, the recurrent conflicts, because of the destruction, poverty and general insecurity that they entail, are likely to be an important factor in explaining the increases in opium production," says an agency study monitoring the supply of heroin into Europe...."

[MNReformer]

28. Interesting contradiction.

And I wonder about the money going to Pakistan--$10B more requested today to "fight terrorism", with Obama's promise of a $1.5B "bonus" if Pakistan remains a "democratic state", coupled with Obama's promise to intensify the hunt for bin Laden.

[LARED]

24. What's so absurd?

Now what is so absurd about the notion that Barry Jennings may have set cutting
charges in WTC7?

........

What is absurd about the notion that instead of a fire-based collapse of the
floor around Column 79 we had a thermite-induced collapse?


Well for starters there is exactly zero evidence that those things happened.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned just pick up a paper to find out what happened. While it might be absurd, there is abundant evidence about why it happened.

[petgoat]

25. Whenever a debunker says "zero evidence" I know there's oodles of evidence

Evidence for thermite-induced collapse:

1) "Evaporated" steel from FEMA Appendix C showing bizarre sulfidation attack

2) High temperatures in the debris pile as shown by 1300 degree surface temps in
AVARIS overflights

3) Molten metal found in the basements

4) symmetry of collapse

5) rapidity of collapse

6) implausibility of the NIST collapse mechanism (horizontal propagation, etc.)

7) lack of explosive sound

[LARED]

27. That's not evidence

Evidence for thermite-induced collapse:

1) "Evaporated" steel from FEMA Appendix C showing bizarre sulfidation attack

>>>> There have been follow up analysis performed that indicated the attack took place in the debris pile over many weeks. Not bizarre at all after science was applied.

2) High temperatures in the debris pile as shown by 1300 degree surface temps in
AVARIS overflights

>>> How is that evidence of thermite? Are you suggesting Thermite burned for many weeks?

3) Molten metal found in the basements

>>> So what everyone know the U/G fires were hot enough to melt metal

4) symmetry of collapse

>>> I know this is a creedal statement of faith amongst Ct'er as evidence. Evidence of what has never actually been explained with good reason of course as it is evidence of nothing.

5) rapidity of collapse

<<<<< Again another article of faith for CT'er. Again so what that it fell fast. How does that indicate Thermite?

6) implausibility of the NIST collapse mechanism (horizontal propagation, etc.)

>>>> In your dreams and fantasies is it implausible.


7) lack of explosive sound

>>>>> Small elves removing part of the steel structure would also not make explosives sounds.

[MNReformer]

29. The underground fires were not hot enough to melt metal

yet the debris fires burned at 1300 degrees F. and caused the "evaporation"/sulfidation? I thought the molten metal was in the debris pile.

[LARED]

30. Is there a difference between the debris pile fires and U/G fires? nt

[MNReformer]

You tell me.

http://www.investigate911.com/question-4.htm

[petgoat]

3. They excluded every possibility except their fantasy of the 13th floor girder.

Did you read the criticism of the NIST report from the CTBUH?
They said "The Council believes that the NIST report is a responsible
attempt to find the cause of the failure, and finds that the report
has investigated many of the probable causes."

IOW, they're saying NIST did not investigate all of the probable causes.


And did you notice that Dr. Sunder said the girder was pushed off its seat
at column 79, and the report said it was pulled off its seat?

When did NIST consider zombies cutting out sections of floor?

There is absolutely no evidence that they considered that the floors started
to collapse at the 16th floor instead of the 13th, though any honest
investigation would consider that possibility.

[MNReformer]

12. Good point.

And I see no one here has come with any credible answers for you.

[AZCat]

16. Nobody gives a shit if you think the answers are credible.

Believe it or not, you're not the arbiter of credibility.

[petgoat]

17. You don't, but not everyone is as arrogant and as defensive about the official reports as you.

And few people have your gullible tolerance for official bullshit.

You wouldn't be trying to flame the newbie away, would you?

[wildbilln864]

19. PG, you nailed it. that is exactly the technique! nt

[AZCat]

21. Your blindness has led you to the wrong conclusion yet again, petgoat.

One would think that continued repetition of failure would produce a change in behavior, but I have learned that willful ignorance is a powerful motivator, especially in your case.

My tolerance for bullshit from the newbie is exactly the same as my tolerance for bullshit from you - none. Would you have me treat them differently because they are new?

[ObamaDaMan]

23. It shows truth rules the day

When one person can make sense over predictable attacks, it makes one hopeful that forums can make a difference. These JREF people remind me of the frigidity one could read but shouldn't at the Free Republic. You are to be commended for keeping your cool and not stooping down to their transparent use of ridicule.

[AZCat]

31. JREF? You're on the wrong forum, bud.

This is democraticunderground, not the JREF forums.

[ObamaDaMan]

33. closed-minded debunkers are scrolling material

JREF types have infiltrated every board that tries to have decent discussions on 9/11 and on other suppressed topics. What will you tell us next, that Cointelpro no longer exists?

I have noticed when the most notorious closed-minded debunkers have their big threads, no one bothers them. But one can see how they don't offer much more than ridicule. There's a nastiness to them that one wouldn't expect from a Democrat. The best threads get ignored until their only hope is ratcheting up the noise to signal ratio.

[AZCat]

34. Conspiracy theories require a certain disconnect with reality...

that one wouldn't expect from a Democrat either. You claim that we don't offer much more than ridicule, but most of the garbage coming from the so-called "truth movement" merits nothing else.

[petgoat]

35. You mean like a suicide pact among 19 coke-snorting porno-renting young men?

And none of them defects?

[AZCat]

36. No stranger than the Heaven's Gate suicide pact. n/t

[petgoat]

37. Bullshit. Heaven's Gate was a commune cult. They all lived together.

And how do you know none of them defected?

[AZCat]

42. Oh for fuck's sake - your argument is ridiculous (like most of them). n/t

[petgoat]

48. Big diff: a cult living together under a charismatic leader v, 19 guys scattered in 2s and 3s

Any one of them defecting could theoretically have spilled the beans.

(I say theoretically because even if they had a defector talking about the
plot, I bet the FBI would have found a way to blow the investigation.)

[AZCat]

51. Bin Laden is a charismatic leader by the accounts I've read. n/t

[petgoat]

52. Big diff: When you live with a cult leader he infantilizes you, watches you, splits up whisperers

and disciplines troublemakers and gripers.

[greyl]

57. Are there less than 19 guys behind your conspiracy speculations? nt

[ObamaDaMan]

38. A few years ago the ad hominems might have worked

The people going on "suicide missions" would never go to strip clubs. But the debunkers ignore what doesn't fit snugly into the ridiculous official explanation.

I think they have been victimized by the JREF cult. I truly have never met a Democrat in real life displaying such anti-social tendencies. The questions also remains, why if all this is such a crazy hoax, why are there meanies spending so much time here? If the "truthers" deserve ridicule, what do nasty debunkers merit? It's like those threads one finds on newspaper posts. Someone will make a comment about how inane the story or column was. Then someone will say, if you thought it was so inane, what's that say about you commenting on it? That's what is going on here with the full-time debunkers. Their protests seem very out of character for Democrats.

There was a good article recently posted here proving advanced knowledge with the put options, etc.. The debunkers avoided that thread. I notice they avoid the good threads for as long as they can. When that ultimately fails, they show up late with the ridicule. Their threads- no one posts on them or cares.

[MNReformer]

39. Nailed it. n/t

[AZCat]

40. How many people going on suicide missions have YOU interviewed?

Oh, that right - you're a conspiracy theorist. It's okay for you to make dumb-ass claims without backing them up, because you're Standing Up To The Man! And those mean people who ask for you to back them up - they're the bad ones. Whatever. :eyes:

More importantly, you're not the arbiter of who is and who isn't a Democrat. I'll protest who and what the fuck I want, regardless of your approval.

[ObamaDaMan]

43. Time for you to be humbled

"It's okay for you to make dumb-ass claims without backing them up, because you're Standing Up To The Man! And those mean people who ask for you to back them up - they're the bad ones. Whatever."


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/10/04/MN102970.DTL

Agents of terror leave their mark on Sin City
Las Vegas workers recall the men they can't forget

Kevin Fagan, Chronicle Staff Writer

Thursday, October 4, 2001


"Samantha remembers the killer settling into the crushed red velvet chair, staring blankly up at her while she undulated her hips inches from his face.

He didn't look evil, she said. Not even interesting. Certainly not like a man who would, just three months later, hijack a jet and smash it into the World Trade Center to slaughter thousands of people in a suicidal fireball.

To the 29-year-old stripper, Marwan Al-Shehhi simply looked "cheap."

"Some big-man terrorist, huh?" Samantha said this week as she took a breather from the two-dozen lap dances she bestows daily upon the lonely at the Olympic Garden Topless Cabaret. "He spent about $20 for a quick dance and didn't tip more." ....."





http://web.archive.org/web/20010916150533/http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-warriors916.story


Suspects’ actions don’t add up

By Jody A. Benjamin
Sun-Sentinel
Posted September 16 2001


"Three guys cavorting with lap dancers at the Pink Pony Nude Theater.

Two others knocking back glasses of Stolichnaya and rum and Coke at a fish joint in Hollywood the weekend before committing suicide and mass murder.

That might describe the behavior of several men who are suspects in Tuesday’s terrorist attack, but it is not a picture of devout Muslims, experts say. Let alone that of religious zealots in their final days on Earth.

Islam does not condone killing innocent people in the name of God. Nor can a devout Muslim drink booze or party at a strip club and expect to reach heaven, said Mahmoud Mustafa Ayoub, a professor at Temple University in Philadelphia.

The most basic tenets of the religion forbid alcohol and any sex outside marriage.

“It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam,” said Ayoub. “People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.” ........

[AZCat]

44. Unless you're Kevin Fagan or Jody A. Benjamin...

I don't see any interviews by you.

[ObamaDaMan]

45. Things that don't add up

This guy is provided with credible sources showing that fundamentalist terrorists were in strip clubs, drinking alcohol, etc., but then all he comes back with is more JREF doublespeak and obfuscation.

[AZCat]

46. Again - what suicide bombers have YOU interviewed?

You have provided nothing that illuminates the psychology of a suicide bomber, although this is pretty much par for the course for a CTer.

[JackRiddler]

64. Sorry, I missed something...

Did you do these interviews?

[Bolo Boffin]

65. Perhaps reading more than a couple of posts would have enlightened you.

AZCat asked ObamaDaMan, a disruptor, how many suicide bomber he or she had interviewed. ObamaDaMan posted two interviews. AZCat pointed out that ObamaDaMan wasn't the person conducting either interview. Whether AZCat conducted them or not is immaterial.

Or are you just sharing a HEURISTIC?

[PatrickSMcNally]

49. "Suspects’ actions don’t add up"

http://web.archive.org/web/20010916150533/http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-warriors916.story

-----
Suspects’ actions don’t add up

By Jody A. Benjamin
Sun-Sentinel
Posted September 16 2001

...

John Kap, owner of the Pink Pony, said on Wednesday he turned over to FBI agents credit card receipts and a Quran, the Muslim holy book, left behind by bar patrons. The night before the New York and Washington attacks, the patrons had boasted to his employees that “America’s going to see bloodshed.”
-----

Oops! We may have a problem here. It appears that all of those involved in the hijackings had left Florida already. Whatever this report was about, it clearly did not involve the people who hijacked planes on September 11, 2001.

-----
Over the next week, the men who made it to America moved into position, taking rooms in motels and hotels in or around Washington, New Jersey, and Boston. Atta, inscrutable as ever, checked out of his Boston-area hotel with Abdul Aziz al-Omari on September 10, got in a rental car, and drove to Portland, Maine.
-----
-- Terry McDermott, PERFECT SOLDIERS, p. 230.

So it doesn't seem that these people in the Pink Pony were the same ones involved in 911.

[ObamaDaMan]

50. Are you the same PatrickSMcNally....

who wrote JFK - Murder Planned In Israel?

Because that guy was praising someone named Michael Collins Piper and another guy named Salvador Astucia. Are you some kind of internet writer? Do you work for Willis Carto? I'm seeing "holocaust revisionism" and right woos left on the radar.

Hey debunkers, any comments? You never heard of this guy? He appears to be some kind of public figure.

Willis Carto is responsible for much that is wrong with the internet. We're talking about The Barnes Review and wingnutia.

If you're a different PatrickSMcNally, that's just rotten luck having the same name and using that same name on the web.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ObamaDaMan]

54. I'm not scared

If they want to ban me for looking out for their best interests, that says it all. But I have more faith in this website than that.

"Germar Rudolf was kidnapped as he was a major one-man publishing outlet of high-quality revisionist literature."


This guy just admitted to being a holocaust denier.

[ObamaDaMan]

55. PatrickSMcNally Said:

"I approve of Carlo Mattogno's revisionist research..."


http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/response-to-mattogno/

{excerpt}
"Last October I had a study published on this website which examined the Auschwitz body disposal theories of Holocaust denier Carlo Mattogno...."



PatrickSMcNally: "It's also unfortunate that was kidnapped as he was a major one-man publishing outlet of high-quality revisionist literature."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germar_Rudolf

"In 1994, Rudolf was sentenced to 14 months in prison by the district court of Tübingen because of the "Rudolf Report", as Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany. Rudolf avoided prison by fleeing to Spain, England and finally to Chicago, USA. There, he applied for political asylum, but his request was denied...."


You think DU will allow you to stay here now? They banned Minstrel Boy for voting racist in a poll. You think they're gonna allow a neo-nazi on this board?

[petgoat]

56. Finally! Do we have a defender of Kevin Barrett in the house? nt

[JackRiddler]

60. My intervention will be brief and I don't care where this goes.

However, you do have to admit that while the existence of zombies is under severe dispute within the scientific community, the consensus within the same community that cutter charges exist is in fact on an order approaching 100 percent.

[Bolo Boffin]

61. The OP specified "silent thermite cutting charges," Jack.

Where do you think the scientific community stands on that?

[LARED]

63. You are probaly correct, although the scientific community

consensus is most likely I'd guess a few orders of magnitude lower than 100% regarding the existence of "silent thermite cutting charges" as a demolition method for skyscrapers.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[BooBluePotion]

58. The way NIST explained WTC 7 collapse

it sounds as if this building tripped over its shoelaces and fell straight down in 9.5 seconds. So NYC building 7 was part slinky, accordion, and jello. I haven't witnessed worse since. After putting together several pieces of the 9/11 puzzle I've come to the conclusion that our attention should focus on constructing a September Eleventh Mythbusters Episode, one with Wargames and one without. Or we could start a country wide scrap metal drive stacking a 500,000 ton pile of concrete and steel in a tub and set it on fire with jet fuel making sure to take note of the massive explosions sure to occur 50 minutes after the Jet fuel is lit.

[Bolo Boffin]

59. "9.5 seconds"

Try reading it again. It took longer than that.

[wildbilln864]

62. Welcome to the DU dungeon Boo. nt

:hi:

[BooBluePotion]

66. Hello fellow DUer

I'm reading your south tower "lean" thread now!!:hi:

[defendandprotect]

67. Because "13" is an unlucky number . . .!!!