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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 01:31 PM
Original message
Lime-green lies?
There are numerous photos and reports concerning the presence of lime-green pieces of metal inside and outside the Pentagon on or shortly after September 11, 2001.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:VupdqQsXfRoJ:www.r...

It is alleged that the lime-green color
is that of the primer
that was used in the manufacture of the plane.
It is further alleged that N644AA is the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.
Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the pieces of metal painted with the lime-green aviation primer came off this particular plane.

Let us examine the facts.
N644AA was built in 1991.
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=...

Now, let us examine the primer.
Please pay particular attention to the DATES mentioned in this next excerpt which is drawn from a meeting of the
South Coast Air Quality Management District.
http://www.aqmd.gov/hb/govbd.html

BOARD MEETING DATE: November 8, 1996
AGENDA NO. 2
Proposal:
Set Public Hearing to Amend Rule 1124 -
AEROSPACE ASSEMBLY AND COMPONENT MANUFACTURING OPERATIONS
Synopsis:
Proposed amendments will extend the compliance dates for several types of adhesive bonding primers, fuel-tank coatings, solid-film lubricants and primer coatings from 1997 to either 1998, 2000 or 2002 because compliant coatings have not been qualified by all major aerospace companies. In addition, the VOC limits are proposed to be decreased for dry lubricative coatings.
http://www.aqmd.gov/hb/96112a.html

So, this hearing was held in 1996.
The date that the aircraft low VOC primer rule would go into effect
was to be changed from 1997 to a later year.
Please note that N644AA had already been built and was still flying the friendly skies while these hearings were in progress.
Please also note that by 1996,
"COMPLIANT COATINGS HAVE NOT BEEN QUALIFIED BY ALL MAJOR AEROSPACE COMPANIES."
Now the South Coast Air Quality Management District has considerable clout.

BACKGROUND:
In response to South Coast Air Quality Management District's tightening of Rule 1124, Boeing looked to qualify a low-VOC (<350 g/L as mixed) primer to BMS 10-79, Urethane Compatible, Corrosion Resistant Primer.
RESULTS
In July of 2000, after much research, Boeing Materials Technology (BMT) qualified Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44 low-VOC primer system to the BMS 10-79 specification. The "-44" primer system has been in use for several years at Boeing paint hangars as an exterior decorative primer (as qualified to BMS 10-72 Exterior Decorative paint System).
<snip>
The low-VOC primer is glossier than the conventional primer, and it is more of a yellow green (as compared to the darker green color of the conventional 10-79 primer).
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...

You now begin to see the problem.

The yellow-green paint,
Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44
was qualified as a low-VOC primer system by
Boeing Materials Technology
in JULY 2000.

N644AA (the Pentagon plane) was built in 1991
which is NINE WHOLE YEARS
BEFORE
that lime-green exterior paint entered general usage as a primer at Boeing.

HOW IS IT
that a Boeing 757 plane built in 1991 using dark-green primer
is reduced to a few small pieces of metal coated with yellow green primer?

Does the lime-green debris
CLEARLY AND VISIBLY
demonstrate that something OTHER than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Got samples...
of both colors, Dulce?

"Darker" green is a relative term, after all. A comparison of the two actual paints would let us know what color is on the airplane pieces at the Pentagon.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Pseudo forensic analysis by proxy!
Whatever will they think of next?

:crazy:


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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Much of this lime-green information
is available to us at:
http://www.dragonslair.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/77/ffdd.htm...

********
Caveat Lector.
This compendium is intended to assist
honest research,
not to vouch for any testimony.

last updated August, 2004,
with compliments especially to Steve Riskus
and to google.com.
Compiled by UK resident Ron Harvey,

If anything useful to add is to be found
or if any of the links fail please do let me know.
contact: tw45ph@softhome.net
********

And,
as Bartles and Jaymes were wont to say --
we thank you, for your support.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
COSFlyer Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. military Airplanes
have that color primer...
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Adieu
I would have asked:

WHO made said military plane?
WHAT SPECS was it made to?
WHEN was it made?

But I guess we will never have the answers to those questions now.

As for the rest of you,
there are only a handful of companies in the world
that manufacture aircraft.
The US military has contracts with just about all of them.

The yellow green primer in question has been previously used an an exterior decorative paint. Check out the Boeing link.

But N644AA did NOT have lime-green exterior paint.
As a matter of fact,
N644AA probably did not have a speck of that yellow-green primer anywhere. And those who allege that it did had better be prepared to substantiate their allegations.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Check out BOTH colors
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 02:38 PM by DulceDecorum
HERE
on the Boeing website.

The low-VOC primer is glossier than the conventional primer, and it is more of a yellow green (as compared to the darker green color of the conventional 10-79 primer).
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...

That one sentence uses two shades of green to illustrate the point.



Next question please.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Neither of the font colors on that page...
...look like the color on that part.

I repeat, do you have actual samples of the colors?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. That may be due to deuteranomaly
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 11:16 PM by DulceDecorum
Deuteranomaly (five out of 100 males):
The deuteranomalous person is considered "green weak". Similar to the protanomalous person, he is poor at discriminating small differences in hues in the red, orange, yellow, green region of the spectrum. He makes errors in the naming of hues in this region because they appear somewhat shifted towards red for him. One very important difference between deuteranomalous individuals and protanomalous individuals is deuteranomalous individuals do "not" have the loss of "brightness" problem.
From a practical stand point though, many protanomalous and deuteranomalous people breeze through life with very little difficulty doing tasks that require normal color vision. Some may not even be aware that their color perception is in any way different from normal. The only problem they have is passing that "Blank Blank" color vision test.
http://colorvisiontesting.com/color2.htm

Take it from me, BOLOboffin,
THERE REALLY IS a difference between those two colors.
And the primer in the photo above is practically yellow.
(Which is the same color as the ribbon.)
But then again, here is a source better suited to your taste.

Evidence That A Boeing 757 Really Did Impact the Pentagon on 9/11
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:7VB7JT8LQVoJ:www.a...

Hopefully,
THAT should satisfy you that the low VOC primer
and the coating on the Penta-debris
is the one and same color.

Or are you claiming that the debris is DARK GREEN?
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. and how exactly did you do that
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 11:28 PM by reorg
beating me by four minutes :-)

(I guess the others just aren't looking ...)
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gbwarming Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. The font colors aren't the real primer colors
Some webhead just picked #006600 and #999900 to represent the colors on the web page.




<b><font face="ARIAL, GENEVA, SANS-SERIF"><font size=-1><font color="#999900">The
low-VOC primer is glossier than the conventional primer, and it is more
of a yellow green (as compared to the </font><font color="#006600">darker
green color</font><font color="#999900"> of the conventional 10-79 primer).</font></font></font></b></li>
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You mean like this?
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 04:37 PM by LARED
The low-VOC primer is glossier than the conventional primer, and it is more of a yellow green (as compared to the darker green color of the conventional 10-79 primer).
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. N644AA used DARK GREEN PRIMER
The pieces of Penta-debris are NOT dark-green.
That lime-green paint was not used as a primer untl AFTER July 2000.

The lime-green debris did NOT come from N644AA.

Font color or no font color,
that FACT remains the same.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Perhaps I missed it, but
How do you know this is true?

That lime-green paint was not used as a primer until AFTER July 2000.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. In July of 2000,
after much research, Boeing Materials Technology (BMT) qualified Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44 low-VOC primer system to the BMS 10-79 specification. The "-44" primer system has been in use for several years at Boeing paint hangars as an exterior decorative primer (as qualified to BMS 10-72 Exterior Decorative paint System).
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...

That means that the lime-green low VOC paint
was NOT qualified for use
in June 2000
or at any time before that.

N644AA was built in 1991.
Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44 low-VOC primer system was NOT qualified at that time.

Can someone please explain the lime-greeness of the Penta-debris?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. A few comments
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 09:57 PM by LARED
Notice this statement

The low-VOC primer is glossier than the conventional primer, and it is more of a yellow green (as compared to the darker green color of the conventional 10-79 primer).

Read it carefully. There was a conventional primer used previously that was a darker green color.

Notice this statement

Boeing Materials Technology (BMT) qualified Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44 low-VOC primer system to the BMS 10-79 specification. The "-44" primer system has been in use for several years at Boeing paint hangars as an exterior decorative primer (as qualified to BMS 10-72 Exterior Decorative paint System).

Note the words exterior decorative primer. Think about it

Also how do you know there were no other suitable primers?






How do know the paint
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. EPIPHANY at last.
LARED says:
Notice this statement
The low-VOC primer is glossier than the conventional primer, and it is more of a yellow green (as compared to the darker green color of the conventional 10-79 primer).
Read it carefully. There was a conventional primer used previously that was a darker green color.

YES YES YES
THAT DARKER-GREEN PRIMER WAS USED IN THE MANUFACTURE OF N644AA.
Dark-green primer was used in the manufacture of Flight 77.
Lime-green paint was NOT used in the manufacture of Flight 77.
The pieces of debris on the Penta-Lawn are coated with LIME-GREEN paint.

LARED says:
Notice this statement
Boeing Materials Technology (BMT) qualified Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44 low-VOC primer system to the BMS 10-79 specification. The "-44" primer system has been in use for several years at Boeing paint hangars as an exterior decorative primer (as qualified to BMS 10-72 Exterior Decorative paint System).
Note the words exterior decorative primer. Think about it

YES YES YES
The lime-green paint was first used as an EXTERIOR DECORATIVE PRIMER.
American Airlines planes DO NOT HAVE yellow-green EXTERIOR DECORATIVE PRIMER.
American Airlines uses VERY LITTLE decorative paint on the exterior of its planes.
And NONE of it is any shade of green.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #32
41. Well I tired.
I suppose it's my fault. I just can't get the energy up to explain the painfully obvious.

Enjoy yourself.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. DO NOT HAVE yellow-green EXTERIOR DECORATIVE PRIMER?
Really?

With what then do they prime their external livery?



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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Who cares?
The exterior paint survived the crash.
That famous piece of debris with the lettering "proves" that.

We are trying to figure out
where the lime-greeness of the other metal bits came from.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Dulce
Most primer on large Aircraft is lime-green or chrome-green in color.

It doesn't matter if Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44 low-VOC primer was approved or not, the preceeding primers in use were still mostly yellow-green in color.

L-
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. except that the quoted Boeing site states otherwise


and other than that, we have just your word ... did you work for Boeing at one time?
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. I worked around General Dynamics
But the processes were similar and driven by the same factors (the customer wanted things such as paints and primers to be consistent across their fleets.). (Note: the primary customer being the US military).

For the most part the only change in primers and paints have been to accomodate the changing EPA regulations for lower VOC and heavy metal usage. This has not affected the color scheme much as any severe changes here would have caused a significant change to other related materials.

Check my comment below and you will see that Boeing was using a yellow-green primer to protect the fuselage skin back in 1983.

L-
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
97. Indeed, Mr. Lithos
There are sites where persons spend many happy hours attempting to determine the precise colors of primers formwerly and currently in use, and are unable to achieve much agreement on shades. Not only have all such in use for decades in the U.S. been yellowish greens, but there is not any great consistency in the hue of differing batches. The color, after all, is not of much importance, since it will generally be in places not usually visible, or covered with other paints for the final finish; its purpose it to provide protection for the metal against oxidation, and other debilitating chemical reactions.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #29
42. That's not what is says.
It says

Note:
This does not supersede drawings or specification requirements. This information shall not be used for production, test, or acceptance processes.

N.B.

Not for acceptance processes.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. READ THE WHOLE THING
Mission Statement
The purpose of the Supplier Environmental Website is to:

Enhance communication between Boeing Supplier Management and Procurement and its suppliers;
Make environmental information more accessible to suppliers;
Provide suppliers information on new environmentally-friendly materials and processes;
INFORM SUPPLIERS OF RECENT SPECIFICATION CHANGES;
PROVIDE SUPPLIERS WITH POLLUTION PREVENTION OPTIONS;
Provide suppliers with a means for obtaining timely responses to questions of a technical nature;
Provide suppliers with a means for obtaining technical support for resolving problems of larger scope;
Provide links to other web sites of possible interest; and
Provide suppliers with a means to give feedback on the website itself.
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...

With this in mind,
(INFORM SUPPLIERS OF RECENT SPECIFICATION CHANGES)
let us have another GOOD LOOK at the snippet that was dredged up.

SUBJECT: Low-VOC BMS 10-79 Qualification
Purpose: This page is designed to provide information on efforts to qualify a new, low-VOC corrosion-resistant primer to the BMS 10-79 specification.
REFERENCE:
BMS 10-79 Urethane Compatible, Corrosion Resistant Primer, Revision L, 11-JUL-2000
BMS 10-79 Qualified Products List, Revision A, 19-APR-2001
BMS 10-72 Exterior Decorative Paint System, Revision U, 06-JUN-2000
BMS 10-72 Qualified Products List, Revision D, 6-NOV-2001
BAC 5882 Application of Urethane Compatible Primer, Revision H, 13-JUL-2000
NOTE:
This does not supersede drawings or specification requirements. This information shall not be used for production, test, or acceptance processes.
BACKGROUND:
In response to South Coast Air Quality Management District's tightening of Rule 1124, Boeing looked to qualify a low-VOC (<350 g/L as mixed) primer to BMS 10-79, Urethane Compatible, Corrosion Resistant Primer.
RESULTS:
In July of 2000, after much research, Boeing Materials Technology (BMT) qualified Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44 low-VOC primer system to the BMS 10-79 specification. The "-44" primer system has been in use for several years at Boeing paint hangars as an exterior decorative primer (as qualified to BMS 10-72 Exterior Decorative paint System).

Comparision Between Low-VOC and Conventional BMS 10-79 Primer:
There are several differences between the new, low-VOC "-44" primer and the conventional (higher VOC) 515x349 primer from PRC-DeSoto:
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...

Basically,
Boeing is saying telling the suppliers that they are switching from the dark-green PRC-DeSoto primer (already approved and used as a primer)
to the lime-green Dexter Aerospace paint (already approved and used as an exterior decorative primer.)

RH, old boy,
BMS stands for Boeing Materials Standards.
Hard to see how your comment makes sense in that light.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. A qualification is not a specification.
The NOTE obviously distinguishes between the two.

"This does not supersede drawings or specification requirements."

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. What is
IS?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
61. An interesting wreckage piece
I have put on line the photo above on this web site, writing that it was characteristic and that any person having seen it during manufacturing or maintenance should be able to recognize it. I was surprised to have found nowhere somebody arguing that the presence of this piece of wreckage on the pentagon's lawn proved the presence or the particular type of plane which contains it.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/pages-en/fct-sl...
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. that seems to be a picture with the yellow green primer:
stumbled across this link, where someone is actually trying to prove the opposite, claiming "This image shows the light green primer used on the primary structure components in the 757 (Boeing uses the same yellow primer and the same green primer on almost every single part of every single 757 and 767 built)." You prove him wrong. Like others here, I am in awe, really, of your patience, your wit, and above all your amazing ability to find stuff most would not even think of looking for.





http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thank you
ever so much for posting that photo.
And your kind words.
Watch out for the Sisters.
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PerpetualYnquisitive Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
75. Props to CatHerder
Edited on Sat Sep-25-04 05:31 PM by PerpetualYnquisitive
Let us examine something that has been overlooked by the those who have looked at these specific pictures.





Look closely at the piece found at the Pentagon. How many oval holes are there in that rim? Well we can start with the verticle hole at the top and count around to the hole at the bottom, there are 3 holes between the 12 O'clock and the 6 O'clock positions going clockwise, therefore there must also be 3 between the 6 O'clock postion and the 12 O'clock position continuing clockwise. 1 at 12 O'clock and 1 at 6 O'clock.

Simple math states that 3+3+1+1= 8 oval holes

Now examine the picture of the 757 rim still attached to the plane. Let's count the the oval holes visible here. Starting with the one that is highlighed by the green outline as 12 O'clock, we can quite easily see that there are 4 oval holes between the 12 O'clock and 6 O'clock positions. Symmetry applies here too, so we can do another quick equation,

4+4+1+1= 10 oval holes

Therefore this is just one more smoking gun that proves the OFT (Official Fairy Tale) is total bullshit, the rim wreckage is NOT from the phantom 757.

Thank you, come again. (Said in Apu's accent)

If the rim don't fit, you must acquit.
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gbwarming Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Some 757 gear photos showing 8 and perhaps 9 or 10 slots
Edited on Sat Sep-25-04 08:46 PM by gbwarming
Like the primer, it is entirely possible that there have been several different wheels available over the production run or that various airlines order different options.

http://members.tripod.com/~aravm98/reference/757LGindex... 8 slot
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/046853/L / 8 slot
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/034715/L / ?
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/031358/L / 8 slot
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/314767/L / 9? slot
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/038738/L / 9? slot

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PerpetualYnquisitive Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. Thank you for posting those links...
I have found some better shots at this site .

These pictures are of AA 757-223s, the same model that is alleged to have hit the Pentagon. I will be going through them tomorrow to see if the rims on these planes have the 8 oval hole design or 10 oval hole or possibly a combination of both.

Will post results then.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #75
92. The 757 uses 10-hole wheels on the nose gear and 8-hole wheels
Edited on Thu Sep-30-04 06:15 PM by MercutioATC
on the main gear (at least on some planes).

http://members.tripod.com/~aravm98/reference/757LGindex...
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #75
98. Unfortunately, Mr. Ynquisitive
Edited on Fri Jan-21-05 03:19 PM by The Magistrate
You would seem to have been mis-led by perspective and obscuring debris in drawing your conclusions from the wheel in the wreckage.

The three holes showing on the right of the picture do not take up the entire range from the twelve o'clock to six o'clock positions. The second hole is not at the three o'clock position, as it would have to be for symmetrical arrangement of three holes, but rather positioned at about two-fifteen. You will note that it is not on the same line as the second hole down from the twelve o'clock position on the left of the picture, but in an oblique angle towards it. The lower portion of the wheel is obscured by debris, which covers nearly five hour positions of the clock, and is more than enough space for a hole at six o'clock, along with two more on the left and one more on the right.
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PerpetualYnquisitive Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
13. Dulce, do you have any info on the paint on this..


That is a painted piece of debris, yet AA doesn't paint the exteriors of their fleet. They leave a nice buffed aluminum that reflects anything near it.

Like this

and this

and this too.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. They do paint their exteriors
With both a colored stripe as well as several areas with grey/green matte paint. This piece with the red with thin white outline matches the type of paint scheme for the name "American" on the first half of the plane.



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PerpetualYnquisitive Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Close but no cigar
Look at the material that is not part of the logo or stripe, I can see the buffed aluminum reflecting the yellow lines from the runway in the pic that you have posted. The main body of their planes are NOT painted.

That piece of debris on the pentagon lawn should reflect the colour of the grass adjacent to it, yet it does not, therefore it is not a buffed aluminum surface but is painted surface.

I agree that they paint their logos and their 'racing' stripe on their planes, but the rest of the surface around the logo and stripe is not painted.

Look at the word American in the pic that you posted Lithos, care to highlight exactly where this grey/green matte paint is next to that logo for I cannot see it.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The only paint on that piece is the red and white.
The rest of that piece is unpainted.

The way it's laying, it's not reflecting the grass. It's reflecting the sky.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Look again
Your assumption that AA does not paint their planes is erroneous. The area ABOVE the blue stripe is indeed painted (notice the lack of reflection. The color is distinctly due to a blue-grey matte paint on the upper half of the plane). It is only the area below the stripe that is not-painted.

If you examine the photo, you will see where paint has pulled directly up revealing the primer underneath. This is the same color as being shown in the small strip to the upper right.

See also:







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PerpetualYnquisitive Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Pic 3 tells a different tale.
Look closely at the third link in my post, how does the catwalk above the plane get reflected so clearly if that is painted?

Notice the reflection goes right past the logo to the blue stripe.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. The same reason the blue stripe in your Pic 3
Also carries part of the same reflection There is an overcoat applied.

Look carefully at your pic 3, you will notice the bottom half of the aircraft is indeed unpainted and differs from the top half and shows the top half is indeed painted.

L-
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Side note:
Boeing construction line. Note the primer color in use.





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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. American Airlines CEO says:
You have probably noticed that unlike other carriers, the exteriors of Americans aircraft are mostly unpainted. Way back in the 1930s, the leaders of this airline chose polishing over painting, and that decision produces benefits to this day. At that time, the Douglas DC-3 developed specifically for American was the workhorse of our fleet, and the original decision not to paint that aircraft was mostly about looks. While other carriers planes sported fancy, painted-on designs, Americans leaders preferred the elegant look of the DC-3s unadorned aluminum skin.
The decision not to paint our fleet turned out to be a smart one, for reasons that go well beyond the cosmetic. For one thing, flying unpainted aircraft saves us a lot of money in fuel expense, since not adding paint makes an aircraft lighter and lighter aircraft burn less fuel. On top of that, chipped or peeling paint can increase a planes wind resistance, reducing fuel efficiency. Because it takes less time to polish than to strip and repaint, the decision not to paint has also saved us a lot of labor and materials expense over the years. And since it is easier to find corrosion or dents when there is no paint covering an airplanes surface, there is a safety benefit. Finally, polishing instead of painting is a good choice for the environment, because stripping paint can create a waste disposal problem.
Unfortunately, we cannot avoid paint altogether. We paint those parts of our airplanes that are made of composite materials, as well as areas particularly prone to corrosion. In these instances, we use coatings low in volatile organic compounds almost exclusively, so the paint is as environmentally friendly as possible. .......
GERARD J. ARPEY
President & CEO
American Airlines

The EXTERIORS of American's aircraft are mostly unpainted.
The INTERIORS however are a different matter,
as can easily be verified
by looking at BOTH of the photos posted above.
The photographs above MUST have been taken AFTER July 2000
since,
the lime-green primer entered usage on Boeing assembly lines AFTER July 2000.

Now, about that Penta-debris......
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Interesting, but...
The photographs were not taken after July 2000

http://boeingmedia.com/images/one.cfm?image_id=99

Taken Dec 1997

http://boeingmedia.com/images/one.cfm?image_id=104

Taken 1999

Both show the Lime Green primer in question.

And this article from 1983:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/business/757/part... /

After the come-together, Boeing 757s, their metal skins covered with a yellow-green protective coating, are assembled on a line with six stations. AT each station certain tasks are done to the interior and exterior: wiring the cockpit, installing the galleys, hanging the engines ...

As an old mechanical engineer with experience in both the aerospace and construction industries, the lime green primer for protection has been around for years.

As for the paint scheme on AA's 757 fleet, Starting at the bottom it is polished Aluminum, then red, then white, then patriot blue, then sky blue. Has been this way for years. I should know, I live here in Dallas and have seen them MANY times. Arpey, who is doing a great job as a new CEO, made those comments in 2003 about the fleet in general, not specifically about the color scheme of the 757.

L-



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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. hm, interesting article
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 12:22 AM by reorg
but it would appear to me that this is in reference to the outside (which on AA planes appears to be mostly uncoated), but who knows.

In these pictures I cannot see one bit of green anywhere, these structures are either uncoated yet or the color is grey, don't you think?

on edit: I can make out some green at the tail in the second picture, in the first the color is beige rather than grey, but green? Not.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Green airplanes
A debate, I do not mind.
The TRUTH is what I am after.

After the come-together, Boeing 757s, their metal skins covered with a yellow-green protective coating, are assembled on a line with six stations. AT each station certain tasks are done to the interior and exterior: wiring the cockpit, installing the galleys, hanging the engines ...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/business/757/part... /

NOTE:
A YELLOW GREEN PROTECTIVE COATING.

"Commercial airplane skin panels arrive at Boeing covered with A TEMPORARY PROTECTIVE COATING TO PROTECT THE METAL FROM DAMAGE OR CORROSION DURING THE MANUFACTURING AND ASSEMBLY PROCESSES," said Bill Dill, decorative paint manager in Commercial Airplanes' Everett, Wash., factory. "This is where the term 'GREEN AIRPLANE' comes from; it references the green protective coating and implies that the product is unfinished, awaiting our handiwork."
Paint shop employees first use a hand-sander on a completed airplane's previously primed surfaces, then tackle the green skins. They then mask off areas that need protecting, such as landing gear and engines, and apply detergent to the airplane to remove the coating. Next THEY WASH THE AIRCRAFT WITH A FIRE HOSE SPRAYING WATER HEATED TO 100 degrees Fahrenheit (38 C) TO REMOVE THE GREEN COLOR. THIS LEAVES THE NATURAL SILVER-COLORED ALUMINUM SKINS.
Once the jet is clean, painters sand or abrade the surface of the panels to ensure the primer coat adheres to the metal. They apply primer and then mask off areas of the jet and paint it in various stages, depending on the process for each customer's livery. They apply hand-detailing or decals last, prior to preparing the plane for delivery to the customer. The time needed to complete a paint job depends on the size of the airplane and the complexity of the livery. For example, while painting a typical livery on a 737 requires two to three days on a two-shift operation, the Qantas design required six days on a two-shift operation.
http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2003/novem...

NOTE:
They then mask off areas that need protecting, such as landing gear and engines, and apply detergent to the airplane to remove the coating. Next they wash the aircraft with a fire hose spraying water heated to 100 degrees Fahrenheit (38 C) to remove the green color. This leaves the natural, silver-colored aluminum skins.

To give its readers a better understanding of the Delivery Centers' processes, Boeing Frontiers recently followed a WestJet 737-700 as it moved from the final assembly line in Renton, Wash., to the delivery center in Seattle.
On Day One, the plane rolls off the assembly line and goes to Renton Field where it begins phase one, called preflight. During this seven-day phase, the 737still sporting THE PROTECTIVE GREEN COATING FROM MANUFACTURING AND ASSEMBLYwill undergo fueling tests, engine runs, airworthiness inspections, avionics testing, preflight servicing and its first test flight, called the Boeing 1 flight.
During this first flight, Boeing test pilots record the performance of the airplane in the form of "flight squawks" that document how well the equipment performs and operates. These "flight squawks" become the blueprint for the remaining delivery process. In this case, the WestJet 737 had a successful Boeing 1 flight with few noted anomalies and was given a "Sold" stamp to move on to the next phase.
On Day Eight, the plane begins phase twothe paint process. The plane is flown to Boeing Field, near downtown Seattle, and placed into one of four paint hangars. There, THE PROTECTIVE GREEN FINISH IS REMOVED and the plane's exterior is sanded, cleaned, taped, primed and then painted to WestJet's unique design requirement.
http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2004/febru...

NOTE:
During this seven-day phase, the 737still sporting the protective green coating from manufacturing and assemblywill undergo fueling tests, engine runs, airworthiness inspections, avionics testing, preflight servicing and its first test flight, called the Boeing 1 flight.

NOTE:
On Day Eight, the plane begins phase twothe paint process. The plane is flown to Boeing Field, near downtown Seattle, and placed into one of four paint hangars. There, the protective green finish is removed and the plane's exterior is sanded, cleaned, taped, primed and then painted .....

That thar greenry in them assembly photos ain't the primer.
At least not according to the two Boeing articles above.
The PDF file below indicates that
the INTERIOR primer is NOT the the EXTERIOR primer.
And all them thar interior primers is what we are after.

Actocoat 1501 GC has a dry coating thickness of approximately 4 mils when dip-coated. So far, this new material has been able to remove substantial amounts of paint. Even when the one - inch square holes in the grates are completely plugged, the microsphere coating removes all the paint. PAINTS TESTED WITH Actocoat 1501 GC INCLUDE A CORROSION INHIBITING INTERIOR EPOXY PRIMER (USED ON ALL PARTS EXCEPT FOR EXTERIOR SKINS), a temporary protective coating, a peelable coating, a corrosion inhibiting adhesive primer, a structural adhesive primer for metal-to-metal assemblies, and a structural adhesive primer for acoustic panels.
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...

Here are a few shots of a green airplane.
http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?regsearch=N6046...

And were off. Its a short journey to the gates of Airbus, where we stop again, for another security inspection. Anybody not wearing their bright red badge will be removed from the bus and denied access. Luckily everybody is.
As the coach snakes through the complex, we see planes on all sides. Some are painted in the clients livery, some still wear THE PROTECTIVE GREEN COAT all Airbuses get during construction.
<snip>
Now we are on a gangway 16m above ground level, looking down on an A340-600. Still covered in the PROTECTIVE GREEN ANTI-CORROSIVE LAYER which makes it look like military aircraft, it is one of six aircraft in this massive assembly hall. On a huge trolley behind the aircraft sits its empennage, ready to be slotted in when work restarts on Monday. Another plane is having its wings attached. Once again, our guide has all the facts at her fingertips: there will be exactly 5,000 screws to attach the wings, 2,500 for either side.
http://www.copyunlimited.com/_content/Airbus.htm

Now, you mentioned something about the 757s.
I am under the impression that ALMOST ALL of American Airlines planes
carry the same colors in the same configuration.

September 1970
American inaugurated its first overseas routes in 1970 with 707 service to the South Pacific. American discontinued the routes by 1975 when it traded for Caribbean from Pan Am. Caribbean destinations began in March, 1971 with the purchase of Trans Caribbean Airlines. AA had also just launched transcon 747 flights in September 1970. Two years earlier American, in 1968, American launched its current livery.
http://www.airchive.com/SITE%20PAGES/TIMETABLES-AMERICA...

Boeing has built over 1,000 757s and American Airlines has quite a large fleet of them.
I have seen nothing to indicate that the 757s would be painted any differently from the other planes owned or operated by American Airlines.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. They coat the planes green at the factory
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 05:45 AM by Lithos
And use a primer coating afterwards. Both coatings are made essentially of the same material - zinc chromate (and more recently epoxy chromate) which is necessary to prevent corrosion of the aluminum.

Yes, even the Alclad skin Boeing prefers and the anodized aluminum other manufacturers use will corrode which is why most airlines paint their planes.

While American prefers to buff their planes wherever possible to "save" money, this is long been considered an unacceptable practice by the industry especially for planes which travel extensively along the coasts or internationally as it does not protect against salt to the same degree as paint.

Because of such accidents as the explosive decompression of Aloha Airlines 737 over Hawaii where the loss of the upper fuselage skin was determined to be caused by corrosion, American has been painting the cabin areas up to the pressurized boundaries for those planes in their fleet which are at risk due to the routes they fly - because of their rotation schedule, this represents essentially their Airbus and 7x7 fleets. The concern is the stress caused by repeatedly pressurizing the cabin seems to exacerbate any issues of microstresses caused by corrosion along with any scribe marks left by mistrained flight crews.

As you also pointed out:


Unfortunately, we cannot avoid paint altogether. We paint those parts of our airplanes that are made of composite materials, as well as areas particularly prone to corrosion. In these instances, we use coatings low in volatile organic compounds almost exclusively, so the paint is as environmentally friendly as possible.


And wherever they paint, the principle choice of primer will be a chromate based material which is going to have a greenish/yellow tint.

All of the pictures have shown a difference in color that shows the top fuselage is NOT a polished aluminum look.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. PRC-DeSoto
manufactured several primers
that were certified to the BMS 10-79 specifications.
Pull up this pdf and scroll down to 637-658.
http://www.ppg.com/prc-desoto/pdf/psgcoat.pdf

Boeing names one particular PRC-DeSoto primer.

Comparision Between Low-VOC and Conventional BMS 10-79 Primer:
There are several differences between the new, low-VOC "-44" primer and the conventional (higher VOC) 515x349 primer from PRC-DeSoto:
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...
So, we are looking for the PRC-DeSoto 515x349 primer.

Look at lines 654 and 655.
You will see the SPECIFICATION, PRODUCT and DATE ISSUED
654 BMS 10-79 0515X349XXBM 12/23/70
655 BMS 10-79 0515X349XXIK 12/23/70

It appears that these PRC-DeSoto primers
were approved to that standard on 12/23/70.
We already know that Boeing stopped using
the darker-green PRC-DeSoto 515x349 primer
on or around July 2000.
We also know that N644AA was built in 1991.

The debris on the Penta-lawn was NOT DARK-GREEN.
http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

The low-VOC primer is glossier than the conventional primer, and it is more of a yellow green (as compared to the darker green color of the conventional 10-79 primer).
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...

The debris on the Penta-lawn was YELLOW GREEN.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. The real question is what primer was on the plane when it crashed
To make your point you would also have to prove that AA had or had not kept a 10 year old coating system on the plane. Most planes are repainted when they receive an overhaul.

My point is to show you using the available evidence on the Net that the color is and has been indicative of a primer which I feel I have. Only recently has the aircraft coatings industry gotten away from Chromium based paints which is where the green tint comes. I also have shown you that AA does indeed paint their cabin area fuselage.

Unless you can show your credentials as either an employee of Boeing, another major aerospace manufacturer, an airline employee with direct access to the planes, or a member of an aerospace coatings manufacturer, then you are doing more than trying to argue semantics with nothing more than information posted on the Internet.

Unfortunately people can find anything you want on the Internet, valid and invalid. So unless you are able to personally understand and segregate the good from the bad information, most of what you present will be a matter of opinion.


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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. AviationDB - Aircraft Report for 644AA
This report is generated from the NNumber, SDR, NTBS Accident, and FAA Accident/Incident subject areas in the AviationDB database. It is just a sample of the data available and the uses that it can be put to. Much more information is available at http:\\www.AviationDB.com .
Although we try our best to provide accurate and complete data, we do not guarantee that the data is error free or complete. This report is the property of AviationDB. It may be freely distributed, but must not be altered in any way.
The report is in HTML. If it displays incorrectly, use the "Text" option to generate the report.

Aircraft Information
No Aircraft Reports Found
Service Difficulty Report (SDR) Information

SDR 1
Report Date: 1993-06-07 Occurrence Date: 1993-04-02
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: EEL CONNECTOR Aircraft Location: CABIN FLOOR
Condition: DEFECTIVE
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: A3060698101 Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Emergency Lighting
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc: NEVER
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
NO TEST
Remarks
DFW - DURING OVERNIGHT CHECK, EMERGENCY FLOOR LIGHTS AT MID GALLEY INOPERATIVE. REPLACED CONNECTOR AT MID GALLEY. SYSTEM GROUND CHECKED NORMAL OPERATION.

SDR 2
Report Date: 1996-05-09 Occurrence Date: 1996-03-12
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: DOOR PAN Aircraft Location: L4 DOOR
Condition: GOUGED
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Passenger/Crew Doors
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
OTHER
Remarks
L4 DOOR PAN AFTER BLENDING GOUGE IS BEYOND SRM LIMITS. REPAIR PER MRB 757-752. (M)

SDR 3
Report Date: 1996-05-09 Occurrence Date: 1996-03-12
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: DOOR PAN Aircraft Location: L1 DOOR
Condition: GOUGED
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: 141N63023 Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Passenger/Crew Doors
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
OTHER
Remarks
L1 DOOR PAN AFTER BLENDING GOUGE IS BEYOND SRM LIMITS. REPAIR PER MRB 757-751. (M)

SDR 4
Report Date: 1996-05-09 Occurrence Date: 1996-03-12
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: DOOR PAN Aircraft Location: R4 DOOR
Condition: CORRODED
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: 146N6201 Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Fuselage, Miscellaneous Structure
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
OTHER
Remarks
DOOR PAN AFTER BLENDING GOUGE IS BEYOND SRM. REPAIR PER MRB 757-748. (M)

SDR 5
Report Date: 1996-05-09 Occurrence Date: 1996-03-12
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: DECK PLATE Aircraft Location: BS 1681
Condition: COORODED
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: 146N5300 Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Fuselage Floor Panel
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
OTHER
Remarks
DECK PLATE HAD CORROSION REMOVED AND AREA LEFT IS BEYOND SRM ALLOWABLE LIMITS. REPAIR PER MRB 757-754. (M)

SDR 6
Report Date: 1999-07-23 Occurrence Date: 1999-06-19
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: SOCKET Aircraft Location: CABIN
Condition: CORRODED
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Emergency Lighting
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
NO TEST
Remarks
MIA - DURING OVERNIGHT MAINTENANCE, RIGHT OVERWING EMERGENCY EXIT LIGHT INOPERATIVE. CLEANED RIGHT OVERWING EMERGENCY EXIT LIGHT SOCKET. SYSTEM GROUND CHECKED NORMAL OPERATION. (M)

SDR 7
Report Date: 1999-10-22 Occurrence Date: 1999-08-17
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: VALVE Aircraft Location: RT ANTI-SKID
Condition: DEFECTIVE
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: S274T12010 Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Brake Anti-Skid Section
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: APPROACH
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
OTHER
Conditions
WARNING INDICATION
Remarks
DFW - FLT 1597 - EN ROUTE FROM ORD-MEX, RIGHT HYDRAULIC FLUID QTY DECREASED TO .56 WHILE LEFT HYDRAULIC FLUID QTY INCREASED TO 1.35. RIGHT HYDRAULIC PUMPS DEACTIVATED AND AIRCRAFT LANDED DFW WITHOUT INCIDENT. REPLACED LEFT AND RIGHT ANTI-SKID SHUTTLE VALVES. SYSTEM GROUND CHECKED NORMAL OPERATION. (M)

SDR 8
Report Date: 2000-01-15 Occurrence Date: 1999-11-18
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: LIGHT Aircraft Location: CABIN
Condition: INOPERATIVE
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Emergency Lighting
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
NO TEST
Remarks
DFW - DURING OVERNIGHT MAINTENANCE, FORWARD EMERGENCY EXIT FLOOR PATH LIGHT INOPERATIVE. REPLACED FORWARD EMERGENCY EXIT FLOOR PATH LIGHT STRIP. SYSTEM GROUND CHECKED, NORMAL OPERATION. (X)

SDR 9
Report Date: 2000-02-12 Occurrence Date: 1999-11-18
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: LIGHT Aircraft Location: CABIN
Condition: INOPERATIVE
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Emergency Lighting
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
NO TEST
Remarks
DFW - DURING OVERNIGHT MAINTENANCE, EMERGENCY EXIT FLOOR PATH LIGHTS IN MID GALLEY INOPERATIVE. REPLACED EMERGENCY EXITFLOOR PATH LIGHT STRIP IN MID GALLEY. SYSTEM GROUND CHECKED NORMAL OPERATION. (M)

SDR 10
Report Date: 2000-07-14 Occurrence Date: 2000-05-15
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: CONNECTOR Aircraft Location: CABIN
Condition: BROKEN
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Emergency Lighting
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
NO TEST
Remarks
DFW - DURING OVERNIGHT MAINTENANCE, EMERGENCY EXIT ESCAPE PATH LIGHT AT SEAT 28H INOPERATIVE. REPAIRED CONNECTOR AT SEAT 28H. SYSTEM GROUND CHECK NORMAL OPERATION. (M)

SDR 11
Report Date: 2000-07-14 Occurrence Date: 2000-05-12
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: LIGHT Aircraft Location: CABIN
Condition: INOPERATIVE
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Emergency Lighting
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
NO TEST
Remarks
ORD - DURING OVERNIGHT MAINTENANCE CHECK, FOUND EMERGENCY EXIT ESCAPE PATH LIGHT AT SEATS 29DEF INOPERATIVE. REPLACED EMERGENCY EXIT ESCAPE PATH LIGHT AT SEATS 29DEF. SYSTEM GROUND CHECK NORMAL OPERATION. (M)

SDR 12
Report Date: 2001-01-06 Occurrence Date: 2000-09-13
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: WIRE Aircraft Location: CABIN
Condition: SHORTED
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Light System Wiring
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
NO TEST
Remarks
JFK - DURING OVERNIGHT MAINTENANCE, EMERGENCY EXIT FLOOR PATH LIGHTS FROM ROW 15D THROUGH 24D INOPERATIVE. REPLACED EMERGENCY EXIT LIGHT WIRE. SYSTEM GROUND CHECKED NORMAL OPERATION. (M)

SDR 13
Report Date: 2001-01-12 Occurrence Date: 2000-09-18
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: WIRE Aircraft Location: CABIN
Condition: CHAFED
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Light System Wiring
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: CRUISE
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
OTHER
Conditions
OTHER
Remarks
ORD - FLT 599 - EN ROUTE ORD-PHX, DURING CRUISE, EMERGENCY EXIT LIGHT AT 17D ILLUMINATED. AIRCRAFT CONTINUED TO PHX ANDLANDED WITHOUT INCIDENT. REPLACED EMERGENCY EXIT LIGHT ASSEMBLY AT 17D. SYSTEM GROUND CHECKED NORMAL OPERATION. (M)

SDR 14
Report Date: 2001-02-28 Occurrence Date: 2000-12-19
Aircraft Name: BOEING Aircraft Group Code: 757
Aircraft Manufacturer Num: 24602 Engine: Propeller:
Aircraft Type Certificate: A2NM Engine: Propeller:
Propeller Manufacturer Name: Model:
Carrier Code: AALA Operation Type: A
Failed Part Information
Name: SOCKET Aircraft Location: CABIN
Condition: INOPERATIVE
Manufacturer Num: Name: Model:
Manufacturer Part Num: Total Time: 0.0 Since Overhaul: 0.0
Jasc Desc: Emergency Lighting
Segment Desc: AIRFRAME
Severity Desc:
Stage Desc: INSP/MAINT
Submitter Desc: CARRIER
Procedures
NONE
Conditions
NO TEST
Remarks
DFW - DURING OVERNIGHT MAINTENANCE, EMERGENCY EXIT PATH LIGHT AT SEAT 21DEF INOPERATIVE. REPLACED EMERGENCY EXIT LIGHT SOCKET AT SEAT 21DEF. SYSTEM GROUND CHECKED NORMAL OPERATION. (M)


NTSB Accident Information
Accident Occurred On: 2001-09-11
Narrative: ACCP
This event is being investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation as a criminal act.

FAA Accident/Incident Information
Accident/Incident Occurred on: 1995-11-02
LOST OIL AND OIL PRESSURE ZERO NR1 ENGINE. DIVERTED TO BNA. METAL IN THREE CHIP DETECTORS.

Accident/Incident Occurred on: 2001-09-11
(-23) AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT #77 WAS HIJACKED BY TERRORISTS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM IAD EN ROUTE TO LAX. THE AIRCRAFT WAS THEN CRASHED INTO THE PENTAGON. THE AIRCRAFT WAS DESTROYED, ALL PERSONS ON BOARD PERISHED.

AviationDb - End of report for 644AA

Although we try our best to provide accurate and complete data, we do not guarantee that the data is error free or complete. This report is the property of AviationDB. It may be freely distributed, but must not be altered in any way.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. This is an exception report
And has nothing to do with normal maintenance operations.

L-
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Please describe
the normal maintenance procedures
during which a plane has its interior stripped down to the primer.

So far,
I haven't found any NORMAL maintenance procedures that fit that description.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. Painting
Is usually done as part of the major overhaul such as when the engines and other major flight systems are worked on as part of scheduled maintenance. What you were seeing were specific problems (burned out lights, etc.) which required work outside of normal scheduled maintenance.

L-

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #58
64. Six to eight years
With environmental issues in mind Sprayavia is an advocate of using high-solid paints, as opposed to the conventional solvent-based products as the former produce less VOC (Volatile Organic Compounds) emissions. They also recycle all waste paint to remove and then re-use the solvents. Commenting on the latest generation of paints to Aviation News, Managing Director, Bob Stephens, said The new generation paints have come a long way over the last few years, and as long as the airlines maintain the paint work and clean it on a regular basis, the airline can expect up to two years of extension to the current life of an aircrafts paint finish, due to the increased durability of these products. He also pointed out the tough conditions that the paints have to withstand, ranging from ...baking temperatures one minute and freezing cold at 38,000ft the next experiencing high levels of ultraviolet attack. The paint also has to be very chemical resistant and flexible to withstand the damage caused by the aircraft flexing, hydraulic fluid, engine oil and de-icing fluid. Despite all these factors a freshly painted livery will be able to last on average between six to eight years, though a large number of factors, such as the climate the aircraft is operating in, can affect this.
http://www.airpictorial.com/pages/paintingPerfection.ht...
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Eyewitness T.Carter says:
She saw parts of the fuselage of an American Airlines plane, a Boeing 757 plane. She identified the charred wreckage in several ways. SHE RECOGNIZED THE POLISHED ALUMINUM OUTER SHELL, AN UNPAINTED SILCER THAT IS UNIQUE TO AMERICAN AIRLINE PLANES, and the red and blue trim that is used to decorate the fuselage. She saw parts of the inside of the plane, which she easily identified since she flew and worked in them for years. Upholstery, drapes and carpeting she could identify by both color and design. The soft carpeting and padding of the inner walls had a cloud design and color she recognized from American Airline planes, though it has since been replaced. The blue coloring of drapes and carpet were also specific to the 757 or 767 larger planes, and were not used on the smaller planes. Seating upholstery also matched the AA 757 planes, including the blue color, tan squares and hints of white.
She saw other parts of the plane and engine parts at a distance but they were familiar to her. She did not see any galley supplies, which she would have recognized as well, nor any jump seats. All the parts were charred but colors were still visible. She also saw charred human bones but not any flesh or full body parts.
One area of fuselage had remaining window sections and the shape of the windows, curved squares not ovals, was also distinct to the 757's she had flown. She also saw parts with the A/A logo, including parts of the tail of the plane. Smaller A/A logos and "American" logos are also on the planes and she saw parts of those. One website shows pictures of wreckage inside the building, including sections of the fuselage with BRIGHT LIME AND YELLOW COLORING, which is distinctive to Boeing parts. My friend confirmed this, HAVING VISITED A BOEING PLANT WHERE SHE SAW THE BRIGHT COLORS ON THE PRODUCTION LINE MARKING THE INSIDE OF FUSELAGE PARTS. SHE DID NOT NOTICE THIS COLORING AT THE SITE, BUT THE PHOTOS SHOW IT IN SOME PIECES OF THE PLANE.
She spent approximately 15 minutes in the crash area looking at parts of the wreckage, all of which she recognized as coming from a Boeing 757 American Airline plane, the same planes she flew regularly. She did not see any rubber, only metal pieces of fuselage, engine parts and sections of the inside of the plane.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/PAandAAF7...

T is a dedicated researcher who has worked on both JFK and MLK cases with Judge Joe Brown, among others. Her first report was on her efforts to weigh the infamous Minox camera held in the National Archives. The effort to weigh the alleged CIA spy cam "found" at Oswald's residence is to discover what if anything may have been used to seal and/or fill the interior portion of the Bic lighter sized camera. The camera has been impenatrable. As it turns out the camera does weigh more than the 200 or more weighed by T. Carter. On the second night of the conference gave an update on the Martin Luther King case related to securing of the rifle everyone believes is NOT the real assassination weapon and how Denny's (!) has taken up sponsorship of the MLK Assassination museum.

Researcher T Carter explains her relation to flight 93 which slammed into the Pentagon September 11th, 2001.
The final day of the event, Ms. Carter related her connections to the September 11th case. She is a She is a flight attendant and one of her usual routes was Flight 77 - the plane that went into the Pentagon.
T Carter was a regular stewardess on that flight and had witnessed one of the alleged hijackers doing a pre-911 test flight.
She said that she believes the plane actually went into the Pentagon, contrary to a popular internet theory. Her friends bodies and aircraft wreckage were recovered from the scene of the impact which she visited. Other revelations included privy knowledge of her flight attendant friends personal cell phone call to her mother. During the call the flight attendant friend to the mother that there were SIX hijackers - contradicting the number claimed by the Government "authorities." She implored the audience to research September 11th for this and other "discrepancies."

Listen to her ...

JFK panel lecture (minox camera update)
MLK panel lecture (rifle/museum update)
September 11th 2001 panel lecture
http://www.parapolitics.info/copa/copa2002gallery/index...
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. As I said
The bottom, unpressurized portion of the fuselage is buffed aluminum, which she would recognize. No problem there.

But you keep arguing that the plane didn't hit the building, but your own story says:

T Carter was a regular stewardess on that flight and had witnessed one of the alleged hijackers doing a pre-911 test flight.
She said that she believes the plane actually went into the Pentagon, contrary to a popular internet theory.


And gives proof as to why...


So, what is it?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
77. The top fuselage is indeed painted
on American EAGLE planes.
http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/ourPlanes/ourPlanes.j...
And American EAGLE planes,
for the most part
do NOT belong to American Airlines.

But the Boeing 757 known as N644AA or Flight 77
did NOT have paint on the top of the fuselage.
At least, not according to these photos.
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=...
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Who cares?

The exterior paint survived the crash.
That famous piece of debris with the lettering "proves" that.

We are trying to figure out
where the lime-greeness of the other metal bits came from.


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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. It's primer
Most parts on a plane have a primer on them to prevent corrosion. This primer until very, very recently (2003/4) consisted of either a zinc chromate or an epoxy chromate primer. Both are usually green though there are yellow zinc chromate primers. Other common primer colors are grey and yellow though truthfully I've seen more greenish tints than not.

Also involved is a green wash primer such as DOD-P-15328 spec primer which is also involved with Aluminum. Basically it provides a positive adhesion to the aluminum for the rest of the paint to stick. It also provides some corrosion protection.

Sometimes the industry will use a green cosmoline product again for scratch and corrosion protection.

L-

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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Sometimes....? Is there no top coat?

I know something about paints but not what Boeing do.

Primers as a rule are less oily than an overcoat and thus somewhat vulnerable without a more resilient finish.

In any case the color of a primer is likely to be a wild goose chase because the color per se is definitely not critical nor especially relevant to low volatility. Green Chromate primers appear to be green usually because a black is mixed with the Chromate which by nature is yellow. If then the color of paint batches from month to month or from year to year were to happen to vary I'd not be at all surprised, and what exactly Boeing were using more than a decade ago, for as far as I have yet seen, is anybody's guess.



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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. You obviously
have never heard of Mil Specs (Military Specifications.)

Rest assured
that the batches are formulated to the same exact specifications.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Is that supposed to imply
that a Military Specification applies to a civilan Boeing and would therefore preclude any change of color?

If so you are very welcome to cite the actual specification alongside an explanation of why the color is critical.

You will thereby, prsumably, prove conclusively that your original thesis is invalid; Boeing could not possibly have changed the color of the primer at any time.

:toast:
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. No, it is not meant to imply that.
However,
it rather does appear as if you are miffed
because a certain Ron Harvey was forced to withdraw his webpage?
Go compare MIL-P-23377 to BMS 10-79.
Come back when you are done.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. If you had a point

you'd presumably make it.







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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Bluff called.

Paints described as conforming to MIL-P-23377

are variously desribed as green

http://www.alliancecoatings.com/downloads/PISHEETS/4835...

or yellow

http://www.spectrumcoatings.us/MIL-P-23377E.html


so what then has any of this got to do with color?



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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Turn turn turn
Background:
In response to South Coast Air Quality Management District's tightening of Rule 1124, Boeing looked to qualify a low-VOC (<350 g/L as mixed) primer to BMS 10-79, Urethane Compatible, Corrosion Resistant Primer.

Results
In July of 2000, after much research, Boeing Materials Technology (BMT) qualified Dexter Aerospace's 10P20-44 low-VOC primer system to the BMS 10-79 specification. The "-44" primer system has been in use for several years at Boeing paint hangars as an exterior decorative primer (as qualified to BMS 10-72 Exterior Decorative paint System).

The low-VOC primer is glossier than the conventional primer, and it is more of a yellow green (AS COMPARED TO THE DARKER GREEN COLOR OF THE CONVENTIONAL 10-79 PRIMER).
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environme...

The Penta-plane was built several years before
the South Coast Air Quality Management District tightened Rule 1124.
The low VOC primer is yellow green.
The Penta-debris is coated with yellow green primer.
The primer used before 2000
(when N644AA was built) was darker green.
There are no photographs of darker green aircraft debris on the Penta-lawn.

There is no getting around this.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. Answer please.
you chose to invite to spend time on MIL-P-23377.

Why? What has MIL-P-23377 got to do with paint color? As usual, all this is nothing but a complete waste of time, is it not? MIL-P-23377 obviously does not preclude the use of either a yellow or a green pigmentation.

If the best you've got is to reiterate the link to the Boeing page you may as well forget it. The original mention "that lime-green exterior paint entered general usage as a primer at Boeing" gives the game away. A primer, by definition, is not an exterior paint.

The Boeing page was obviously published to respond to environmental issues. The color description is incidental, with no reference to anything Boeing may or may not have used long ago.

You have failed to show that Military Specifications have got anything at all to do with the "exact specifications" of any paint color.

If then the color of paint batches from month to month or from year to year were to happen to vary I'd not be at all surprised, and what exactly Boeing were using more than a decade ago, for as far as I have yet seen, is anybody's guess.


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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. RH
if you choose to believe
that the primer or paint color and formulation varies from batch to batch,
then go right ahead.

Nobody else here,
or at Boeing,
agrees with you.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #89
90.  I did not choose to believe.

I surmised reasonably, having asked what the relevance of MIL-P-23377 is possibly supposed to be.

In view of the lack of an answer to that, nor any better information, I conclude that this is indeed a complete waste of time.

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gbwarming Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. The funny thing about mil-p-233377 section 3.6.1.1 Type I primers
(this totally irrelevant to the primers Boeing might or might not use for it's commercial airplanes, as RH and others have pointed out, but kind of amusing.)

The color is NOT controlled by the spec. The pigment types are, but the color section reads "... shall be the color of the natural corrosion inhibiting pigments used, with the exception that tinting to a darker shade is permitted to improve hiding power."

http://www.trans-chem.com/Specs/C23377G.pdf


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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. And all the Penta-debris
is the same exact shade of lime-green.
Do you suppose that
this happened because all the primer was formulated to the same exact specifications?

I wonder what Boeing has to say about the coloration of a certain low VOC primer that it began using in mid 2000.
Could someone here remind me what the coloration was of the primer that Boeing was using before mid 2000?

The Penta-plane WAS a Boeing, was it not?

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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. No. and Yes
That is exactly the point.

Contrary to your moot presumption, with regard to specifications and color the paint is not formulated to the same exact specifications.

And if you were not at the scene and if you do not have an actual sample to examine and if you no you have no information as to what shades Boeing happen to have used previously, and if you know nothing whatsoever about any topcoat that may have been employed then your opinion of the shade of lime green is of no use or interest whatsoever.

:eyes:

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. American Airlines and paint.
PerpetualYnquisitive, that particular piece of Penta-debris has been the subject of MANY a heated discussion here on the Democratic Underground.
And elsewhere.
http://www.rense.com/general31/yourcom.htm
I will get back to this later.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
56. The American Airlines website has photos
of their own planes.

Click on the links
to see whether the planes are painted or polished on the top.
http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/ourPlanes/ourPlanes.j...

Now,
PerpetualYnquisitive,
tell me,
is the top fuselage of the 757 painted light blue?
Yes or No.
Is the top fuselage of the 757 painted at all?
Yes or No.

Here is another link on that particular piece of debris.
http://www.the-movement.com/Pentagon/mysterious_piece_o...
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PerpetualYnquisitive Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. From the pics that I have looked at,
the top of the fuselage of the 757 is not painted light blue.

the top of the fuselage of the 757 is not painted at all.

The reason the top of the fuselage looks different from the bottom may be due to longterm exposure to direct sunlight, as we all know that longterm exposure to direct sunlight fades/changes colours.

I am not saying that I know for 100% fact that they are not painted, just to my eyes they are not. Those jets look like those 'Silver Bullet' campers that I see on occasion, the campers are just missing the wings and tail, highly polished aluminum with a clear coat finish.

To paraphrase a lawyer of some infamy, "If the paint don't fit, you must acquit."

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Silverbird
While many airlines utilised the white roof in their aircraft livery, one of the trade marks of American Airlines livery was a highly-polished overall aluminium finish.
http://www.die-cast-models.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath...

The entire former TWA MD-80 and 757 fleets now sport the American Airlines "Silver Bird" livery, after Kansas City workers stripped, polished, and painted them. The Silver Bird livery consists of red, white, and blue striping on brilliant polished aluminum, with the American Airlines logo on the tail and the company's name on the fuselage. The former TWA 767s will not be re-branded, as they will be retired next year.
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:FUs0C0HNsBMJ:www.f...
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. You now begin to see the problem?

No.

What is the problem?

A primer was qualified in 2000. So what?

Is there anything at all to show that the primer was not already in use before 2000? I see nothing on the Boeing page to say so.

Is there anything at all to show that no sort of overcoat was used?

A primer by definition is an initial coating beneath a topcoat, to resist corrosion, to improve adhesion or to bestow a color effect upon a semi transparent overcoat. If the topcoat is opaque you wont even see the primer.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. The other, he said nay
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 10:20 PM by DulceDecorum
http://www.amherst.edu/~rjyanco/literature/mothergoose/...

Carlton Burkhammer was bussed to the Pentagon with other firefighters from Fairfax County Fire and Rescue Station 14.
Within the building he spotted lime-green pieces from the interior of the plane
http://www.dragonslair.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/77/ffdd.htm...

The Pentagons thick walls rendered the firefighters radios useless. But it turned out not to matter: Burkhammer and the other recon men didnt find any survivors to radio about. Youd see bodies. Youd roll em over and theyd be dead, Burkhammer says. He spotted people entangled in the wreckage, but they had all succumbed to the initial blast or the ensuing fire. The air was hot and smoky. Sprinklers poured water down onto the floor. The halls were dark and the men searched with flashlights. It was a war zone, Burkhammer says. Some parts of the building, there was nothing left intact. Ceilings had fallen and ventilation systems dangled down. The left side of the building was more unstable than the right, where they could access all five floors. BURKHAMMER SPOTTED LIME-GREEN PIECES FROM THE INTERIOR OF THE PLANE. You could tell where the plane had gone because of the destruction of the steel and concrete beams, he says. He could see evidence of the Pentagons renovations: exposed I-beams read MAY 2000. After a frustrating hour, the recon teams stumbled back out of the building. Lugging the heavy gear through the heat and smoke had taken a toll. One man was sent to the hospital for dehydration. We were spent, says Burkhammer. And they were dejected. We did not find any live people, he says. Even the search dogs seemed to feel the loss. You can see it on the dogs face. The dogs are almost as depressed as the guys are, Burkhammer says.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3069699 /
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
45. So.......?

A lime green could be because of a primer, an overcoat, both or something else.

You may as well be reading tea leaves.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #45
57. All your base
are belong to us.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #31
65. So we have a witnesss of bodies, lots of bodies
How do the "missile" or "small airplane" :tinfoilhat:ers explain this away?
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PerpetualYnquisitive Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Could you please provide some links.
I have searched several dozen articles from a Google search and can not find one reference that says the dogs found any bodies/parts at the Pentagon. I am not saying that they did not, I simply cannot find any references that say that they did.

http://www.petroglyphsnm.org/covers/rescuedogs.html
http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/radio/more/beyond....
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/09/15/rescue.dogs.91... /
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1554236.stm
http://www.savannahmagazine.com/archive/k9heros.shtml
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2375424&BRD=1...

These articles mention bodies found at the WTC but none mention bodies found at the Pentagon.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Just Google "body parts Pentagon"...results below:
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PerpetualYnquisitive Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Thanks for the links Merc
Sorry, I should have been abit more specific in my request, I am looking for articles that claim the dogs found bodies/parts, the first 3 links don't mention dogs at all and the last says this:

"The construction crew was made up of civilians who were hired just for their carpentry skills. They often found bodies. After the room was secured, the people with the dogs went in to find the bodies."

No reference to any dogs actually finding a body or parts of one.

Again I am not saying that the dogs did not find any bodies at the Pentagon, I would just like some first hand accounts for reference.

I will go through more of the articles under your Google search terms.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Here:
http://www.ukfssart.org.uk/files/pentagon%20report.PDF

On the bottom of page 11.

You're right. There are multiple of mentions of dogs being used but very few cites actually claiming that the dogs located anything...it's just sort of implied.

This report does make reference to dogs actually "pinpointing the location of victims buried in the rubble" at the Pentagon, though.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. I gotta hand it to you DD
Only you could have brought this issue to light. I had no idea you are an aeronautical coating expert.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. The aeronautical coating experts say:
All exterior airplane paint can be classified either as decorative, which includes an operator's markings, or as protective, which is light gray in color. Protective paint is used in certain areas to prevent corrosion, and it is used on all composites to prevent erosion and moisture ingress. These composite areas include wing fairings, control surfaces, radomes, tail cones, engine nacelles, and large portions of the empennage (tail section). For this reason, even polished airplanes use a considerable amount of protective paint.

Decorative paint schemes generally use a minimum of 3 or 4 colors and a maximum of 14 or 15 colors applied to the upper half of the fuselage and to the vertical stabilizer and rudder. These schemes are also applied to the horizontal stabilizer and elevator on Douglas-designed airplanes. A base color is applied first, followed by stripes, lettering, and logos. Polished airplanes forgo the base color, restricting the use of decorative paint to stripes, the operator's name and registry number, and logos.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_05/t...
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
62. Paint changes colour when it burns
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Is that lime-green paint burned?
Do you see ANY signs of burning whatsoever?
WHERE?

If you are claiming that
the paint on those pieces of debris
changed color when burned
then you have some serious explaining to do.

Firstly,
the color on ALL those pieces of debris
is the same EXACT even shade of lime-green.
That means that the fire burned ALL those pieces
at the EXACT same temperature
and in the exact same way.
Otherwise we would see charring -THERE IS NONE-
and we would see uneven coloration.
Considering that the various pieces came from totally different parts of the plane,
I fail to see how your argument is possible.

Secondly,
if the lime-green color is all that is left of the paint job, then that can only mean that the outer paint on the exterior of the plane was burned off.
Now we know for a fact that American Airlines does not paint the main fuselage of its planes.
However,
the presence of primer on exterior parts
and the fact that this primer is ALWAYS painted over on exterior parts,
means that the entire outer coat of paint must have been burned completely off
thus exposing the primer.

Let us therefore take a look at the properties of exterior paint.

The water-based paints used in the automotive industry are not suitable for airliners as the demands made on aircraft paint are too great: it must be able to withstand temperature fluctuations from +70C to -60C in a matter of minutes as well as intensive UV radiation when cruising at high altitudes. Since an aircraft's wings oscillate in flight and the airframe expands due to the increase in cabin pressure, the paint must also remain elastic in extremely cold conditions. At the same time it must be able to withstand rain, hail, ice crystals and grains of sand.
http://213.198.75.194/en/html/magazin/technik_macht_mod... /

So the paint that was placed on top of the primer
could take all that abuse
and come out looking great
but it disappeared without trace
when confronted by the Amazing Penta-fire.

What does it take to remove aircraft paint
when said plane
is not jousting for parking on the Incredible Penta-lawn?

When an aircraft arrives for a repaint, the airline will have already decided whether it is to be sanded down to the first top-coat or chemically stripped back to the metal. The latter is the more expensive option but has a number of benefits. Firstly, it allows the aircraft skin to be inspected for corrosion and secondly will help reduce the weight of the aircraft by removing the old paint. If an aircraft has been stripped, the next process is a steam clean to remove any residue of the stripper. All the production joints on the aircraft will then be resealed, followed by a wash with solvents as a final preparation. The next stage of the process is to apply either a Filliform Corrosion Resistant primer or alochrome pre-treatment, which is the first layer of protection for the airframe. Next is the intermediate primer of either polyurethane or epoxy, the latter is a yellowy green colour, which will normally be allowed to dry overnight. After this the aircraft will be rubbed down to remove any imperfections and a tack cloth used to pick up any remnants.
http://www.airpictorial.com/pages/paintingPerfection.ht...

So far,
we have discussed the EXTERIOR of the plane.
What about those parts which are the SAME LIME-GREEN COLOR
and are pieces of the INTERIOR of the plane?

Why are those pieces
the EXACT same shade as the EXTERIOR
my-paint-was-totally-burned-off
pieces of debris?
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Colors also change when paint dries.
A high solid paint may appear to be a different color simply because it is a high solid paint, while the pigment content is identical.



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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. And WHERE is this wet paint located?
Which piece of Penta-debris is still WET?

WHERE on ANY photograph posted ANYWHERE do you see WET lime-green primer?

Speak up then!
Don't be shy.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Wet paint usually comes in a can.
How then do you know whether or not the description you rely upon refers to dry paint or wet paint?

The attempt to identify paint colors by proxy, from photographic images is the most risibly far fetched proposition yet to be seen around here. Did you ever attempt to render photographic colors accurately? The result depends upon the light and the photograhpic medium as much as it does upon your target color. The impression of color is notoriously illusory. The human perception of it is relative rather than absulute. Without two samples to compare, side by side in the same light and context there is no valid pretension to accuracy.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Are you recanting?
Edited on Fri Sep-24-04 11:34 PM by DulceDecorum
Burkhammer spotted lime-green pieces from the interior of the plane.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3069699 /

Review the facts
Size of 757 matches the initial size of hole in the building - somewhere between 13 and 16 feet (757 is 13 feet wide/high)
Rims found in building match those of a 757
Small turbine engine outside is an APU
Same engine has been clearly stated to not match a Global Hawk engine
Blue seats from 757 laying on ground in photos Part of "American" fuselage logo visible in more than 1 photo
Engine parts photographed inside match a Rolls-Royce RB211
STRUCTURAL COMPONENTS PHOTOGRAPHED IN WRECKAGE MATCH BOEING PAINT PRIMER SCHEMES
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

RH says:
The attempt to identify paint colors by proxy, from photographic images is the most risibly far fetched proposition yet to be seen around here. ....... The impression of color is notoriously illusory.

Fireball, Fuel, Debris and Damage
WITHDRAWN
http://www.dragonslair.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/77/ffdd.htm...



"Did I do that?"
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Does that intend to imply

that I had something to do with the authorship of abovetopsecret.com?

I did not.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
95. Kick
:kick:
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. Dulce, are you going to kick ALL of your old threads?
...just wondering...
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