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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-16-07 07:09 PM
Original message
Michel Meiring, the CIA and false flag ops in the Philippines
Here are some new entries posted to the 9/11 Timeline in the last day or two. I'm highlighting them here because I think this case of Michael Meiring needs to be better known. It seems even the alternative media has nearly competely missed it.

May 16, 2002: CIA Operative Hurt While Posing as Terrorist Bomber in Philippines?

US citizen Michael Meiring is suspected of being a CIA operative after injuring himself in an explosion in his own hotel room. Meiring claimed a grenade was thrown into his room, but a Philippine government investigation determined the center of the blast came from an assembled bomb kept in a metal box owned by Meiring. Hotel employees said Meiring told them for weeks not to touch the box while cleaning the room. Additionally, an ID card with his picture on it found in his room lists him as an officer in the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF), a Muslim rebel militant group. (KHOU-TV, 12/2/2004) In the two months prior to this explosion in his room, there were several other other explosions in the same region, killing 37 people and injuring 170 more. (Minda News, 5/30/2003) In 2003, a group of Philippine soldiers will mutiny, in part because they believe these bombings were done with the secret approval of the Philippine government, and not done by rebel groups as the government claims (see July 27-28, 2003). A number of Philippine officials speculate Meiring may have been a CIA agent. Those who knew him said that he referred to himself as a CIA agent, but said it stood for “Christ In Action.” He had frequently visited the Philippines for at least ten years. (Minda News, 5/30/2003) He claimed to be a treasure hunter, and had a company called Parousia International Trading (in Christian theology, Parousia is a term for the second coming of Christ). He was said to be very well connected in the Philippines, being visited in his hotel room prior to the explosion by congressmen, a governor, and military officials. He was also connected to militants in the MNLF, Abu Sayyaf, and other groups. One source who knew him said that earlier in the year he had predicted a series of bombings and that his predictions “always came true.” (Minda News, 5/31/2003) Meiring was already a major suspect in the production and distribution of counterfeit US Treasury bills. Over the last few years, billions of dollars worth of fake US Treasury bills were confiscated in the region. (BusinessWorld, 5/27/2002) Four days after the explosion, FBI agents take him out of the hospital where he was recovering from severe burns and amputations. The Financial Times will later report that he returns to the US and is handed over to the CIA. (Financial Times, 7/12/2002; Guardian, 8/15/2003) The Guardian will later comment, “Local officials have demanded that Meiring return to face charges, to little effect. BusinessWorld, a leading Philippine newspaper, has published articles openly accusing Meiring of being a CIA agent involved in covert operations ‘to justify the (recent) stationing of American troops and bases in Mindanao.’ The Meiring affair has never been reported in the US press.” (Guardian, 8/15/2003) In 2004, a Houston TV station will trace Meiring back to the US, where he still lives, despite the Philippine government wanting him to be extradited to face a variety of charges related to the explosion (see December 2, 2004).

December 2, 2004: Possible CIA Operative Posing as Muslim Militant and Wanted Overseas Is Discovered Living in US

A treasure hunter suspected of being a CIA operative is discovered living in the US. In May 2002, US citizen Michael Meiring accidentally blew himself up in a Philippines hotel room, and ended up losing both of his legs. He was mysteriously whisked back to the US amidst media reports suggesting he was a CIA operative posing as a Muslim militant bomber (see May 16, 2002). On June 19, 2002, the chief of the Philippines’ National Bureau of Investigation vowed that Meiring would be brought back to the Philippines to face charges since he appeared to have returned to the US, and the Philippines and the US have an existing extradition treaty. (Minda News, 6/1/2003) On December 2, 2004, a Houston TV station will discover that Meiring is living in Houston, Texas. They examined court documents about him and learned that earlier in 2004 he changed his last name to Van De Meer. The Philippine government confirms that they issued an arrest warrant for Meiring and are still looking for him. Terrorism expert Ron Hatchett asks, “How is he able to walk around freely within our society using the name that is on the arrest warrant for him?” Meiring is reached by phone in California. His only on the record comment to the reporter who discovered him is, “If this harms me in any way, you will find my power then, and you’ll find out who I am. But I will come for you. You harm me I will not let you off the hook.” (KHOU-TV, 12/2/2004) In early 2005, it will be reported that Meiring may not get extradited back to the Philippines because the Philippine government cannot produce a picture of him. (Mindanao Times, 3/23/2005) However, previous media reports claimed that a picture ID of Meiring was found in his hotel room after the explosion there. The ID lists him as an officer in the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF), a Muslim rebel militant group. (KHOU-TV, 12/2/2004) Since then, there have been no reports of Meiring being successfully extradited.

Here are a couple more that seem relevant:

July 27-28, 2003: Philippine Soldiers Hold Brief Mutiny, Fearing Their Government Is Staging Terrorist Attacks

A group of Philippine soldiers mutiny, claiming they are trying to prevent the Philippine government from staging terrorist attacks on its own people. About 300 soldiers, many of them officers, rig a large Manila shopping mall and luxury hotel with explosives, evacuate them, and then threaten to blow up the buildings unless President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo and other top Philippine leaders resign. After a twenty hour siege, the soldiers surrender and no one is hurt. Their leaders are jailed for mutiny. While Arroyo remains in power, other top leaders resign, including the county’s defense minister, police chief, and military intelligence chief. (Guardian, 7/28/2003; Guardian, 8/15/2003) The mutineers had a number of grievances. They complain:
- Senior military officials, in collusion with President Arroyo, are secretly behind recent bombings that have been blamed on Muslim militant groups. They specifically claim that a series of bombings in March and April 2002 in the southern city of Davao that killed 38 people were actually false flag operations. (Their allegations could be related to a May 2002 incident in which a US citizen staying in the area was injured when a bomb he was making exploded in his hotel room; see May 16, 2002. The Philippines media suggested that he was a CIA operative taking part in false flag operations.)
- The government is selling weapons and ammunition to rebel groups such as Abu Sayyaf even as these groups fight the government. The Guardian will later note that local newspaper reports describe the military’s selling of weapons to rebels as ‘an open secret’ and “common knowledge.” (Guardian, 8/15/2003) Gracia Burnham, an American missionary who was kidnapped in 2001 and held hostage by Abu Sayyaf rebels for more than a year, claims that her captors told her their weapons came from the Philippine government. (Asia Times, 7/29/2003)
- Islamic militants are being allowed to escape from jail. Just two weeks before the mutiny, Fathur Rohman al-Ghozi, a bomb maker with the al-Qaeda allied Jemaah Islamiah group, was inexplicably able to escape from a heavily guarded prison in Manila. Police admit he could not have escaped without inside help.
- The government is on the verge of staging a new string of bombings to justify declaring martial law so Arroyo can remain in office past the end of her term in 2004.
The Guardian will later note, “Though the soldiers’ tactics were widely condemned in the Philippines, there was widespread recognition in the press, and even inside the military, that their claims ‘were valid and legitimate’ .... Days before the mutiny, a coalition of church groups, lawyers, and NGOs launched a ‘fact-finding mission’ to investigate persistent rumors that the state was involved in the Davao explosions. It is also investigating the possible involvement of US intelligence agencies.” (Guardian, 8/15/2003) CNN comments, “While the government issued a statement calling the accusation ‘a lie,’ and saying the soldiers themselves could be victims of propaganda, the soldiers’ accusation plays on the fears of many Filipinos after the infamous 21-year term of President Ferdinand Marcos, during which he did the same thing. Marcos instigated a series of bombings and civil unrest in the late 1960s and early 1970s, using that as an excuse to declare martial law in 1972. It took the People Power Revolt of 1986 to end Marcos’ dictatorship.” (CNN, 7/26/2003)

1994: Militants Tied to Al-Qaeda Suspected of Collusion with Philippine Government

Some begin to suspect that the Philippine military is collaborating with Abu Sayyaf, a Muslim militant group operating in the southern Philippines which is said to have ties with al-Qaeda. In 1994, Philippine Catholic priest Father Loi Nacordo is kidnapped and held hostage by Abu Sayyaf for two months. He later comments, “There were many times when we passed close to military camps, and I would wonder: ‘Why isn’t the military going after us?’ ... Many times, we would walk very near the military camps—about 50 or 100 meters away, and we were never bothered by the army, even though my captors and I could actually see them. It would have been impossible for the army not to spot us, as we were moving in a large group—there were about 20 of us.” He will also say that he sometimes overheard Abu Sayyaf commanders talking about arms shipments from government sources and that weapons and ammunition boxes used by the group were marked as coming from the Philippine military. Nacordo will go public with these accusations in 2002, when the Philippine congress launches an investigation into allegations of continued collusion between the government and Abu Sayyaf. That same year, the BBC will report, “many Filipinos suspect that some high ranking military officers are colluding with the Abu Sayyaf, and taking a cut of the profits of the lucrative kidnapping trade.” (BBC, 1/31/2002) Also in 1994, a lieutenant colonel will voice similar doubts about Abu Sayyaf in the Philippine Army journal, asking, “How can a band of criminals with no military training to speak of withstand the full might of the armed forces, slip through the troop cordon and conduct kidnapping right under the very noses of government troops? Something is terribly wrong with our Armed Forces.” (Vitug and Gloria, 2000)


I'm working on some more entries along these lines. One very interesting thing I discovered is that Abu Sayyaf was deeply penetrated by the Philippine government at the time of Operation Bojinka (1994-1995); in fact, the number two guy in the organization was an undercover operative (Edwin Angeles). Further, Abu Sayyaf was heavily involved in Bojinka (for instance, Ramzi Yousef was training with Abu Sayyaf guys in the weeks before the fire that called off the plot, and these guys were training to take part in the operation). Since Bojinka evolved into 9/11, that certainly is curious.
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twylatharp Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-16-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. How can anyone read this and not realize what is
happening? and the complicit m.s.media never reports it. There were a group of Americans arrested in Egypt who were planning and inciting Muslims to commit acts of terrorism there and in Iraq. Then there were the British soldiers caught disguised as terrorists planting bombs in Iraq. There is a video of American soldiers watching as a mosque is blown up, apparently by them. Then the stories just disappear, there is no resolution or justice. The U.S. has been infiltrating and out right creating terrorists for decades and they are doing it now. There were companies associated with black ops in the world trade center and there was a group called NABE meeting at the Marriott on 9-10/9-11, many of the attendees were former CIA/military. The Marriott was connected to the towers by a tunnel or bridge, can't remember which...
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-16-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. And how often has Operation Gladio been covered in the mainstream US media
No wonder Americans have a hard time believing just what cynical, heartless, (and, in too many cases, murderous) bastards might be at work in the very intelligence agencies and military supposedly there to protect them from the "evildoers."

"You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force ... the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security," Sworn testimony of Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/FLO502B.html

Watch all 3 parts of the BBC documentary on Gladio here: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=operation+gladio


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twylatharp Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Precisely
and the CIA dropped leaflets in Central America directing them how to run false flag operations during Ira Contra. It's not speculation, it is documented fact
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-16-07 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Do you have a point? Is there an hypothesis here, somewhere?
You have gone to a great deal of trouble to post a lot of vague, poorly sourced claims of misbehavior by the Phillipine Government.

WHY?

Are you accusing the Phillipine Government of something?

Do you have a point, or is just Sinister Insinuation?

You think that adding up -enough- meaningless crap will somehow, someday result in proof of -some- thing?

What's your point?
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Do you have a point? You really don't, do you?
If you really do, just spit it out!

Others around here have -finally- come clean. It feel good--really it does!

Just state -clearly- the meaning of your evidence, as you see it.

Otherwise, I have to conclude either that you are -unable- to state a point clearly, OR that your point is so embarrassingly improbable that you don't want it subjected to rational criticism.
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Tim Howells Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Here is the point ...
See my other post on this thread. My take is that the the CIA started Abu Sayyaf in order to counter moves being made in the Philippines to limit US influence in the region. Abu Sayyaf was started in 1991, the same year that the Philippines Senate had voted to close all US military bases there. More on the how and why of these moves in the other post.

There is nothing wrong with Paul's sources. They are all from professional journalists working for the major Philippine newspapers and other major news outlets. Remember that the Meiring incident was post September 11, so the US media was not covering anything. They were already pretty terrible, but since 911 there is not much left of American journalism.

Tim Howells
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. "The CIA -started- Abu Sayyaf"? Your evidence for that is weak to nonexistent.
Assuming the stated facts are all true, I see evidence of US/CIA -involvement- with what would become al Qaeda, and of meddling in Phillipine affairs. But the leap to "The CIA -started- Abu Sayyaf" is not warranted by the evidence you present. It's not a matter of politics or loyalties or whatever; that is not a rational interpretation of the evidence.

Note that the period discussed is circa 1992, during the -Clinton- administration. Was Bill Clinton responsible for whatever nefariousness was happening here?

Note also that it is well understood and documented that the US was involved with radical Islamic groups in Afghanistan from the Carter administration. No one doubts that there is a complex and convoluted story that has not been told.

You would do well to make your arguments in conventional form rather than Conspiracy Theory Timeline form. State your thesis -CLEARLY- at the outset, then present the evidence for the thesis, then acknowledge possible alternate interpretations, then synthesize with a reasonable conclusion.

THESIS, ANTITHESIS, SYNTHESIS.

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Tim Howells Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. This has been going on since long before Clinton ...
... That is why this false-flag "Islamic terrorism" is a
bipartisan scandal, and is not being investigated.

For my own summary see:

How our governments use terrorism to control us

I'll look forward to your comments.

Interestingly, the GOP republicans did start an
investigation of the terrorist activity in the Balkans
sponsored by the Pentagon under Clinton, but they backed
off, probably after learning that important Republicans
were up to their eyebrows in that op. They went with
Monica Lewinski instead - much safer.

You're on the mark about a convoluted story starting
with (actually prior to) Afghanistan. Again, see
The link.

Tim Howells
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Ummmmmm....OK.
1. You assert a -lot- based on not very much evidence.
2. The involvement of the US in Afghanistan is well known.
3. The canard about interception of airliners has been refuted up the wazoo, down the wazoo, and out the ass. See the standard 911 debunking sites. (But, WTF would those fighters have done to avert tragedy? And, How The F'ck would the decision to shoot down a civilian airliner have been made -before- the towers were hit? And, why would the President not just delay a decision? And How The F'ck would the conspirators -stop the AF from doing its job?) Your reliance on this silliness disposes me to take little else you say seriously.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. "How The F'ck would the conspirators -stop the AF from doing its job?"
Are you serious?

How about arranging war games on the same day as the attacks.

How about giving orders that the aircraft approaching the Pentagon be left alone - "Do the orders still stand.." - what was that about?

How about a proper independant investigation!
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. No scheduled wargames were run by NORAD that day.
You have zero evidence but your own wish that the order "still stand" was a standdown order. With the actual evidence, it was more likely authorization to shoot down the plane should it be intercepted by fighter jets.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Really?
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 02:22 AM by The Lone Groover
With the actual evidence, it was more likely authorization to shoot down the plane should it be intercepted by fighter jets

The actual evidence is that it was tracked all the way to the Pentagon without being shotdown.... it was crashed... 43 minutes after being identified as a hijacking... 49 minutes after it was realised that hijacked aircraft were being used as weapons.

Yeah... the orders still stood.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. sigh
Where to start...

Mineta is off in timing. They weren't talking about Flight 77. They were estimating the advance of Flight 93, which had already crashed.

Do we have to go through this every time you sign up for a new identity?
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Estimating the advance of Flight 93??
Mineta is off in timing. They weren't talking about Flight 77. They were estimating the advance of Flight 93, which had already crashed.

Mineta: "During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice Presidentthe plane is 50 miles outthe plane is 30 miles out.and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president "do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said "Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary""

Hamilton: "The flight you were referring to is the...".

Mineta: "...the one that came into the Pentagon".

I don't see why you are confused... Oh that's right... Mineta is wrong.. of course.

It was tracked all the way and not shot down after all that time in the air.

The orders still stood.

Did anyone get promoted?

(By the way - you're way off with hints about my identity, I have never posted here under any other ID)
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Cheney didn't get anywhere near the bunker until just before 77 hit the Pentagon.
He was removed from his office on the news that 77 was turning back to Washington (in the large turn that 77 made in dropping altitude). He hit the tunnel leading to the underground bunker at 9:37. Flight 77 hit the Pentagon one minute later. Cheney had stopped at a secure phone to call Bush. A television was nearby, and from that he learned that the plane had hit the Pentagon.

There was absolutely no time for the conversation Mineta remembered to be about Flight 77. Such a conversation did occur about 93, after it had already crashed.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Well that all depends which conflicting story...
...you want to believe.

Doesn't it.

50 miles out... 40 miles out... 30 miles out... 10 MILES OUT.... when did Flight 93 get to 10 miles out of DC?

How close did Flight 93 get to Washington?

Mineta is way, way out - in fact he must be lying... or is he?

Why don't we have an open independent investigation into it.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Mineta isn't lying. He's mistaken...
...and he would be the first to say that he's basing all that on speculation. In fact, he did.

Seeing as how the 50 mile out conversation happened after Flight 93 had crashed, it's clear that they were estimating where Flight 93 should have been based on an earlier report.

You believe one person against all other evidence because it suits you. I'm going with all the other evidence.

An open, independent investigation wouldn't satisfy you or any other CTer.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. That really is total and utter garbage.
Spin.. spin.. spin!

Mineta was talking about Flight 77 and the comments he heard were about Flight 77. It could not possibly mean anything else. That would also mean that Cheneys story is boll*cks - which is why you need to discredit this so badly.

it's clear that they were estimating where Flight 93 should have been based on an earlier report.

Total junk! They were estmating were Flight 93 was? Rubbish. They knew where it was. They also knew where Flight 77 was.

How you have the bare faced cheek to spin it as though it was Flight 93 is beyond me. Its astounding actually.

An open, independent investigation wouldn't satisfy you or any other CTer.

Of course it would. Are you suggesting we don't bother?


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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. It's Mineta's recollection vs. the cohesive records and recollections of others
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 04:54 PM by boloboffin
Mineta only thought it was Flight 77. He was wrong.

You believe Mineta is right about Flight 77, but wrong about the shootdown order. (Yes! Mineta says it was a shootdown order!)

I believe Mineta is wrong about Flight 77 (an alternate account about Flight 93, after it had already crashed, cited by several witnesses) and right about the shootdown order (also cited by several witnesses). Mineta's misreading of the situation is understood by the distances being called out. Mineta didn't know which plane was being talked about, but knew later that 93 crashed and 77 got to Washington. That's why he thinks the plane was 77. He rearranged his entire memory around that later understanding of the facts. He was wrong.

Facts on my side, wishful thinking on yours.

And please, any "open, independent investigation" wouldn't please you or anyone else on the CT side. It's a talking point. And everyone here knows it.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Again... rubbish.
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 01:52 AM by The Lone Groover
How close did Flight 93 get to Washington?

They were "estimating" its distance? They estimated it at 10 miles at one point? This is such a pile of steaming horse poo. Don't they have radar? Didn't they know exactly where Flight 93 and 77 were (you know they did).

How have you got the nerve.

You have to do this though because otherwise it makes Cheney's story a lie.

Yes Mineta later wondered if the standing order was a shootdown order when he heard 93 had hit the ground - yes "Oh my God did we shoot it down" - but also said he didn't know what it referred to at the time. Again you have twisted Mineta's actual words.

Why are you doing this?

Facts on my side, wishful thinking on yours.

Facts? FACTS?? The wishful thinking is coming from you with your ridiculous "estimating" story.

And please, any "open, independent investigation" wouldn't please you or anyone else on the CT side. It's a talking point. And everyone here knows it.

Again rubbish, "everyone" knows it.

An open and independent investigation would be just fine - thanks. I take you don't see the point of one.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Wow, this really seems to threaten you.
I don't know if the White House has radar. Do you?

I know that if somebody has the speed, position, and heading of an airplane, they can calculate where the plane will be if none of the variables change. It's called math.

This conversation was happening after 10 am. It could not have been about 77. Cheney was almost removed from his office on the news (from National, where they have radar!) that a plane was heading toward Washington. This removal was delayed because of word from National (where they have radar!) that the plane was turning away. The removal began in earnest after National (where they have radar!) then confirmed that the plane was turning back toward Washington. Cheney got to the tunnel outside the bunker one minute before 77 crashed into the Pentagon. How many people have to be telling a lie or supporting a lie to falsify this? The Secret Service agents (at least two), the person talking to the Secret Service from National, the ATC monitoring the plane, and Cheney. That's five people. Even if you just call Cheney a liar on general principal, you still have four other people whose stories are consistent on this timing.

I don't see the point of an open and independent investigation to satisfy your concerns at all. You and your CT brothers would never be satisfied with it. Never.

Facts on my side. Wishful thinking on yours.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. !!!
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 02:32 AM by The Lone Groover
I don't know if the White House has radar. Do you?

I don't know about the White House itself, but I'm fairly sure Washington has it covered. And actually Flight 77 was tracked all the way - but you know that.

How far you going to go with this "estimating" rubbish?

You can keep putting Cheney's story all you like - Mineta's story makes it a crock.

I don't see the point of an open and independent investigation to satisfy your concerns at all. You and your CT brothers would never be satisfied with it. Never.

Do you know Uri Geller? He does mind-reading and predictions.

You don't see the point of an open and independant investigation? Not surprised.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. You believe Uri Geller is genuine? nt
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. No, he reads minds and predicts events.
But he's a proven faker.
I detest the bloke actually.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Oh... and as for wargames...
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 02:50 AM by The Lone Groover
There was a Congressional hearing on 11th March 2005 - it was interesting in that Cynthia McKinney question to Rumsfeld and Myers about four war games on 9/11 was skilfully ignored!

We await the answer to that public question.




edit: Cynthia McKinney not Myers.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yes, I am quite serious.
I've known a couple of naval aviators; I presume that AF fighter jocks are much the same.

Gung-ho and overly patriotic for my taste and to the right politically.

BUT

professional and above-all patriotic and idealistic. These people -would not- "stand down" and remain silent about it.

The war-games, if there were any, had no effects on intercepts. Planes and pilots were assigned to that task; they would have responded if they could have.

I am four-square in favor of an "independant" (or independent) investigation of the many things that are actually in question. This would not be one of those things.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Good!
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 02:42 AM by The Lone Groover
I am four-square in favor of an "independant" (or independent) investigation of the many things that are actually in question.

Such as...? (This could be like trying to nail Jelly to a door).

(Oh and I can't spell... big deal... but any point in a storm I guess.)
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Things that should be investigated:
1. The information held by the intelligence agencies before 911; therefore, the extent of the failure to stop the plot.
2. The information given to GWB and high admin officials before 911; therefore, the extent of their negligence or incompetence.
3. The involvement of our allies the Saudis and Pakistanis with al Qaeda and 911.

Possibilities that should NOT be investigated:
1. Romulan Disruptor Fire.
2. Thermite
3. No Planes
4. Pentagon No Planes
5. Fake Fone Kalls
6. Pod Planes
7. Dustification
8. etc.

You can actually glue Jelly pretty well with Krazy Glue. Try it.
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The Lone Groover Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. I have a problem with...
1. The information held by the intelligence agencies before 911; therefore, the extent of the failure to stop the plot.
2. The information given to GWB and high admin officials before 911; therefore, the extent of their negligence or incompetence.
3. The involvement of our allies the Saudis and Pakistanis with al Qaeda and 911.


Your use of the word "therefore".

For instance "therefore, the extent of their negligence or incompetence". Why not "therefore, the extent of their complicity, negligence or incompetence".

Oh.. don't go there.

The rest of your post was just strawman BS.

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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. You haven't defended your evidence. nt
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Tim Howells Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. I guess you mean about ...
... Abu Sayyaf being created by the CIA. Well, it's difficult
of course to say exactly where and how a group gets started.
What we can say definitively based on the copious
documentation already posted on this thread, both by Paul
Thompson and myself, is that the CIA and other US agencies
were deeply involved in Abu Sayaff, and used the group for
their own purposes. If you have any questions about that
reread Paul's OP and his and my followups. Feel free to
ask any specific questions that may be bothering you of course.

Lots of radical and/or militant groups get started, but
most go nowhere. Those that have an impact are exclusively
IMO those that receive significant state funding and logistical
support etc. (coverly of course).

By the way, there is a very significant linkage between these
activities in the Philippines and September 11, via "project Bojinka".

Tim Howells
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-16-07 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. No one thinks the CIA could hire a Philippine to do the wet work
Why would an operative place himself in such risk. It's idiotic.
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Tim Howells Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
40. Don't really understand this point ...
The CIA and other US intelligence agencies were working
together with allies in the Philippines military and
intel communities. Both US and Philippines assets were
used - nothing unusual about any of this.

Tim Howells
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. So where is Meiring now?
Edited on Sat Feb-17-07 02:11 AM by seemslikeadream
http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou041202_jt_de...


Is a bombing suspect living in Houston?
02:14 PM CST on Thursday, December 2, 2004

By Mark Greenblatt / 11 News


Click to watch video


For more than two years, Philippine officials say they've wanted to arrest Michael Meiring. The problem? They couldn't find him, but then the 11 News Defenders took a look.

Michael Meiring is a man at the center of a mystery, a fugitive from justice, a man who may be closer than you think. And it began in 2002 in Spring and half a world a way in the Philippines where Davao City was fighting its own war with terrorism and losing.

First there was an explosion at the local airport, then another bomb at the city's wharf. In all, 37 people died and 170 were injured.

For Mayor Rodrigo Duterte it was already too much. He asked, "How can this thing happen?"

Officials laid the blame with the Islamic rebel groups that often terrorize the southern Philippines. Their common goal is independence from the predominantly Catholic country.

But then there was a crime committed, says Duterte, in May and yet another explosion.



http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/10/michael-m...
Michael Meiring: Blast from the Past
A name I wish more people knew is that of Michael Meiring. And I wish we knew more about him than next to nothing.

Meiring is an American national and self-described "fortune hunter," who was seriously injured May 16, 2002 in an explosion in his Davao City hotel room on the Phillippine island of Mindanao. Screaming in pain, his legs mangled, Meiring told police someone had lobbed a grenade through his window. Actually, the explosion had originated inside a metal box with which Meiring had checked in.

Just three days later, an FBI team arrived at his hospital room and spirited him stateside before the matter could be investigated, despite arrest warrants, an order that he not leave the country, and "without the knowledge of any police, military or government official in the city or region," in the words of Davao City Mayor Rodrigo Duterte, who called Meiring's FBI-aided flight an "affront to Philippine sovereignty."

From The Minda News excellent three-part series on the Meiring mystery:

The circumstances behind Meirings sudden departure from the hospital, inspite of his serious condition, raised questions about his real identity. A number of officials in for background only interviews, speculated Meiring may have been an agent of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

Meiring himself, according to those who had spent some time with him, refered to himself as CIA although he would qualify that to mean Christ In Action.
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Tim Howells Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks Paul, lots of new info there ...
Here is my own take on Abu Sayyaf, Meiring, etc. This should be updated now, but the new information only strengthens the argument:

How our governments use terrorism to control us
...

The CIA Brings al-Qaeda to the Philippines

In 1991, with the Afghan War winding down, the Abu Sayyaf terrorist group was formed in the Philippines around a core of radical Afghan veterans. They conducted their first kidnapping operation in 1992, and were responsible for a series of bombings and kidnappings throughout the 1990s that were highly destabilising for the Philippine government. Several high level al-Qaeda operatives, including Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed were involved. Funding was provided by one of bin Laden's brothers in law, Mohammed Jamal Khalifa, an important figure in the funding of al-Qaeda operations worldwide.

Ahmed cites many authoritative sources, including Philippine intelligence officer Rene Jarque, Lt. Col. Ricardo Morales, and Senator Aquilino Q. Pimentel, to show that the Abu-Sayyaf group has received special assistance and protection both from the Philippine military and from the United States. Pimentel in a speech before the Philippine Senate in July of 2000 accused the CIA of creating the terrorist organisation with the help of their contacts in the Philippine military and intelligence communities.

Two incidents in particular have exposed the connivance of the United States in the Abu Sayyaf reign of terror beyond a reasonable doubt. In December of 1994, Khalifa was arrested during a visit to San Francisco on immigration violations. The FBI was aware of his ties to the Abu Sayyaf group and to al-Qaeda, and began a criminal investigation. Khalifa's lawyers tried to stall the investigation and manoeuvre for extradition to Jordan. Incredibly, help came to Khalifa from on high. Secretary of State Warren Christopher personally wrote a three-page letter to Attorney General Janet Reno asking that the request for extradition be granted. Accordingly, the FBI investigation was cancelled and Khalifa was sent to Jordan per his own request, where he was soon a free man.

The second incident is even more extraordinary and revealing. Michael Meiring, an American citizen, arrived in the Philippines in 1992 and promptly formed close working relationships both with high government officials and with rebel leaders in the Abu Sayyaf group. In 2002, in the midst of a wave of Abu Sayyaf bombings, Meiring accidentally detonated a bomb in his own hotel room in Mindao causing grave injury to himself, requiring emergency hospitalisation. US authorities immediately intervened. FBI agents and "agents of the National Security Council" swept him away from his hospital room, first to a hospital in Manila where Meiring was kept incommunicado and was treated by a doctor hand-picked by the US embassy. Then Meiring was rushed back to the United States. Like Ali Mohamed, his fate and current whereabouts are unknown. Numerous attempts to have him extradited back to the Philippines for prosecution have been stonewalled by US authorities.

The motivations for American support of terrorism in the Philippines are not hard to guess. In 1991, the same year that Abu Sayyaf was formed, the Philippines Senate had voted to close all US military bases in their country, an action with profound implications for the military posture of the United States in South Asia. In 2002, due to the destabilising effects of the Abu Sayyaf operations, the US military were invited back into the country to participate in operation Balikatan ("shoulder to shoulder"), a joint US/Philippine military exercise purportedly aimed at eliminating terrorism. These operations required special exemptions from the Philippine Constitution, which forbids foreign armies from operating on Philippine soil. Once again, al-Qaeda, with the help of their American friends, had acted to advance the geostrategic interests of the United States.


... Continued at Link
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. Syrian Luai Sakra is another unsung asset.
Edited on Sat Feb-17-07 10:09 AM by reprehensor
Turkey arrests al-Qaeda suspects

Wednesday, 10 August, 2005

Two Syrian nationals suspected of having links with al-Qaeda have been arrested in Turkey.

Luai Sakra, 32, is suspected of involvement in the November 2003 bombings of UK and Jewish targets in Istanbul which killed 63 people...


A Strange Al Qaeda Leader: I Dont Pray, I Drink Alcohol

Monday , 15 August 2005

Luai Sakra, one of the 5 most important key figures in Al Qaeda, was captured last week by Turkish Police. Israel police was almost spoiling all operation, Turkish officials say. Sakra, who has been interrogated in Istanbul Police Department Anti Terror Office for 4 days has made many interesting confessions. He noted that he knew Muhammad Ata, planner of the attacks on the WTI and Pentagon. Sakra claimed that he has organized terrorist activities for Jihad but he said that he drinks alcohol and does not pray.


A classic Oswald, Sakra has all kinds of stories;

Sakra: I Dispatched Men to US and UK for Terrorist Activity

15.08.2005

Sakra said: At one moment during the clashes, there were 10 US soldiers on the roof of the house, in which we were hiding and yet none of them noticed us. I killed 10 US soldiers with my bare hands. I came out of the Fallujah inferno alive. That who can come out alive from Falujah can come out alive from anywhere. I will come out alive from here as well. Sakra who assumed a mysterious personality during the police interrogation confessed that the US Central Intelligence Agency, Syrian al-Mukhabarat, and the Turkish National Security Organization wanted to employ him as an intelligence agent. Security officials noted that whatever Sakra might tell during his trial could be very important, considering his obscure relations. If during his trial, Sakra tells half of the information we heard from him, al-Qaedas real face will emerge. But what he has said so far has more to do about a formation permeated by secret services rather than the terror organization of al-Qaeda.

...Sakra was arrested in Diyarbakir Airport on 6 August 2005, right before he was going to Istanbul for a new facelift. The other Syrian, Hamed Obysi, who escaped from Antalya was detained at Cilvegozu Boarder Gate. Both suspects were arrested and sentenced to prison.


A "facelift", yeah, how about a "new face".

Al-Qaeda, a Secret Service Operation?

14.08.2005

Countries facing the al-Qaeda threat are awaiting the intelligence Turkish security is to provide. Amid the smoke from the fortuitous fire emerged the possibility that al-Qaeda may not be, strictly speaking, an organization but an element of an intelligence agency operation. Turkish intelligence specialists agree that there is no such organization as al-Qaeda. Rather, Al-Qaeda is the name of a secret service operation. The concept fighting terror is the background of the low-intensity-warfare conducted in the mono-polar world order. The subject of this strategy of tension is named as al-Qaeda.

Sakra, the fifth most senior man in Osama bin Ladins al-Qaeda that has challenged the whole world from a base in the Afghan mountains, is in the hands of Turkish Justice. Sakra has been sought by the secret services since 2000. The US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) interrogated him twice before. Following the interrogation CIA offered him employment. He also received a large sum of money by CIA. However the CIA eventually lost contact with him. Following this development, in 2000 the CIA passed intelligence about Sakra through a classified notice to Turkey, calling for the Turkish National Security Organization (MIT) to capture him. MIT caught Sakra in Turkey and interrogated him. Sakras protests that, MIT abducted my wife and interrogated her for 20 days, as he was brought to Besiktas court in Istanbul for sentencing, seem to confirm these claims.



"Geez, gosh! We lost track of him after we gave him a bunch of cash!"

Bullshit.
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ma2007 Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
26. Atta learned to fly there - it all fits together
Excerpts:

Filipinos Recall Hijack Suspects Leading a High Life
Don Kirk International Herald Tribune
Friday, October 5, 2001



MABALACAT, Philippines They stayed at a popular resort hotel here, drank whiskey with Philippine bargirls, dined at a restaurant that specializes in Middle Eastern cuisine and visited at least one of the local flight schools.

The two men suspected by the FBI of being at the controls of the planes that flew into New York's World Trade Center on Sept. 11 left those traces behind from visits from 1998 to 2000 to this hustling market town outside a former U.S. Air Force base, according to local residents who say they recognized the two from news photographs.

Philippine and U.S. investigators have been checking out the reported movements here of Marwan Al-Shehhi and Mohamed Atta. They would not confirm the accused hijackers' presence in the Philippines, but the local hotel workers were willing to discuss them.

<...>

Mr. Atta was by no means a recluse. "Many times I saw him let a girl go at the gate in the morning," she said. "It was always a different girl."

:The accounts here tend to confirm reports from the United States that at least some of the accused hijackers had free-wheeling lifestyles full of sex and alcohol, and took precautions to keep their identities secret.

more see:
http://www.medienanalyse-international.de/faksimiles.ht...

Who tries to wash this fact away ?
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. kicking ...
4 exposure! :hi:
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ma2007 Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Gracias
Mabuhai.

There are people constantly trying to cover the facts up.

TWO Attas - that is the conclusion. Compare the findings of Andre II in DU.
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ma2007 Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Interestingly
we all can notice how childrens topics are raised immediately, widely and all in different new threads to keep zhe important ones down.
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ma2007 Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. How comnes there is no answer to the
Phillipine qugmire ?
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ma2007 Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. CIA in the Phillipines, and Atta learned to fly there
and a good silence in this forum about that.

For sure the information kills the alleged Saudi connection. And it proves the doppelganger thesis of Andr II.

It makes Atta suspicious not to be a islamic terrorist - but a CIA asset.

Yes - it is not loved.
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ma2007 Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Not even Mr. Thompson himself seems to
be interested in Atta on the Phillipines ....
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. See this entry...
...which has been around for a year or more.

1998-2000: Atta and Alshehhi Are Seen Living in Philippines

Hijackers Mohamed Atta and Marwan Alshehhi live periodically in the town of Mabalacat, Philippines. They stay in the Woodland Resort hotel and apparently learn to fly planes at a nearby flight school. Although Philippine and US investigators have not been able to confirm their presence in Mabalacat, locals are certain they saw them frequently partying, drinking alcohol, sleeping with local women, and consorting with many other, unknown Arabs (most of whom disappear shortly before 9/11). For instance, according to a former waitress at the hotel, Alshehhi throws a party in December 1999 with six or seven Arab friends: “They rented the open area by the swimming pool for 1,000 pesos. They drank Johnnie Walker Black Label whiskey… They came in big vehicles, and they had a lot of money. They all had girlfriends.” Several employees recall Atta staying at the hotel during the summer of 1999, acting unfriendly and cheap. One hotel employee claims that most of the guests were Arab, and many took flying lessons at the nearby school. These witnesses claim the two used aliases, but the other Arabs referred to Atta as “Mohamed.” (Associated Press, 9/28/2001; Manila Times, 10/2/2001; International Herald Tribune, 10/5/2001) Apparently, other hijackers and 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed visit the Philippines during this time. However, according to the official version of events, Atta and Alshehhi are in Hamburg, Germany, during this time. Atta is still working on his thesis, which he completes in late 1999. (Australian Broadcasting Corporation, 11/12/2001)

see also this one:

2000-September 10, 2001: Hijackers Possibly Spend Time in Philippines

The names of four hijackers are later discovered in Philippines immigration records, according to Philippine Immigration Commissioner Andrea Domingo. However, whether these are the hijackers or just other Saudis with the same names has not been confirmed. Abdulaziz Alomari visits the Philippines once in 2000, then again in February 2001, leaving on February 12. (Associated Press, 9/19/2001; Philippines Inquirer, 9/19/2001; Daily Telegraph, 9/20/2001) Ahmed Alghamdi visits Manila, Philippines, more than 13 times in the two years before 9/11. He leaves the Philippines the day before the attacks. (Daily Telegraph, 9/20/2001; Arizona Daily Star, 9/28/2001) Fayez Ahmed Banihammad visits the Philippines on October 17-19, 2000. (Daily Telegraph, 9/20/2001; Arizona Daily Star, 9/28/2001) Saeed Alghamdi visits the Philippines on at least 15 occasions in 2001, entering as a tourist. The last visit ends on August 6, 2001. (Daily Telegraph, 9/20/2001) Hijackers Mohamed Atta and Marwan Alshehhi may also have been living in the Philippines, and 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed occasionally stays there. While in the Philippines, it is possible the hijackers meet with associates of Mohammed Jamal Khalifa, bin Laden’s brother-in-law (see December 16, 1994-May 1995). Khalifa has been closely linked with the Philippines chapter of the International Islamic Relief Organization, which gets much of its money from the Saudi Arabian government. The organization has recently been accused of being a front for al-Qaeda. Amongst other connections to terrorism, Khalifa helped fund the Islamic Army of Aden, a group that claimed responsibility for the bombing of the USS Cole. (Boston Herald, 10/14/2001) Khalifa has been connected through phone calls to Hambali, a major terrorist who attended a planning meeting for the 9/11 attacks in Malaysia (see January 5-8, 2000), also attended by two hijackers connected to the Islamic Army of Aden. (Cox News Service, 10/21/2001; PBS Frontline, 10/3/2002) (The US had Khalifa in custody for about six months in 1995.) Nothing more has been heard to confirm or deny the hijackers’ Philippines connections since these reports.

---

This all takes on increasing importance because I'm learning that contrary to most press accounts, al-Qaeda kept strong ties in the Philippines after the Bojinka plot was broken up in 1995. For instance, Mamdouh Salim, one of the top al-Qaeda leaders, lived there from 1995 to 1998, and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed went there so often and found it such a safe haven that there are credible reports he was even there after 9/11, in 2002. Many of the Bojinka plotters were never arrested and continued to live openly in the Philippines, while charities known to have had funded Bojinka continued to stay open there too. I'm also finding more evidence of continued ties between al-Qaeda and Abu Sayyaf all during this time, and continued government infiltration of Abu Sayyaf. I'll be adding more entries on all this kind of material soon. The Philippines are an important nest of intrigue.
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Tim Howells Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
42. another kick because ...
1) This is such a striking example of US Supported and manipulated
terrorist activity

2) The direct links to the World Trade Center bombing (Ramzi Yousef)
and September 11 (Bojinka).

3) The continued and intensified phony terrorism post-911 (Meiring)

4) The importance of the Philippine operations in the context of
the use of phony terrorism for geopolitical purposes by the US
Government. (See: How our governments use terrorism to control us)

Tim Howells
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 02:23 PM
Original message
kick
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
46. kick
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