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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:05 PM
Original message
WaPo: Conspiracy Theories Abound On The Internet
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13059-2004Oct6.html

"Pentagon Strike" is just the latest and flashiest example of a growing number of Web sites, books and videos contending that something other than a commercial airliner hit the Pentagon.

Most make their case through the selective use of photographs and eyewitness accounts reported during the confusion of the first hours after the attack. They say they don't know what really happened to American Airlines Flight 77 and don't offer other explanations. The doubters say they are just asking questions that have not been answered satisfactorily.

The ready and growing audience for conspiracy theories about the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks has been particularly galling to those who worked on the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, the bipartisan panel known as the 9/11 commission.

"We discussed the theories," said Philip D. Zelikow, the commission's executive director. "When we wrote the report, we were also careful not to answer all the theories. It's like playing Whack-A-Mole. You're never going to whack them all. They satisfy a deep need in the people who create them. What we tried to do instead was to affirmatively tell what was true and tell it adding a lot of critical details that we knew would help dispel concerns."
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. the only conspiracy theory about 911 is the 'official' story
which makes no sense, defies the laws of physics and the principles of chemistry, and even fails to fundamentally answer basic questions about what happened.

That's what I call a conspriacy theory.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I call people who believe anything the government tells them
even if the explanation makes no sense, "coincidence theorists". You're right, most of the 9/11 "conspiracy theories" I've seen make more sense than the official reports.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Spin, spin, spin...
The question has been asked repeatedly (and been left unanswered):

Refute the physics contained in the AFCE Pentagon report. It's easy to make a claim that the crash of AAL77 into the Pentagon "defies the laws of physics". I'm asking anybody to show HOW laws of physics were defied. Just show me how the AFCE engineers got it wrong.

One thing the "official story" has in its favor is that it's a comprehensive theory. The CTists represented here have only managed to point to unanswered questions (at times, rightfully so) and concoct a few sketchy theories that have no basis in either physics or chemistry...in fact, they're not based in science of any kind.

If one really wants to question the "official theory" they should at least be able to make a coherent argument.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. here are some links...
The North Tower's Dust Cloud
Analysis of Energy Requirements for the Expansion of the
Dust Cloud following the Collapse of 1 World Trade Center

This paper uses photographic evidence -- primarily a reference photograph taken from FEMA's report -- to estimate the volume of the dust cloud that grew from the collapse of the North Tower at about 30 seconds after the commencement of the collapse. The paper then estimates the thermal energy required to produce the observed expansion in the volume of the dust cloud, based on the assumption that most of the gasses and suspended solids in the cloud originated from within the building.


http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12

----------------------------------------------------

Physical and mathematical analysis of Pentagon crash
by Gerard Holmgren
It is not in dispute that something hit the Pentagon wall and damaged it. Neither is it in dispute that AA 77 is missing. But was AA 77 involved in the Pentagon incident? This article presents an analysis of the physical aspects of the incident, and concludes with a brief examination of the issue of eyewitnesses

http://thewebfairy.com/911/holmgren/


-----------------------------------------------------

Muslims Suspend Laws of Physics!
Part I
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/mslp_i.htm



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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I realize those links you provided
sounds very convincing and articulate.


I can assure you it is complete crappolla. Tell me if any of them have any background, knowledge, skills, in the nice sounding BS they post. No peer reviews, No CV's, nadda. Punks every one of them. Easily debunked within the first one or two paragraphs.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. while I appreciate that information, it still leaves many questions
open.

I can tell you what I don't believe though...

That a few zealots armed only with box cutters successfully hijacked 4 of 4 planes, three of which flew into buildings, two of those collapsing in what can only be described as a controlled demolition.

These planes were not challenged, despite the fact that they were flying around in US airspace, and known to be hijacked.


I don't believe this story for a minute, nor have I from the beginning.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Some answers
That a few zealots armed only with box cutters successfully hijacked 4 of 4 planes,....

Pre 9/11, when a plane was hijacked (a very rare occurrence in the states) no one thought it would be used as a weapon. Historically all hijacked planes landed and the hostages were used for negotiations.

The prevailing though process was to not interfere with the hijackers as the safest course of action. Of course that way of thinking ended 9/11

three of which flew into buildings, two of those collapsing in what can only be described as a controlled demolition.

As indicated above hijacked planes were not used as weapons. As for the collapse ONLY being able to be described as a controlled demolition, let me ask, what are you basing that one? Experience, google web cowboys that sound good but are only blowing smoke out their rear-ends? what?

These planes were not challenged, despite the fact that they were flying around in US airspace, and known to be hijacked.

Was there a protocol to challenge hijacked planes on 9/10. What do you mean by challenge anyway?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. In the order you listed them:
Edited on Thu Oct-07-04 07:56 PM by MercutioATC
1) http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12

Analysis by Jim Hoffman. What are Mr. Hoffman's credentials? 911Review.com tells us ...

"Hoffman joined various 9/11 mailing lists under a number of different emails and personae, claiming at various times to be an artist, a software entrepreneur; in order to join the SPINE list at physics911.org, he claimed to be a medical doctor; falsely claiming to be an MD is a crime in some jurisdictions.

If fact, based on a careful study of our website's logs, Jim Hoffman's real job was found to be as a computer engineer for a "research institute"...

"Jim Hoffman's specialty on 9/11 is long involved technical papers that are too complex to for most people to follow (rule 2). For example, his Dust Clouds paper, makes no sense at all. The use of the ideal gas law for the expansion of the dust clouds is absurd: the ideal gas law is a Carnot Cycle / equilibrium thermodynamics calculation. It's an absurdity to do a calculation of the mean of the Boltzmann distribution of kinetic energy at thermodynamic equilibrium on a mixture of concrete and office workers that has been blasted out horizontally almost the width of the TwinTowers. Not only it is not equilibrium, it's not a gas - it's a mixture. There's no evidence the dust clouds were heated to hundreds of degrees centigrade, and even if you had the enthalpy to heat it, you could not thermally heat it in the time allowed because of the kinetics..."

http://911review.org/Wiki/911Review.Com.shtml


'nuff said.



2) http://thewebfairy.com/911/holmgren

Mr. Holmgren, the author of this and many other CT "reports" lists no credentials at all and I haven't been able to track any down myself. However, in the report you link to, he admits to not having exact figures:

"The following specifications were not directly available from any source I could find, but I calculated them based on the above figures, after measuring diagrams and photos."

"I have estimated the hole in the Pentagon wall to be about 65 ft wide, by comparing it with the height of the building which is 77 ft."

He also has no understanding of the fuel burn characteristics of aircraft:

"How much fuel was on board? A maximum possible figure can be calculated from the specifications referenced at the beginning of the article. According to the official story, the plane left Dulles, flew about 400 miles to Ohio,and then 300 back to Washington before crashing - about 15.7% of its maximum range. So if it had a full tank on departure, then the most fuel it can have had when it crashed was about 85% of its maximum capacity."

Aircraft burn fuel at a much higher rate on their climb to cruising altitude than at any other time in the flight. To assign remaining fuel load based only on the distance traveled is preposterous and shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter.

He also makes conclusions in the summary not detailed or proven in the body of the report:

"The hole in the back of the third ring cannot be explained by any means other than a missile."

"Fake wreckage has been designed and planted with the express purpose of impersonating the American Airlines colour scheme."

"Eyewitness evidence is inconclusive and fabricated eyewitness reports have been presented to try to shore up the official story."

Mr. Holmgren wrote a sloppy opinion piece, nothing more. He has no technical qualifications and is working with estimations he made by looking at photos.


I cite the ASCE report and ask you to bring me an opposing report of similar credibility and THIS is what you come up with??


ON EDIT:

I missed your third link. On initial examination we, again, have an author with no discernable credentials. In fact, his writings reveal that he has no real understanding of engineering at all. I've sent the author an e-mail that I hope will answer some questions.



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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. see response to LARED
eom
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Scources
Edited on Fri Oct-08-04 10:37 AM by BeFree
Merc claims he stands with the ASCE report, and my discussion about said report is still on the front page of this forum, yet Merc never did discuss with me his cherished report. Hmmmm...

The scources Merc cussed here, Holmgren, etal, are laymen, democracy seeking individuals who stick their necks out seeking the truth.

The scources Merc, etal, use are the Cheney's, Rice's and Rumsfeld's of the world.

I choose the Holmgren's before the bushies.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I didn't respond because your argument made no sense.
Nor did it make any difference to the factual accuracy of the report.

The sources I "cussed" here ARE laypersons...some are deceptive laypersons. If I wanted to find an uninformed, untrained person's opinion, I could just Google the subject.

I asked for a report of comparable weight to the ASCE report that could contradict the physics involved. Those three links were what was provided to me. I didn't choose them.

None of them are what I requested. If such a report doesn't exist, fine. Just tell me that. If all CTists have is a collection of opinions of "democracy seeking individuals who stick their necks out seeking the truth" who have no training and no firsthand access to data, that's fine. Just admit it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Proof...
Edited on Fri Oct-08-04 06:17 PM by BeFree
That using spell check is important...s(c)ources...geez..

The ASCE said their report was a "Preliminary Rationalization."

I asked, time and again for someone to give a definition of that term. Never got one. So here's mine:

Preliminary: before all the facts are in
Rationalization: Without all the facts being in, they rationalized with a few facts to match up with the conclusion they were reaching for.

As for the "...no firsthand access to data, that's fine. Just admit it."

That's the problem, we admit it. Your sources have some info and they work hard to keep it from us. You yourself have admitted that more info needs to be released, and we all see the 9/11 Commission report as a whitewash. Eh? No? You think the 9/11 report was complete?

Don't hand us this crap that just because a hand-picked group of people come up with a "Preliminary Rationalization" that we should all just say ok. That's bullshit and you know it.

The ASCE report you posted a link to was not a "factual accuracy" it was a preliminary rationalization.

It was a gas mixed with solids. Hahaha
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. That's completely beside the point. It's an analysis.
Refute it if you don't agree with it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. It's an analysis, I agree
Completely without any applied sound science. A mere analysis means very little.

Never before had such a situation occured so they had nothing to compare, so yes, just an analysis. A 'PR' kind of analysis.

Did they ever get past the PR? Afterall, it was you who posted the ASCE report, so I figure you'd know.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. "without any applied sound science"? You're joking, right?
Did you READ the report? "Preliminary" or not, it's entirely based on a scientific, factual analysis of the damage to the Pentagon.

What kind of "sound science" are you looking for if you won't accept a scientific analysis done by civilian civil engineers' first-hand observations?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #37
52. Have you actually read the report?
Cause if you did you would see that it was not totally a first-hand observation... time and again the report states that some damage was not observed because it had been carted away before the team got there.

But I will give you this: it is an analysis of the damage done to the pentagon. In that regard it probably was sound science.

Where they lost it was the explanation given; the "PR" of how the damage was caused. The "PR" is based on a model. The model said that it may have caused the damage but they don't know because such a thing had never been observed before. Hence the rationalizing.

That's where they slid off the sound science boat and immersed themselves in the lake of murky assumptions.

Somebody throw them a life-jacket!

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. Good Lord man, this was explained
The model said that it may have caused the damage but they don't know because such a thing had never been observed before. Hence the rationalizing.

The 'rationalization' aspect of the report means that the observed damage did not conflict with the models and simple mechanical analysis that was performed. It's that simple.

It has nothing to do with the models saying anything. The model are not intended to prove anything. They are not intended to provide PR. The only thing the models did was to rationalize (see above) what was observed and the known engineering principles used to test the observed damage

Again this is not PR. Real people trying to understand where the building performed well and where it didn't in order to build better building in the future.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. I've never claimed that it was anything else.
It does not prove that AAL77 crashed into the Pentagon. It was never meant to.

What it does, among other things, is explain in a very detailed way how the damage to the Pentagon is consistent with a 757 crash.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. What is incredible is
The whole premise to their rationalization is that the fuel concentrates itself into a ball and forced it's way through the structure in a triangular form of destruction.

Seems to me when compressed and ignited fuel expands in all directions, ie, explodes. Except for those occasions when it is a controlled explosion.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. What you're missing is that there are two forces at work here:
1) The inertia of the initial impact that breached the outer wall and carried the fuel and debris through the building damaging the interior support columns, and

2) The blast of the fuel that remained outside the building and the subsequent fires within the building.

It's a common misconception that the blast caused the interior damage. It didn't (for the most part, anyway). The report explains this pretty clearly.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #34
47. Please illustrate.

What is the supposed difference?

What for instance would you cite as an example of an investgative report that is based on sound science?

How many investigative reports are you at all familiar with?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I understand your position.
I'm just pointing out that the links provided are lay opinion and don't contradict the physics of the ASCE report.
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. This is America!
We don't need no stinking physics! ;o)


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KlatooBNikto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Like the Gulf of Tonkin being a fake incident?
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democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. "they satisfy a deep need in the people who create them"
the deep need he is referring to is the TRUTH.
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. Doubtfull
Conspiracy theory buffs a people with a void to fill. The feel pushed around or even helpless in the face of what they perceive as a hostile authority. They feel detached from "society". since their self-image doesn't seem to fit with what they observe around them they think they are special. Gifted with a vision others lack...able to see TRUTH where others seem blinded by their very role in society.
Belief in a vast conspiracy only they and others like them gives them a feeling of self importance lacking in their mundane existence. A form of "role-playing" that places themselves at the center of a spy novel or movie plot.
The internet has fed CT buffs like no other medium, allowing for unfiltered spread of "facts" that gain credibility just by their utterance on the all knowing WEB, where any self professed "expert" can publish their ideas without the usual vetting involved in other media.
So sorry, the deep need CT'ers feel is called narcissism, not truth.

But thats' just this person's opinion.
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impe Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Gee


that was deep. Thank you.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. YES!
you summed it up WONDERFULLY!!!! Welcoem to the DU :yourock:
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #23
43. Lemminghood
===============================================================
The power to fit in with one's social peers can be irresistible. To a human lemming, the logic behind an opinion doesn't count as much as the power and popularity behind an opinion.
===============================================================

Oh yes, I am a lemming, and oh so proud to be.
I am way too smart to believe in a conspiracy.
Three towers falling straight down - it all makes sense to me.
They're all just jealous of me, because I live so free.

Terrorists in hiding everywhere I cannot see.
I know they're out there cause I heard it on tv.
My paper is honest, it would never lie to me.
Oh yes, I am a lemming, and so proud to be.

The UN is so stupid, as blind as it can be.
Antiwar protestors should be hanging from a tree.
They and all the traitors - ship them off to Germany!
But me, I am a lemming, and oh so proud to be.

We saved the Iraqis, the bad guys had to flee.
Now those people love us, they're dancing with such glee.
The whole wide world should thank me, all on bended knee.
Oh yes, I am a lemming, and oh so proud to be.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
44. Conspiracy deniers have a deep void to fill.
This void is called "critical thinking." They attempt to fill this void with blanket psychobabble generalizations about those of us who have actually paid a modicum of attention to the entirety of human history.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
51. V_V_ lives, that was great
the deep need CT'ers feel is called narcissism, not truth.

Worth repeating.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
57. Right on VV
that void is called lack of evidence! As in there is no fucking evidence for your caveman theory. NONE. Not one shred.
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democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. "tell what was true and tell it adding a lot of critical details..."
what a peculiar way of stating it. First they tell the truth and then they add stuff "that we knew would help dispel concerns."

What kind of critical details? False and misleading ones?

This guy is unbelieveable.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks Bolo
Quote from your paste:
Most make their case through the selective use of photographs and eyewitness accounts reported during the confusion of the first hours after the attack.


"...the selective use of photographs..."
Ummmm, actually, that's what you OCT folks use

And

"...and eyewitness accounts reported during the confusion..."
Again, it's what ya'll who are pushing the 'Official Conspiracy Theory' use.

Thanks, Bolo, defense rests.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. "defense rests"?

If only it did.

What we've actually had instead for three years from the defenders of the terrorists is the same old endless, desperate, tedious repetition of the same old propagandist clichés, with nothing but doubt and disinformation to express for want of any actual hard evidence to prove a case to the effect that they crave.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
45. People "defend terrorists" by seeking the truth about them?
:eyes:
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. More than that.

People do the work for terrorists, with their deliberately persisant undermining of any confidence in their governmental inststitutution, but scarecley with anything but their own ignorant bickering to replace it with.

If you think you know how do better go get elected or go get a job with the FBI.

In the mean time what is the good in your attitude supposed to be?

It sucks.









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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. RH's motto: "Don't Question Authority"
If our Founding Fathers had your attitude, we'd have a state holiday to celebrate the last insane King George.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. It is nice to know
that one particular flash has
ALL THEIR KNICKERS IN A KNOT.

This one goes out to all those who served on the 911 Commission
and all those who believe them.

"You can fool some of the people all the time,
and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."
-- George W. Bush (spoken at a Washington Dinner, March 2001)

As for the overwhelming majority
of the members of the Democratic Underground:
http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/shockwave/fool_me.htm

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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Allah descended upon manhattan..
"the steel used in the core column was the strongest steel in the world. A very dense material, it weighed 3,080 pounds per linear foot."
http://www.engr.ncsu.edu/news/news_articles/wtc.html





...and turned the unholy alloy to dust.


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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Groan...
Not the DEATH RAY theory again! Or whatever.

Common sense is dead. :cry:
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carlvs Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Death Ray?!?
To me it looks like it is just dust coming off of one of the remnants of the WTC outer curtain walls as it succumbs to gravity.

But then again, I am thinking about this logically... :)
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. It is clearly not dust coming off
it has turned to dust.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Are you a reincarnation of Plague Puppy?
or did you just change your moniker?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Oh come now,
why are you asking about Plaguepuppy?
You know very well why he seldom posts here.
And you also know that MercutioATC has taken devilish glee in having personally caused the departure of at least one another highly esteemed member of the Democratic Underground.

I think that you are being very rude
by making pointed accusations like that your fellow DU members.
Why,
it would be like someone suggesting that
you have a long standing and VERY active account at "that other board."
Or someone accusing Boloboffin of being a regular over at BLOGS FOR BUSH.
Or someone asking about MercutioATC's alter-ego.

These are questions better left unanswered,
and accusations better left unsaid,
most especially coming from one who rarely presents any proof of anything.
Now, back to the topic at hand.......
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Why?
Because it was one of PP's pet theories (no pun intended) that some sort of yet undescovered technology in the form of some sort of DEATH RAY was used to turn WTC steel into dust...and that very "SPIRE" pic was the cited proof.

And boy was it cited, over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Nutty, nut, nut.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. A shame, isn't it?
Pup and Abe are MIA and we are knee deep in apologists for any and every government sanctioned report to come down the line. Ignorance is strength.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. I take issue with that statement.
I've "taken devilish glee in having personally caused the departure of at least one another highly esteemed member of the Democratic Underground"? Devilish glee?

Hell, I'd just bought him a star. I was kinda hoping he'd stick around and use it.

Anyway, how am I responsible for his departure?
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. Well thats because you are clearly not wearing...
Edited on Fri Oct-08-04 10:18 PM by vincent_vega_lives
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Don't put words in my mouth
I didn't mention anything about a death ray. Perhaps you have an explanation for steel turning to dust in mid air??
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. "How bout' Noooo...ya crazy Dutch bastard!"
No explanation needed as no steel turned to dust in any mid air here. Sorry.

(before you hit the alert...I have no idea if you are either Dutch or a bastard...It's a line from a movie)
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impe Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. Even Bad Press Is Good Press


Someone must be feeling a little heat somewhere.

As far as physics, hahahaheeehohho. No, you explained using physics how a plane crashed
into a building, exploded into tiny pieces and yet "it" was still able to punch holes through 3 concrete rings.
Ok, how about an easy one, the fire was so hot it melted the plane but left two cars and trees. Splain that with
physics and don't use the "lucky" theory.



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scoopmeister Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. This story takes on the Post article
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. thought article was too kind
Edited on Fri Oct-08-04 03:34 PM by WoodrowFan
I thoguht the Post article treated the video too kindly IMHO.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I agree

At this stage of the game there is no excuse to fail to know the other side of the story, to get a few basic facts right. It has been all over the internet for three years now.

If innocently taken in by the crap only then to realise how deliberately biased it really is I'd be more than bit angry to have been taken for such a fool.
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
46. WOW! A career in investigative journalism beckons!
If it's in the Washington Post it must be even more true! Especially after what it said about Clinton, Gore, Dean, Kerry, (and what it forgot to say about BushCo, Enron, Iraq, WMD's etc.) Most revealing are Zelikow's own words- 'We DISCUSSED the theories' and 'What we tried to do INSTEAD was to AFFIRMATIVELY TELL what was true, and tell it ADDING A LOT OF CRITICAL DETAILS that WE KNEW would HELP DISPEL CONCERNS.'
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. You forgot to mention Nixon.

n/t
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JackieO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
50. Open Letter to Philip Zelikow and the Washington Post
Open Letter to Philip Zelikow and The Washington Post

By Nicholas Levis
911Truth.org
[email protected]

NEW YORK, Oct. 7, 2004 --

Philip Zelikow, a high-level national security adviser to both Bush
administrations, acknowledges that America faces a new infectious disease: lack
of faith in the U.S. government's 9/11 Commission report.

As executive director of the freshly-retired Kean Commission, Zelikow was a
principal author of the 567-page document, which purports to explain everything
that matters about September 11th, 2001.

Sales of the 9/11 report have far outpaced those of his earlier study in
statecraft, "Germany Unified and Europe Transformed." He co-wrote that book in
1999 with one of his closest associates from the original Bush White House,
Condoleeza Rice.

Despite blockbuster sales for the 9/11 report, Zelikow tells the Washington Post
he is alarmed by the concurrent spread of "conspiracy theories" about the
attacks, which he describes as pathogens:

"Our worry is when things become infectious, as happened with the (John F. Kennedy) assassination,"
Zelikow says. "Then this stuff can be deeply corrosive
to public understanding. You can get where the bacteria can sicken the larger
body." (1)

It's too late, Dr. Zelikow. The "bacteria" are winning, and your own work is to
blame.

Perhaps the disease would have slowed if you had showed the courage to step down
as executive director last March - when your resignation was demanded by the
same Sept. 11 families who had fought the White House for 14 months to gain a
9/11 Commission in the first place.

They saw a grave conflict of interest in your having participated in White House
briefings on al-Qaeda in 2000 and 2001. You did so on behalf of the incoming
Bush administration, along with Dr. Rice, Richard Clarke and Sandy Berger, all
of whom later testified to the Kean Commission.

"It is apparent that Dr. Zelikow should never have been permitted to be
Executive Staff Director of the Commission," the Family Steering Committee
wrote.

They asked you to resign, and to take your place on the other side of the table,
as a witness to be questioned in the investigation, in public and under oath.
(2)

Perhaps this might have helped to restore credibility to a Commission that was
badly damaged a few months earlier when its most outspoken member, Max Cleland,
resigned after condemning it as a whitewash. (3)

But you ignored the families and stayed on, undeterred. You continued to steer
the Commission and its agenda. You stayed on, as one of only two staff members
or commissioners with relatively unrestricted access to White House documents.
(The other was Jamie Gorelick, a former high official in the Clinton
administration and close associate of George Tenet. Small world.)

A few weeks later, we were treated to a star turn at the hearings by your
co-author, Dr. Rice, as one of the most important witnesses before the
Commission, even as you conducted behind the scenes.

And now you worry that people won't buy what you have to say about 9/11.

Guess what? They don't.

A representative poll of eight hundred New York state residents by Zogby
International found less than 40 percent of them say they believe the 9/11
Commission report answered all of the important questions about Sept. 11. (4)

Sixty-six percent of New York City residents are therefore calling on the state
attorney general to open a new criminal investigation, one based on the 383
questions of the Family Steering Committee, most of which the 9/11 Commission
report simply ignores.

The same poll found that 41 percent of state residents believe high officials
knew about 9/11 in advance, and "consciously" allowed the attacks to proceed.
That view is shared by one-half of New York City residents - the very people who
would have the most reason to be well-informed about Sept. 11.

But 41 percent of the good people in upsate New York, a microcosm of Middle
America, also believe there was foreknowledge, as do 30 percent of the state's
registered Republicans.

What would the same poll questions reveal, if they were posed to residents of
the entire United States? Or to a sampling of the world population?

Isn't this big news? Half the people in the city where the attacks occurred
don't believe what their government has told them. Why wasn't it in the papers,
alongside the Bush-Kerry polling numbers? Shouldn't the papers be examining the
unanswered questions that make people think this way?

What have the papers given us instead?

Zelikow's worry about the spread of heretical ideas is apparently shared by the
Washington Post, which published his comments yesterday in a pop-psychology
piece by Carol Morello, analyzing the souls who have fallen prey to "conspiracy
theories" about 9/11.

Morello's first step is to define what "conspiracy theorists" think in the
narrowest possible way. She focuses on a single notion - that the crash of a
Boeing 767 does not explain the pattern of damage at the Pentagon. Her article
pretends that this is the central hypothesis for all who question the official
story of 9/11, which is untrue.

Before the Pentagon anomaly first arose as an issue among American researchers
(in Nov. 2001), a broad case for doubting the government's claims had already
been built, based in ample evidence of foreknowledge on the part of high U.S.
officials, contradictions in investigators' statements about the alleged
hijackers, and many other indications of complicity in the attacks by elements
other than the Bin Ladin networks.

This constantly growing body of evidence caused Sept. 11 families and advocates
for disclosure to lobby for an independent investigation, and ultimately became
the basis for a vibrant "9/11 truth movement." (5)

But Morello's presumption - that uncertainty about what happened at the Pentagon
is the sole issue of concern - allows her to ignore all that.

All that matters now is what makes these conspiracy theorists tick, and whether
they can be cured.

As Philadelphia Daily News reporter Will Bunch pointed out, Morello is merely
knocking down her own strawman. In a college debate, she would lose the point.
(6)

If we must psychologize rather than argue, as Morello does, then I daresay she
is in avoidance. Taking on the facts of 9/11 with an open mind would perhaps
force her, in Zelikow's words, "to repudiate much of life identity," which
relies on rejecting ideas that her society characterizes as outlandish, as
"conspiracy theory."

But what is "conspiracy theory"? Morello rounds up the usual suspects among
experts who treat disbelief in official stories as a pathology.

Michael Barkun, author of "A Culture of Conspiracy" and much-cited in these
matters, wisely informs us that "conspiracy theories are one way to make sense
of what happened and regain a sense of control. Of course, they're usually
wrong, but they're psychologically reassuring."

"Usually wrong"? Why does Prof. Barkun hedge his bets?

We need to unpack our terms. "Conspiracy theory" describes the official 9/11
report as well as it does the alternative views. The events of Sept. 11
obviously were not the product of a single perpetrator, but of a criminal
conspiracy.

Criminal conspiracy is treated in countless volumes of what prosecutors call
conspiracy law or racketeering statutes. Another word for it is organized crime.
Any attempt to explain a criminal conspiracy constitutes a theory. Prosecutors
devise theories based on initial clues, and then try to see which of them best
fit the evidence. Convictions often follow.

Morello, and Zelikow, are not concerned about "conspiracy theories" per se. They
are applying the term selectively, to include only hypotheses in which elements
of the U.S. government were themselves involved in the attacks for political and
financial gain.

If Cheney says Saddam Hussein backed the 9/11 attacks, as the vice-president did
on many occasions despite his recent protestations to the contrary, this is not
called a conspiracy theory, although it obviously involves a theoretical
conspiracy. Yet this is the most important 9/11 conspiracy theory to date,
because it was used to justify the invasion of Iraq.

If Zelikow tells us that 19 men agreed to hijack four planes and fly them into
buildings and succeeded (although those identified as the ringleaders had been
under observation by U.S. and allied agencies for years beforehand) this is not
labeled conspiracy theory, although it describes a conspiracy.

The only theories branded as "conspiracies," and thus subject to ridicule and
dismissal without examination, are those that suspect wrongdoing from a
government that did its best to hide and destroy evidence, and then sent out a
top adviser to both Bush administrations, Zelikow, to investigate what happened.

In the case of the Pentagon, the government has suppressed videotapes of the
attack taken from a nearby hotel, a gas station, highway surveillance cameras,
and the Pentagon's own cameras. At a press conference following the Kean
Commission hearings of Dec. 8, 2003, the chair and co-chair promised that this
evidence would be released, to help dispel speculation.

That evidence has not been released, and Zelikow suggests to the Post that there
is no need:

"Asked if there were unreleased photographs of the attack that would convince
the doubters, Zelikow, of the 9/11 commission, said, 'No.'"

Is it any wonder that people don't believe Dr. Zelikow? First the government
suppresses evidence. Then its chief investigator of 9/11 justifies this by
saying it would be pointless to release the evidence, and shifts the blame to
the "conspiracy theorists" who are pathologically incapable of believing the
truth.

The New Yorkers who are unsatisfied with the 9/11 Commission report are not
supposed to get answers; they are remanded to the nearest therapist.

For three years, the Washington Post has joined America's other major press
organs in ignoring the unanswered questions that cause so many people to reject
the official conspiracy theory of the 9/11 attacks.

You would think the Zogby poll results, which were at least mentioned on
washingtonpost.com if not in the newspaper itself, would finally move the Post
to file some real stories.

This isn't the place to go into everything the Post has not reported about Sept.
11 - one might start by reading the book mentioned in Morello's article, "The
New Pearl Harbor" by David Ray Griffin - but I submit that DC journalists would
normally want to explore the following question:

What about the reports that the Pakistani secret service ISI wired $100,000 to
Mohamed Atta? The ISI is often credited as the creator of the Taliban, and its
operatives have been linked to the Bin Ladin networks. ISI is also linked to
CIA, as historically close allies.

The ISI director, Mahmud Ahmed, was on a two-week visit to Washington and met
for breakfast at the Capitol on Sept. 11 with the heads of the congressional
intelligence committees, Bob Graham and Porter Goss. (7)

After 9/11, Graham and Goss oversaw the 858-page report of the congressional
joint inquiry into 9/11, in which the term ISI never occurs, at least not in the
75 percent of the report remaining after "redactions."

In all of the Post's coverage of Goss's recent confirmation hearings as director
of the CIA, wasn't the ISI breakfast worth an article?

The 9/11 Commission report fails to mention reports of a Pakistani connection,
not even to explain them away, but at least it offers this gem:

"To date, the U.S. government has not been able to determine the origin of the
money used for the 9/11 attacks. Ultimately the question is of little practical
significance... Similarly, we have seen no evidence that any foreign government
- or foreign government official - supplied any funding." (p. 172)

So who financed the attacks is of little significance. Now we know the first
rule of the Kean Commission: Don't follow the money!

Does the Washington Post agree?

The Kean Commission "discussed the theories," Zelikow tells the Post. "When we
wrote the report, we were also careful not to answer all the theories. It's like
playing Whack-A-Mole. You're never going to whack them all."

Now we know the second rule of the Kean Commission: Don't test theories. Just
whack them, if you can, and otherwise do your best to ignore them.

We shall conclude with two more of the moles that Zelikow and the Commission
refused to whack. Is the Washington Post willing to take a swing?

First: The owner of World Trade Center Building 7, Larry Silverstein,
interviewed for a PBS documentary of 2002 ("America Rebuilds"), seems to reveal
that this building's little-reported collapse on the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001
was the result of a decision to intentionally demolish the building. Isn't this
worthy of a follow-up call to Mr. Silverstein's offices? Is it possible to wire
a 47-story skyscraper for a controlled demolition within a few hours? If not,
what does this imply?

Second: The 9/11 Commission report revised the older NORAD and FAA timelines of
air defense response on Sept. 11. For more than two years, these two agencies
presented a series of conflicting chronologies to explain the failure of
standard operating procedure, under which the errant flights of Sept. 11 should
have been intercepted by jet fighters as a routine matter of reconnaissance.

Last June, the Kean Commission issued a staff statement that radically
contradicted all accounts upheld until then by either NORAD or FAA, establishing
an entirely new timeline. This is now Chapter 1 of the 9/11 Commission report.

It exonerates everyone of blame for the failures of 9/11, in keeping with the
dictum of Kean's vice-chairman, Lee Hamilton: "We’re not interested in trying to
assess blame, we do not consider that part of the commission’s responsibility."

Given the complexity of this issue, it may be asking too much of the Washington
Post to figure out if the new timeline holds water - it most assuredly does not.
(8) But if the Commission's version is right, then officials at NORAD and the
FAA were issuing false accounts for more than two years. Isn't that, at least,
an issue?

Are none of our taxpayer-financed public officials going to be held accountable
for what they say and do? Can the official story of 9/11 be changed every few
months without consequences?

Sen. Mark Dayton of Minnesota doesn't think so. At hearings on the 9/11
Commission report, Dayton said NORAD officials "lied to the American people,
they lied to Congress and they lied to your 9/11 commission to create a false
impression of competence, communication and protection of the American people."
(9)

This, at least, made the Minneapolis Tribune. But where is the follow-up? Isn't
the reality that either NORAD or the 9/11 Commission (or both) must be lying
about what happened on Sept. 11 worthy of the newspaper that was once synonymous
with investigative reporting?


References

(1) Re: "Conspiracy Theories Flourish on the Internet," Carol Morello,
Washington Post, Oct. 7, 2004
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A13059-2004Oct6?language=printer

(2) "Statement of the Family Steering Committee for The 9/11 Independent
Commission," March 20, 2004. See
http://www.911independentcommission.org/mar202004.html

(3) On the history of the Commission and its conflicts of interest, see my
earlier article "The Rice/Zelikow Connection," May 15, 2004 at
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20040527201054793

(4) "Poll: 50% of NYC Says U.S. Govt Knew," press release. See
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20040830120349841

(5) "Putting on our tin-foil thiking cap," William Bunch,
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/extra/archives/001002.html

(6) As portals to the kingdom of 9/11 research and truth movement sites, the
author recommends 911Truth.org, the New York activist site ny911truth.org, and
his own collection at http://summeroftruth.org

(7) Timeline of reports on allegations that ISI Director Mahmood Ahmed ordered a
$100,000 wire transfer to Mohamed Atta in the weeks prior to Sept. 11.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=mahmoodahmed

(8) "Analyzing the 9/11 Report, Chapter 1" by Michael Kane
http://www.williambowles.info/911/911_analysis_1.html.

For a series of links that makes clear how the official timelines of air defense
response have changed over time, see "The Emperor's New Timelines" at
http://summeroftruth.org/#timelines
An article is in the works.

(9) "Senator Dayton: NORAD lied about 9/11," following up on Minneapolis
Star-Tribune, July 31, 2004
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20040731213239607


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