2 U.S. Reports Seek to Counter Conspiracy Theories About 9/11 -NYT

[goforit]

"2 U.S. Reports Seek to Counter Conspiracy Theories About 9/11"

by Jim Dwyer

"Faced with an angry minority of people who believe the Sept. 11 attacks were part of a shadowy and sprawling plot run by Americans, separate reports were published this week by the State Department and a federal science agency insisting that the catastrophes were caused by hijackers who used commercial airliners as weapons.

The official narrative of the attacks has been attacked as little more than a cover story by an assortment of radio hosts, academics, amateur filmmakers and others who have spread their arguments on the Internet and cable television in America and abroad. As a motive, they suggest that the Bush administration wanted to use the attacks to justify military action in the Middle East.

Most elaborately, they propose that the collapse of the World Trade Center was actually caused by explosive charges secretly planted in the buildings, rather than by the destructive force of the airliners that thundered into the towers and set them ablaze.

The government reports and officials say the demolition argument is utterly implausible on a number of grounds. Indeed, few proponents of the explosives theory are willing to venture explanations of how daunting logistical problems would be overcome, such as planting thousands of pounds of explosives in busy office towers."

con't..............
<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/02/nyregion/02conspiracy.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin>

The irony about this article is that it was perfectly placed
right next to NYT-regional section article on the recent Fallen fireman.

Is the Gov't trying to convince the NY Firemen that 911 was not a
conspiracy?

[Exiled in America]

1. I'm not part of the explosives conspiracy crowd - and I think they do a

huge disservice to actually uncovering the truth. They look like lunatics, so the official cover story sounds much more sane and believable. Sometimes I've even had my own conspiracy, wondering how much of the crazy conspiracy plot theories around 9/11 haven't actually been pushed by government stooges as distractions.

There WAS conspiracy around 9/11. There was a conspiracy at least to cover up the full and open truth about the governments knowledge about the attacks and response to the attacks. And I want very much to get at the truth.

But I don't think the lunatic fringe helps us get there - and yeah, I'm calling it that after having watched everything I could watch and read everything I could read trying to listen to all sides. My conclusions is that I group them right there with the flat earth society, people who think we faked the moon landings, and people who believe in alien abductions.

[MervinFerd]

4. Actually, Alien Abductions sound pretty sane next to the No-Planers....

At least they aren't denying plainly visible facts.

And then, there are Cow Abductions:

http://www.cowabduction.com/

[Henny Penny]

47. Supporting the pre-planted explosives theory does not

necessarily mean that there were no planes.

[CJCRANE]

12. I agree.

Investigating controlled demolition is not important.

What is important is what role did assets in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and UAE had in 9/11? And were they being facilitated by elements connected to the neocons both practically (in terms of visas etc) and politically (by squashing investigations into terrorist funding, reducing the preparedness level, changing the shootdown policy etc)?

[dailykoff]

14. It's important.

Murder is a high crime. CIA activities on the other hand are basically unprosecutable.

[heliarc]

46. I think it does everyone a disservice ...

to throw around the word "lunatic" when describing a lot of americans who are simply trying to understand one of the more spectacular architectural and mechanical failures in human history.

While I don't pretend to know exactly what happened on 9/11 I am willing to listen to myriad theories on the issue and make distinctions of my own without labeling people like you do.

I would point your attention to WTC 7 before you consider some of these people to be lunatics. I'm not so sure that this building's real reason for collapse has been determined to be the planes on 9/11... It is VERY VERY hard to believe that fire alone is what brought this building down.

[Henny Penny]

49. Anyone who genuinely tries to uncover the truth is worthy of our respect.

I'm not sure I can say the same about people who try to stiffle debate.

[John Q. Citizen]

54. Just out of curiosity, how do you explain the molten steel, (both from

the tower before collapse and at ground zero for all three buildings that persisted for weeks) FEMA evidence in appendix c, the three complete almost straight down stagiated collapses by three random events, the lack of physical evidence to support the NIST theory of maximum temperatures reached on the fire floors, the eyewitness testimony of secondary explosions, and the claims of Dr. Jones that he's found evidence of thermate?

And how does that evidence somehow equate people who believe planned demolition is a better hypothesis than the NIST hypothesis, to the groups like the Flat Earth Society, etc?

(edited for spelling)

[UpInArms]

55. do you think a security company would have access to all parts

of a building?

then read this and see if you can tell me there is nothing more for us to know.

[mod mom]

2. Report by State Department known as a “counter-misinformation team,”

Hmmh...what would we expect this arm of the state department to produce?

[applegrove]

3. The ***holes did nothing to counter the predictable theories for

FIVE YEARS

. Like they really care!

[MervinFerd]

6. The reports come from the Engineering and Architectural communities....

Not from the desk of Karl Rove.

If you'll actually read the FAQs, they're reasonable and plausible and leave absolutely no room for crazy theories about explosives.

[applegrove]

19. I heard those reports from the get go. I have never though - that it was

anything but ME terrorism. That morning I thought it might be Palestine. Then I heard they thought it was al Qaeda. And I saw video of Yasser Arafat's face when he made a statement (he was terrified).

I've never believed it was anything else and heard that structural engineers all over the world were saying that because the jet fuel destroyed floor about 2/3 the way up...there was the pressure of 30 story office tower put on the rest of the building when it became structurally unsound. And that it was inevitable it would implode.

So it wasn't the Bush WH who has started a loud campaign to help those souls who just couldn't believe the worst scenario (they choose criminals in the USA who can be caught and put in jail if one would just look hard enough)..rather than the truth (a small civilization of jihadist have declared war on the USA and don't care how many of them die trying to terrorize).

So it is someone else stepping up to do the work government should be doing.. assuaging fears and helping Americans to heal. Obviously there must be some sort of pay-off for Bush to just leave people grieving and in denial. Certainly makes for trouble when on lefty talks to another.

I have not researched this. But what has * done to help Americans heal from the trauma? Anything? I mean this particular group of people. All I can recall is he tried to shut down the 9/11 Commission - which would be the opposite of what you would do if you wanted to bring the 9/11 conspiracy theorists back into the fold. Can you think of anything * has done? There may have been one thing about 6 months ago....

[bobthedrummer]

5. At a minimum it was LIHOP. That is reality. eom

[MervinFerd]

7. Only in the fevered world of the ConspiraLoons.

[leesa]

9. It's hard to be afraid, isn't it.

[MervinFerd]

16. Who's afraid? I'm annoyed by Puerile Fools.

[NoodleyAppendage]

18. Conspiracies are fact and history is replete with them.

We know that governmental conspiracies are part and parcel of history, so why would it be out of bounds to consider one in the case of 9/11?

J

[saskatoon]

34. Look up NY Stock Exchange

which 2 days previous to 9/11 showed some interesting buys and sells in Airline stocks.

[TheWatcher]

25. Then step by step, link by link, fact by fact

Prove the governments case. Prove the Official Story.

You can't.

All you can do is insult and attack those who question it.

Pretty useless aren't you?

Now, be a Good Citizen, go to the mall, buy your stuff, eat your cheeseburgers, go to your ball-game, wave your flag, and don't question anything.

In fact just shut up. You don't appear to have anything to add.

[goforit]

40. I love your tell it like it is come back. LOL!!!

[UpInArms]

57. I guess you just prefer the assinine ones?

or perhaps the immature?

Reminds me of that old saying:

Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[Zynx]

11. I prefer LIHBTI: Let it happen by total incompetence.

I maintain that this administration can't find its ass from a hole in the ground.

[Blue_Tires]

15. i've been a long-time believer in that as well

but i do feel a few people in key places helped grease the wheels of willful incompetency here and there

[FoxOnTheRun]

35. How did they manage to get reelected?

[Pastiche423]

37. If you mean "re-selected"

the answer is Diebold et al.

[0007]

38. OMFG!!

[goforit]

41. Ahhh...I prefer MIHBTI...Agreement totally on Total incompetence.

[leesa]

8. Well, good. Let's look at it all. How many pounds of thermite, what role

Bush's brother Marvin had at the Security companycontrolling access to the WTC, those mysterious interviews with experts in demolition who said it definitely was a demoliton then changed their minds suddenly. Let's look at it all. Let's test the molten portions for thermite and find out.

[MervinFerd]

17. Thousands of pounds of Thermite, and totally impractical.

Many foolish things were said in the confusion after 9/11. The expert conclusion after reflection and study is the relevant one.

And, Bush's brother may well be a crook. So?

[heliarc]

48. So?

He was in charge of security at the WTC leading up to the collapse... and one can establish motive when you look at the insurance claims that Larry Silverstein made after the fact... and his team of Architects that have opposed the Freedom Tower's original design ever since. The whole thing was a big money maker for that guy. It doesn't prove that the tower's were demolished, but it sure smells bad.

And please someone explain to me how 7 WTC collapsed... Fire on the fifth floor? Give me a break.

[John Q. Citizen]

60. If they used a combination of thermate (thermite with sulpher added

to enhance steel cutting) and high explosives then the overall weight could be significantly less than thousands of pounds.

It makes at least as much sense as three buildings completely collapsing on the same day from 3 random events.

[cyberpj]

10. If there was nothing to hide they wouldn't be working this hard. nt.

[dailykoff]

13. Sounds like the spinners are working overtime.

And you know they hate paying overtime. :)

[goforit]

42. Is their consciousness e-a-t-i-n-g them alive?

My God!!!

Look at how many years GHW Bush tried to cover up the
Kennedy assasination

[Magical]

20. What's wrong with Truth

Liars Lie.
Myth is not the truth.
Truth is what withstands the utmost inspection.
Let the truth be known, whatever it may be.
Only in truth is justice done.
Only in justice will peace prevail.
Only in peace will mankind live.
So be it.

Magical

[Sinti]

23. Hear! Hear!!

:toast: So Be It

[TheWatcher]

26. Because if the possibilities of the Truth in this particular matter scare

to death in too big a way far too many of the sheep.

It scares to death in too big a way even those amongst us who are free-yhinking and reasonable.

It seems to me that most Americans simply don't WANT to know what happened on that day.

They seem to think ignoring it and hoping it will just go away is the solution.

It isn't.

[goforit]

43. Yah....Look how terribly the recent WTC movie did in the box office.

[Eurobabe]

21. Conspiracy theories cut into their ability to play the Terra Card 24/7

Hence the report courtesy of paid overtime.

[goforit]

44. Yessssss..... Isn't it quite the haunting!!!!

[Pastiche423]

22. Aww...

Is the truth making the decider uncomfortable about his upcoming visit to the scenes of the crime?

It tickles me when newbies come here all indignant that this mal-administration would never hurt the citizens of this country to advance their PNAC plans.

Suckas!

"During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

On edit: "that", not "the"

[geek tragedy]

24. The administration would LOVE for the no-plane nutjobs

to get lumped into those seeking to hold this admin accountable for its egregious incompetence and complete failure to make this country safer, either before or after 9/11.

[Pastiche423]

29. "no plane nutjobs"

Did you even read the article? Nowhere in the article does it discuss a "no plane" conspiracy.

Why did you make that statement?

[geek tragedy]

30. Same shit, different pile as the controlled demolition crowd.

They make the Rapture Right look like Copernicus.

[Pastiche423]

31. No, it is not the same shit, different pile

This article is SPECIALLY about the towers.

Why do you love the decider and his cabal so much?

[heliarc]

50. Wow...

The cursing and chauvenism of the Osama conspiracy believers on this thread makes some of the freepers look like Holly Hobby.

[reprobate]

27. Pardon while I done the tinfoil suit. Several question Must be answered.

Why are these two buildings the only steel tower buildings in the history of architecture to be destroyed by fire? There HAVE been other fires.

Why did Marvin Bush - in charge of security for the buildings - close the buildings for the weekend before the attacks? And is a coincidence that, just like Florida in 2000, a Bush brother was involved, deeply involved, in an attack on American democracy?

A rescue worker was accompanying an FBI team and told the media that he was there when both 'black boxes' were recovered from one of the towers. They were quickly taken away and then the finding was denied. This was printed a day or two after the attacks and never seen again. What happened to the story? Quashed in the name of National Security? This is the only aircraft incident in history where the black boxes not only were not publicly found, there wasn't even a specific search for them.

Does it at all stretch your credibility that a passport found on the street - unburned, intact, legible, with picture - was Mohamed Atta's, the purported leader of this conspiracy? Don't you keep your passport in your pocket? So this passport magically left Atta's pocket, made it's way out of an exploding aircraft, through the fire in the building, and then fluttered down all those floors through all that debris to lie pristine on the sidewalk to be conveniently found by an FBI agent? Buy any bridges lately? Ask any LEO what "throw down evidence" is. This sure looks like a throw down.

And what was the rush to get the site cleared and to do no forensic examinations of the debris? Was someone afraid of what would be found? The biggest crime against Americans in the history of the nation and there was NO forensic investigation? Why?

And it it was our own leadership who attacked us, just how could they hope to get away with it? Easy! First you clamp down on information in the name of national security. This couldn't happen in a nation with a truly free press, but we no longer had a free press. We have entertainment media. Do this for long enough and whatever story you put out becomes the truth. Remember that Americans simply have no historical memory. We have the attention span that the media programmed us to have.

Those who pooh-pooh conspiracy theories are denying history. Conspiracies have been a standard means of changing leadership throughout history. And remember that whether you believe in a plot by arab terrorists or a plot by insiders in our own government, you BELIEVE IN A CONSPIRACY THEORY!

Either way, what we need is an independent, non governmental investigation into what really happened.

We need the truth and as Americans we can take it, no matter how the truth comes out.

[0007]

32. How come we don't hear much of Michael Canavan?

 Michael Canavan must know a hell of a lot, and also I bet Mr. Canavan knows what happened to missing 911 tapes from the FAA that the controllers made during those hijacked flighs on 911.

Mike Canavan was a three star General and a former commander of Delta force who had just recently retired and taken over the job Director of Security FAA. Hmmmm


Anyone have a close up Michael Canavan.

[MervinFerd]

33. Is TOO "Same Shit Different Pile"

ALL your queries have been answered multiple times. Multiple places.

Your first was answered in the FAQ referenced in the original post.

The two towers were HIT BY AIRLINERS which did much structural damage and which started MUCH LARGER FIRES THAN WOULD NORMALLY OCCUR.

Most of your other questions are just silly.

[goforit]

45. Hmmm..... this scaring the shit outa you. Getting to close?

You know those Fox News tactics of disinformation isn't
working anymore. The ratings show that even the repuglicans
aren't even buying your type of bullshit anymore.

[heliarc]

51. And I keep asking about 7 WTC...

and no one has a good answer for me... Lot's of good reasons to blow that up too... CIA offices, Command Response Central, Office of the Mayor, SEC offices... Hmmmm...

[RedSock]

39. CLOSING the WTC????

Why did Marvin Bush - in charge of security for the buildings - close the buildings for the weekend before the attacks?

I lived in NYC from 1987 to 2005 -- and worked in WTC 1 from 1995 to 1998 -- and if both towers had been "closed for the weekend" it would have been HUGE NEWS!!

Can you find one news article that reported on these unprecedented closings? A night time photo of the darkened towers?

Just one article from one of the daily papers: Times, Post, Daily News, Newsday, an afternoon rag called PM. Or one of the weeklies: Village Voice, New York Press, New York Observer.

...

(Also, I believe you are incorrect in describing Marvin's involvement in the security company.)

[heliarc]

53. Wikipedia lists Marvin Bush

As being on the board until June of 2000, Stratasec is the company... Kroll also provided services. Doesn't prove anyone's point, but its good to have real information instead of just mouthing off at each other. The information is also linked to a Washington Post article about Bertha Champagne who worked for Marvin Bush... She died when she was crushed under her own car while alone in her driveway... hmmmm.

[heliarc]

56. There have been numerous first hand accounts in interviews...

Some have been listed on DU... Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x10267

Most infamous are statements by one Scott Forbes who works for Fiduciary Trust and mentioned power down procedures the weekend previous:

www.nogw.com/download/2005_interview-with-scott-forbes.pdf

[RedSock]

59. first hand accounts

Numerous?

Your first link talks about a lessening of security, but has nothing to say about a "closing" of both towers.

Even Forbes doesn't say that-- he says half of WTC 2. He never mentions WTC 1.

Where do you get the idea that WTC 1 was "closed"?

And besides Forbes, who else is there?

I asked questions about the alleged "power down" here, but have received nothing of substance.

I am not arguing for or against demolition. I am asking for actual evidence of the alleged "power down".

A picture or a newspaper article would be great. One person's statement is not solid evidence.

[John Q. Citizen]

63. William Rodriguez also said there was a powerdown, so that's two

people.

[heliarc]

65. Sure

I just thought i'd actually reference something. There hasn't been much of that on this thread.

[JackRiddler]

62. This Marvin thing...

It seems to have pushed a lot of people over the edge.

Marvin Bush was a director until 2000 and part owner of a company, Securacom (later Stratesec), which over a period of several years ending in 2000 had a total of about $8 million in consulting contracts on behalf of World Trade Center security. This means M. or others at Securacom/Stratesec may have been privy to information about security at the complex that could have been useful for the purposes of infiltration or sabotage.

Or not.

Here is the original, well-researched story by Margie Burns, archived at Physics911.org. It lists every transaction Securacom/Stratesec ever had involving the WTC, Dulles Airport, or United Airlines (not a very impressive list).

http://physics911.ca/Burns:_Security,_Secrecy,_and_a_Bush_Brother

Securacom/Stratesec was publicly traded and de-listed in 2002.

For some unfathomable reason, this interesting story has mutated into a series of vast exaggerations and fabrications (well okay, for the very fathomable reason that some people want their wishful thinking delivered to them giftwrapped as a smoking gun). According to various versions, none of them backed by any citations to the original article, M. Bush was the director of WTC security (my God! A Bush actually working? What will the other rich folk say). Or Securacom was "the" contractor for WTC security (as opposed to the Port Authority Police?). Or M. Bush personally planned the bombing, ordered the alleged power-down (or even a shut-down of the whole complex - not bad), ordered the bomb-sniffing dogs away from the complex, etc. etc. Did he shoot John O'Neil? I'm waiting for that one. None of this stuff is true, all of it obviously fabricated.

And the sick part is, yes, there may well be a Marvin Bush/Securacom connection to 9/11, since the firm would have had access to the security systems at the complex.

This is another example of the sloppy and unnecessary thinking entertained by many 9/11 skeptics, in turn creating the openings for the OCT crowd to cherry-pick the lame stuff and avoid the real evidence.

[dailykoff]

64. You're right about that.

It's what pushed me. But I wouldn't take it so lightly. In corrupt corporation land official exits have a way of being illusory.

Just ask Halliburton. :)

[mp3hound]

61. Where to start?

Why are these two buildings the only steel tower buildings in the history of architecture to be destroyed by fire? There HAVE been other fires.

The towers were not destroyed by fire alone, but by large jetliners crashing into them at high speed wreaking havoc with the structures, spreading thousands of gallons of jet fuel around to fuel subsequent fires, and ultimately the combination of structural damage and fire caused the failures of the buildings.

It would be more relevant from a statistical point of view to ask "how many 110 storey buildings have ever survived after being hit at high speed by large jetliners bearing thousands of gallons of fuel?"

Why did Marvin Bush - in charge of security for the buildings - close the buildings for the weekend before the attacks? And is a coincidence that, just like Florida in 2000, a Bush brother was involved, deeply involved, in an attack on American democracy?

Marvin Bush was not in charge of security for the buildings and the buildings were not closed for the weekend before the attacks. Those are myths propogated by conspiracy theory websites.

A rescue worker was accompanying an FBI team and told the media that he was there when both 'black boxes' were recovered from one of the towers. They were quickly taken away and then the finding was denied. This was printed a day or two after the attacks and never seen again. What happened to the story? Quashed in the name of National Security? This is the only aircraft incident in history where the black boxes not only were not publicly found, there wasn't even a specific search for them.

I have never seen any evidence whatsoever that that story is true. It sounds like a classic "urban legend" with no basis in fact. If you have evidence to support it, please provide it.

Does it at all stretch your credibility that a passport found on the street - unburned, intact, legible, with picture - was Mohamed Atta's, the purported leader of this conspiracy? Don't you keep your passport in your pocket? So this passport magically left Atta's pocket, made it's way out of an exploding aircraft, through the fire in the building, and then fluttered down all those floors through all that debris to lie pristine on the sidewalk to be conveniently found by an FBI agent? Buy any bridges lately? Ask any LEO what "throw down evidence" is. This sure looks like a throw down.

Take a look at the numerous videos and photographs from that day and you will find that there were reams and reams of paper on the street, unscathed and unburnt despite the massive fires.

I don't know where other people keep their passports, but I always put mine in my carry on bag as it doesn't fit comfortably in a pocket. Why would you assume that everyone carries their passports in their pockets?

Oh, and you're wrong about it being Mohammed Atta's passport that was found amongst those thousands of other pieces of paper, by the way. It was not.

And what was the rush to get the site cleared and to do no forensic examinations of the debris? Was someone afraid of what would be found? The biggest crime against Americans in the history of the nation and there was NO forensic investigation? Why?

There was no "rush" to get the site cleared, beyond the obvious wish to locate and identify bodies and body parts after the search and rescue phase ended and it was obvious that there were not going to be any more survivors located. It took approximately eight months to sift through and remove the debris, which hardly sounds like a "rush", and it is not true that there was no forensic examination done. There most certainly was. The debris was shipped to and stored off site and was forensically examined in great detail by experts. Please, do a little bit of research before relying upon talking points spoon fed by conspiracy sites.

And it it was our own leadership who attacked us, just how could they hope to get away with it? Easy! First you clamp down on information in the name of national security. This couldn't happen in a nation with a truly free press, but we no longer had a free press. We have entertainment media. Do this for long enough and whatever story you put out becomes the truth. Remember that Americans simply have no historical memory. We have the attention span that the media programmed us to have.

Given that you are wrong about every point prior to this one, it follows that you are also wrong about the conclusions you arrive at based upon those points. You know, garbage in, garbage out.

Either way, what we need is an independent, non governmental investigation into what really happened.

We already know what happened. What we need to know is why it happened, and to that end, I agree with you that further investigation needs to be done. Unfortunately, the conspiracy theories tend to eschew rational discussion and, worse, give the shrub administration cover to avoid the questions.

We need the truth and as Americans we can take it, no matter how the truth comes out.

I agree.

[John Q. Citizen]

66. Hi mp3hound, and welcome to DU and

the 9/11 forum:hi:
Allow me to engage you in a rebuttal of sorts.

The towers were not destroyed by fire alone, but by large jetliners crashing into them at high speed wreaking havoc with the structures, spreading thousands of gallons of jet fuel around to fuel subsequent fires, and ultimately the combination of structural damage and fire caused the failures of the buildings.

It would be more relevant from a statistical point of view to ask "how many 110 story buildings have ever survived after being hit at high speed by large jetliners bearing thousands of gallons of fuel?"

NIST has no physical evidence to support the temperatures they claim would be necessary to cause a collapse in the Towers. No plane hit WTC#7.


Marvin Bush was not in charge of security for the buildings and the buildings were not closed for the weekend before the attacks. Those are myths propagated by conspiracy theory websites.
While you are correct that marvin bush was no longer on the board of the company with a security contract for the WTC, (ding ding ding) the company was very close to the bush family, in ownership and in management. See here: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm
and here for a longer more in depth article as to the great lengths the bush administration went to provide liability cover for the security company and it's parent corp.
http://physics911.ca/Burns:_Security,_Secrecy,_and_a_Bush_Brother
There are two sources for the reports that the building was partially powered down one the weekend before 9/11. One was William Rodriguez, the hero custodian who was also the last man out of the 1st tower that fell and Scott Forbes, you can listen to him being interviewed on the radio here:

http://www.alciada.net/dload.php?action=file&id=339
and you can read an interview here: http://www.nogw.com/download/2005_interview-with-scott-forbes.pdf


This is your response to the question of the black boxes reportedly found at ground zero.
I have never seen any evidence whatsoever that that story is true. It sounds like a classic "urban legend" with no basis in fact. If you have evidence to support it, please provide it.
this is not an urban legend. The report first appeared in the Philadelphia Daily News. Here's a link to the article. http://www.opednews.com/bunch_102804_blackboxes.htm
And here's a link to a later article from counter punch with new evidence about the WTC black boxes.
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff12202005.html
Your urban legend assumption is "officially" debunked. Now you can decide if you want to believe that our government wouldn't lie to us about the black boxes or that they would. There is evidence, however. that they may be doing just that.

Take a look at the numerous videos and photographs from that day and you will find that there were reams and reams of paper on the street, unscathed and unburnt despite the massive fires.
Yes, except how much of that paper on the streets was from the fire floors? And if, as you claim, the fire on the fire floors was "massive" why would the paper on those floors not burn? That isn't logical. The only way out of this logical chinese finger trap is if the fire and heat on the fire floors was muck less than is guesstimated by NIST. Even then, it seems a little strange that the passport was found unscathed after the suspected hijacker rode a plane into the tower. I suppose it's possible, yet not really very probable.

Oh, and you're wrong about it being Mohamed Atta's passport that was found among those thousands of other pieces of paper, by the way. It was not.
You are correct that it wasn't Atta's passport found on the ground outside ground zero. It was...another of the suspected hijackers. I forget who right now. Ding Ding ding, one unambiguously right answer, one half right answer, mp3hound.

There was no "rush" to get the site cleared, beyond the obvious wish to locate and identify bodies and body parts after the search and rescue phase ended and it was obvious that there were not going to be any more survivors located. It took approximately eight months to sift through and remove the debris, which hardly sounds like a "rush", and it is not true that there was no forensic examination done. There most certainly was. The debris was shipped to and stored off site and was forensically examined in great detail by experts. Please, do a little bit of research before relying upon talking points spoon fed by conspiracy sites.

I do know that the investigation was muddled and unclear from the get go. Agencies designated to investigate various aspects couldn't get access to the debris to conduct their inquiries. This from the NY Times:

"The most intense criticism from both Republican and Democratic House members centered on the confusion over just who is overseeing the investigation - the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the National Institute of Standards and Technology or the American Society of Civil Engineers.

At one point, Representative Anthony D. Weiner, a Democrat from New York City, asked for the official in charge to raise his hand, and two men, and then three appeared to do so. "We have very serious problems here," added Representative John B. Larson, a Connecticut Democrat.

The lack of clear authority has had unfortunate consequences, the House members said. The Giuliani administration started to send World Trade Center steel off to recycling yards before investigators could examine it to determine whether it might hold crucial clues as to why the buildings fell. The full investigative team set up by FEMA was not allowed to enter ground zero to collect other potentially critical evidence in the weeks after the attack, and it did not get a copy of the World Trade Center blueprints until early January, a delay House members found infuriating.

"The delay in the receipt of the plans did somewhat hinder the team's ability to confirm their understanding of the buildings," said Dr. W. Gene Corley, a structural engineer leading the investigative committee organized by FEMA"

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/groundzero/nyt_mismanagementmuddle.html
ANd this from the Daily news, where the first sentence mentions "..the hasty recycling of steel.."

Daily News 3/7/2002

WTC Probe Ills Bared By PAUL H.B. SHIN Daily News Staff Writer

WASHINGTON

An inquiry into exactly what caused the twin towers to collapse after they were hit by hijacked jetliners may have been undermined by the hasty recycling of steel wreckage that could hold vital clues, experts told Congress yesterday.

About 80% of the structural steel from the World Trade Center was scrapped without being examined by even one fire expert, mostly because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage as evidence, the experts said.

... "The lack of significant amounts of steel for examination will make it difficult, if not impossible, to make a definitive statement as to the specific cause and chronology of the collapse," said Glenn Corbett, a fire science expert from John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan who testified before a House Science Committee inquiry into the collapse and the ensuing investigation.

"The current World Trade Center disaster inquiry has exposed a gaping hole in the way that we investigate disasters," he said.
http://www.questionsquestions.net/documents2/wtc_obstruction.html

And it it was our own leadership who attacked us,...
Given that you are wrong about every point prior to this one, it follows that you are also wrong about the conclusions you arrive at based upon those points. You know, garbage in, garbage out.
Your garbage in and out apparently isn't of the same quality as the OP you responded to? You have been shown to be wrong about a number of your assumptions, mp3hound

Either way, what we need is an independent, non governmental investigation into what really happened.


We already know what happened. What we need to know is why it happened, and to that end, I agree with you that further investigation needs to be done. Unfortunately, the conspiracy theories tend to eschew rational discussion and, worse, give the shrub administration cover to avoid the questions.
Some people are under the impression that they know what happened, but how can we when the officials charged with the 9/11 Commission report were lied to by the Pentagon, NORAD, The FAA, and obstructed all along the way by the White House? NIST doesn't have a shred of physical evidence that supports their hypothesis for why the towers collapsed, and they haven't even yet released anything about WTC#7. There is tons of photos, reports, tapes, video still locked up. We don't know what happened or why it happened.

ANd why does questioning the Official Conspiracy Theory, or suggesting that some in our government may have had a part in 9/11 give the Neocons cover? I've heard this hypothesis before, yet I still don't understand how that works. Perhaps you would fill me in on how this works? Did asking questions about the Kennedy Assassination let the Warren Commission off the hook? Did suspecting verbally that Nixon was complicit in Watergate allow him the cover to avoid questions? Did writing about the fishy goings on with Iran Contra allow Reagan cover to avoid answering questions? Not that I can see in any of the cases I mentioned. In fact, the public questions, conspiracy theories, and the public pressure are about the only things that shed any light on those cases. If I'm wrong please point out why. Just tell me how this works. Thanks.




We need the truth and as Americans we can take it, no matter how the truth comes out.
I agree.

I agree, and we all agree. Good!


(edited for formating, spelling and clarity)

[Rex]

28. '...planting thousands of pounds of explosives in busy office towers.'

Sounds like someone is getting nervous. Now why would that be?

[Pastiche423]

36. Because their house of cards

is finally beginning to crumble right before a very important election?

While it's true that some people in this country live and breathe every word The Decider & cabal state as fact, more and more scholarly people have begun to seriously question the OCT.

IMO, the dumbing down of American has not succeeded to the degree that TPTB had hope and betted on.

[screembloodymurder]

52. I've read that the reinforcing steel had a special coating

and was wired to allow for future demolition.

[heliarc]

58. Ok...

Where did you read that? And could you provide a credible link? I'm not going to name call, but its just this kind of baseless assertion that gets a lot of us flamed. Otherwise I'm going to start talking about the Leprechauns that made the special coating out of their pots of gold.